It’s interesting that many people formed a strong view of the artists in this period. Seems like a lot of celebrity fans of Elvis like John Lennon did not like the backing singers and strings and wanted Elvis to just sing rock and roll with his two or three piece band again. I remember George Harrison saying that in the Anthology video.

Yes, that's something I thought about from time to time as well. It's like people like John Lennon and Paul McCartney wouldn't let Elvis grow musically yet at the same time they where demanding that the audience would let them go on from "I want to hold your hand" to their current music. It's a little hypocritical but yet it's what some fans felt and in the end the Beatles were fans just as the next guy. Unfortunately though, many people listen to what Lennon said and think that it has more authority than their own opinion just because it comes from a Beatle, which has led to a lot of the beatiful music Elvis made after 1960 being totally under appreciated.

To tell you the truth - and I won't go further into this at this point because it would probably need a lengthy demonstration - the main problem I see with this attitude to Elvis' later recordings is the labeling of "Rock'n'Roll" of his music (and that of his peers for that matter) and the stereotyped thinking of the audience. Elvis of course didn't play Rock and Roll, he played music his own way (so did Chuck Berry, Little Richard, Jerry Lee Lewis, Bo Diddley, Carl Perkins a.s.o.) which would then be called "Rock and Roll" and would evolve into a category with a somewhat particular range.

This is of course totally anachronistic and does not describe the way Elvis and the other guys looked at their own music (at least not initially) but it's the way the fans, including the Beatles and others, up to this day look at the early 'Rock and Rollers'. You could argue that while Elvis wanted to make music, the Beatles (and other acts like the Stones etc.) wanted to play "Rock and Roll" (I hope it is clear what I mean, I'd need more time to come up with a better way to phrase this sufficiently).

And although "Rock and Roll" is considered to be the ultimate "there are no boundaries"-style of music, this attitude actually limits that music in very harsh ways, so much so that you are not allowed to appreciate the beauty of Elvis' "It's now or never" if you're a Rock'n'Roller, although in Elvis' own eyes there was no difference between that song and "Hound Dog" because it is just the same naturaly way he made music - both come from the same inner source as "That's alright".

In more recent years I actually find myself wondering more and more if that short periode of time when people like Elvis got their start and before that label "Rock and Roll" crushed everything to death, and of course the way some of these acts continued to make music throughout their carreers may have been the only time when "Rock and Roll" was actually what people to this day like to claim it is but actually isn't. And thinking about this makes me appreciate Sam Phillips all the more because as I understand it, this way of looking at music without any categories was just what he did.

Rocker, you nailed it with this post. To Elvis and Jerry Lee and the others, it was music. Just music. No labels necessary. Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

Not that I'm aware of.

Sh!#. F$$$. I'm just too dang old. Still hung up on physical media.

Of the 3, I like the Carl Wilson, Under God the most. There's just some really excellent tracks on that one. Check out My Old Friend, on You Tube, by Billy and Desi. It's a great song.

Is that one still available?

Carl Perkins is SOOO underrated! When people discuss the pioneers of rock and roll, he is often left out, but he was right there in the beginning, just like Elvis, Chuck, Richard, Fats.

The "Sail on Sailor" set is doubly a game changer, because for the folks who think it's all about Brian, it (and of course the "Feel Flows" set as well) proves the other guys were turning out excellent material. And then, for those who conversely assume Brian played no role in things by that point, and just slept through the whole trip other than singing the opening line on "Saga", there's a bunch of quintessential Brian stuff that we had never heard before.

Right on! 

Is it true that fans were worried about Brian in 1991/92? I was a fan, but an outsider. I had no insight into what fans were feeling at that time. I was concerned, for sure.  I was worried that without Landy, Brian would fall back into his old habits - smoking, drinking, drugging, hiding away from the world. I had no idea what was happening with him throughout 1992/93/94.

If you want to know how thing were in 1991, this Diane Sawyer report offers probably the single best insight into that period:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVP7pNjJd30&t=64

Melinda (heavily disguised, but that is clearly her voice) can be spotted at 10:05 spilling the beans on Landy.

Yes she did, and Landy on camera then proceeds to blatantly lie about it. Everyone trying to contact Brian at that time was "screened", whether by phone or in person. And if you talk to people who were involved, it went far beyond screening calls with Landy's attempts to shut off outside contact with Brian unless it was strictly monitored and controlled. That's fact, and it was not a good scene. Anyone who defends Landy in this later phase of his involvement is delusional.

It was easy for fans to be fooled by Landy, because he worked such wonders with Brian in the early days of his return. Brian goes from looking like a beached whale in 1982 to looking handsome and slimmed down in 1983. Mentally, he still seemed shaky, but I guess we all assumed that would be part two of the therapy program.

I will admit I didn't buy the Sail On Sailor set.  Why?  Because it seemed that Brian was more or less MIA in this period.  I listened to some of the rare tracks from the set and my reaction was "blah".   Frankly, it's a period of the band that doesn't particularly interest me, just my personal taste I guess.  BUT, I would totally go for a 1976-77 set where Brian was back and recording a bunch of some of the most eccentric music of his career.  Oh yeah.   

And I'm just the opposite. I love the music of the mature Beach Boys in 1970-73, and very little interest in the work of a wacked out Brian in 1976-77.

You could say I was on anything but a roll....

You mean the excellent Netflix one? 

https://youtu.be/aSgjNffYBdo?si=Wy5pKuk5k_8rtqnj

no dvd version?

Whatever happened with that CCR documentary that came out a couple years ago? I kept expecting I would see it in the DVD section of my music store.

Is it true that fans were worried about Brian in 1991/92? I was a fan, but an outsider. I had no insight into what fans were feeling at that time. I was concerned, for sure.  I was worried that without Landy, Brian would fall back into his old habits - smoking, drinking, drugging, hiding away from the world. I had no idea what was happening with him throughout 1992/93/94.

If you want to know how thing were in 1991, this Diane Sawyer report offers probably the single best insight into that period:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVP7pNjJd30&t=64

I remember watching that when it aired, I also remember a verbal back and forth between Timothy White and Bill Holdship in the pages of Billboard.

On another board someone mentioned that Mike's statement, while very kind, is written almost entirely through the prism of Brian. And well, yeah I think that's true. And yes, that does stick out a bit for this attuned to such things. There will be plenty of time to parse all these words later.

But I think one has to be realistic about things. That statement from Mike, who always posts very eloquent statements in these situations, is really the most kind, compassionate thing I think we could ever expect from him concerning anything to do with Melinda. And I don't mean that as any sort of back-handed compliment. I think Mike obviously had a very complicated relationship with Melinda, and he cares about Brian obviously, so he leaned mainly on compassion for Brian in his statement. I'm not sure what else he could have done. I don't begrudge him skipping any sort of "While Melinda and I didn't always see eye to eye...." stuff in the moment.

I have to think Mike and Al are in a very similar position as fans in that I think a lot of us haven't been this worried for Brian since the 1991/92 Landy era. But even that is a difficult topic to lean too heavily on, because it can tend to take away the strength that Brian has also exhibited over all these years. I honestly don't know what someone in his position thinks. Do these things make him feel life is more fragile, or does he feel like's destined (or doomed a cynical person might say) to outlive *everybody* at this point?

Is it true that fans were worried about Brian in 1991/92? I was a fan, but an outsider. I had no insight into what fans were feeling at that time. I was concerned, for sure.  I was worried that without Landy, Brian would fall back into his old habits - smoking, drinking, drugging, hiding away from the world. I had no idea what was happening with him throughout 1992/93/94. There was a spate of publicity surrounding his book in 1991, and then nothing after that. When he started turning up in media again in 1995 (Time Life's History of Rock and Roll, Entertainment Tonight with Mike, IJWMFTT), it was obviously he'd gained a lot of weight, and he still had kind of a spacey-ness about him, but there were also times when he spoke very eloquently, and when I heard the new music he was part of, I breathed a sigh of relief. I didn't know the whole back story at the time, other than Carl and Audree had taken the legat steps to have Landy removed. Didn't know how he had met Melinda or any of that. It's amazing that he is still with us.

I'll be "advocatus diaboli" here and note that SB served his time and paid his debt to society.  The fact is that from "Imagination" through Brian's late-career renaissance, SB is part of the story.  Heck, he's a person Brian called "the most talented musician I've ever met." Digest that one for a minute.  None of that can't be changed or taken away from him.  Must he be ostracized forever?   

The whole point of the law is for society to outline what criminals owe them. As a society, we outlined it and he paid it

Exactly. He did his time, he should be forgiven.

Thank you Surf Rider for keeping this thread going.

I think the reputation of a lot of Elvis’s 1960s and 70s work has improved now that it is taken out of its original context. A song like Love letters may have too mellow to make much of an impact on the 1966 charts but now it is viewed as a classic. Similarly It Hurts Me was overshadowed in the year of the Beatles invasion but now shines more brightly

I hope you are correct. For most of my life, I've been reading that nearly everything Elvis recorded after his Army stint - other than the 68 comeback special and the 69 Memphis sessions - was worthless.
There are gems to be found in every phase of Elvis' career. Even the soundtracks.

Al Presley? Where's Al Jardine? Al Jackson? Blind Al?

Just one additional comment about Ringo... how amazing is he for 83? Especially when one considers what an unhealthy child he was, spending approximately 3 years of his youth as an in-patient at children's hospitals... living proof of the "what doesn't kill me makes me stronger" concept.  Such a rare "good guy" in the rock-star world, something that I think that fans picked up from the very beginning (making him the most popular Beatle for fan letters in the '60s).

Yes, Ringo is amazingly healthy for an older guy. My mom had a similar childhood - very sickly, in and out of hospitals. Graduated late from high school because she had missed so much time over the years. Then had many, many years of healthy living.

man who had a lifetime of heavy drug use

I'm not sure that "lifetime" is a totally fair descriptor.  Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that, over the course of approximately 15-20 years, Brian had periods of heavy drug use?  Without a doubt, though, drug use comparable to Brian's during those bouts would have and did kill many of his peers, cf. Elvis, Hendrix, Jim Morrison, Janis Joplin, Keith Moon and many others.  

I've read of Keith Moon taking elephant tranquilizer - in one infamous show, he collapsed during a song, and the others had to call out for a drummer from the audience. I can't imagine Brian or even Dennis taking anything quite that strong!
Elvis, of course, was not into street drugs. He preferred to depend on various doctors for what he "needed". Hendrix, based on what little I read, was really not a heavy "druggie". I've read conflicting reports of his death.
Whatever the amount or length of Brian's drug abuse, I think it's fair to say that he was not a person who should have ever "dabbled". Some could and come out the other side intact - namely, John, Paul, George and Ringo. For others, it quickly got out of control.

I do notice in the few recent pictures we’ve seen he’s looked much better than he did during that final tour

Yeah hopefully he's doing better.  I really hope he isn't pushed into touring any further if he doesn't want to and isn't in good shape for it.  There's been recent videos going around on Facebook of an 89-year-old Frankie Valli hobbling around on stage and is very clearly lip-syncing to a pre-recorded vocal track and it's not a good look.  We don't need Brian going that route. 

Frankie Valli has been lip-syncing for eons. It's truly bizarre that he still gets bookings when for years and years (probably well over a decade?) he's been doing this, and very unconvincingly. I guess people are still buying tickets.

I've been hearing about this for years, so I decided to check out some You Tube vids. Yep, it's obvious. His voice is too perfect in those performances. And he's barely moving his mouth. Seriously, it gave me the creeps, it was like watching a corpse walk around on stage. I'm glad the Beach Boys aren't doing that. Yes, there might be an occasional tv appearance they lip synch, but when you see them in concert, it's all live.
I will say that Valli's band and backup singers sounded great. Sometimes I forget what a great catalog the 4 Seasons have.

I agree with rab to a point - and we've had our disagreements in the past. I agree that Brian looked horrible during much of the 70's; then there's an improvement post-Landy; even in 1979 he was looking pretty good. But then the downward spiral began again. 1982 was absolute rock bottom.
So I am thankful that Carl recognized this, and took the steps to bring Dr. Landy back. It's unfortunate that Landy later refused to let go, and insisted on being Brian's songwriting partner and co-producer, but initially, his therapy seemed to do Brian a world of good. I remember seeing Brian on one of those ET/Evening type shows during the Xmas holidays in 1983, and being amazed at his transformation. "Is that really Brian? He looks more like Glen Campbell - suntanned, healthy, great hair, slimmed down".
If Carl hadn't taken the steps to bring Landy back, who knows, Brian may not have lived much longer.
I just wish Carl were still here, too.

I don't have the answers, but there's something about it I don't like. It just seems like another instance of more power going to a couple of huge monopolies. It's bad enough that there only a couple of major labels now.
I just watched Hall's chat with Bill Maher, and there was something going on there. Hall didn't even attempt to hide his dislike of Oates. I get it. Years ago, someone - RCA, management, maybe Hall himself - decided he was the star of the group, and pushed for him to be the dominant voice - the lead singer on all the singles, the main songwriter, etc. In the early days, Oates had several lead vocals chosen as singles; wrote maybe 40% of the material; but after the success of "Kiss On My List", it was all Hall, Hall, Hall, Hall. Yet Oates never complained - at least not publicly. Now it's Hall, oddly enough, complaining; complaining that "it sucks being a duo", moaning that he doesn't get enough recognition for his incredible voice, writing, etc. Poor boy.
It's the Everly Brothers all over again.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/daryl-hall-restraining-order-john-oates-legal-battle-nashville/

Good lord. 

Randy Bachman is currently touring as Bachman Turner Overdrive - without Fred Turner, or any other former members of BTO.
Will Daryl tour as Hall & Oates? 

Well, if you're happy with the recording, that's great. That's all that counts in the end. Personally I don't care very much for it. The AI work is impressive but well, it's just not a good song. One can't blame Lennon for the weak singing because he certainly didn't record this with an eye toward it being used as a master. The production is not quite up to my taste but I probably could live with it if the song was better. But this does not come close to the charmingly "Free as a Bird" and "Real Love". The song sounds more like something Lennon was just improvising and hadn't even finished.

The video basically tells the same story imo. The way the young Beatles are used looks very good but the rest has no emotion or meaning to me. Especially the parts of Ringo and Paul recording in the studio look like the typical pandemic home video.
I can see why they didn't finish the song in the 90s. Imo this was not a smart move in terms of the Beatles' legacy (although it probably will not have any influence on that). "Free as a Bird" and "Real Love" were very good ending for the Beatles' recording career and while it is certainly nice for the fans to have this "Now and then", it feels like it does not come out of a natural and progressive way of thinking about music (as the Beatles' best stuff has done) but from a standpoint of "well, everybody does it, so let's do it as well".

Again, just my opinion. I don't wanna be a downer. If you like it, that's great.

I agree. It feels forced, especially inserting 1967 John and George in there alongside 2023 Paul and Ringo.
I will always love Free As a Bird and Real Love and the memories of November 1995. A very special time in my life with the airing of the Beatles Anthology, the release of Anthology 1 and Orange Crate Art.

One of the reasons Jim Valley left Paul Revere and the Raiders was Paul's objection to any kind of drug abuse. Paul feared any of the guys getting busted, and there go the fortunes of the band (as happened with the Lovin' Spoonful). Jim felt that "what I do on my own time is my own business". "Harpo" always struck me as the "peace and love and lovebeads" guy in the Raiders (although he was only with the band for one year), the Peter Tork of the group.
I doubt that Carl Wilson had any objections to pot smoking - I'm sure most of the Beach Boys, including Mike, indulged occasionaly. I'm talking late 60's/early 70's. Later on, Mike was strongly opposed to any and all drug abuse (but he still liked an occasional drink). Carl had his bout with drug addiction in 77/78, then cleaned up his act.

I think Capitol made a big mistake but making God Only Knows a B-side. If it had been released as a separate single after Wouldn't It Be Nice started sliding down the charts, GOK would have been a big hit and it would have kept Pet Sounds selling, maybe keeping Beach of the Beach Boys from happening.

The Beach Boys had many double sided hits - Surfin Safari/409; Surfin' USA/Shut Down; Surfer Girl/Little Deuce Couple; I Get Around/Don't Worry Baby; Dance, Dance, Dance/The Warmth of the Sun; California Girls/Let Him Run Wild. Good value for the money spent.