"I Was Made to Love Her" on Wild Honey and Carol Kaye's claims

[b00ts]

It is widely known that Carol Kaye claimed credit for many of James Jamerson's Motown bass lines. This was in the 1990s, long after Jamerson was gone, and the record keeping at Motown was shoddy. The company did not give any credit to sidemen back then.

According to most of the evidence, she did not play on the Motown sessions she claimed to play on, but she seemed convinced that she had. "I Was Made to Love Her" is one such tune.

The whole story is here, if you scroll down about halfway. (http://www.bassland.net/jamerson.html)

I am wondering if, in the case of "I Was Made to Love Her," she played on the Wild Honey session and misremembered it as the Motown/Stevie Wonder session.

Thoughts? AGD?

[joshferrell]

too me the bass lines sound similar to both ,in fact that was the first thing that stuck out for me and I heard the BB version before Stevies version..

[Andrew G. Doe]

It is widely known that Carol Kaye claimed credit for many of James Jamerson's Motown bass lines. This was in the 1990s, long after Jamerson was gone, and the record keeping at Motown was shoddy. The company did not give any credit to sidemen back then.

According to most of the evidence, she did not play on the Motown sessions she claimed to play on, but she seemed convinced that she had. "I Was Made to Love Her" is one such tune.

The whole story is here, if you scroll down about halfway. (http://www.bassland.net/jamerson.html)

I am wondering if, in the case of "I Was Made to Love Her," she played on the Wild Honey session and misremembered it as the Motown/Stevie Wonder session.

Thoughts? AGD?

Nothing I could say about her that you'd want to read. Horrible woman, and a liar to boot.

[SMiLE Brian]

I don't understand why she has to lie about what she played on, Carol actually has a highly impressive resume of songs she played on.

[Mr. Cohen]

Nothing I could say about her that you'd want to read. Horrible woman, and a liar to boot.

A horrible woman? What did she do? Distort BBs history? If she did...

[b00ts]

too me the bass lines sound similar to both ,in fact that was the first thing that stuck out for me and I heard the BB version before Stevies version..

Yes, absolutely, she played Jamerson's baseline to a "T."

[adamghost]

When I did the Wrecking Crew sessions five years ago, I swear half of the conversation among the old-timers was about Carole Kaye.  And it wasn't touchy-feely nice stuff; they seemed to have some, um, unresolved issues.  Not going to get into what was said, other than to say that claiming improper credit seemed to be one of the big bones of contention.

I've only personally encountered her once, when we were on a bill together, and she was nice enough.  

After my unpleasant experience with the Standells, I can only say that issues that stay unresolved for 40 or 50 years only seem to magnify and warp peoples' perspectives and memories, not to mention their personalities.  What started out as a little white lie or an annoyance can harden into stone over decades.

[hypehat]

I don't understand why she has to lie about what she played on, Carol actually has a highly impressive resume of songs she played on.

Not the vast majority of Good Vibrations though, as is commonly assumed! That fact blew my mind not so long ago....

[Wrightfan]

I'll never understand why someone who legit played on some great songs would try to make herself even more famous by lying.

Could it be that she didn't like Jamerson?

[Ebb and Flow]

It just seems like she hates being questioned by anyone, even when presented with documentation that proves her memory is incorrect.  I don't think she intentionally meant to steal credit from others (nearly all of the incorrect claims she's made are based on half-truths: she played rhythm guitar on a cover of Surfin' USA...but not the original, she played bass on The BB's version of IWMTLH, etc.) but by sticking to her stories she effectively has stolen credit.  The excessive moderation on her website and the ousting of anyone who says otherwise is also pretty unsettling.

[debonbon]

I remember when she would post on the Cabin Essence board (if memory serves me correct), every post of hers would include a huge list of sessions that she played on as part of her argument. Never understood why she would post it over and over again. She was quite rude to a few posters there and left when some of us called her on it.

[Andrew G. Doe]

OK, one last time, the cause of my personal beef with Kaye: on the Bloo, back in 2000, someone asked her what Ray Pohlman played an the "GOK" session, and she flatly stated she wasn't there. Which surprised the hell out of several posters as...

1. He's on the AFM contract...
2. Brian refers to him by name on the tapes.

I politely pointed this out, and she threw a fit, said she was there and we weren't, accused me of stealing AFM sheets and wailed that she'd get her pal Russ Wapensky who was writing a book about post-war LA sessions to check his files and prove her right. I pointed out, still politely (yeah, I've changed) that as he would be reading the exact same contract as I was (and quoted the reference #), that would be exceedingly unlikely, whereupon she flounced off to her own board (after sending me some increasingly unpleasant emails - she really typed "hahaha" FFS) and posted this, knowing that as I was barred from her forum, I couldn't reply (comments in italics are mine):

“This purported self-appointed "expert" is actually a real buddy-friend of someone (used car dealer-writer) that Brian Wilson recently sued for stealing/purloining masters [Brad Elliott, who was not a 'close buddy-friend', whatever that is]....this current phony posting on one board or more is posing as an "expert" on the Beach Boys' stuff who lives in England and is a bully to a lot of fans, setting himself up as some sort of "god" to history.... another one of those. Haha, never ceases to amaze me about these types of guys living on their lies and subterfuge of posing as a guru of information that is totally false but is obsessed to pretend to be a vip....this is a bachelor baby-boomer who was in knee-pants when we were recording - lives with his elderly mother who takes care of him etc [low, really low].....I think some are getting wise to this poor guy tho', how badly he needs help.....we've got some like that over here in the USA too, the Internet helps them set up with their pure lies so they can "enchant" the masses for awhile...and it's not good for people like Brian to have these types mislead people either....They are really self-delusional guys who eventually get laughed at -- hard to believe that people actually do fall for their lies tho' for awhile, but that's because not much is known about our studio work...... more books are on the way to the printer soon. And there's a lot of films in the can wending their way on the air....Yes, he just can't stand to be "corrected" -- yet (and most are finding this out too) he makes outlandish claims which are all lies all the time....just a really bad guy imo. And yes he does have a website....this kind of person is harming the fan-club of Brian Wilson's...is the buddy of a person who Brian sued, and little by little he's being found out but does tend to bully whomever on BW and BB sites. Believe me, join the crowd of people who he attacks, I guess the truth is very threatening to him...like another fellow I know (hmmm.....probably more of them out there on the internet too). So easy to fool people on the internet which takes time to ferret out if it's lies or truth...I think he's really on his way out now tho'. Sad case.[Eleven years later, still here]”

Yeah, a nice, charming old lady... unless you point out what she says isn't correct. You just don't do that, because Kaye is ALWAYS 100% right, even when she's claiming credit for playing on a song recorded in a town she admits she's never visited. I could add something to what Adam said about how the Crew regard her... but you can work that out easily enough.

But remember, my 'phony' trade is 'pure lies' and 'outlandish claims'. But at least I don't steal the credit of someone who can no longer defend themselves.  

 

[monicker]

Sounds like you arguing with yourself.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Oh, doctor, my sides, they ache so much - such wit, such humor ! 

[Aegir]

If anyone has the time to sit through all of these Carol Kaye videos: http://snapshotsfoundation.com/video/interviews

How many incorrect claims are there?

[Loaf]

Out of all the people associated with the BBs online and in print, has there ever been a more nakedly honest person than AGD?

Whether you agree with him, or whether he's polite ( ) is not the issue. His methods and motives are always transparent with a large basis in fact.

[runnersdialzero]

If anyone has the time to sit through all of these Carol Kaye videos: http://snapshotsfoundation.com/video/interviews

How many incorrect claims are there?

37.833

[Andrew G. Doe]

If anyone has the time to sit through all of these Carol Kaye videos: http://snapshotsfoundation.com/video/interviews

How many incorrect claims are there?

37.833

Oh. I made it 32¾.

[SMiLE Brian]

Wow, Carol is just plain nasty when the truth is revealed.

[runnersdialzero]

If anyone has the time to sit through all of these Carol Kaye videos: http://snapshotsfoundation.com/video/interviews

How many incorrect claims are there?

37.833

Oh. I made it 32¾.

:O

Also, ridiculous little letter you've got, there. Always sad to hear someone who was part of something you loved is *that* kind of peron.

[Andrew G. Doe]

If anyone has the time to sit through all of these Carol Kaye videos: http://snapshotsfoundation.com/video/interviews

How many incorrect claims are there?

37.833

Oh. I made it 32¾.

:O

Also, ridiculous little letter you've got, there. Always sad to hear someone who was part of something you loved is *that* kind of peron.

Wasn't a letter - posted on her own forum, i.e. technically published.

[runnersdialzero]

Lovely. :\

[The Heartical Don]

I think it was a veiled love letter.

[c-man]

There's no evidence to support her claim that she played on The Beach Boys' version of "I Was Made To Love Her" (yes, she has claimed to play on BOTH the Stevie Wonder original AND The Beach Boys' cover).  She claims The BBs version was cut at Western with her on bass & Hal on drums.  Accoriding to the AFM contract, it was cut at Heider's and no outside musicians were involved.  Not to say the AFM is uncategorically 100% accurate, but if she did play on The BBs version, she wasn't paid, at least not "legally" (through the Union), as she was on many of their sessions from December 1964 to May 1967.

If she "hates" James Jamerson, perhaps she "hates" Ray Pohlman too.  I wonder if she's seen my sessionography from the big SMiLE box yet, where I lay out exactly how many "Good Vibrations" sessions she played on...fact is, she played 12-string electric on the 4/9 Gold Star version (Ray Pohlman played the Fender bass on both the 2/17 and 4/9 sessions), Dano bass on the 5/24 Sunset Sound session (where Carl played Fender bass), and finally Fender bass on the 6/18 Western session.  That's it.  And NONE of those pieces made it to the final master edit.  So she's not on the single.  All of the Fender bass on the final, master single edit was played by Ray Pohlman, except for in the third bridge & chorus fade; the Fender bass
in those sections was played by Arthur Wright (a genuine Motown session alumnus) (EDIT: Lyle Ritz played the Fender bass on the choruses included in the released 45 version).

But I'm no Russ Wapensky, so what do I know (no disrepesct to Mr. Wapensky).  I'm just some guy who listened to every single scrap of "Good Vibrations" and SMiLE session tape still in the vaults, and examined scans of all the corresponding AFM contracts in the Union archives (obtained through completely legal channels, I assure you).

Personally, I prefer to remember Carol Kaye as I heard her on the session tapes from all those years ago:  funny, polite, and one hell of a musician, one who added many colors to Brian's SMiLE palette (acoustic guitar, banjo, 12-string electric, Fender & Dano basses, even the sound of a board dropping).

[runnersdialzero]

Question: while Ms.Kaye being on the Beach Boys version is extremely unlikely given the era of the band and the fact that it's been said she's NOT on it, who did play bass on the song? Or who are the likely candidates?