"I Was Made to Love Her" on Wild Honey and Carol Kaye's claims

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

Since it was a Wild Honey track, how about that guy "Ron", who Bruce mentioned years ago as having been hired to play some bass tracks on WH? Not to deny Carl a credit, but that bass line is a bit more advanced than perhaps Carl was as a bassist in 1967.

Ron Brown is a possibility, although the IWMTLH session contract only lists Beach Boys as I recall.

That is an issue, but I can imagine some circumstance where somebody says "Let's have Ron play bass on this" and Ron says "You gonna pay me?" and somebody says "Well, you're already on the clock, you can't double dip."  And then they leave him off the contract.  It's a stretch and without evidence totally speculative.

Nothing on GV presents the same demands on a bassist that IWMTLH do.  Not that it's that hard to play, and maybe Carl secretly practiced bass a lot, but I feel like that's not something he'd put together up to recording standards, though I would LOVE to be proved wrong.

[guitarfool2002]

Carl's style of bass was staying more on the rhythmic root notes, I can't think of any bass lines he played in the 60's where he did anything close to a melodic line like Jamerson. Are there any?

[Jon Stebbins]

Ron Brown is way more of a natural for that part...i agree...but up the thread we were talking about the likelihood of it being between Al, Bruce... or Carl...and if I had to guess from those three choices I'd definitely say Carl just because of his Motown leanings.

[c-man]

Question: while Ms.Kaye being on the Beach Boys version is extremely unlikely given the era of the band and the fact that it's been said she's NOT on it, who did play bass on the song? Or who are the likely candidates?

Bruce or Alan, I'm guessing.

I'd guess that its Carl on bass, Dennis on drums. My reasoning is that Carl was the BB's resident Motown fan, and he learned those parts for fun...I doubt Al ever did, Bruce isn't exactly known for his soul. C-man might have additional insight.

Your guess trumps my guess.  

Until C-man settles this, your guess is as good as mine.

C-man would LOVE to settle this, but to do that he requires the opportunity to listen to the entire UNEDITED tape from that session (assuming there is more than what's shown up on the SOT boot).  And then the requirement is that the dialog on the tape actually reveals the identity of the bass player (some session tapes do, some don't).  Hopefully that will happen some day, but until then...my best guess is Ron Brown, my second best is Carl.  

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

Question: while Ms.Kaye being on the Beach Boys version is extremely unlikely given the era of the band and the fact that it's been said she's NOT on it, who did play bass on the song? Or who are the likely candidates?

Bruce or Alan, I'm guessing.

I'd guess that its Carl on bass, Dennis on drums. My reasoning is that Carl was the BB's resident Motown fan, and he learned those parts for fun...I doubt Al ever did, Bruce isn't exactly known for his soul. C-man might have additional insight.

Your guess trumps my guess.  

Until C-man settles this, your guess is as good as mine.

C-man would LOVE to settle this, but to do that he requires the opportunity to listen to the entire UNEDITED tape from that session (assuming there is more than what's shown up on the SOT boot).  And then the requirement is that the dialog on the tape actually reveals the identity of the bass player (some session tapes do, some don't).  Hopefully that will happen some day, but until then...my best guess is Ron Brown, my second best is Carl.  

C-man, is there any other evidence where somebody hasn't been put on an AFM sheet by the Boys for a reason like I suggested?  Like, since they were already under contract and "on the clock" so to speak, they maybe even had a legal right not to pay them for the session?  When, if ever did they stop filing AFM sheets?  I know there are spotty Sunflower records, but then Surf's Up drops off, doesn't it?  Even though presumably Daryl and Eddie and others are all over that record?  Did they get paid for those sessions?

[guitarfool2002]

Just to remind: Carl isn't listed on that GV sheet as playing bass, yet the film shows him on bass.

And through a magazine article, another possible disputed credit popped up for me last week with who played baritone guitar on Glen's "Wichita Lineman"...the WC website has the AFM contract stating one thing, and the son of the musician who says he played it reports another. Confusing stuff.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

Just to remind: Carl isn't listed on that GV sheet as playing bass, yet the film shows him on bass.

And through a magazine article, another possible disputed credit popped up for me last week with who played baritone guitar on Glen's "Wichita Lineman"...the WC website has the AFM contract stating one thing, and the son of the musician who says he played it reports another. Confusing stuff.

Carol has always said that Glen used her Dano for that.

[Aegir]

A person's style of bass playing doesn't matter if they're playing on a cover song and duplicating an already-written bassline.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

A person's style of bass playing doesn't matter if they're playing on a cover song and duplicating an already-written bassline.

It does if they have never developed a feel for that idiom, or the facility to play the line in the first place.

[Heysaboda]

“..... setting himself up as some sort of "god" to history.... ”

LOL what a riot!!!

Well, to me anyway, AGD strides around here as a Colossus, and well he should.  His expertise is much appreciated!

[stack-o-tracks]

I think Carol Kaye hates men and things she doesn't understand.

But the same could be said for a lot of people.

[I. Spaceman]

wow, Motown didn't move out to LA until '72, right? So she is claiming she played on Motown stuff that was recorded in Detroit?

Actually, Motown had an office in LA, and many album tracks were recorded there, sometimes entire albums. HDH also recorded some tracks in LA with the Wrecking Crew, including The Supremes' Love Is Here And Now You're Gone. Many Motown groups recorded covers of smashes from other acts on the label, and these were sometimes recorded in LA. These are most likely the sessions Carol was "confused" about. Or, maybe she is just crazy.

[Andrew G. Doe]

That's been suggested to her more than once, but she insists she played on the hit versions. Oddly, despite having listed all the union sessions, her session log makes no mention of these recordings, according to Allan Slutsky.

[harrisonjon]

IIRC she tries to do the GV bass riff in the Endless Harmony video and fluffs it.

[grooveblaster]

wow, Motown didn't move out to LA until '72, right? So she is claiming she played on Motown stuff that was recorded in Detroit?

Actually, Motown had an office in LA, and many album tracks were recorded there, sometimes entire albums. HDH also recorded some tracks in LA with the Wrecking Crew, including The Supremes' Love Is Here And Now You're Gone. Many Motown groups recorded covers of smashes from other acts on the label, and these were sometimes recorded in LA. These are most likely the sessions Carol was "confused" about. Or, maybe she is just crazy.

I didn't know about having stuff recorded in LA earlier. Thanks for the information.

[c-man]

Question: while Ms.Kaye being on the Beach Boys version is extremely unlikely given the era of the band and the fact that it's been said she's NOT on it, who did play bass on the song? Or who are the likely candidates?

Bruce or Alan, I'm guessing.

I'd guess that its Carl on bass, Dennis on drums. My reasoning is that Carl was the BB's resident Motown fan, and he learned those parts for fun...I doubt Al ever did, Bruce isn't exactly known for his soul. C-man might have additional insight.

Your guess trumps my guess.  

Until C-man settles this, your guess is as good as mine.

C-man would LOVE to settle this, but to do that he requires the opportunity to listen to the entire UNEDITED tape from that session (assuming there is more than what's shown up on the SOT boot).  And then the requirement is that the dialog on the tape actually reveals the identity of the bass player (some session tapes do, some don't).  Hopefully that will happen some day, but until then...my best guess is Ron Brown, my second best is Carl.  

C-man, is there any other evidence where somebody hasn't been put on an AFM sheet by the Boys for a reason like I suggested?  Like, since they were already under contract and "on the clock" so to speak, they maybe even had a legal right not to pay them for the session?  When, if ever did they stop filing AFM sheets?  I know there are spotty Sunflower records, but then Surf's Up drops off, doesn't it?  Even though presumably Daryl and Eddie and others are all over that record?  Did they get paid for those sessions?

Um, yeah, there's a few times where we know someone played a session but they aren't on the AFM (although I can't say for sure I know the reason why they aren't):  most notable example is Frank DeVito's absence from the "Surfin' USA" contract.  And of course, Carl's name is absent from the contract for many sessions that the tape reveals he is playing on (like the 6/16 "Good Vibrations" session...yet his name IS on the 6/18 "Good Vibrations" contract, which he also played).  I have access to AFM sheets all the way up to Brian's 2005 Christmas album sessions.  As for the "Surf's Up" album sessions:  there's an AFM contract for every single song on that album, but the problem is (with the exception of "Long Promised Road") they are obviously "fudged" (only the BBs themselves are listed).  For "Long Promised Road", Carl Wilson is listed over & over again for each of the instruments he played (and he played them ALL on that one).  Similarly, the "Holland" AFMs appear to be "fudged".  But, ironically, for the album inbetween ("So Tough"), they appear to be pretty much complete, with one exception:  the piano player for Ricky & Blondie's two tunes is NOT listed on the contract, but it's Alex Del Zoppo from the band Sweetwater (this fact was uncovered by the awesomely dilligent & dedicated BBs researcher Ian Rusten).  And then there's Russ Titleman playing percussion on "She Knows Me Too Well" and Terry Melcher playing tambourine on one or two "Pet Sounds" cuts.  There's one or two other examples, but they all seem to be friends of band members who maybe joined the session at the last minute, and maybe didn't care about not getting paid.  I don't think Carol Kaye would fall into that category.  As for Ron Brown, who knows. 

[Mikie]

So who played on the Carl & The Passions album other than The Beach Boys and the Dragon brothers?

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

That's wonderful information, C-man, exactly what I was interested in and beyond.  It's nice to know that AFM sheets are alive and well.  They are such a fascinating piece of the puzzle.  I think I've seen the LPR sheet--certainly proof that Carl knew what he was doing.

So who played on the Carl & The Passions album other than The Beach Boys and the Dragon brothers?

That has always felt pretty home-grown to me, but definitely a dark spot on my who-played-on-what RADAR.

[Bicyclerider]

I think it was a veiled love letter.

We can still admire her work - and she does seem to be a humorous, fun- loving person on the session tapes - but not approve or like the person she has become.  Kind of like Phil Spector.  

[runnersdialzero]

I think it was a veiled love letter.

We can still admire her work - and she does seem to be a humorous, fun- loving person on the session tapes - but not approve or like the person she has become.  Kind of like Phil Spector.  

*rimshot*

[guitarfool2002]

A person's style of bass playing doesn't matter if they're playing on a cover song and duplicating an already-written bassline.

It does matter, a great deal actually. There's more to playing a part than the notes, and if you've ever transcribed a Jamerson bassline or tried to play one, the notes are complicated enough, but once you get the notes down the feel and the groove are what sets it apart. It's a groove that is tough to nail if you haven't played that style, it's very unique. I'm just saying, not that Carl wasn't competent, but he really didn't play bass and didn't play like that if he did.

[guitarfool2002]

Just to remind: Carl isn't listed on that GV sheet as playing bass, yet the film shows him on bass.

And through a magazine article, another possible disputed credit popped up for me last week with who played baritone guitar on Glen's "Wichita Lineman"...the WC website has the AFM contract stating one thing, and the son of the musician who says he played it reports another. Confusing stuff.

Carol has always said that Glen used her Dano for that.

That's not the credit I just read - and there is the new controversy! Let's compare notes on who actually played the part, seriously! Whether Glen played it or not is one issue, then which session guy played it if it wasn't Glen is the other.

[guitarfool2002]

wow, Motown didn't move out to LA until '72, right? So she is claiming she played on Motown stuff that was recorded in Detroit?

Actually, Motown had an office in LA, and many album tracks were recorded there, sometimes entire albums. HDH also recorded some tracks in LA with the Wrecking Crew, including The Supremes' Love Is Here And Now You're Gone. Many Motown groups recorded covers of smashes from other acts on the label, and these were sometimes recorded in LA. These are most likely the sessions Carol was "confused" about. Or, maybe she is just crazy.

I didn't know about having stuff recorded in LA earlier. Thanks for the information.

Early Jackson 5: I Want You Back, ABC, those were cut in Hollywood using some Wrecking Crew members like guitarists Don Peake and Louis Shelton, and future jazz-fusion stars like Joe Sample and Wilton Felder. A lot of people thought that was Motown but they recorded in Los Angeles.

[DonnyL]

my vote goes to Bruce or Ron Brown (as long as there's no possibility it's Carol ... to me it sounds like her style).

[runnersdialzero]

MOTOWNPHILLY