Was Mike Love *Right*?

[Naive Teen Idol]

Inspired by the "Mike Love's H&V rant on Lei'd in Hawaii recording" thread, which you can find here: http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,7302.0.html and which discusses how said rant may well have been scripted by Brian as a joke about the tensions in the band.

We all know the popular storyline about the BB's and why Smile disintegrated -- that Brian was a genius, the band didn't understand him and Mike was an untalented bully who didn't want to "f*&k with the formula."

But is that really the case?

Let's start by acknowledging this: Brian was a really, really messed up, immature kid that a whole lot of people depended on.  But let's follow it by acknowledging this: that none of us will ever know how utterly impossible the situation that presented probably was to deal with. 

Don't get me wrong -- I love, love, LOVE the man's music.  No pop artist touches me like he did with his voice and his melodies -- it's not even close.  And there's no question that there was plenty of appalling behavior in this band to fill out a season's worth of Behind the Musics.

But as we now understand the larger scope of the band's story, isn't it it time to acknowledge how hard it must have been for these guys--some of whom probably would have been pumping gas without this meal ticket--to deal with Brian's emotional state?  Tony Asher's quotes strike me as the most telling -- and sound pretty in keeping with what others have said.  There's never been a hint of ego with Tony that I can see -- just somebody who was looking at a kid (23 y/o, yes?) and was fairly appalled by what he saw when the matter at hand was anything but music.

And can you blame Brian?  Yes and no.  I mean, the kid was trying to tap into his insecure emotional state to create while dealing with being the center of a multi-million dollar operation from his late teens onward.  I can't remotely imagine what that would have entailed...especially given what his father clearly put him through (and what he might have that we don't know -- I've always wondered if that "lifelong hangup" Leaf writes about him confessing to Audree was sexual abuse).

But even still, putting yourself in the guys' shoes, that must have been absolutely BRUTAL to deal with.  On one hand, yes, they were getting laid 24/7 in England touring Pet Sounds to come back to columnated ruins domino.  But on the other was this guy who you all depend on moving so far, so fast.  It's easy to look at how crazy the 60's got today and say, "How couldn't the BB's have known Smile would have eclipsed Sgt. Pepper?" -- but hey, Sgt. Pepper wasn't out yet.  It wasn't as if that was so obvious in 1966.  This was only a year removed from "I'm So Young," six months from "Wouldn't It Be Nice?" -- songs about the most traditional institution ever: marriage.  Most of the band members have said on the record that they thought the new music was brilliant -- but not a little scary in that it was so unfamiliar and so advanced.  And more importantly, it was going to be very weird to their fans, most of whom thought of the Beach Boys as a very safe, responsible band your parents could trust you with.

Now, regarding Mike...

Yes, Mike was a mere entertainer. 

Yes, he was less than 1% of 1% of Brian musically -- if that.

Yes, he's clearly a GOP-loving, meditating, preening jerk of a human being. 

Yes, yes, yes.

YES!

But...Mike also had an undeniable nose for the marketplace and asserted--correctly!--that the Beach Boys would not be accepted by their fans unless they brought them along with them.  For that matter, I'm always amazed that for all the hate he gets, Mike's actual quotes kind of defy his reputed persona -- for instance, that H&V was the last "dynamic track" Brian wrote (ie, he liked it).  This guy clearly wanted the BB's to be as famous, popular and at the cultural center of pop music as anyone.  But it just so happened that the guy who was going to take him there was almost fatally unstable.

Some people will want to blame the prevailing "Mike Is Evil" narrative on David Leaf -- and that may be fair.  But I think Leaf did the world a major service by singling Brian out, putting his plight in some context.  I'm sure it's overly slanted -- but as of 1977 when he wrote the first edition of his book, most people had no idea whatsoever what Brian had accomplished or gone through.  It may not be too beyond the pale to suggest that absent Leaf (or someone like him) Brian may never have "finished" SMiLE -- which, if nothing else, has quite a bit of historical value.

I've been obsessed with this band for 15 years -- and honestly, I feel like I can see everyone's side pretty clearly here: this was a TOUGH guy to deal with.

And so I ask you, SmileySmilers...

Was Mike Love...*right*?

[TonyW]

...... 20/20 hindsight is a wonderful thing .......

[MBE]

Good post I will try to answer some of your questions.
I don't think Brian was molested. One it would of come out by now, and two there were a lot of good things about Murry. I plainly don't think he had it in him to do something like that. Mike Love has indicated that a few of the worst stories about him were borne of Brian's mental illness. As Mike has stated openly that he hated the guy I doubt he would defend him without reason.

It's not black and white with Brian and Mike. Both could be inconsiderate, and both could be kind. Things cooled off for a while after Smile. Brian's relationship with Mike and the others was quite good during projects like "Smiley Smile", "Wild Honey", "Friends", and "Sunflower". Smile did not destroy Brian, the Beach Boys, or their interaction together. Brian may have let the others have more say, but Smile or not it was going to happen sooner or later with the advent of stereo and the blossoming of the others talents. Brian's retreat and decline was slow and not always steady.

Landy, Leaf, and Melinda despised Mike. Take that for what you will but I think that the people "in charge" of Brian have caused a lot of tension. At the same time most of Mike's lawsuits are merda, not counting the songwriting credits which Brian himself has stated was valid. Frankly I think most of the court antics stem out of Mike being bitter, and I would blame Leaf for at least a part of that. He may have praised Brian, but always at the expense of others. If he understood the depth of Brian's talent, he did and does not get how important the Beach Boys interaction with Brian had been creatively nor socially.

I don't agree that
 Mike was a mere entertainer. 

he was less than 1% of 1% of Brian musically -- if that.

he's clearly a GOP-loving, meditating, preening jerk of a human being. 

First he was a good lyricist sometimes (as on Today) an excellent one. His voice defined the band as much as Brian's in the early days, and he was a superb bass vocalist when it came to the harmonies.

Second he often led the Beach Boys down the wrong path after 1975, but what he did until then shouldn't be overlooked. Nor should it be overlooked that he now does many shows with a challenging setlist including things like "Here Today" and "Their Hearts Were Full Of Spring". Was he in Brian's league of course not, but he was part of what made the Beach Boys great.

Not that it should matter but Mike's enviremental views have led him to not always support the GOP. As far as being a jerk of a human being, at times he is, but after learning all he did for David Marks over the years I for one think he has a very endearing side too.

Lastly was Mike Love right? Well other then resenting the fact that he wasn't chosen to write the lyrics I don't think he hated Pet Sounds at all. With Smile he may have (rightly) disliked many who were around Brian, but at very least he did his fair share of work. For all the objections he made about "Cabbinessence" he did his part, and did it well. I think that we have to realize that Brian's word was law. Even into the home studio era everything else would be dropped when Brian wanted to work. In 1967 Mike simply did not have enough power to stop Smile and I don't think he really tried. Smiley Smile proves that he was OK with releasing some music even more truly bizarre then the majority of Smile.

I really like Smile especially the 1966-67 tapes. The melodies, the production, and the vocals themselves are amazing. Some of the lyrics are too, but it doesn't tug at my heart like most Beach Boys music. It's music that I marvel at, music that is truly unique, but it lacks some of the personal aspects of Brian's best work. "Surf's Up" is a superb piece of music, but other then being affected by it's beauty I don't relate to it like I do say "Caroline No", or even "Girl Don't Tell Me". It's not a lesser song then those two examples, structurally it's mind blowing, but it doesn't have that certain quality of relatability. That is what I think Mike was trying to get across. Still I think Smile should have been finished, but IMHO the reason it wasn't is because Brian himself didn't want it out.

[Jason]

Two THREADS in one night. God love 'em.

Where to begin?

Indeed, Brian did then and does now have more than his share of problems that he deals with daily. He is most definitely the victim of a stunted mental and emotional growth, mainly due as we all know to the stress of life in Hawthorne before the Beach Boys even existed. That so-called "adult/child" syndrome. Throw in the fact that within a year of forming the Beach Boys, the band were literally road dogs, Brian was stepping up more and more with the writing and production and it became plainly obvious to Michael, Carl, Dennis, David, and eventually Al that Brian was the Man In Charge and they were going by his whims as and when they came to him. If he were to say "jump", their response would be "how high?" with no exceptions. That was that. Period. No ifs, ands, or buts. Brian was the one responsible for the sonic magic and they knew it. Of course, the band, as musicians and singers, while amateurish, were not exactly worth shaking a stick at either, since as the years went on they became more and more adept at interpreting Brian's increasingly more difficult compositions live and in the studio if they were on the sessions.

But when you're someone like Brian, with the incredible baggage of his (in a word) hellish childhood on his shoulders, the reason for his suffering as their manager, the pressure from the record company to write, arrange, record, and then perform live a new smash hit every six weeks and write, arrange, record, and then perform a new LP every three to five months, the burdens of the road, and his relationship with Marilyn burning like a kerosene fire, by December of 1964, the breakdown could not possibly have been avoided. It was GOING to happen. The man was, quite simply, overworked and overtroubled, both personally and professionally. While retiring from the road allowed him the benefit to just concentrate on the music, which we all know was and is his passion, there was the OTHER PROBLEM - at least, what he considered the REAL PROBLEM. They were, and still are today called The Beatles.

From a personal standpoint, I prefer the Beach Boys, but for someone like Brian Wilson, leader of the then-preeminent pop band from the United States of America in 1964, the Beatles were not just a challenge, they equaled sudden death. Brian felt then that he needed that crucial right cross in order to keep the Beach Boys commercial and viable as a brand and as a representation of their own respective musical and vocal talents. He owed them that much - sure, Brian could have just gone out as Brian Wilson, but it was a family situation. He had to look out for Dennis and Carl, as their flesh and blood, he looked to and respected Michael as a sounding board for ideas, and Al was his brother from another mother, so to speak. The Beatles were always evolving, trying new things, reaching new highs, with EVERY NEW RELEASE. Brian felt that it was an absolute necessity that he do the exact same thing for his own band. Brian was not going to go down easy, and if he did, he'd go down swinging.

1965 is the turning point. Brian has come off of All Summer Long and the Christmas LP, and on both albums he's done work with considerably larger groups of musicians, and to that point, these were his most complicated arrangements (at least the Christmas album cuts he did arrange) and productions. Today! is where he begins to find new ways to keep a fun tone to the music while at the same time developing a different personality for his band and his songwriting. Brian and Michael in 1965 were writing pop with great hooks and VERY clever, touching lyrics. This all fits, in the band's eyes. The Party! album comes and goes, the band and Brian know it's just a way to buy time for "the next album".

The band then is treated to Brian's new productions in early 1966.

Well, it sure doesn't sound like the old stuff, indeed!

Pet Sounds was, is, and always will be a work of art, and one of the two or three best albums in rock music. But coming off the tails of stuff like Help Me, Rhonda, California Girls, and the shocker of Barbara Ann on the charts within the last six months, I can personally relate to the feelings prevalent at the time among the rest of the band. It was just THAT radical of a jump. Sure, it's great music, but, Barbara Ann was our last hit. People might buy this new album and expect a new album of breezy pop songs, which is clearly not what they're being given. We don't think we could be accepted singing these deep lyrics - they'd laugh at us! We're the number one surfing band in the nation. Our fans won't understand it.

Now, of course, the $64,000 question.

Did Michael then and now actively dislike the material?

Pet Sounds...well, Michael objected to some portions of Hang On To Your Ego, hence the brief rewrite into I Know There's An Answer. And of course "it doesn't sound like the old stuff."

Then Smile comes along. We have so many versions of who liked what about Smile going around anymore, I've lost count; however, I will try to pick up a few -

Brian says Mike hated it.
Brian says the group hated it.
Brian says Al and Dennis liked it.
Carl says he loved it.
Dennis said it made Pet Sounds stink.
Michael objected to a single line from Cabinessence.
Al didn't like making animal noises.
Bruce loved the fragments.

And they were ALL SCARED SHITLESS.

Either way, Smile was abandoned. The group didn't force Brian into anything. Brian pulled the plug. He was thoroughly spent. It wasn't appropriate for the Beach Boys, as he felt, although he considered it a Beach Boys album. He just gave it up. Brian doesn't blame anyone else for Smile collapsing but him, except in Beautiful Dreamer, where he blames Michael. Take that as you will, but please consider the quote that follows before the Brian fellatio is thrown around.

"I had to destroy Smile because it was destroying me." - Brian Wilson, 1976.

[absinthe_boy]

20/20 hindsight is fantastic.

One thing I don't entirely blame Mike for is "son't f**k with the formula".

Although I love the fact that Brian was and to some extent still is an experimental composer looking to expand away from mere 'pop music'....the fact is that in 1966 Mike had no way of knowing that 40+ years later he'd still be on stage singing Beach Boys songs. At that point in time pop music careers were assumed to be short, and Mike had every reason to worry that if they changed musical direction and the hits dried up that the whole band could end up pumping gas and flipping burgers for the next generation of musical superstars.

If you'd told 25 year old Mike Love that he'd still be making a good living out of those early 60's songs he'd probably assume you'd smoked some bad weed.

However...it turned out that Brian was right in two ways. First off, Brian himself needed to do something more grand than simply write great surf/car/girl songs. Second, he was right that the band needed to evolve.

[donald]

Good thread with some nicely expressed opinion.   It seems that time may have finally  provided room for objectivity and perspective regarding these two guys.

It took me many years as a Beach Boys fan and seeing Brian solo a couple of times  and Mike with his fine new band to realize what pop music giants each of them are.   One could list, a very long list, the accomplishments and mistakes made by each.  Were their contributions equal?  Maybe, maybe not.  Ingredients in any fine product are seldom in equal portions.

Was Mike right?  I just think he was Mike.    What we have seen is what we have gotten.  Do you like it?

[Fun Is In]

I've had the experience of knowing a couple people who went from highly functioning and very bright to being people who hear voices in their heads telling them horrible and impossible things. It has been very difficult for them, their friends and their families. Most friends and much family can't hang on for the difficult ride.

Unless Brian is/has lied when he's said that he hears such voices in his head and unless "Goodbye Surfing, Hello God" is a pack of lies about Brian's mental state at the time that SMiLE disintegrated you really need to take the severity of his mental illness at the time into consideration any time you want to analyze what happened.  Normal life can become totally impossible except during limited remissions, when you can function more or less normally.

This kind of organic disease isn't brought on by horrible parents, horrible cousins, or horrible record companies, though all of those will certainly make it more difficult for the individual to cope with their illness and their life.  When the "mind gangsters" are out to get you, "don't foda with the formula" could be the least of your problems.

 

[Andrew G. Doe]

Good thread with some nicely expressed opinion.   It seems that time may have finally  provided room for objectivity and perspective regarding these two guys.

It took me many years as a Beach Boys fan and seeing Brian solo a couple of times  and Mike with his fine new band to realize what pop music giants each of them are.   One could list, a very long list, the accomplishments and mistakes made by each.  Were their contributions equal?  Maybe, maybe not.  Ingredients in any fine product are seldom in equal portions.

Was Mike right?  I just think he was Mike.    What we have seen is what we have gotten.  Do you like it?

I feel that, in many people's minds, Mike's biggest fault is that he's not Brian. I think that once we can get past that, then we'll be getting somewhere.

[A Million Units In Jan!]

I have to say though, the animosity towards Mike has lightened up a bit.
When I first got into reading articles on the Beach Boys, and going to message boards and all that good stuff (which was about 10 years ago), virtually nobody ever said good things about Mike. To somebody who's just starting to get into the BB's, when everything you read and hear about somebody is negative, that's the way you're going to feel. Then, when I got into SMiLE, and read LLVS, that pretty much sealed the deal for me.

However, over time you start to see things differently. There are things about Mike I don't care for, and at the same I don't believe that Brian is  the harmless victim that I once thought he was. Mike by himself didn't cause SMiLE to fail. He contributed, just like the other guys did (and Brian himself). It's ridiculous to go with this Priore school of thought that Mike Love destroyed Brian Wilson. I just don't buy it.

[petsite]

I like this thread because I have been a fan since 1972 and the wisdom over much of that time is Brian - good the band - bad. Carl and Brian have had their outs and Carl was envious of Brian's talent. I think he liked it when he controlled the band. But Brian's comeback left him in an awkward spot. Give control back to Brian, or treat him as just another band member. He went somewhere in between.

Can you really, really imagine what kind of ride all this must have been? To be rich rich rich by 15 (like Carl). We wonder why the group didn't seem to follow Brian down any path he chose in 1966. I think they did pretty well. Remember, NONE OF THEM WAS OVER 26! Remember when you were 26? Did you make rational and carefully reasoned desicions? I am 50 and I only started doing that...well....last year!

But to say that this is a good guy, this is a bad guy simply because of who you side with and who you have put into a certain box makes no sense. I have ALOT of problems with Mike. One that burns me to this day is that I think Mike could have been a really taleneted lyricst. He was working his way there. Then he decided to be "Surfer Joe" and talk about the honeys and woodies and there went the lyrics. THat is my biggest beef with him. The lawsuits sucked, but like the songwritting one, that needed to be done. Murray was a pr**k and cheated EVERYONE....and ON everyone. And Brian's reaction when he became a huge star was to act like a huge star (sometimes) because he could walk up to you and say "Your new song sucks!" and everyone would say how honest he was. I am sorry, that is just uncalled for. Or to say (as he did) no, I am not interested in your record. They were all a little on the pr**k side. But what beatiful music they made together. That is the only real important point. The rest is just window dressing.

[Wilsonista]

Where to start.


I don't think Mike was "right". The pop marketplace was shifting towards the progressive. That is a fact. Even the Monkees were going psychdelic and enjoying commercial sucess. And one didn't need to go overboard either.  Bands like the Beatles and the Stones were still able to go "out there" and still be accessible. The top groups of the era were able to maintain their popularity through the psychedelic era. Why that didn't work for the BB was down to the length of time between Pet Sounds and Smiley and Smiley's own uncommerciality (I'm of the  "Smiley as Brian's F-U to the Boys" school of thought. "You wanted acid-tinged garbage? I'll show you acid-tinged garbage!") Mike to this day won't admit that he was wrong!  In Catch A Wave, he scoffed at the idea that progressive ideas could sell.

Of course that's my own prejudice, I'm sure. Out of all of the figures in the Beach Boys, Mike is the one that consistently rubs me the wrong way.  I can see why Brian as a person would rub people the wrong way, but because of his illness, I'm more willing to give him the benefit of the doubt than I am to Mike.   But one thing is certain: Mike's songwriting direction since the 70's and how he has lead the band undermine the "Mike as misunderstood creative force" argument because his songs on MIU, Still Cruisin and SIP unwittingly prove David Leaf's portrayal correct.

[Dancing Bear]

Mike's ALWAYS right. No Mike, no Beach Boys, and that's the undeniable truth.

[Sheriff John Stone]

I first read this Mike Love thread this morning on my way to court - I had jury duty - how ironic. Actually, you could write an entire book on this topic alone.... Most of what I was gonna say has alrerady been posted very well above, so I apologize if I repeat some points. I only want to focus on a couple of them.

Almost everything Mike did from 1961-1966 was right on the money (no pun intended); there's not much debate on that. Naive Teen Idol, I respect your opinion, but I think you are being NAIVE, and I don't think you give Mike enough credit for what he DID contribute. I never like to read that analogy about, "he'd still be pumping gas if not for...." While we have no way of knowing that, couldn't that analogy/projection apply to almost every member of a rock and roll band who relied on the talent(s) of a leader, including some of the OTHER Beach Boys.

That being said, Mike Love was wrong about SMiLE then, and he's wrong about SMiLE now. He didn't "get" SMiLE then, and he still doesn't "get it". Which mystifies me. Mike was and is the most sophisticated Beach Boy, who always appeared/dressed "arty", spoke articulately, and seemed to TRY to portray that sophisticated image, rejecting the stereotypical "surfer mentality". Unfortunately, that attitude was rarely found in the confines of The Beach Boys, and Mike was many times responsible for those confines. Mike failed to accept SMiLE as a work of art, oh he knew it, but he couldn't accept it. Yes, there could've still been a couple singles from SMiLE. Yes, they could and eventually did perform much of it in concert. And, yes, that phase of Brian's would pass, making SMiLE a temporary "stop" if you will. But, Mike just didn't see it that way, not HIS Beach Boys. Not his fan's Beach Boys. Mike couldn't let go of that image, not even for a few months, and he still hasn't 40 years later.
 
But, I don't hold it against him, at least the way he behaved back then. There was so much on the line - hit records, live audiences, future record contracts, popularity in a dog-eat-dog business, Mike wanting to be the lyricist, Mike wanting to protect Brian from the hangers on, etc. Mike was still relatively young, maybe a little naive, artistically challenged, there was a lot of sh-- going down - HEY, I PROBABLY WOULD'VE FELT/DONE THE SAME THING AS MIKE. Like somebody said above, 20/20 hindsight is very clear, isn't it. If you're honest, I wonder how many of you would've felt and acted like Mike did.

There is one area where I will defend Mike, or at least I don't blame him entirely, and that is the "going back" period from 1974- onward. If you want to say that Mike led that path, I might agree, but just a little. If you want to "blame" Mike for that direction, I will never agree. During that period (post Endless Summer onward), you were dealing with a group of money hungry, financially irresponsible, divorced, child support paying, alcoholic, drug-addicted, confused musicians. AND THEY WERE IN IT FOR THE MONEY. They wanted The Beach Boys for the money. All of them. They saw an opportunity to "cash in" and they went for it.

So why single out Mike love for the "oldies" direction. Things like setlists and album projects were DISCUSSED AND VOTED ON. The Beach Boys were not a dictatorship; Mike Love was not a dictator. How many times have you read how Mike was not respected because he didn't play an instrument, didn't write music, couldn't sing like the rest. So, why in the world would the other guys support Mike, go along with him, vote with him, GIVE their vote to Mike, to someone as musically-challenged as Mike, for matters as important as setlists and albums? Unless they were in it for the money. It makes no sense, unless the other guys agreed with Mike's direction - behind closed doors, that is -  only to say something different in public. I don't think enough is written about what went on INSIDE the Beach Boys, inside the board room, at the table, how the votes went down. I would love to read the minutes to those meetings. I think it would be eye-opening to see how our heroes voted. I definitely think Mike would be exonerated. Somebody above mentioned how his opinion of Mike has changed in some areas. Maybe the record, the real record, would show that Mike voted on a certain direction, but that so did the rest of The Beach Boys. Wouldn't that be interesting for history's sake?

[the captain]

Nice.

[Wilsonista]

Mike's ALWAYS right. No Mike, no Beach Boys, and that's the undeniable truth.

Not according to the guy in your avatar...

[Mr. Cohen]

It's almost like a cover of a Stephen King book. To think, all of those guys backstabbing Brian. Look at Mike, there, with his head in his hands! Could he really be Brian's evil tormentor?

[the captain]

They all look evil to me. Especially Al, though. Yeah ... I see you there, Jardine, your smug little murderous dentist face, arms crossed, midget stature ... I see you.

[Jason]

Of course that's my own prejudice, I'm sure. Out of all of the figures in the Beach Boys, Mike is the one that consistently rubs me the wrong way.  I can see why Brian as a person would rub people the wrong way, but because of his illness, I'm more willing to give him the benefit of the doubt than I am to Mike.   But one thing is certain: Mike's songwriting direction since the 70's and how he has lead the band undermine the "Mike as misunderstood creative force" argument because his songs on MIU, Still Cruisin and SIP unwittingly prove David Leaf's portrayal correct.

I think hindsight has proven that Brian has done more to destroy the Beach Boys than Michael could ever dream of doing. Remember, Michael didn't pull the plug on Smile. Your benefit of the doubt should be directed elsewhere. But you don't get that and you never will. It's ok. All good timin'.

[MBE]

Let me just say in the course of my research I have found a tape of early 1968 interviews with Brian, Mike, and Bruce. Brian (who was interviewed seperately) was articulate, in a good frame of mind, and very pro Beach Boys. He spoke particularly about how much fun Smiley Smile was to make. It wasn't an f off to the band at all. 15 Big Ones may have been a half assed effort from Brian, but the Brian of 1967-68 was a much different persol then the one from 1975-76. It was a much different Beach Boys as well. What people don't seem to get is that Brian and the boys had a long period where they functioned very well as a group. I argue that for much of their first decade this was so.

SJS has a good point about the oldies band era. Al sided with Mike because Carl and Dennis were veering out of control, but the big factor was Brian's regression. Starting with the "Why Do Fool Fall In Love" session Brian was looking to the past for inspiration and his productions lost much of their grandour. Sure Brian had issues, but never before did he truly settle for less then his best. If Brian wanted to move forward as a mature artist you would be hard pressed to find evidence. Now Adult Child had some hints at some interesting progression in the big band sessions, but it seems Mike is guilty there of not supporting it. Only Dennis really continued creatively as he had before and I am sure he and Carl were both somewhat frustrated at the situation. That said Carl certainly wasn't writing strong consistent material, and I think by 1982 he just caved. Even Dennis was less strident against fighting the image as he went into full decline.

All in all my point is that nothing is black and white. Every Beach Boy made some great choices as well as some horrific ones. Though personally he has had it rough, no one can deny that he has consistantly made decisions that made life harder then it had to be. I feel truly bad that he had mental illneses, but I don't pity Brian professinally. The Beach Boys were a great band end of story.

[lance]

i don't think 15 Big Ones was a 'half-assed effort' from Brian at all. A few songs fit that description(Chapel of Love, Back Home) but the rest of them are pretty damn detailed. Problem IMO is some fo the vocals, and also that so many superior songs were left in the can.

um...what are we talking about?

[Dancing Bear]

Mike's ALWAYS right. No Mike, no Beach Boys, and that's the undeniable truth.

Not according to the guy in your avatar...

That bull about fucking messengers doesn't deny my bull, you silly dwarf. 

[AMDG]

“SMiLE” is a work of genius and “Surf’s Up” is the greatest song of the rock era.  With that said I do not begrudge Mike or any of the other Beach Boys for their resistance to SMiLE.  Here they are coming back from a tour and are presented with this partially completed vision that would be impossible to do justice to live (they were still touring as a 4 piece band – 5 if you add in Mike’s sax).  To me the issue was not only the complexity but the fact that Brian did not know how to finish it.  I would have reacted negatively to it as well if I could not discern where it was going (song list, order).

It took software (something that did not exist in 1966-67) and a band that had nothing to lose to finish SMiLE.

Rightly or wrongly I do blame Mike for the direction that the Beach Boys took after the success of Endless Summer.  He came to the forefront and Carl took a step back.  The band was better and more vital under Carl’s leadership. 

As for the votes.  It is my understanding that they were 3 to 2 with Brian siding with Al and Mike.  I am unclear as to whether Carl and Dennis ever bought off on the late 70’s changes to the Beach Boys.

I also blame Mike for this:

http://www.omahasymphony.org/artistsdetail.asp?art=51

“In 1974 Mike Love’s concept album Endless Summer ignited a second generation of Beach Boys fans and stirred a comeback that rocked the music world.”  For that he should be forced to sing “Over and over, The crow cries uncover the cornfield. Over and over, The thresher and hover the wheat field” for an eternity.

[phirnis]

"Mike Love's concept album"? That's ridiculous!

[Outie 315]

 Mike Love *Left* !

[Sheriff John Stone]

As for the votes.  It is my understanding that they were 3 to 2 with Brian siding with Al and Mike.  I am unclear as to whether Carl and Dennis ever bought off on the late 70’s changes to the Beach Boys.

I'm not saying you're right or wrong on the vote issue, but I would like to SEE the voting records for myself, instead of relying on what some people have said, especially the Beach Boys themselves.

The more I read, the more I realize how many times the Beach Boys told, um, untruths. There's just so many contradictions. You almost can't believe anyone anymore. Just check out some of our recent threads; if you dig deep enough, you can disprove a lot of things that were said.