Was Mike Love *Right*?

[Wilsonista]

Well, my theory is that the group had their problems with the 3-movement concept. 

The only source for any kind of 3-movement notion before 2000 is Peter Reum, who stated that Brian told him this in 1982/83. I respect Peter way too much to even consider that he made this up... but in 1982/3, Brian was in terrible shape, and of course if you throw him a leading question, he'll just go along with you.

I thought that it was Brian who (off-the-cuff) offered that he inteneded SMiLE to be 3 movements in the midst of a completely different conversation about Gershwin. Sure doesn't sound like Peter was throwing him a leading question.

[Jcc]

Actually, Dancing Bear, what you describe is not uncommon.  We attorneys refer to the experience as "Law School" 

Seriously, though, you should look up Peter Reum's posts (there's not that many of them so you can read them all in about 20-30 minutes).  He has some amazing insights into Brian's mental illness and how it affected his music from 1967 onward.  The gist of it is that Brian never lost the ability to make music, but as his illness worsened, the ability to concentrate and actually create a finished product was lost.  Like a lot of mentally ill people who are misdiagnosed or go without treatment, Brian tried to self-medicate using amphetamines (and later cocaine) and this made his symptoms even worse.  I think Reum described the high of cocaine would make BW normal for about 30 minutes, and then he would crash and feel unspeakably worse.  And, even if the sources of cocaine were cut off, Brian would find something else to self-medicate with.

I would trust Reum's statements because he's essentially a primary source.  He's spoken with all of the individuals involved, including Brian, and has a great deal of professional experience dealing with people like him.  He's not just some schmuck (like all of us) who posts on a message board.

[Sheriff John Stone]

My theory is that the group distrusted the 3-movement concept, but didn't really have a problem with the standard 11-12 song format.  The problem was, Brian couldn't find a way to condense and separate his original vision into distinct 2-3 minute pop tunes.

You made some good points, Jcc, and I agree with your overall excellent post. However, I'm not as sold on the "three movement" SMiLE as you are. I need more - anything actually - than Peter Reum's posts to sway me in that direction. This is where I have a problem with the group rejecting a "three movement" SMiLE, if there was indeed one...

The band could've "separated" the songs for the use as singles or live performances. I know it's not the same thing, but a live album is "linked" by applause, and singles can be edited out of a live album. The Beach Boys' Party songs were "linked" by (fake) party chatter, and "Barbara Ann" was successfully "pulled" from that album. Another scenario could've been Brian recording special single versions of songs that might've been entrenched in a movement, almost like he did with the "Heroes And Villains" single. You don't think it would've sounded that way on a SMiLE album, do you?

As far as live performance of the SMiLE songs that were part of a movement, I think the band (including Brian) could've figured out a way to "extract" songs from a movement to perform live. Compose an intro here, an ending there; doesn't sound too difficult, especially at the level Brian was operating on in 1966-67. Not all of the Beach Boys songs that were performed live in 1966 began or ended the exact way as the single or album versions. They were performing medleys even back then!

You stated that "Brian couldn't find a way to condense and separate his vision into distinct 2-3 minute pop tunes." Don't you have that backwards? The prevailing theory is that Brian's biggest problem was piecing the songs and segments TOGETHER in a way that made sense and satisfied his vision. He had most of the songs finished; he just didn't know what to do with 'em. Wouldn't it have been EASIER to just take each individual SMiLE song and end them, either with his glorious fades or by a sudden cut? That's what he did with every previous Beach Boys' studio album. Heck, it was easy to "individualize" the songs; how long did it take him to do Smiley Smile?

Late Edit: I was just thinking of the re-mixed "Fallin' In Love", and the way the new intro was "grafted" onto it. That's kinda what I was referring to when I mentioned taking tracks out of a movement and creating new intros or endings. I know technology is more advanced now, but that wouldn't have been too difficult for Brian Wilson.

[Dancing Bear]

Actually, Dancing Bear, what you describe is not uncommon.  We attorneys refer to the experience as "Law School" 

Seriously, though, you should look up Peter Reum's posts (there's not that many of them so you can read them all in about 20-30 minutes).  He has some amazing insights into Brian's mental illness and how it affected his music from 1967 onward.  The gist of it is that Brian never lost the ability to make music, but as his illness worsened, the ability to concentrate and actually create a finished product was lost.  Like a lot of mentally ill people who are misdiagnosed or go without treatment, Brian tried to self-medicate using amphetamines (and later cocaine) and this made his symptoms even worse.  I think Reum described the high of cocaine would make BW normal for about 30 minutes, and then he would crash and feel unspeakably worse.  And, even if the sources of cocaine were cut off, Brian would find something else to self-medicate with.

I would trust Reum's statements because he's essentially a primary source.  He's spoken with all of the individuals involved, including Brian, and has a great deal of professional experience dealing with people like him.  He's not just some schmuck (like all of us) who posts on a message board.

Look again, I'm there in that thread, in the page you quoted. I remember it very well.

What can I say? You believe what you choose to believe, and you trust who you choose to trust.

[Sheriff John Stone]

Perhaps this would be a good place to list the top 5 Mike Love songs where he was the primary or solo lyricist.

WOTS and what other 4 songs?

1. The Warmth Of The Sun
2. Good Vibrations
3. I Get Around
4. When I Grow Up (To Be A Man)
5. Only With You
Bonus Track: Little St. Nick
Hidden Track: She Knows Me Too Well
Unreleased Track: Big Sur (early version)
Uncredited Track: Back In The U.S.S.R. 

[Jason]

IIRC, Let The Wind Blow was almost entirely Mike, both music and lyrics.

[Jcc]

Look again, I'm there in that thread, in the page you quoted. I remember it very well.

What can I say? You believe what you choose to believe, and you trust who you choose to trust.

I hear what you're saying, but I have no evidence not to trust him.  Unless of course you know something I don't.  The problem with message boards is that anyone could be hiding behind the handle.

[Dancing Bear]

Look again, I'm there in that thread, in the page you quoted. I remember it very well.

What can I say? You believe what you choose to believe, and you trust who you choose to trust.

I hear what you're saying, but I have no evidence not to trust him.  Unless of course you know something I don't.  The problem with message boards is that anyone could be hiding behind the handle.

Nah, I'm just another schmuck. By the way, forget about that alien creatures theory. I was pulling your leg. 

[MBE]

JCC I am going out on a limb here and I hope I don't offend anyone. To be brutally honest I also need more then just Peter's word to back up anything so heavy as a three movement Smile. I also highly doubt Brian was a cocaine addict in 1967 . I don't think Reum makes stuff up maliciously but if you are going to make statements that go against generally accepted data, you have to back it up with evidence beyond a drugged out 1982 Brian. He hadn't met Brian or the group in the sixties so he had to go on second hand info himself. Now if he dug up sessions tapes, business journals, or other even people saying Brian was coked out in 1967 after the three pronged Smile was abandoned, then I would give it more weight. Not meaning to offend Peter or anyone here but I gotta be honest and say I am not convinced. Like Domenic Priore has done in his books, Peter's statements were worded in a way that pass off some very controversial things as hard, cold fact. I personally think they are theory with a pro Brian anti Beach Boys bias.
I don't dislike these guys, and in fact have had some very nice interaction with Priore, but I don't subscribe to the Brian and five a-holes conclusion. In fact it's Peter who made that quote in DAG 1.

I hope I don't sound arrogant about this and I think if I remember correct I even questioned him direct about this on here. So it's not like I have an agenda that's hidden. I openly state my considered opinion is that  Brian and the Beach Boys worked together better from 67-71 then anytime since.  To me that is because except for a brief period in 1968  Brian was in better shape from 67-70 then anytime since. The thing is I have interview tapes I conducted plus archive data, photos, and vintage interviews to back up my case. We forget again and again that Brian was a hit maker through 1969. First of all "Heroes", "Darlin", and "Do It Again' did  pretty well domestically.  In the rest of the world they did even better. Add "Break Away" to the list of international hits and we see that Brian's music did not fall off at all. The American public just had the wrong idea about the Beach Boys. If he or the group had lost the plot completely they wouldn't have remained as popular as they did.

[donald]

In 1967 and beyond a couple of years, I grew away from the Beach Boys....I was growing up and was focused on the avalanche of new music coming down.  I bought Hendrix, Airplane, Byrds, and the money was gone.  I just couldn't get enough of the new.  I didn't have time to bother with anything from earlier inthe decade.....INCLUDING the Beatles.  Seargent Pepper was hyped so much I finally gave it a listen...found it in a cutout bend in Akron Ohio not very long after it was released.   But I did finally tire of the hipsters on drugs music and was driving in the car one day and the radio was playing Good Vibrations.  A couple of days later I hard a new release......a most beautiful song about music with stunning vocals and production.........So with the release of I Can Hear Music and 20/20 ...I was back as a BB fan and have never looked back.   

I have a suspicion that this is what happened to the BeachBoys in the later sixties.  People like me, who were real music junkies....were inundated with tempting new sounds and ideas and didn't have the money or time or interest in the old stuff.

But fortunately, the BeachBoys survived, and were there for me when I was ready to listen again.

[MBE]

donald that's a good story and it gives a valid perspective as to why the Beach Boys were not selling as well in the USA. Though "I Get Around" was big, it was really with "Barbara Ann" that they broke big overseas. Thus in say 1969 they were still a fairly "new" group.

[Steve Mayo]

donald...i think there is a lot of truth in what you posted. same thing happened with me. when i think of post 1966 singles by the group...i can hear music is at the top of my list also. have always said that over the years. i think, simply put, you hit the nail on the head about their late 60's decline.....as far as the general music listening/buying public was concerned.

[Cam Mott]

I thought the Wild Honey single was terrific, nailing both of my musical obsessions of the day: Soul [blue-eyedin this case] and what we called Psychedelic. It stood right there with the most progressive Pop of the day, imo, and Windchimes on the B sides was, and still is to me, one the most progressive/"avant garde" songs ever pressed as a single.

[carlydenise]

 Brian undeniably was the most major player in the band in the early years.  He wrote the songs, figured out the harmonies, etc etc etc, Mike didn't put enough imput to be considered the major player IMHO. Was Brian sexually abused? I was not there,  but I don't get the feeling Murry was an abuser.  A tweaked neurotic stage mom that paled mommie dearest, yes..but not a molester, he wanted the boys to be successful and he did what he had to, to make sure they stayed in the spotlight' they were young kids, they needed some kind of figure to keep them on the right track, he just had a terrible way of doing so.   Mike, Carl, Bruce, Al and possibly Denny had alot on the line, they all had families by then, mansions, expensive cars and toys that had to be paid for, and especially Mike, because he not only had this stuff, but also alimony payments as well as child support.  Brian was acting more and more bizarre,  I am sure they were all scared, and keeping with the formula would have been the most logical thing to do at the time, as fans were still into the music and that was the sure way to keep the profit margins up.  They could have kept with the formula, right along with putting out Brian's beautiful music.  Was Mike "right"?  Way back when, yeah, probably...but all his litigation and nonsense since then  is not "right" at all.

[Outie 315]

 
Mike  Love was one hell of a front man , still gives the high 5's

 Look.........

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbW53wanNPY