Brian has signed off on Smile Sessions......

[Andrew G. Doe]

Can anyone say or speculate, what would be the upper limit for a circa 1967 vinyl release
is it really 20 minutes per side, or could you go say, 25, 26 minutes per side?

I am not entering into the debate at all, about what the content or running order of
SMiLE would have been. I am just wondering, what a good mastering limit would be
for that period. It's a little before my time and I never really paid that much attention
to how much you could fit on a vinyl side.

All to do with sound quality, groove size and the type of music. Basically, loud music = short album or the needle jumps out of the groove..

Is the disc one of the SMiLE box, the one approximating a finished album. Will they be
paying any attention to what the real time limit would have been in 1967 ?

thanks in advance

Disc 1 of the 2CD set is the "as-close-as-we-can-get" version (descended from BWPS). As for the box, that will occupy the first three vinyl sides. As for the rest of the box - remaining album side, the 4 (?) CDs, the two singles - nothing's been said.

[JMZ]

To Andrew G. Doe:

Hello, I'm sorry to bother you but I just posted what I feel is an interesting though about what Brian Wilson and Mark Linett said on the work in progress.

You posted 3 times since then (in less than 10 minutes).

Which:

- Is not very on topic (I'm sure there are other places where Phil Cohen and You can debate each others vision)
- Reduces the chances other readers get what I just said, and that's bad  

[The Shift]

To Andrew G. Doe:

Hello, I'm sorry to bother you but I just posted what I feel is an interesting though about what Brian Wilson and Mark Linett said on the work in progress.

You posted 3 times since then (in less than 10 minutes).

Which:

- Is not very on topic (I'm sure there are other places where Phil Cohen and You can debate each others vision)
- Reduces the chances other readers get what I just said, and that's bad 

It's okay -  this is a message board and the threads will be there as long as good ol' Comic List continues to pay his hosting dues.  Those of us who read everything won't miss your post!

[JMZ]

Those of us who read everything won't miss your post!

So that's good news ! I stopped reading this thread on page 4, because of some sterile and off-topic debates and I'm glad to hear others are more courageous than me.

[Andrew G. Doe]

To Andrew G. Doe:

Hello, I'm sorry to bother you but I just posted what I feel is an interesting though about what Brian Wilson and Mark Linett said on the work in progress.

You posted 3 times since then (in less than 10 minutes).

Which:

- Is not very on topic (I'm sure there are other places where Phil Cohen and You can debate each others vision)
- Reduces the chances other readers get what I just said, and that's bad  

Rest assured here, everyone reads all the posts.

As for the other, entirely accurate observation - I just woke up: the tea & toast hadn't kicked in yet.  

Now:

I don't know if this has been discussed elsewhere, but I feel that there will be astonishing things made on the "album" CD.

According to the Brians' quote "i had to approve it before they could finish it" and the Mark Linnet interview on Billboard: "there are things that we can do that was just technologically impossible when those bootlegs were made in the 1980's. For example, we can put Brian's vocal back into "Surf's Up,"

I understand Brian's quote like they worked on some digital manipulations to make mixes and edits that didn't existed before. So they needed Brian's approval as these are clearly artisic choices.

So this is pretty obvious they will do things bootleggers and us fans attempted several times, but of course they have more skills and better source material.

Works for me. Mark's spoken of flying in Brian's vocals for the verses from the 12/15/66 session to the  instrumental track eventually used for the released version. Brian saying he listened to four hours of tapes clearly indicates that he was listening to work in progress, not everything available, which has been stated to be something like 25-30 hours worth.

Hopefully, flying-in such material will be done with regard for artistic and historical accuracy, and done a damn sight more sensitively than on Anthology 2, which even I noticed was dire.

[vintagemusic]

Can anyone say or speculate, what would be the upper limit for a circa 1967 vinyl release
is it really 20 minutes per side, or could you go say, 25, 26 minutes per side?

I am not entering into the debate at all, about what the content or running order of
SMiLE would have been. I am just wondering, what a good mastering limit would be
for that period. It's a little before my time and I never really paid that much attention
to how much you could fit on a vinyl side.

All to do with sound quality, groove size and the type of music. Basically, loud music = short album or the needle jumps out of the groove..

Is the disc one of the SMiLE box, the one approximating a finished album. Will they be
paying any attention to what the real time limit would have been in 1967 ?

thanks in advance

Disc 1 of the 2CD set is the "as-close-as-we-can-get" version (descended from BWPS). As for the box, that will occupy the first three vinyl sides. As for the rest of the box - remaining album side, the 4 (?) CDs, the two singles - nothing's been said.

Oh thank You for that info. So for me I probably need the two disc set,  because disc one of the two disc set, will be on vinyl in the 4 disc set.
That gives me a headache just saying that!. I cant play vinyl I doubt they would put the "as close as they can get" on the vinyl and repeat
the same content again on one of the four discs. I guess "real Fans" will burn there own adjusted copies. I'll probaly end up buying the
four disc a year later when I Live with it and see I need to make a substitution!

[The Shift]

Can anyone say or speculate, what would be the upper limit for a circa 1967 vinyl release
is it really 20 minutes per side, or could you go say, 25, 26 minutes per side?

I am not entering into the debate at all, about what the content or running order of
SMiLE would have been. I am just wondering, what a good mastering limit would be
for that period. It's a little before my time and I never really paid that much attention
to how much you could fit on a vinyl side.

All to do with sound quality, groove size and the type of music. Basically, loud music = short album or the needle jumps out of the groove..

Is the disc one of the SMiLE box, the one approximating a finished album. Will they be
paying any attention to what the real time limit would have been in 1967 ?

thanks in advance

Disc 1 of the 2CD set is the "as-close-as-we-can-get" version (descended from BWPS). As for the box, that will occupy the first three vinyl sides. As for the rest of the box - remaining album side, the 4 (?) CDs, the two singles - nothing's been said.

Oh thank You for that info. So for me I probably need the two disc set,  because disc one of the two disc set, will be on vinyl in the 4 disc set.
That gives me a headache just saying that!. I cant play vinyl I doubt they would put the "as close as they can get" on the vinyl and repeat
the same content again on one of the four discs. I guess "real Fans" will burn there own adjusted copies. I'll probaly end up buying the
four disc a year later when I Live with it and see I need to make a substitution!

I would assume that disc 1 on the 2xCD and 4xCD set would be the same. And I assume that Disc 2 in the 2xCD set will be the pick of discs 2, 3 and 4 of the 4xCD package. It's just my guess, but otherwise there'd be six CDs of different material flying around and I doubt we'd be so lucky!  Plus, if BW's signed off four hours of material, that'd be awfully stretched across 6 CDs.

[Micha]

Here's what I copied from a post on the old Smile Shop board a decade or so before. The source of these is a certain Desmond F. J. (Desmond Jones?)

I used to cut 45 & LP laquers twenty years ago or so. Here is what could have been cut by Capitol Mastering at Hollywood & Vine for T-2580-A/B in January-May 1967:

12" blank cut on a lathe at 33 1/3 RPMs with a 3 mil monophonic routine cutting stylus had a maxium cutting time of:

112 Lines Per Inch (LPI) = 11:36 m/s per side
136 Lines Per Inch (LPI) = 14:06 m/s per side
144 Lines Per Inch (LPI) = 14:48 m/s per side
220 Lines Per Inch (LPI) = 22:48 m/s per side

Without "over cutting" the grooves, beyond 220 LPI the signal to noise ratio (s/n) starts to drop fast. For example a 25 minute LP side would really kind of suck technically!

Still, the English version of The Rolling Stones' "Aftermath" (UK version) LP runs 52 minutes and sounds great.

[Andrew G. Doe]

I would assume that disc 1 on the 2xCD and 4xCD set would be the same. And I assume that Disc 2 in the 2xCD set will be the pick of discs 2, 3 and 4 of the 4xCD package. It's just my guess, but otherwise there'd be six CDs of different material flying around and I doubt we'd be so lucky!  Plus, if BW's signed off four hours of material, that'd be awfully stretched across 6 CDs.

Fair point, and likely exactly what will happen, but wouldn't they have explicitly said so ?  We'll see. Later.

[JMZ]

Rest assured here, everyone reads all the posts.

Thank you for that, I feared my remarks would upset you   Here's a suggestion I made: http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,10362.0.html

Works for me. Mark's spoken of flying in Brian's vocals for the verses from the 12/15/66 session to the  instrumental track eventually used for the released version. [...] Hopefully, flying-in such material will be done with regard for artistic and historical accuracy, and done a damn sight more sensitively than on Anthology 2, which even I noticed was dire.

Do you think they will do other stuff like that ? I mean flying Brian's vocals on Surf's Up a la Anne Wallace is pretty easy. But do you see other "magic" (please notice the quotes, as digital manipulation is garbage to the eyes of purists) happening on other tracks ? For instance, I found a way to sync the vocals from 8th track of "UM16" of the "Look" choruses (makes something near the "Song For Children" version on BWPS). I'm sure they could do it even better ... Do you feel this could happen ?

but otherwise there'd be six CDs of different material flying around and I doubt we'd be so lucky!

I'd really wouldn't be against that  

[drbeachboy]

If one is trying to create a "finished" type Smile album, then "magic" will be needed to accomplish that goal. Also, don't get to carried away with the thought of 6 CDs. Capitol has stated that 2 and 4 CD packages is what will be produced.

[Chris Moise]

For all you "12 track" enthusiasts out there, I recognize that this info does not support your ideas.

If anyone is an enthusiast in this discussion it's those on the "movements" side of the fence. There simply isn't any evidence that supports the supposition that a '66-'67 Smile LP would've consisted of movements. There is an overwhelming amount of evidence that directly contradicts it--I'm happy to be shown otherwise but all existing info shows a '66-'67 Smile an album of 12 distinct tracks with fade outs (with the Elements a possible exception).  

[drbeachboy]

Well, see Reply #124. Brian makes it sound like he might of been toying with idea, but who knows. Considering that he followed through with the idea for the live piece some 20+ years later, there must be at least a little merit to it.

[Bicyclerider]

Here's what I copied from a post on the old Smile Shop board a decade or so before. The source of these is a certain Desmond F. J. (Desmond Jones?)

I used to cut 45 & LP laquers twenty years ago or so. Here is what could have been cut by Capitol Mastering at Hollywood & Vine for T-2580-A/B in January-May 1967:

12" blank cut on a lathe at 33 1/3 RPMs with a 3 mil monophonic routine cutting stylus had a maxium cutting time of:

112 Lines Per Inch (LPI) = 11:36 m/s per side
136 Lines Per Inch (LPI) = 14:06 m/s per side
144 Lines Per Inch (LPI) = 14:48 m/s per side
220 Lines Per Inch (LPI) = 22:48 m/s per side

Without "over cutting" the grooves, beyond 220 LPI the signal to noise ratio (s/n) starts to drop fast. For example a 25 minute LP side would really kind of suck technically!

Still, the English version of The Rolling Stones' "Aftermath" (UK version) LP runs 52 minutes and sounds great.

Dylan's albums routinely ran 50-52 minutes - even after he went electric ("loud") with Highway 61.  I would argue that that album (and Aftermath) did suffer a bit in sound quality as a result, but still sound good.

[desmondo]

Well, see Reply #124. Brian makes it sound like he might of been toying with idea, but who knows. Considering that he followed through with the idea for the live piece some 20+ years later, there must be at least a little merit to it.

What happened to the Americana and Elemental sides view??? Back in the day that seemed to be an accepted notion - I've been away for a bit so forgive me if its been poo pooed

[Roger Ryan]

While it may be a good aesthetic decision to keep CD 1 the supposed "album" and nothing else, the PET SOUNDS BOX SET followed the 36 minute stereo mix with session material to fill out the disc. Personally, I would prefer they fill the CDs to the max with material. If you want the pure experience of hearing just the quasi-finished tracks assembled, you can hit stop on your player before the alternate mixes/session stuff kicks in. 

[rab2591]

True, however the set also came with a mono album that only had the 13 tracks on it.

[seanmurd]

True, however the set also came with a mono album that only had the 13 tracks on it.

Right -- it could even be argued that the "core" disc of the Pet Sounds box was the remastered mono album, and ALL the other three discs (including the stereo mix of the album) were the "sessions" discs.

As for how the SMiLE box will be configured, I'm guessing that it will be like this:

(1) Disc One: Final "complete" Smile album -- probably based on BWPS, and therefore not 40 mins, but more like 50-60. No sessions. This makes it easier for Capitol to release this as a single-disc "Smile" CD down the road.
(2) Disc Two: The "best" of the sessions and alternates. I predict Disc Two will be the same in the 2-CD version and the box, because Capitol will want to keep it simpler, and not risk the box's D2 accidentally getting put in the 2-CD version, and vice-versa. Plus, having the same Disc Two in both sets lowers manufacturing costs. It's possible that the 2-CD version might even be packed in the box as-is, same packaging and everything.
Disc Three: More sessions, like disc two of the Pet Sounds box. I suspect these discs will be treated as "bonus" discs, filled with what the casual fan might consider second-tier material. After all, Disc Two (mass-produced for the masses) will have the best of the non-album stuff.
Disc Four: Alternate takes, edits, acetates and stereo remixes. The "best" of this category will be on disc 2, with disc 4 having the (relative) leftovers.

I can't wait to see the tracklist, so we will have something ELSE to talk about for a month or two!   I'm especially curious about side FOUR of the LP -- will it be stuff from the CDs, or will there be exclusive material on there (as with BWPS)? I've hedged my bets and re-subscribed to ESQ, in case they have any exclusive CD giveaways (as they also did with BWPS) -- so in a way, I've already spent 30 bucks on the Smile Sessions!

-------------------
Sean Murdock

[desmondo]

True, however the set also came with a mono album that only had the 13 tracks on it.

Right -- it could even be argued that the "core" disc of the Pet Sounds box was the remastered mono album, and ALL the other three discs (including the stereo mix of the album) were the "sessions" discs.

As for how the SMiLE box will be configured, I'm guessing that it will be like this:

(1) Disc One: Final "complete" Smile album -- probably based on BWPS, and therefore not 40 mins, but more like 50-60. No sessions. This makes it easier for Capitol to release this as a single-disc "Smile" CD down the road.
(2) Disc Two: The "best" of the sessions and alternates. I predict Disc Two will be the same in the 2-CD version and the box, because Capitol will want to keep it simpler, and not risk the box's D2 accidentally getting put in the 2-CD version, and vice-versa. Plus, having the same Disc Two in both sets lowers manufacturing costs. It's possible that the 2-CD version might even be packed in the box as-is, same packaging and everything.
Disc Three: More sessions, like disc two of the Pet Sounds box. I suspect these discs will be treated as "bonus" discs, filled with what the casual fan might consider second-tier material. After all, Disc Two (mass-produced for the masses) will have the best of the non-album stuff.
Disc Four: Alternate takes, edits, acetates and stereo remixes. The "best" of this category will be on disc 2, with disc 4 having the (relative) leftovers.

I can't wait to see the tracklist, so we will have something ELSE to talk about for a month or two!   I'm especially curious about side FOUR of the LP -- will it be stuff from the CDs, or will there be exclusive material on there (as with BWPS)? I've hedged my bets and re-subscribed to ESQ, in case they have any exclusive CD giveaways (as they also did with BWPS) -- so in a way, I've already spent 30 bucks on the Smile Sessions!

-------------------
Sean Murdock

All good stuff but my view is that the "Smile Album" will be 40 mins or under as it probably would have been back in 66/67 - whether there are additional session stuff on D1 (a la PS) who knows.

Also I don't think we should see the ML BWPS template quote as meaning that it will be just a 66 version of BWPS - of course I don't actually know that but its my reading of what has been said and what hasn't been said.

[desmondo]

To Andrew G. Doe:

Hello, I'm sorry to bother you but I just posted what I feel is an interesting though about what Brian Wilson and Mark Linett said on the work in progress.

You posted 3 times since then (in less than 10 minutes).

Which:

- Is not very on topic (I'm sure there are other places where Phil Cohen and You can debate each others vision)
- Reduces the chances other readers get what I just said, and that's bad  

Rest assured here, everyone reads all the posts.

As for the other, entirely accurate observation - I just woke up: the tea & toast hadn't kicked in yet.  

Now:

I don't know if this has been discussed elsewhere, but I feel that there will be astonishing things made on the "album" CD.

According to the Brians' quote "i had to approve it before they could finish it" and the Mark Linnet interview on Billboard: "there are things that we can do that was just technologically impossible when those bootlegs were made in the 1980's. For example, we can put Brian's vocal back into "Surf's Up,"

I understand Brian's quote like they worked on some digital manipulations to make mixes and edits that didn't existed before. So they needed Brian's approval as these are clearly artisic choices.

So this is pretty obvious they will do things bootleggers and us fans attempted several times, but of course they have more skills and better source material.

Works for me. Mark's spoken of flying in Brian's vocals for the verses from the 12/15/66 session to the  instrumental track eventually used for the released version. Brian saying he listened to four hours of tapes clearly indicates that he was listening to work in progress, not everything available, which has been stated to be something like 25-30 hours worth.

Hopefully, flying-in such material will be done with regard for artistic and historical accuracy, and done a damn sight more sensitively than on Anthology 2, which even I noticed was dire.

It the artistic and historical accuracy part of AGD post which are the most important for me - as long there is proof that "the album" and any alternate mixes are not just the figment of anyone's brain but present an accurate picture of Brian's vision in 66/67 that's fine with me

[drbeachboy]

Yeah, but at 40 mins. there would be no need to fill 3 sides of an LP. I would think it's possible that we get 50+ mins. Averaging 18 mins a side we're talking 54 minutes.

[The Shift]

[quote author=Andrew G. Doe link=topic=10349.msg188458#msg188458 date=130570914
… as long there is proof that "the album" and any alternate mixes are not just the figment of anyone's brain but present an accurate picture of Brian's vision in 66/67 that's fine with me

And how in heck is anyone gonna be able to verify that??

[desmondo]

[quote author=Andrew G. Doe link=topic=10349.msg188458#msg188458 date=130570914
… as long there is proof that "the album" and any alternate mixes are not just the figment of anyone's brain but present an accurate picture of Brian's vision in 66/67 that's fine with me

And how in heck is anyone gonna be able to verify that??

Ooops - why can't we just accept it as being fact when it arrives - and put all the loony theories that aren't based on anything really factual to one side - or do we all think we know better. I just don't believe Mark and Alan would just make stuff up cos they feel like it - they know what the reaction would be from this board (me included)

Verification??? - something like this? - in the sleeve notes

D2 - Track 17 Heroes and Villains ?/66 (inc Barnyard, OMP, YAMS and IIGS) 7.08 - this mix was found on a ?/66 DP/AJ/BJ acetate and has been produced using what was found on that disc. The arrangement also appeared on a labelled tape box from ?/?/1966 bearing Brian Wilson's signature and in instructions given by Brian to Chuck Britz.

Would that do it ?

[Mahalo]

Hopefully, flying-in such material will be done with regard for artistic and historical accuracy, and done a damn sight more sensitively than on Anthology 2, which even I noticed was dire.

What are you reffering to on anthology 2?

[The Shift]

Would that do it ?

Long as it's in Brian's blood (or ReadyWhip)!