The Stephen Desper Thread

[Stephen W. Desper]

"Loop De Loop" was originally on "Landlocked" which was rejected by Warners.  The early version I've heard sounds like a final mix to me.

There was never a "Landlocked" album rejected by Warner:
http://www.btinternet.com/~bellagio/unreleased.html

The name "Landlocked" is a name you fans have created.  We never called it that.  I have the so-called, "Landlocked" LP in my collection.  It is called "Second Warner LP"  on the cover and disc label. It was never pressed, but remains as a one-of-a-kind acetate. The songs and running order is well documented.  Loop-de-Loop was mixed and finished at that time. ~swd

[Jeff Mason]

Stephen --

To clarify, there is a tape reel labeled "LAST CAPITOL ALBUM" that is NOT 20/20 but an ancestor of Sunflower (if it ever was a real album, which is debatable).  That is where the duo tracks are, including the Cotton Fields single (not the 20/20 version) and the Lord's Prayer, neither of which were on 20/20.

Is it in my handwriting?  

No, actually it was this:

Cotton Fields and The Lord's Prayer were both released in true stereophonic sound on 20/20.  

So I assume you didn't know about the other reel, since neither of the versions in question were released on 20/20 (the version of Cotton Fields in question is Al's and the 20/20 version is Brian's)

 

[Alan Boyd]

Incidentally- there's no indication that the reel labeled as THE LAST CAPITOL ALBUM was ever delivered to Capitol.. or was even mastered, for that matter.  The safety copy appears to be just that - a reference copy for listening purposes only.  That project may have been shelved when Capitol released the LIVE IN LONDON LP.

[Stephen W. Desper]

Stephen --

To clarify, there is a tape reel labeled "LAST CAPITOL ALBUM" that is NOT 20/20 but an ancestor of Sunflower (if it ever was a real album, which is debatable).  That is where the duo tracks are, including the Cotton Fields single (not the 20/20 version) and the Lord's Prayer, neither of which were on 20/20.

Is it in my handwriting?  

No, actually it was this:

Cotton Fields and The Lord's Prayer were both released in true stereophonic sound on 20/20.  

So I assume you didn't know about the other reel, since neither of the versions in question were released on 20/20 (the version of Cotton Fields in question is Al's and the 20/20 version is Brian's)

 

I think only Alan Jardine can keep track of all the versions he did of that song.  There must be at least eight that were started and five that made it to having BG's added, then maybe three made it to mixdown and all were eventually rejected by Alan J. until the finished version in '98 -- but even today he wants to re-call or re-due something or other on the track. This comes up from time to time in converstation. That is Alan's nature.  ~swd

PS  The single version may be an earlier variation or mix whereas the LP version had some tracks replaced. You just can't hear the difference in performance but Alan can.  Spectulation on my part.  ~swd

[c-man]

"Loop De Loop" was originally on "Landlocked" which was rejected by Warners.  The early version I've heard sounds like a final mix to me.  So Jack Rieley could easily be telling the truth here.  It just seems way beyond ridiculous to say you wouldn't believe a single thing Jack Rieley says.  Why would he be lying?  Do you think he's getting paid by Brian, and maybe Dennis' and Carl's heirs to say some bad things about Mike Love and Al Jardine?  I happen to totally love "Loop De Loop", too, and think Jack Rieley was crazy not to like the song.  But that doesn't mean I don't believe what the guy has to say.

        Love and merci,   Dan Lega

I did not say "I don't believe a single thing Jack Rieley says"...what I said was "I wouldn't rustanything he says"...which means, just because he says it, doesn't mean I'm going to take it as gospel.  Because, as Steve pointed out, Rieley has his "perspective", which in my opinion has been colored by a bias against the Mike-Alan-Bruce axis.  I haven't seen any evidence that "Loop" (or the entire so-called "Landlocked", aka "Second Warner Bros. Album"), was actually submitted to Warners.  Last I heard, the general consensus was that it was a reel of completed or nearly-completed songs for consideration, but not an official album (despite what is written on the reel), and was never submitted for approval or rejection....and of course, Steve can and should correct me if I'm wrong here.  To my knowledge, everytime over the years that Al was asked about "Loop"'s release, he always replied that it wasn't finished....of course, he could've finished it rather quickly back then, but the point is, "Loop" doesn't show up on any of the proposed track lists for the first two Warner Bros. albums that I'm aware of...only the "Second Warner Bros. Album" reel, which from all indications, wasn't even that.  BTW, "Landlocked" is reported to have been the working title of the "Surf's Up" album, which became "Surf's Up" only when the inclusion of that pivotal song was secured, and also reportedly at the suggestion of Van Dyke Parks. 

BTW, I prefer the original 1969 mix of "Loop de Loop" also. 

C-Man

[petsite]

Sorry Stephen that my question wasn't as clearly worded as it should have been.

A reel marked as "Safety Copy Of The Last Capitol Album" resides in the BB tape vault.  The track listing is as follows:

1.  COTTON FIELDS single version - duophonic
2.  LOOP DE LOOP - pulled to "Second Warner Brothers Album" reel
3.  ALL I WANNA DO - pulled to "Sunflower" master reel
4.  GOT TO KNOW THE WOMAN - alternate mono mix
5.  WHEN GIRLS GET TOGETHER - backing track, no vocals
6.  BREAK AWAY
7.  SAN MIGUEL - pulled to "Second Warner Brothers Album" reel
8.  CELEBRATE THE NEWS
9.  DIERDRE - pulled to "Sunflower" master reel
10. THE LORD’S PRAYER - duophonic
11. FOREVER - pulled to "Sunflower" master reel

Since the date of either the assembly or the copying is marked as  June 19, 1970 on the tape box, I was wondering if

     A.) This was something you assembled with the group for release.
     B.) Considering the fact that duophonic mixes of Cottonfields and The Lord's Prayer are used, might their have been
           some Capitol engineers involved?

Thanks again. Sorry about the vaugeness of my original post.

Bob Flory

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

I'm pretty sure both of those questions were answered.  Above, Steve says he never assembled anything like that for release and that he certainly didn't apply duophonic processing to the mono mixes.

[Stephen W. Desper]

Comment to C-Man -- I haven't seen any evidence that "Loop" (or the entire so-called "Landlocked", aka "Second Warner Bros. Album"), was actually submitted to Warners.  Last I heard, the general consensus was that it was a reel of completed or nearly-completed songs for consideration, but not an official album (despite what is written on the reel), and was never submitted for approval or rejection....and of course, Steve can and should correct me if I'm wrong here.  Sorry, you have been incorrectly informed.  Record executives do not usually listen to reels of tape.  They listen to LP's in their offices. They don't get into production nuances. They relate to saleable product, i.e., LP records. They want to hear the finished product only. Such was the case with Warner executives especially Mo Ostin, Warner Bros. president.  The group took the finished Warner album over to Mo Ostin's office on an acetate (for all I know the very one in my collection) and sat there as he listened. He told them he was concerned that the songs were too weak. He admonished them that they could do better and wanted them to return to the studio and put their collective nose to the grindstone.  I remember vividly how they, The Beach Boys, were when coming back to the studio after being wrung out by none other than Mo Ostin.  That was the turning point -- the do or die -- point for them.  They were in debt, their leader sick in his head, months into their two-albums-per-18 month contract with W7, concert attendends down and each facing personal financial problems. You bet Warner heard what was to be their big offering under contract. You bet it was submitted -- and rejected, big time.  To my knowledge, everytime over the years that Al was asked about "Loop"'s release, he always replied that it wasn't finished....of course, he could've finished it rather quickly back then, WAIT A MINUTE here!!  Who the hell are you to tell Alan Jardine that "he could have finished his song just like that?"  I think that is a very bad judgement call for you to make.  but the point is, "Loop" doesn't show up on any of the proposed track lists for the first two Warner Bros. albums that I'm aware of...only the "Second Warner Bros. Album" reel, which from all indications, wasn't even that. What Crap!!  BTW, "Landlocked" is reported to have been the working title of the "Surf's Up" album, which became "Surf's Up" only when the inclusion of that pivotal song was secured, and also reportedly at the suggestion of Van Dyke Parks.  Wrong again. The reports are just plain WRONG!  VDP had little if anything to do with the album of Surf's Up. Look at the dates of the artwork for the album cover and insert. Those concepts predate all this nonsense. ~swd 

BTW, I prefer the original 1969 mix of "Loop de Loop" also. 

C-Man

[Jeff Mason]

Something about this all hit me on the way home.  Stephen, you were making stereophonic masterpieces left and right in 1969, and I have to think that mono was nowhere in your line of thinking.  However, the single version of Cotton Fields produced by Al was released only as a mono single with duophonic versions sneaking up left and right.  It did not get a true stereo release until Mark Linett mixed it into stereo for the Hawthorne CA release.  Maybe you have answered this, and if so forgive the asking again -- but why was the single mono only and why wasn't there a true stereo mix made in 1969?  After all, Brian's version was earlier and it was true stereo.  Did you make a mix that got lost or unused?

[c-man]

Comment to C-Man -- I haven't seen any evidence that "Loop" (or the entire so-called "Landlocked", aka "Second Warner Bros. Album"), was actually submitted to Warners.  Last I heard, the general consensus was that it was a reel of completed or nearly-completed songs for consideration, but not an official album (despite what is written on the reel), and was never submitted for approval or rejection....and of course, Steve can and should correct me if I'm wrong here.  Sorry, you have been incorrectly informed.  Record executives do not usually listen to reels of tape.  They listen to LP's in their offices. They don't get into production nuances. They relate to saleable product, i.e., LP records. They want to hear the finished product only. Such was the case with Warner executives especially Mo Ostin, Warner Bros. president.  The group took the finished Warner album over to Mo Ostin's office on an acetate (for all I know the very one in my collection) and sat there as he listened. He told them he was concerned that the songs were too weak. He admonished them that they could do better and wanted them to return to the studio and put their collective nose to the grindstone.  I remember vividly how they, The Beach Boys, were when coming back to the studio after being wrung out by none other than Mo Ostin.  That was the turning point -- the do or die -- point for them.  They were in debt, their leader sick in his head, months into their two-albums-per-18 month contract with W7, concert attendends down and each facing personal financial problems. You bet Warner heard what was to be their big offering under contract. You bet it was submitted -- and rejected, big time.  To my knowledge, everytime over the years that Al was asked about "Loop"'s release, he always replied that it wasn't finished....of course, he could've finished it rather quickly back then, WAIT A MINUTE here!!  Who the hell are you to tell Alan Jardine that "he could have finished his song just like that?"  I think that is a very bad judgement call for you to make.  but the point is, "Loop" doesn't show up on any of the proposed track lists for the first two Warner Bros. albums that I'm aware of...only the "Second Warner Bros. Album" reel, which from all indications, wasn't even that. What Crap!!  BTW, "Landlocked" is reported to have been the working title of the "Surf's Up" album, which became "Surf's Up" only when the inclusion of that pivotal song was secured, and also reportedly at the suggestion of Van Dyke Parks.  Wrong again. The reports are just plain WRONG!  VDP had little if anything to do with the album of Surf's Up. Look at the dates of the artwork for the album cover and insert. Those concepts predate all this nonsense. ~swd 

BTW, I prefer the original 1969 mix of "Loop de Loop" also. 

C-Man

My apologies.  I stand corrected.

[Stephen W. Desper]

Something about this all hit me on the way home.  Stephen, you were making stereophonic masterpieces left and right in 1969, and I have to think that mono was nowhere in your line of thinking.  However, the single version of Cotton Fields produced by Al was released only as a mono single with duophonic versions sneaking up left and right.  It did not get a true stereo release until Mark Linett mixed it into stereo for the Hawthorne CA release.  Maybe you have answered this, and if so forgive the asking again -- but why was the single mono only and why wasn't there a true stereo mix made in 1969?  After all, Brian's version was earlier and it was true stereo.  Did you make a mix that got lost or unused?

I feel like I'm in the Twilight Zone or something.  I DID mix and it WAS released in true stereophonic sound -- that is, amplitude left and right panning and phase related dual-channel information . . . NOT Duophonic.  I am certainly not going to sit here and be told that I did not mix the song in stereo and that Mark Linett was the first to do it.  First of all that is not his style, to redo something for the sake of redoing it.  He remains true to the original, and the original mix I did is stereo. If you listen to the LP or the CD you can hear that!  I'm not that bad an engineer so as to have my stereo mixes sound like fake stereo.  So to say that, "It did not get a true stereo release until Mark Linett mixed it into stereo for the Hawthorne CA release." just shows me that some people should listen to the music rather than read incorrect history books or CD jackets.   ~swd

[Jeff Mason]

Stephen --

No offense, but if you could point me to the place where a true stereo mix was ever released in 1969/70, I would be much obliged.  Every version I have heard is mono or duo, and this is from the liners from Hawthorne CA: 

"This version of Cotton Fields is presented here for the first time in true stereo".

That is a quote from Alan Boyd, who frequents this board.  The quote is regarding the single mix as done by Al 8/15/69 according to the book.  So I am not trying to be difficult -- I am simply unaware that any mix made by you was ever released in stereo.  You may well have done one but it never got released that I can find.  And if the version on Hawthorne was done by you and not Mark Linett, you got no credit for it.  So I am just trying to figure out what's going on here, because someone's facts are wrong on this thread, and it's at the level of "those who know".  I am just a peon fan who's confused....

EDIT -- this is the mixing credit for Hawthorne:  Engineered and Mixed by Mark Linett except the Little Girl I Once Knew (alternate) mixed by Chuck Britz.  You are listed as original engineer but the credit implies that Mark remixed Cotton Fields.

EDIT 2 -- Someone has suggested to me that perhaps Stephen, you are thinking of the mix on the 20/20 album produced by Brian?  And that you might not know that there are two released versions that are totally different?  The single version of Cotton Fields was produced by Al and recorded at Sunset Sound, and possibly you weren't the engineer for that one and are unaware of its existence?  Just a possible thought.  I am so confused....   

[guitarfool2002]

  Because, as Steve pointed out, Rieley has his "perspective", which in my opinion has been colored by a bias against the Mike-Alan-Bruce axis. 

That axis was *really* helpful to Al in the long run, wasn't it?

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

Jeff, I seem to recall that other 45s around the end of the decade were still mono mixes, due to demand probably.  I think Friends/Little Bird had single mono mixes done, Do it Again, Bluebirds, perhaps even Breakaway.  So the Cotton Fields 45 would have just been the last 45 that was exclusively mono before the stereo age truly took over.

Since Cottonfields was already on 20/20, it was probably more a matter of not having an avenue to put out the stereo version.

[Jeff Mason]

Jeff, I seem to recall that other 45s around the end of the decade were still mono mixes, due to demand probably.  I think Friends/Little Bird had single mono mixes done, Do it Again, Bluebirds, perhaps even Breakaway.  So the Cotton Fields 45 would have just been the last 45 that was exclusively mono before the stereo age truly took over.

Since Cottonfields was already on 20/20, it was probably more a matter of not having an avenue to put out the stereo version.

What about the original UK copy of Sunflower that had a duo version?  Comps over the years?  Why not use a Desper mix (or credit him if you did) on Hawthorne?  This just isn't making sense....

[Alan Boyd]

Actually, we're talking aboput two completely different versions of Cotton Fields here, which may be the source of some confusion.

The first version was produced by Brian and Alan (according to the sleeve notes) and mixed in stereo by Steve.  This was done in late 1968, and this version of COTTON FIELDS was the first song on side two of the 20/20 album.

Some months later in August of 1969 (several months after 20/20 was released) Al took the touring band - and Red Rhodes - into Sunset Sound, where they laid down a 16 track master on a brand new basic track, officially produced by Al, which was faster, a little rougher, a little more rowdy than the quieter arrangement that Brian had come up with a year earlier.  Later, the 16 tracks were reduced down to a new 8 track tape, and vocals and additional overdubs were added.  Track sheets indicate these may have been done at Wally Heider.

On or around 9/30/1969, this new recording was mixed to mono at Capitol, "8 to 1 Remix" and three mono mixes were left at Capitol, ostensibly for release as The Beach Boys' new (and/or last) single for Capitol Records.  One of the three was chosen by somebody, and the song was eventually released as a single in 1970 and it immediately became a smash hit everywhere but here at home.

(That original 1/4" master with three mono mixes of the song is still at Capitol, by the way... the unused mixes include a cute "count-in" by little Matt Jardine)

Otherwise, this second version of COTTON FIELDS was never intended to be included on an album, although EMI - which had distribution rights in Europe for the first two Brother Records albums on their Stateside label - saw fit to add the song to their initial release of SUNFLOWER, and somebody at Stateside took a mono single master, made it duophonic (yecch) and it appeared as the first song on side one of the European Stateside Records SUNFLOWER.

We've never located a vintage stereo mix of this second version of COTTON FIELDS, either in Capitol's vaults or The Beach Boys' collection.  But the production and vocals were so good on that record that when it came time to do HAWTHORNE we figured this would be a chance for folks to hear the song in a "new light" and so Mark went back to the final single version 8 track and the result is there for all to hear...

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

Would have have been the first Beach Boys track tracked directly to 16-track? 

[Stephen W. Desper]

Thanks for the history ALAN.  I'm glad we are now out to the Twilight Zone. Actually I've heard all the mixes over at Red Barn -- if you are looking for them they're in that back tape room with the amplifier racks and also in the closet under the stairway in the coffee lounge.  I think the poster forgot to quote the album correctly unless it says "first time in stereo." That would be incorrect for the song.  For that version yes, but not for the song.  I mean, just listen.  ~swd  

[RobtheNobleSurfer]

Thank you Alan for clearing this up.

[Jeff Mason]

Stephen, I knew all along that the 20/20 version was in stereo.  I thought I had made my intent clear by saying "single version".  If I have caused confusion I duly apologize.  I intended to be clear and respectful and I hope that much at least was apparent.

[Stephen W. Desper]

Stephen, I knew all along that the 20/20 version was in stereo.  I thought I had made my intent clear by saying "single version".  If I have caused confusion I duly apologize.  I intended to be clear and respectful and I hope that much at least was apparent.

No you didn't cause confusion except when you or someone said it was "the first time" in stereo.  That caused me confusion.  It was a nice little bit of conversation ----- and we got Mr. Boyd to comment.

HI ALAN !!  ~swd

PS  Alan J. thought that mixing in mono would give a stronger sound to the 45 single.  From Alan Boyd's comments you can see that there are five finished versions of this song and there are more unfinished versions too.  Even today, Alan Jardine is thinking of doing Cottonfields again in yet another version.  It's some kind of obsession he has. He even ran it by me on guitar -- as a folk song, no less.  ~swd

[I. Spaceman]

Stephen, it's been reported in several places that the so-called "Landlocked" (I know that's an after-the-fact attribution) 12-song reel was merely a collection of recent recordings for review, not an intended release in that form and order. That's how Jack Rieley referred to it, and how Carl referred to it when he played three tracks from it on American radio.
Are you saying, definitively, that the acetate that starts with Loop De Loop and ends with Lookin' At Tomorrow was prepared for release by you, Carl and the BB's?
I find there to be some confusion in this thread between the first 2 assembled and rejected lineups of Sunflower and the "2nd Reprise" reel.

[Stephen W. Desper]

Stephen, it's been reported in several places that the so-called "Landlocked" (I know that's an after-the-fact attribution) 12-song reel was merely a collection of recent recordings for review, not an intended release in that form and order. That's how Jack Rieley referred to it, and how Carl referred to it when he played three tracks from it on American radio.
Are you saying, definitively, that the acetate that starts with Loop De Loop and ends with Lookin' At Tomorrow was prepared for release by you, Carl and the BB's?
I find there to be some confusion in this thread between the first 2 assembled and rejected lineups of Sunflower and the "2nd Reprise" reel.

I said what I know from my involvment. The group labored over the tune order and it was decided that the cut order on the acetate was the offering. The issue was not the order. The issue was the strength of the songs. Mo thought they could do better for the label.  He was disappointed in the group and would not accept their work at that time. Changing the tune order was not the solution.  Better songs and production was what he demanded.  Carl may have softened what was otherwise a rather powerful putdown by a rather powerful figure in the recording arts. When they went to W7 the contract for the first album was overdue and their advances were overdrawn.  It was not a work-in-progress review. Mo Ostin has better things to do with his time than to micro-manage a surfing band.  The bottom line is -- and the Beach Boys know that -- the higher power in this game is the buying public.  NOT the listening public; the buying public is king.  The performer must depend on the distributor (the record company) to reach the buying public.  No buy, no income -- simple as that.  Warner's was not, nor could not, re-cycle Beach Boy music.  They bought the band and new, as yet recorded, material. Advances for that material were already passing from the record company into the pockets of the group -- and Mo Ostin had every right to demand the very best from this new (to Warner's) group. They went feeling confident about their album and came back with their tails between their legs.  Why?  Because without the record company they could not reach the buying public. Serious stuff!!  Now that's how it seemed to happen from my perspective which I think is fairly close to the source. When Carl told me how the meeting when down, he did go out of his way to tell me that Mo thought the recording was first-class as was the production value.  It was that he thought the public acceptance of what he heard would not yield the record sales he wanted.  "Go back and do better," he said.  How this was all told to the fan base or general public by the band members or others is another story.  If it was me I'd downplay the whole thing too. But just because you read that so and so said this and that does not mean it is the truth.  After all, we all read that there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq at one time, too. I don't mean to rewrite history here, just relate history as I experienced it. ~swd       

[I. Spaceman]

OK, I understand what you're saying. Thanks for the info.

[Alan Boyd]

Hi Steve!!