Brian has signed off on Smile Sessions......

[drbeachboy]

@desmondo

We know they are going to be futzing with certain tracks. Example, Surf's Up; flying in Brian's vocals, etc. For it to feel complete, they will have to do some "magic" (as stated earlier) with some of the tracks. Not a big deal for me at all.

[guitarfool2002]

Plus, as you've stated, almost all of what was stated in LLVS ! has since been refuted by further research, as Dom will readily admit. That's one reason I'm eagerly awaiting his box set essay.

I'm still wondering why more voices and opinions were not solicited for such an essay on Smile. Not taking anything away from the past, because LLVS is one of my favorite and most-read books of all time, but it feels a bit like a "been there - done that" situation might develop around this essay, and I'd almost welcome some new thoughts from a different voice for such a project where Smile is being presented in a new and fresh way. How many versions of the same story can we read from the same author(s) without feeling like it's the same writing with a few tweaks and additions?

I'm just putting that on the table, and maybe it's only my own obsession with Smile and my having read everything out there multiple times that wishes there were a new voice and perspective in the mix on the writing.

[seanmurd]

I think if anything, it will be interesting to see how Dom's take on it will have evolved, given all the information since LLVS, and given what the box will consist of and, in particular, how disc one is sequenced. I'm sure if someone ELSE were to write the essay in the book, fans would be wondering, "But what does DOM think about all this?"

[guitarfool2002]

I think if anything, it will be interesting to see how Dom's take on it will have evolved, given all the information since LLVS, and given what the box will consist of and, in particular, how disc one is sequenced. I'm sure if someone ELSE were to write the essay in the book, fans would be wondering, "But what does DOM think about all this?"

His writing appeared around the BWPS project too, where for the first time something resembling a sequence was presented beyond legions of fan mixes and fantasy compilations, so any thoughts may have been more valid at that time and we've read them. For this project, it's no different having someone sequence it in 2011 than it was in 2004 or 1993 for the sake of the project at hand. Neither one really matters since the original Smile was never sequenced properly in 1967, and all Brian did here in 2011 was listen to several hours of material and "sign off".

I think we need to go beyond the notions of building a sequence and just absorb the music and the details of how it was created. For me, the idea of a sequence has distracted many folks through the years from hearing the music and soaking it all in, with the bottom line being there *never* was an original sequence for Smile, and anything else is pure speculation or a new creation based on what was needed at the moment. It simply did not exist in 1967.

[desmondo]

@desmondo

We know they are going to be futzing with certain tracks. Example, Surf's Up; flying in Brian's vocals, etc. For it to feel complete, they will have to do some "magic" (as stated earlier) with some of the tracks. Not a big deal for me at all.

Nor for me as long as it was intended and 66/67 tracks

[desmondo]

Would that do it ?

Long as it's in Brian's blood (or ReadyWhip)!

Haha - yes indeed

[bgas]

I think if anything, it will be interesting to see how Dom's take on it will have evolved, given all the information since LLVS, and given what the box will consist of and, in particular, how disc one is sequenced. I'm sure if someone ELSE were to write the essay in the book, fans would be wondering, "But what does DOM think about all this?"

His writing appeared around the BWPS project too, where for the first time something resembling a sequence was presented beyond legions of fan mixes and fantasy compilations, so any thoughts may have been more valid at that time and we've read them. For this project, it's no different having someone sequence it in 2011 than it was in 2004 or 1993 for the sake of the project at hand. Neither one really matters since the original Smile was never sequenced properly in 1967, and all Brian did here in 2011 was listen to several hours of material and "sign off".

I think we need to go beyond the notions of building a sequence and just absorb the music and the details of how it was created. For me, the idea of a sequence has distracted many folks through the years from hearing the music and soaking it all in, with the bottom line being there *never* was an original sequence for Smile, and anything else is pure speculation or a new creation based on what was needed at the moment. It simply did not exist in 1967.

Tho, to be certain, we should put Brian under and play all the mind games we can to find out what exactly he does remember. Maybe he had a plan.

[guitarfool2002]

I think if anything, it will be interesting to see how Dom's take on it will have evolved, given all the information since LLVS, and given what the box will consist of and, in particular, how disc one is sequenced. I'm sure if someone ELSE were to write the essay in the book, fans would be wondering, "But what does DOM think about all this?"

His writing appeared around the BWPS project too, where for the first time something resembling a sequence was presented beyond legions of fan mixes and fantasy compilations, so any thoughts may have been more valid at that time and we've read them. For this project, it's no different having someone sequence it in 2011 than it was in 2004 or 1993 for the sake of the project at hand. Neither one really matters since the original Smile was never sequenced properly in 1967, and all Brian did here in 2011 was listen to several hours of material and "sign off".

I think we need to go beyond the notions of building a sequence and just absorb the music and the details of how it was created. For me, the idea of a sequence has distracted many folks through the years from hearing the music and soaking it all in, with the bottom line being there *never* was an original sequence for Smile, and anything else is pure speculation or a new creation based on what was needed at the moment. It simply did not exist in 1967.

Tho, to be certain, we should put Brian under and play all the mind games we can to find out what exactly he does remember. Maybe he had a plan.

Peter Reum does suggest the three movement design wasn't a new idea in 2004, but no matter what people want to think I doubt there was ever a specific sequence or plan in place in 1967, and looking for one is pure fantasy because it never existed. If it had, I'd like someone to explain why such an original tracklist wasn't represented on BWPS since we had the co-creators from 1967 at the helm again in 2004.

[Bicyclerider]

Well, see Reply #124. Brian makes it sound like he might of been toying with idea, but who knows. Considering that he followed through with the idea for the live piece some 20+ years later, there must be at least a little merit to it.

What happened to the Americana and Elemental sides view??? Back in the day that seemed to be an accepted notion - I've been away for a bit so forgive me if its been poo pooed

That theory, originally Dom's right? still holds for a two sided vinyl album.  You've got to split one "movmement" onto two sides to do it, which, if you believe Brian had three movements in mind in 67 (and I don't), would be the childhood/cycle of life movement.

Putting the movements onto three vinyl sides with some kind of bonus cuts on the fourth makes no sense in terms of recreating what might have been in 66/67, but I guess that's how they're doing it using BWPS as a model.  Or template.  Or whatever.  The only up side is they may put otherwise unavailable stuff on side four (instrumental tracks, acetates of low sound quality not selected for the CD's)!

But remember, the Americana/Elements sides was just a theory of Dom's.  Haven't read or seen anything from the day, or even later, that suggests Brian had that as a plan (you'd think Vosse's 69 interview would have mentioned that).  It's more likely that Americana would have been interspersed with all the other tracks so that rather than having an Americana movement or section, Americana would have been a theme going through the entire album.  That would be more consistent with some of Van Dyke's statements about the album being an American Gothic trip, etc., than segregating the Americana tracks onto one side or the other.

[bgas]

I think if anything, it will be interesting to see how Dom's take on it will have evolved, given all the information since LLVS, and given what the box will consist of and, in particular, how disc one is sequenced. I'm sure if someone ELSE were to write the essay in the book, fans would be wondering, "But what does DOM think about all this?"

His writing appeared around the BWPS project too, where for the first time something resembling a sequence was presented beyond legions of fan mixes and fantasy compilations, so any thoughts may have been more valid at that time and we've read them. For this project, it's no different having someone sequence it in 2011 than it was in 2004 or 1993 for the sake of the project at hand. Neither one really matters since the original Smile was never sequenced properly in 1967, and all Brian did here in 2011 was listen to several hours of material and "sign off".

I think we need to go beyond the notions of building a sequence and just absorb the music and the details of how it was created. For me, the idea of a sequence has distracted many folks through the years from hearing the music and soaking it all in, with the bottom line being there *never* was an original sequence for Smile, and anything else is pure speculation or a new creation based on what was needed at the moment. It simply did not exist in 1967.

Tho, to be certain, we should put Brian under and play all the mind games we can to find out what exactly he does remember. Maybe he had a plan.

Peter Reum does suggest the three movement design wasn't a new idea in 2004, but no matter what people want to think I doubt there was ever a specific sequence or plan in place in 1967, and looking for one is pure fantasy because it never existed. If it had, I'd like someone to explain why such an original tracklist wasn't represented on BWPS since we had the co-creators from 1967 at the helm again in 2004.

My take is Brian wanted to distance himself from the 67 project, even while claiming his songs. Maybe he didn't/doesn't remember exactly( or just didn't want to be bothered), and rather than put himself in the middle of another no-win position, he chose to draw a whole new more contemporary framework. 
While it's easy to credit VDP as a co-creator, for the tracklist/production/LP, I view him as just another "hired hand". Yes, his lyrics are integral to the songs. But not to the integrity of the piece as a whole. That wasn't his "place". It was Brian's vision

[Mikie]

I'm still wondering why more voices and opinions were not solicited for such an essay on Smile. Not taking anything away from the past, because LLVS is one of my favorite and most-read books of all time, but it feels a bit like a "been there - done that" situation might develop around this essay, and I'd almost welcome some new thoughts from a different voice for such a project where Smile is being presented in a new and fresh way. How many versions of the same story can we read from the same author(s) without feeling like it's the same writing with a few tweaks and additions?

For the average buyer or fan off the street who reads it, it'll be just fine. For the hardcore fan who has read everything and more, it might be repetitive. For the average Joes who have not read LLVS before (many people) it will be very revealing. I predict that even the hardcores will be happy with Priore's writings. We are hardcores and we'll be tough to please as can be expected.

Twould be nice if we got a little book with many of the musician's (those still alive) comments like we did in the Pet Sounds box. But I'm not so sure they'd have anything more of value to say as the Pet Sounds/Good Vibrations/Smile sessions were so close together and memories of particular sessions and songs would probably be hazy.

[juggler]

I think we need to go beyond the notions of building a sequence and just absorb the music and the details of how it was created. For me, the idea of a sequence has distracted many folks through the years from hearing the music and soaking it all in, with the bottom line being there *never* was an original sequence for Smile, and anything else is pure speculation or a new creation based on what was needed at the moment. It simply did not exist in 1967.

I agree 100%.   Too much time has been wasted on the sequence.  A sequence did not exist in 1967.  And let's not forget that Brian Wilson was in a very erratic period.  Even if Brian HAD sequenced Smile one way on, say, February 1, 1967, his sequence might have been substantially different on February 2, 1967. We're talking about an artist in a period of explosive creativity.  He was never some kind of rigid, predictable person who had one idea and stuck to it like glue.  Bottom line... don't get hung up on sequence.

[seanmurd]

I think we need to go beyond the notions of building a sequence and just absorb the music and the details of how it was created. For me, the idea of a sequence has distracted many folks through the years from hearing the music and soaking it all in, with the bottom line being there *never* was an original sequence for Smile, and anything else is pure speculation or a new creation based on what was needed at the moment. It simply did not exist in 1967.

I agree completely. Mark and Alan should focus on making disc one an enjoyable, coherent sequence of the best, most complete versions of every major SMiLE track -- nothing more, nothing less. Adding the pressure of "finishing SMiLE" or "solving the puzzle" only brings back the bad old feelings. Attempting to shoe-horn everything into the BWPS template is also more work and stress than they need to take on, imo. Just make disc one a fun listen of the best tracks, and focus on including new, cool stuff on the other discs.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

My take is Brian wanted to distance himself from the 67 project, even while claiming his songs. Maybe he didn't/doesn't remember exactly( or just didn't want to be bothered), and rather than put himself in the middle of another no-win position, he chose to draw a whole new more contemporary framework.
While it's easy to credit VDP as a co-creator, for the tracklist/production/LP, I view him as just another "hired hand". Yes, his lyrics are integral to the songs. But not to the integrity of the piece as a whole. That wasn't his "place". It was Brian's vision

My thoughts exactly.

[guitarfool2002]

I thought the musicians' comments and photos were a highlight of the Pet Sounds box, and would definitely welcome that with Smile too! Given what I've read, the memories are hazy if not non-existent when it comes to Smile, and even the reliable guys like Hal Blaine don't seem to connect with the questions about Smile.

I'm thinking one way to go would be to track down the original players as listed and heard on the tapes, and if possible have a listening session with them and get their comments as the tapes roll. It's not unlike a DVD package where they have a running commentary going on one audio track as the movie or show plays on the screen. These tracks can be *fascinating*, and I'd love to sit in a room with some of those musicians and play Smile tracks for them. It might jog the memory more than just asking about it.

[buddhahat]

It the artistic and historical accuracy part of AGD post which are the most important for me - as long there is proof that "the album" and any alternate mixes are not just the figment of anyone's brain but present an accurate picture of Brian's vision in 66/67 that's fine with me

I think there will have to be a degree of artistic license with disc 1. For instance, I don't think anyone imagines they've located a sequenced Elements suite amongst the acetates. As such, where are they going to place Fire in a way that is historically accurate?

My guess is that, in instances such as the above, where Brian left holes and work unfinished in 66/67, Mark and Alan will be forced to take a 'best guess'. Their best guesses will either be informed by the best information they have from the original sessions or participants' recollections (perhaps, for the sake of argument, Carol Kaye's assertation that Fire was to be followed by IWBA/FN, don't fall of your chair AGD!!), or they will default to the BWPS blueprint: i.e. Fire + Water Chant + LTSDD etc.

There are many tracks such as Fire that pose similar problems. Great Shape is another. Of course I don't know, but I'd be surprised if they have found enough info to sequence the bulk of the material in a historically accurate way. Imo for Disc 1, we'll get a bit of historical, a bit of BWPS and a bit of what just sounds good a la Mark's Heroes Sections mix. Anyone expecting historical accuracy all the way is setting themselves up for a big disappointment if you ask me.

[guitarfool2002]

And I never understood the obsession with Smile tracklists and sequences which led to the dozens of fan mixes through the years. The fact that a fan wants to compile a version of Smile based on his or her own choices and preference is fine, but to debate points of sequencing which never existed seemed like a distraction from the beauty of the music and the pathos of the whole thing, at least in my opinion. But to each his own, naturally.

My main point above is worth repeating: If there were a question about sequencing or tracklists from 1967, who would be better to ask than Brian Wilson and Van Dyke Parks, and why didn't they use an original sequence in 2004 if it existed in any form? The fact that both men were actively involved in the project in 2004 yet had no original sequence to work from dating to 1966 or 1967 is about as clear of a sign there never was a sequence as we could hope to find.

[guitarfool2002]

Anyone expecting historical accuracy all the way is setting themselves up for a big disappointment if you ask me.

Maybe not: They could simply present the material in chronological order based upon either when it was recorded or when a mix was done on the tracks to create whatever song fragment we're hearing. That way, there would be no nit-picking over whether Brian, David Leaf, Al Jardine, or Alan Boyd devised any given track order or edit, and the focus would be the historical nature of presenting a timeline of songs as they developed rather than another glorified fan mix.

That's not setting myself up for too big of a letdown I hope!

[drbeachboy]

Anyone expecting historical accuracy all the way is setting themselves up for a big disappointment if you ask me.

Maybe not: They could simply present the material in chronological order based upon either when it was recorded or when a mix was done on the tracks to create whatever song fragment we're hearing. That way, there would be no nit-picking over whether Brian, David Leaf, Al Jardine, or Alan Boyd devised any given track order or edit, and the focus would be the historical nature of presenting a timeline of songs as they developed rather than another glorified fan mix.

That's not setting myself up for too big of a letdown I hope!

You may see this on the remaining 3 discs, but Disc 1 would have to be sequenced if the idea is to present Smile as an Album. I mean albums like 20/20 and CATP get criticized for non-cohesiveness. Can't have Smile getting knocked as just being thrown together without some kind of musical flow.

[Mikie]

I'm thinking one way to go would be to track down the original players as listed and heard on the tapes, and if possible have a listening session with them and get their comments as the tapes roll. It's not unlike a DVD package where they have a running commentary going on one audio track as the movie or show plays on the screen. These tracks can be *fascinating*, and I'd love to sit in a room with some of those musicians and play Smile tracks for them. It might jog the memory more than just asking about it.

I know Brian Wilson probably did this already with Darian in 2004 and again with Boyd and Linett last year and again this year. Ah, to be a fly on the wall when Brian was listening to the Smile stuff!!  It must have jogged Brian's memory upon hearing some of these things, even after all these years of being unable to listen to it. Was 2004 the first time in decades that he's heard the material or was it the Smile tracks on the '93 GV box or Smiley 2-fer in 1998? Or before that with Carl & Desper listening to the tapes?

[guitarfool2002]

Anyone expecting historical accuracy all the way is setting themselves up for a big disappointment if you ask me.

Maybe not: They could simply present the material in chronological order based upon either when it was recorded or when a mix was done on the tracks to create whatever song fragment we're hearing. That way, there would be no nit-picking over whether Brian, David Leaf, Al Jardine, or Alan Boyd devised any given track order or edit, and the focus would be the historical nature of presenting a timeline of songs as they developed rather than another glorified fan mix.

That's not setting myself up for too big of a letdown I hope!

You may see this on the remaining 3 discs, but Disc 1 would have to be sequenced if the idea is to present Smile as an Album. I mean albums like 20/20 and CATP get criticized for non-cohesiveness. Can't have Smile getting knocked as just being thrown together without some kind of musical flow.

That's my suggestion: Since it was not a cohesive album until Brian released BWPS in that form, why even put that in the plans from the beginning? A historical release is just that: historical. If it never had a sequence, why not go historical all the way and present it as a timeline and not worry about musical flow? Maybe a single-disc release would be concerned with flow and sequence, but I have historical releases in several genres which work better for the set in chronological order no matter what the flow may be. We can program it ourselves any way we wish.

And in my own opinion criticizing CATP for non-cohesiveness is doing it a favor in light of the actual quality of the songs, but that's just my opinion.

[drbeachboy]

After the release of BWPS, I'm really interested to see how different/similar this version will be sequenced. Sorry, about your dislike of CATP. I really enjoy it and next to Sunflower and Love You it gets played more than the rest of their 70's albums. For me it is a great change of pace album.

[vintagemusic]

Anyone expecting historical accuracy all the way is setting themselves up for a big disappointment if you ask me.

Maybe not: They could simply present the material in chronological order based upon either when it was recorded or when a mix was done on the tracks to create whatever song fragment we're hearing. That way, there would be no nit-picking over whether Brian, David Leaf, Al Jardine, or Alan Boyd devised any given track order or edit, and the focus would be the historical nature of presenting a timeline of songs as they developed rather than another glorified fan mix.

That's not setting myself up for too big of a letdown I hope!

You may see this on the remaining 3 discs, but Disc 1 would have to be sequenced if the idea is to present Smile as an Album. I mean albums like 20/20 and CATP get criticized for non-cohesiveness. Can't have Smile getting knocked as just being thrown together without some kind of musical flow.

I think I agree with you here. It's not so much what was the intended running order. But rather a flow for disc one, as close as possible
to a polished listenable album. Even flying in pieces or the finished Cabin Essence or whatever. All the other stuff is there for purists (hopefully)
I would think its the most anti consumer thing you could do, to have no "as close as we can get" to a finished album. I wouldn't mind if there was
a clear demarcation and they utilized the rest of the space on disc one for something else. As long as "(sic) "finished album" runs in sequence first.
By sequence I don't mean what may or may not have been intended in the 1960's. I mean a listenable finished sounding album now.

Three hours plus on discs 2-4 plus the running length of the LP vinyl should be plenty of program time to put lots and lots of stuff
What can you get on three Cd's 230 minutes plus? and then the vinyl another hour? or will the vinyl repeat some of the same program as
the cds

I would think without a finished album sequence you are trying to get people "not to buy the product" I think most regular non fanatic fans
just want to hear the lost album., I dont think they want to debate whether "look" or "the cantina" belong here or there or not at all.

[Roger Ryan]

You have to keep in mind that the idea of structuring an album as opposed to simply putting a bunch of songs together was a fairly new idea in '66. Even with PET SOUNDS, Brian's main concern was to present a full album of "good" songs" instead of a handful of hit single attempts plus filler. With all the tracks finished (or mostly finished), Brian could then sequence them in a way that appealed to him. What we got wasn't really a conceptual flow following a couple's relationship although it has been read that way; it was a collection of tracks including some stuff started a year-and-a-half earlier and one track that was an attempt to write a James Bond theme song.

I don't think Brian changed his viewpoint that much when he began working on the SMiLE album. As early as November '66, he's referring to it as "Good Vibrations", "Heroes & Villains" and "ten other songs". He's just cutting tracks and playing around with sequencing segments within individual songs. While he may have had a vague idea of how the twelve songs might appear on the album, he probably was waiting to finish the songs before considering a sequence. I don't think there was any "Americana" side or "Elemental" side planned. When the album was abandoned with almost none of the tracks finished, there was no need to develop a sequence. The gift of BWPS is the fact that Brian Wilson in 2003 was forced to sequence the material in order to perform it and came up with a really superb order.

I, too, will be really interested in reading what Dom has to say in the new booklet. Just back in 2005 he was claiming that THE ELEMENTS had all been recorded and that a completed version of SURF'S UP from January '67 existed in the vaults that had not been released yet!

Oh, and I also think SO TOUGH is a real nice change of pace for the band and listen to it quite often.

[desmondo]

Anyone expecting historical accuracy all the way is setting themselves up for a big disappointment if you ask me.

Maybe not: They could simply present the material in chronological order based upon either when it was recorded or when a mix was done on the tracks to create whatever song fragment we're hearing. That way, there would be no nit-picking over whether Brian, David Leaf, Al Jardine, or Alan Boyd devised any given track order or edit, and the focus would be the historical nature of presenting a timeline of songs as they developed rather than another glorified fan mix.

That's not setting myself up for too big of a letdown I hope!

You may see this on the remaining 3 discs, but Disc 1 would have to be sequenced if the idea is to present Smile as an Album. I mean albums like 20/20 and CATP get criticized for non-cohesiveness. Can't have Smile getting knocked as just being thrown together without some kind of musical flow.

That's my suggestion: Since it was not a cohesive album until Brian released BWPS in that form, why even put that in the plans from the beginning? A historical release is just that: historical. If it never had a sequence, why not go historical all the way and present it as a timeline and not worry about musical flow? Maybe a single-disc release would be concerned with flow and sequence, but I have historical releases in several genres which work better for the set in chronological order no matter what the flow may be. We can program it ourselves any way we wish.

And in my own opinion criticizing CATP for non-cohesiveness is doing it a favor in light of the actual quality of the songs, but that's just my opinion.

"We can program it ourselves any way we wish."

Maybe that's the problem here - lots of us won't accept the "Smile Album" as the genuine article cos we think we know best and will programme our own version despite what happens later this year.