Was Mike Love *Right*?

[KokoMoses]

Yes, I think Mike Love was right.

And yeah, the other BBs (including Brian) have been so all over the place regarding such issues, and Mike has always stood exactly where he stands.

Mike's opinions on not *F*ing with the formula and whatnot, might sound annoying, but he had a point and was the frontman of the band, co-lyricist, frequent lead singer, founding member, blood relative, so his opinion meant something and should have been respected.

I to this day don't think Smile would have changed the world and would have been steamrolled by Sgt. Pepper, no matter what. Smile was/is great, but Sgt. Pepper rocked and sounded like and was the product of a band! People like to forget how much people in general like bands and the sound of a band and to know the personalities who are creating the sounds. Smile didn't have that.

One thing I dig about BWPS 2004 is that it's Brian's band playing on the stuff as well as singing it. it makes a difference.


But, aside from that, the lyrics to Smile don't really touch me at all. Never have. I can dig the concept, but I can in no way feel anything even close to what I feel when I put on "Please Let Me Wonder" when I play anything from Smile.

Surf's Up I feel transcends this problem simply for the sheer beauty and emotion in Brian's vocal section.

The Beach Boys were/are always about pure, unbridled emotion. There's nothing on smile that allowed for their most basic quality to shine! And let's face it, none of the BBs (ok, maybe Carl) were Pavorotti, but it didn't matter. The fact that they sung out with pure, open voices, almost devoid of any technique, was/is like a beam of light straight from and into the heart.

I think if the Beach Boys had behaved like a band on Smile with Mike contributing (yes, along with Van Dyke Parks) lyrically and the Boys playing their insturments, it could have really been something. But as it was, the Brian is God bubble was about to burst and Smile itself could have done the trick all on it's own, had it been released as intended.

I can defend my opinion about the Boys playing on the tracks, simply because a bit of raw rock n roll verve would have fit right in with the "out-there" material. And as I've stated elsewhere, I'll take Dennis bashing away live on any of their songs over the recorded session guy performances any day. I LOVE the way he played most everything live. Some of his performances on Good Vibrations are enough to give the coolest hipster drummer of today some serious pause.

One other thing, why exactly was Heroes And Villians not the same monster hit that Good Vibrations was?

Was it timing? Perhaps

Was it the melody? NO!!! H&V has an awesome melody

Was it the performance? Maybe. It's not as refined as GV

Was it the fact that no one knew what the hell the song was about?.....

Very likely!

Therefore Maybe Mike should have been listened to.

[BJL]

"I'll take Dennis bashing away live on any of their songs over the recorded session guy performances any day"

I love Dennis as much as anybody, but Hal Blaine wasn't exactly just some random session guy :-)

[KokoMoses]

No, he wasn't! You're absolutely right!

BUT he was a studio guy. Practiced at playing with percision in a controlled studio environment. Just listen to Sloop John B from Pet sounds then listen to the version on "Live In London"

The LIN version rocks and moves and shakes in a way that the studio version just does not.

It's not a matter or which version is better or who was the better player, but rather a matter of feel. I just happen to prefer a bit of risk and pure performance in drumming rather than technique or finesse. I feel that having a guy like Dennis playing on such material would have given it a kick in  the ass in a way..... Not like it exactly NEEDED it though.

[AMDG]

I have never been a big fan of Dennis' drumming.  To me, Brian's best moments were the subtle ones and Dennis' drumming could not catch that.  I always thought Dennis would have served the band better by playing the keys live as opposed to the drums. 

I am a big Beatles fan but Pepper does not do much for me.  I much prefer "Help!", "Rubber Soul", "Revolver" and "Abbey Road".

I am very touched by SMiLE every time I listen to it.  The entire second movement (Whenever I hear "Wonderful" thoughts go to my daughter) is very touching.  The seague from "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow" to "Blue Hawaii" is absolutely sublime.  When Brian sings "Is it hot in hell . . . . . . . " it sounds like he is being transported from Hell to Heaven.  Powerful stuff.

[Jcc]

First post in a really, really long time...like let's say before BWPS.

As I've gotten older, I have a lot more sympathy for Mike Love.  Based on a few things I've read, on this site, and in other places, I'd like to run this scenario past y'all.   This is my theory on how all of this went down.

I think Mike loved his cousin.  I've never thought Mike was a bad guy, and I also think he had every right to question the direction the group was taking at the end of 1966.  I mean, they'd had a really good thing going, they were arguably the 2nd most important rock band in the world, (#1 if you believed the NME) and there was really no guarantee that any of it was going to last.

The key here was Pet Sounds.  If the group had known that album had been a hit, they might have given Brian more support over SMiLE.  But what no one has mentioned in this thread is that Capitol Records was not entirely honest with the group as to the sales figures for that album.  We know now that Pet Sounds, despite the release of the Greatest Hits (the kiss of death for any rock band at that time), and despite Capitol's lack of real marketing muscle for the album, actually sold quite well.  But at the end of 1966, it may have seemed to the group that they'd just "jumped the shark."

So let's say you're Mike.  You're already worried about the group's direction, Pet Sounds' lack of success, and your cousin's emotional well being.  You know he's doing drugs, he's got a bunch of shallow "hangers on" who don't really seem to have his (or the family's) best interests at heart, and on top of all of this, you're more than a little jealous because he's writing these weird lyrics with Van Dyke Parks...who let's face it, was probably a little stuck-up anyway.  As far as that relationship was concerned, I think Mike acted condescending because that's the vibe he received from Van Dyke, who was probably equally condescending.  So you've got all of these factors coming into play, and the "smoking gun" is the fact that the group's last album, Pet Sounds, was also written with a lyrical collaborator (not Mike) and arguably flopped (at least if you believe Capitol).

I think the 3-movement concept was just too far out for the band.  Peter Reum stated in one of his posts that this was the real ending of SMiLE and this argument occurred in December, 1966.  That is most likely what Mike was objecting to with the famous "crow flies uncover the cornfield" argument...it wasn't the music and the lyrics per se, but just this whole pompous idea that his cousin (who'd just taken a lot of drugs) was now thinking of himself as a composer of classical music as rock-and-roll.  I wouldn't be surprised if the way that argument worked out was Mike + Bruce + Carl + Al vs. Brian with Dennis as neutral but supportive.

So then, the original vision was fatally compromised.  My theory is that the group distrusted the 3-movement concept, but didn't really have a problem with the standard 11-12 song format.  The problem was, Brian couldn't find a way to condense and separate his original vision into distinct 2-3 minute pop tunes.  So, he worked and worked and worked, recorded miles of tape, but the more he recorded, the farther away he was from completion.  Of course, this was the first time he'd ever really hit a major roadblock, and so he started questioning not only his vision, but also his ability as a songwriter.  And let's face it, he had a whole choir of people from his father to his own brothers and cousin who were questioning every move from the get-go.  What he needed was just a little encouragement...or someone to just say, "Brian, the track is perfect as is! Let's call it a day."

There was a 1996 message exchange with Jack Rieley (posted on this site), in which he described how Brian had told him that what killed him was the public's less than stellar reaction to Heroes and Villains.  That this confirmed what he had suspected all along...that he wasn't as good as he thought he was, and that he was taking the group in the wrong direction.  Smiley Smile was simply an attempt to salvage the basic tunes which had been recorded, without doing anymore work on them, or trying to make them part of a cohesive whole.  Ironically, Mike's worst fears came true in the end.

In my opinion, if SMiLE had been released in January or February 1967, as a 3-movement work, it would have done quite well.  Not everyone would have liked SMiLE but not everyone who was alive then liked Sergeant Pepper.  My parents were 17 and 20 respectively in 1967.  They lost interest in the Beatles after Sergeant Pepper because they thought the Beatles had "gotten weird".  Yet, they both are huge fans of Pet Sounds and BWPS.

[Dove Nested Towers]

Yes, I think Mike Love was right.

And yeah, the other BBs (including Brian) have been so all over the place regarding such issues, and Mike has always stood exactly where he stands.

Mike's opinions on not *F*ing with the formula and whatnot, might sound annoying, but he had a point and was the frontman of the band, co-lyricist, frequent lead singer, founding member, blood relative, so his opinion meant something and should have been respected.

I to this day don't think Smile would have changed the world and would have been steamrolled by Sgt. Pepper, no matter what. Smile was/is great, but Sgt. Pepper rocked and sounded like and was the product of a band! People like to forget how much people in general like bands and the sound of a band and to know the personalities who are creating the sounds. Smile didn't have that.

One thing I dig about BWPS 2004 is that it's Brian's band playing on the stuff as well as singing it. it makes a difference.


But, aside from that, the lyrics to Smile don't really touch me at all. Never have. I can dig the concept, but I can in no way feel anything even close to what I feel when I put on "Please Let Me Wonder" when I play anything from Smile.

Surf's Up I feel transcends this problem simply for the sheer beauty and emotion in Brian's vocal section.

The Beach Boys were/are always about pure, unbridled emotion. There's nothing on smile that allowed for their most basic quality to shine! And let's face it, none of the BBs (ok, maybe Carl) were Pavorotti, but it didn't matter. The fact that they sung out with pure, open voices, almost devoid of any technique, was/is like a beam of light straight from and into the heart.

I think if the Beach Boys had behaved like a band on Smile with Mike contributing (yes, along with Van Dyke Parks) lyrically and the Boys playing their insturments, it could have really been something. But as it was, the Brian is God bubble was about to burst and Smile itself could have done the trick all on it's own, had it been released as intended.

I can defend my opinion about the Boys playing on the tracks, simply because a bit of raw rock n roll verve would have fit right in with the "out-there" material. And as I've stated elsewhere, I'll take Dennis bashing away live on any of their songs over the recorded session guy performances any day. I LOVE the way he played most everything live. Some of his performances on Good Vibrations are enough to give the coolest hipster drummer of today some serious pause.

One other thing, why exactly was Heroes And Villians not the same monster hit that Good Vibrations was?

Was it timing? Perhaps

Was it the melody? NO!!! H&V has an awesome melody

Was it the performance? Maybe. It's not as refined as GV

Was it the fact that no one knew what the hell the song was about?.....

Very likely!

Therefore Maybe Mike should have been listened to.

The melody WAS a factor in H&V not having the kind of mega-hit potential as GV. (don't misunderstand me, I love it). It just didn't have the same indefinable universality that made
GV such a smash, IMO. The impenetrability of the lyrics was of course also a factor.

[Mr. Cohen]

You know what would be crazy? If we really have no idea what happened! Call me crazy, but I'm starting to believe that. Only Brian, Mike, Carl, Dennis, and Carl really know what happened, and none of them have ever really seemed to want to talk about it. I think we can guess that some crazy stuff went down, but who knows beyond that?

[Dove Nested Towers]

I have never been a big fan of Dennis' drumming.  To me, Brian's best moments were the subtle ones and Dennis' drumming could not catch that.  I always thought Dennis would have served the band better by playing the keys live as opposed to the drums. 

I am a big Beatles fan but Pepper does not do much for me.  I much prefer "Help!", "Rubber Soul", "Revolver" and "Abbey Road".

I am very touched by SMiLE every time I listen to it.  The entire second movement (Whenever I hear "Wonderful" thoughts go to my daughter) is very touching.  The seague from "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow" to "Blue Hawaii" is absolutely sublime.  When Brian sings "Is it hot in hell . . . . . . . " it sounds like he is being transported from Hell to Heaven.  Powerful stuff.

I also have to chime in that Smile touches me (if my username didn't make that clear). It is a
somewhat more cerebral and indefinable emotional connection than earlier work, but no less profound.

I'm not invalidating the opposite opinion, though, different strokes for different folks.

[lance]

Yes, I'm guessing some crazy stuff went down.

[Outie 315]

 
  The Best Of The Beach Boys Vol. 1 , went Gold!
 
  " Kiss Of Death" ?
 
   Not as far as Capitol was concerned.

    Check out the #'s.
 

[hypehat]

all your points make a lot of sense, but.... Mike Love wasn't right. His basic argument was that Smile wouldn't sell, right? Crazy acid alliteration that no-one could relate to, with loads of bonkers 'ego music' in there that makes no sense. Stick to making surfing tunes. they sell.  Nevermind that rock music was moving with brian, very obviously, and there was a lot of press for the album which all basically claimed it to be the second coming of american music. Not even Sgt. Pepper got that sort of pre-release hubbub. So the absolute worse thing to do would be to scrap it, right? And funnily enough, after following Love's (and the others, i guess) advice (which, after Good Vibrations, seems particularly suicidal), The Beach Boys didn't have another hit til the 80's.
If the consensus is that Mike was doing it to save the band, then he's wrong. I fail to see how he could be 'right' in this situation. The beach Boys were ruined commercially, rubbished in the music press and never had the same amount of artistic credibility (which, as they learned later in decade, sells records) again. Mike Love bitches about the beatles being more artistically valued, but that's hypocritical of him. He stymied that creativity. Imagine if George had put the brakes on Pepper because it wasn't 'Please Please Me'? It sounds crazy, right? In my opinion, 'right' would be encouraging Brian to release Smile whilst all the press attention was on him, the Beatles still at work on pepper, and be first with the all-important 'new sound', which even he knew was important. Which is why Heroes failed when it was released. The timing had been ruined (all musical arguments about the Smiley version aside).
Mike Love had a point, granted, but i happen to think that point wasn't based on anything approaching an awareness of music and where it was going at that time. He based it on what he saw at the shows, which is ridiculous. If it were 2, 3 years earlier, he'd have been right. I wouldn't say Mike love was a bad guy, but.... he wasn't bright. And i guess Brian is partly to blame for not convincing the group enough.

[Dr. Tim]

Despite its provocative title and a bit of trolling, I think this SMiLE thread is one of the best this board has ever hosted.  It synthesizes and clarifies the current thinking of what went down all those years ago, given the information we have now and the unlikelihood of getting any better info as the years go on.

When I first joined this board my view was probably more like hypehat's - and to a degree still is.  I do think, though, there is one more variable to keep in mind: even assuming Mike and the others were 100% behind the original concept and the three-movement format, Brian still may not have been able to get it done in 1966-67.   There is evidence to suggest he was starting to unravel anyway, putting too much pressure on himself and not willing to seek any assistance or collaboration which might have relieved some of the pressure - but also would have ceded control.  For their part Mike and the others were understandably wary of what was happening, and did not know how to deal with it.  The shenanigans with Capitol over sales figures, royalties and control didn't help and were surely a distraction, as Jcc eloquently states.  These will always be, to use the hackneyed phrase, among the "known unknowns".

[Dancing Bear]

You know what would be crazy? If we really have no idea what happened! Call me crazy, but I'm starting to believe that. Only Brian, Mike, Carl, Dennis, and Carl really know what happened, and none of them have ever really seemed to want to talk about it. I think we can guess that some crazy stuff went down, but who knows beyond that?

Some crazy stuff like the band voting down the three-movement idea. It was so crazy and painful that it hasn't been mentioned by anyone who was actually there for 43 years! But beware, if you ask Mike, Al or Mike about it, they'll go into a numb stare and take a turn to the White House, to murder Lyndon Johnson.

[Dancing Bear]

And funnily enough, after following Love's (and the others, i guess) advice (which, after Good Vibrations, seems particularly suicidal), The Beach Boys didn't have another hit til the 80's.

They didn't have another hit til 1976 (R'n'R Music sucks but it's there, what can we do?) because Brian couldn't write another one after Good Vibrations. Simple as that. Neither could Carl, Al, Mike, Bruce, Dennis, Blondie and Ricky, to be fair. A hit is a hit, Joe Public doesn't care if it's avant-garde or americana or bubblegum, they just turn on the radio and dig the track. Or not.

[hypehat]

And funnily enough, after following Love's (and the others, i guess) advice (which, after Good Vibrations, seems particularly suicidal), The Beach Boys didn't have another hit til the 80's.

They didn't have another hit til 1976 (R'n'R Music sucks but it's there, what can we do?) because Brian couldn't write another one after Good Vibrations. Simple as that. Neither could Carl, Al, Mike, Bruce, Dennis, Blondie and Ricky, to be fair. A hit is a hit, Joe Public doesn't care if it's avant-garde or americana or bubblegum, they just turn on the radio and dig the track. Or not.

I didn't know R'n'R was a hit. But it sort of proves my point about publicity. Everyone was talking about the BB's, they release a single, and people get interested and buy it. The same would've happened with H&V....maybe.
it's not down to songwriting quality *insert how much i love Wild Honey/Sunflower/Friends/etc here*, but more that the public just wouldn't listen cos they were the beach boys, y'know? they saw it as square surfin' music. The songwriting quality was, whilst not Good Vibes, still of a chart-bothering quality, and they had evolved a long ways artistically. Breakaway is the perfect example. Smile, if released on the crest of that publicity, would have given the beach boys some artistic credibility among the yoof, which would have equated to record sales later on in the decade. People listened to Jann Wenner back then. And the blame isn't solely Mike's, that's true. The lawsuit couldn't have been timed any worse, for instance. But... the thread asked whether Mike was right. And i don't believe he is.

Of course, if i saw my cousin/meal ticket hosting bizarre parties in recording studios staging arguments with his druggie friends instead of making a record (and a bloody strange one at that), i would be worried. I'm not 100% on Brian's side, either. Some of his behaviour was a little....questionable. The music, on the other hand, wasn't. Smile is anything but a case of black and white. But my main point is - Smile would have sold and guaranteed the beach boys credibility among the press/record-buyers like Rubber Soul did the beatles, and the hits might have lasted a little longer, which was his main concern. Opposing Smile caused the opposite of that....That of course, is my opinion. 

[Jcc]

Well, my theory is that the group had their problems with the 3-movement concept.  This would explain why Brian was unable to complete SMiLE in a more standard 12 song format, yet was surprisingly able to tie it all together within a few months in 2003-2004.   It would also explain why the group continued to play live songs from SMiLE throughout the years (H&V, Surf's Up, etc)  or even "mine the tape vault" for ideas until 1971.   None of the group has ever come out and said specifically that they disliked the Smile music.  Lastly, it would also explain the rumors over the years of a "six minute" or even "12 minute" long Heroes and Villains.  This is not to say that Heroes and Villains itself would be 6 or 12 minutes, but that might have been the contemplated length of the First Movement of SMiLE.

I honestly believe that the real issue is that none of the group, Mike especially, could get their heads around the concept of album long tracks.  I'm sure the discussion was along the lines of "Where's the single?"  "How do we play this stuff in concert?"  "Brian, are you trying to go solo?"

And if you've envisioned a 3-movement cantata, how do you break that down into 12 pop songs, on two sides of a record, at 3:35 apiece?

Yes, the B-Boys should have been more patient with Brian, who probably didn't do that great of a job of explaining himself.   But Van Dyke Parks's comment (when asked about the Cabinessence lyrics) "Well, gee Mike, I really don't know what it means" seems awfully snotty in retrospect.  If Parks had explained to Mike what the lyrics meant, there is actually a slight chance that the Lovester might have gotten on board with the project...and that would have changed history.

[Dancing Bear]

And funnily enough, after following Love's (and the others, i guess) advice (which, after Good Vibrations, seems particularly suicidal), The Beach Boys didn't have another hit til the 80's.

They didn't have another hit til 1976 (R'n'R Music sucks but it's there, what can we do?) because Brian couldn't write another one after Good Vibrations. Simple as that. Neither could Carl, Al, Mike, Bruce, Dennis, Blondie and Ricky, to be fair. A hit is a hit, Joe Public doesn't care if it's avant-garde or americana or bubblegum, they just turn on the radio and dig the track. Or not.

I didn't know R'n'R was a hit. But it sort of proves my point about publicity. Everyone was talking about the BB's, they release a single, and people get interested and buy it. The same would've happened with H&V....maybe.
it's not down to songwriting quality *insert how much i love Wild Honey/Sunflower/Friends/etc here*, but more that the public just wouldn't listen cos they were the beach boys, y'know? they saw it as square surfin' music. The songwriting quality was, whilst not Good Vibes, still of a chart-bothering quality, and they had evolved a long ways artistically. Breakaway is the perfect example. Smile, if released on the crest of that publicity, would have given the beach boys some artistic credibility among the yoof, which would have equated to record sales later on in the decade. People listened to Jann Wenner back then. And the blame isn't solely Mike's, that's true. The lawsuit couldn't have been timed any worse, for instance. But... the thread asked whether Mike was right. And i don't believe he is.

Heroes & Villains went as far as it could IMO, an there are rumours that Capitol did some work under the table to move it as high as #12. It's all opinions, but I don't think a December / February / April H&V release would have made much difference. Well, if they had released the Cantina version in Feb, without any discernible chorus, it would have REALLY bombed. Not everything that charted high in USA between 67-70 was corroborated by Jann Wenner. In fact, very little. If the Beach Boys' singles and albums flopped, that means there wasn't a public for them. Other acts with even less credibility sold well or very well. Go figure.

[Dancing Bear]

Well, my theory is that the group had their problems with the 3-movement concept.

Do you think the group ever heard about a 3-movement concept? If so, was their opinion even asked? If so, why hasn't anyone talked about it till BWPS? It seems to be a very important issue to be erased from history like that. It's not like Smile is a black box, we know that there was a confrontation between ML and VDP about Cabinessence lyrics. Brian gave that interview about the group almost breaking up over the decision to self 'Surf's Up' (whatever he meant). It doesn't make sense.

[donald]

Just a related thought/question.    How is it that someone who is credited with writing the lyrics to Warmth of the Sun responsible for some of he really bad songs on his own solo albums?   And, I must say, like Mike or not, those are some seriously pretty bad songs.  Don't wish to stir up bad feelings on a thread that is being kind to Mike......but I have wondered about this.

Perhaps this would be a good place to list the top 5 Mike Love songs where he was the primary or solo lyricist.


WOTS and what other 4 songs?

[hypehat]

Heroes & Villains went as far as it could IMO, an there are rumours that Capitol did some work under the table to move it as high as #12. It's all opinions, but I don't think a December / February / April H&V release would have made much difference. Well, if they had released the Cantina version in Feb, without any discernible chorus, it would have REALLY bombed. Not everything that charted high in USA between 67-70 was corroborated by Jann Wenner. In fact, very little. If the Beach Boys' singles and albums flopped, that means there wasn't a public for them. Other acts with even less credibility sold well or very well. Go figure.

Well, i was wondering about that myself. The 'commerciality' of the Cantina, or any other version that brian assembled is purely hypothetical... and the Cantina version is somewhat barmy. As for the Jan Wenner, it's quicker to type his name than 'assorted hipper-than-thou types, underground press writers, attendees of Monterey Pop, etc waiting to be impressed by Brian & co', if you get my point. The beach boys had definite image problems since Smile, you must admit. Most acts with less credibility don't have the stigma of 5 years of 'uncool' surfing music behind them and the name which instantly reminds you of it.

[Dancing Bear]

Heroes & Villains went as far as it could IMO, an there are rumours that Capitol did some work under the table to move it as high as #12. It's all opinions, but I don't think a December / February / April H&V release would have made much difference. Well, if they had released the Cantina version in Feb, without any discernible chorus, it would have REALLY bombed. Not everything that charted high in USA between 67-70 was corroborated by Jann Wenner. In fact, very little. If the Beach Boys' singles and albums flopped, that means there wasn't a public for them. Other acts with even less credibility sold well or very well. Go figure.

Well, i was wondering about that myself. The 'commerciality' of the Cantina, or any other version that brian assembled is purely hypothetical... and the Cantina version is somewhat barmy. As for the Jan Wenner, it's quicker to type his name than 'assorted hipper-than-thou types, underground press writers, attendees of Monterey Pop, etc waiting to be impressed by Brian & co', if you get my point. The beach boys had definite image problems since Smile, you must admit. Most acts with less credibility don't have the stigma of 5 years of 'uncool' surfing music behind them and the name which instantly reminds you of it.

Yeah, that market was closed for them, no doubt. Btw, they were already on the way to 'uncoolness' before and after releasing Pet Sounds.

But... there were other markets:

BILLBOARD TOP 100 (1967)

1. To Sir With Love  Lulu 
2.  Light My Fire  The Doors
3.  Windy  The Association
4.  Ode To Billie Joe  Bobbie Gentry
5.  The Letter  The Box Tops
6.  Daydream Believer  The Monkees
7.  Somethin' Stupid  Nancy Sinatra And Frank Sinatra
8.  Happy Together  The Turtles
9.  I Heard It Through The Grapevine  Gladys Knight &The Pips
10.  Incense And Peppermints  Strawberry Alarm Clock
11.  Groovin'  The Young Rascals
12.  Can't Take My Eyes Off You  Frankie Valli
13.  Little Bit O'soul  The Music Explosion
14.  Respect  Aretha Franklin
15.  The Rain, The Park &Other Things  The Cowsills
16.  Never My Love  The Association
17.  Hello Goodbye  The Beatles
18.  Tell It Like It Is  Aaron Neville
19.  Come Back When You Grow Up  Bobby Vee
20.  I Was Made To Love Her  Stevie Wonder

[Andrew G. Doe]

Well, my theory is that the group had their problems with the 3-movement concept. 

You're assuming here that any such concept ever existed before 2003. BW himself has stated many times that the 3rd movement was totally a 21st century creation.

The only source for any kind of 3-movement notion before 2000 is Peter Reum, who stated that Brian told him this in 1982/83. I respect Peter way too much to even consider that he made this up... but in 1982/3, Brian was in terrible shape, and of course if you throw him a leading question, he'll just go along with you.

[KokoMoses]

"As for the Jan Wenner, it's quicker to type his name than 'assorted hipper-than-thou types, underground press writers, attendees of Monterey Pop, etc"

Haha! Pure genius!

As for the previous question:

Why is there this myth that Mike was only capable or writing "fun fun fun" lyrics and absolutely nothing else?

It's beyond silly!

Best 5 Mike lyrics? (not in any order really)

1. Warmth Of The Sun
2. Big Sur
3. She Knows Me Too Well
4. Good Vibrations
5. Sound Of Free

[Jcc]

Well, my theory is that the group had their problems with the 3-movement concept.

Do you think the group ever heard about a 3-movement concept? If so, was their opinion even asked? If so, why hasn't anyone talked about it till BWPS? It seems to be a very important issue to be erased from history like that. It's not like Smile is a black box, we know that there was a confrontation between ML and VDP about Cabinessence lyrics. Brian gave that interview about the group almost breaking up over the decision to self 'Surf's Up' (whatever he meant). It doesn't make sense.

My source is Peter Reum's posts at this link:
http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,2325.160.html

I think it makes sense, though.

[Dancing Bear]

Well, my theory is that the group had their problems with the 3-movement concept.

Do you think the group ever heard about a 3-movement concept? If so, was their opinion even asked? If so, why hasn't anyone talked about it till BWPS? It seems to be a very important issue to be erased from history like that. It's not like Smile is a black box, we know that there was a confrontation between ML and VDP about Cabinessence lyrics. Brian gave that interview about the group almost breaking up over the decision to self 'Surf's Up' (whatever he meant). It doesn't make sense.

My source is Peter Reum's posts at this link:
http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,2325.160.html

I think it makes sense, though.

The theory that alien creatures abducted Brian and sucked out his hitmaker abilities in mid'66 makes sense, too. How could a guy with the run he had from 62 to 66 suddenly lose his midas touch?

Of course, it doesn't mean it happened.