Brian's production tricks: things over looked in BWPS and many Smile playlists

[Wilsonista]

But you just did.

[sofonanm]

I also never got the "original recordings were more dark and that's something the new tracks lack" opinion. Weren't the new tracks dissed for being too close to the original arrangements? I never, ever got those lines of thinking.

It's not that they were "dark" (although that piano and ominous bass part in Child is dark) but there was an unmistakable element in those old recordings that has not been captured on the new recordings. The first time I heard the Bicycle Rider feel on a bootleg, as it burst in after "Rock, rock, roll..." I thought it was mystical, the way it seemed to burst out. Compare that to the same part on BWPS.

The drugs were taken out of Smile for BWPS. 

[Chris Brown]

I also never got the "original recordings were more dark and that's something the new tracks lack" opinion. Weren't the new tracks dissed for being too close to the original arrangements? I never, ever got those lines of thinking.

It's not that they were "dark" (although that piano and ominous bass part in Child is dark) but there was an unmistakable element in those old recordings that has not been captured on the new recordings. The first time I heard the Bicycle Rider feel on a bootleg, as it burst in after "Rock, rock, roll..." I thought it was mystical, the way it seemed to burst out. Compare that to the same part on BWPS.

The drugs were taken out of Smile for BWPS. 

I think "mystical" is a great word to describe it...I remember feeling the exact same thing the first time I heard Bicycle Rider in "Worms."  It was like nothing I had ever heard before, like hearing music from another world.  And it had a menacing quality to it that fit with the message of the song.

On BWPS the same part sounds dull and lifeless...not to stir up this debate again, but I think the fake harpsichord had a lot to do with it.  Even in other cases though, where the same instruments were used, something is missing on that was there on the original sessions (I'm thinking of the piano/bass section in "Child").  Call it dark, call it mystical, whatever...but if you do an A/B comparison, I would think that most anybody could hear what we're all talking about.

[runnersdialzero]

It's cool how some people here seemingly know Brian well enough to call BWPS a cash grab and to know for absolute certain that it was done solely in the name of money. I did not know that so many of you were that close with Brian, his family, and the people who manage his career. What else can you tell us?

[Wirestone]

Really. We're really talking about the sampled harpsichord again.

(Hits head on table.)

[sofonanm]

Really. We're really talking about the sampled harpsichord again.

(Hits head on table.)

It's an important point of discussion! 

Does it cost a lot to rent a harpsichord or something?

[the captain]

Really. We're really talking about the sampled harpsichord again.

(Hits head on table.)

It's an important point of discussion! 

Does it cost a lot to rent a harpsichord or something?

I do recall reading something about Darian saying nobody thought it was that big a deal--that the sound was just as good. I happen to agree with him. While I prefer natural instruments, it's no big deal to me.

[Mr. Cohen]

The biggest mystery to me in the whole 40+ years of Smile lore is... how do people not like "She's Goin' Bald"? I just bring that up because that song has a great example of one of Brian's production tricks, but in this case it's one that most people don't like. Personally, I think that song is a classic. There's that chilled out bohemian beat poet vibe to the first part, the crazy pitch shifting vocals, a great goofy take on old radio dramas, followed by some r 'n' b inspired riffing with weird lyrics with a double meaning ("it's too late mama, ain't nothin' upside your head!"). It's everything the humor aspect of Smile was supposed to be. Actually, I just don't get how people hate anything on Smiley Smile. They must have defective ears. Go to the Smithsonian and borrow Brian Wilson's good ear after Bob Dylan is done using it.

[The Song Of The Grange]

I didn't intend to belittle BWPS.  It is full of wonderful revelations, some restored vintage lyrics and a full collection in one place on one disc.  It was one of the great thrills of my life (no joke) when I brought it home and put it in my CD player (alas, I didn't get to see the live show). And maybe most importantly, Brian Wilson got the world wide acclaim he had coming to him for this material, bringing Smile up to its rightful place with Pet Sounds as a recognized masterwork.  My aim with this topic was to point out that what BWPS is is not what Smile 1967 would have been.  I don't know exactly what it would have been, but we have plenty of circumstantial evidence.  For most people BWPS is good enough.  That's just fine, it is a great listen.  If you are sick of the debate, that's just fine. Don't read posts that have "Smile" in the subject line and your problem is solved.  I look at BWPS as a great tool for further understanding of the lost masterpiece.  But we can't let our protectiveness of BW get in the way of historical research.  BWPS is a gift from god, but Smile would have been much different.  And one of the things that would have been different are these production tricks.  There would have been all kinds of them.  If anyone has access to audio editing software and wants to get a fuzzy glimpse of what 67' Smile would have been, load in the tracks from the box set.  Leave H&V Cantina version as is.  Take the rest of the tracks and give them a little touch of the BW magic.  Maybe a feed back echo leading part 1 of Wind Chimes into part 2.  Maybe add a wind storm sound effect underneath Wind Chimes part 2.  Maybe the song stops dead in its tracks before the big multi-piano fade and you drop in the load noise from Smiley Smile Wind Chimes.  Most, if not all of the seems of these modular sections would have had something special happening.

[Mr. Cohen]

Take the rest of the tracks and give them a little touch of the BW magic.  Maybe a feed back echo leading part 1 of Wind Chimes into part 2.  Maybe add a wind storm sound effect underneath Wind Chimes part 2.  Maybe the song stops dead in its tracks before the big multi-piano fade and you drop in the load noise from Smiley Smile Wind Chimes.  Most, if not all of the seems of these modular sections would have had something special happening.

Yeah, I've tried doing stuff like that, although I lost my mixes (I think, anyway). For example, I slowed down the "bop bop bop bop, doo-doo-doot doo-doo-doot" part of "Vegetables" so that the voices sound like weird trumpets. I also cut "Vegetables" down to a little over 2 minutes and started it with the laughing verse (it's on one of the bootlegs, it just has the group laughing with no lyrics, followed by someone shouting "oh no!" at the end), and I also put a little bit of the famous vegetable argument before it. I put some edited bits of "George Fell Into His French Horn" before "Surf's Up". I use the version of "Wind Chimes" with the weird count in before the horns part in the middle.  One time I tried adding the sound of waves to the background of the "Water Chant". There were some dirty jokes Brian did that I put in front of "Roll Plymouth Rock".

It sounded like at the time the big idea was to add lots of sound effects to the songs. Someone from Brian's circle at the time said that Brian and Van had decided that at some point. There are takes of "Do A Lot" with the sounds of running sinks and brushing teeth, talk of the "Wind Chimes" outro with Brian's idea of the sound of wind chimes overdubbed, and other stuff like that. We know about the animal sounds on "Barnyard". An article from '66 or '67 talks about Brian putting the "Swedish Frog" together with some kind of musical backing, praising the results ("How does he do it?", I think it somebody was quoted in the article as asking). The beginning of "Vegetables" and "Fire (intro)" have some very hippie instrumental jams played over the top. There was going to be yodeling on "Wonderful", and there's that weird "doing, doing, DO-ING!" vocal on "Cabinessence". How about "Workshop"? Plus, the Native American vocal imitations on the "Bicycle Rider" chorus, and that wonderful slide guitar overdub on "Roll Plymouth Rock". And we have the cantina take of "H &V".

Which all brings to mind one of the biggest problem of BWPS, where I think is where the biggest complaints come from: it doesn't take many risks. Smile was almost two albums. You had the ornately arranged open-minded structures of the songs juxtaposed with a bunch of psychedelic tomfoolery (let us not forget the vegetable arguments, the dirty jokes, "George Fell Into...", or how Brian wanted to record a bar fight for "H & V") and jamming. Somehow, Brian made it all seem natural at the time. However, the people who recorded BWPS were not hippies or free spirits or whatever and could never recreate the drug-inspired spontaneity that led to things like the whistles on the "Fire (intro)" or "Swedish Frog". At best, they could copy note for note what was done before, or deciding that some of it was distasteful or goofy or not melodic enough and not even doing it all. But that wasn't the point of Smile. They just didn't get that part, really. Or maybe they were too scared to do it because of the immense legend built up around Smile. Brian probably just didn't care all that much about that by '04, he just wanted to make (probably, I'm conjecturing here) a "good enough" Smile that would finally make people stop bugging him. Like the bass on "Child is Father..." that some people have already brought up. On Smile, that bass wants to boom and send its echoes across the universe. On BWPS, it is content to just play along with the chords.

Look at the pictures taken for Smile, or the cover art. Someone at the time said that Brian wanted them to look silly or amateurish. It was the point. Smile was going to have warts. It was going to have odd transitions, random jokes, off the wall sound effects, and whatever have you. It wasn't going to try to flow perfectly like BWPS was. Brian wanted you to go "WTF?!?!" at moments. That's what Smile was about. The innocence of laughter. Brian used to like make Van sing backing vocals when he played Smile songs on piano for people. Van was self-conscious about his voice at the time, or at least self-conscious around a great singer like Brian, and wouldn't want to do it. But Brian would bug him in front of everybody until he'd do it, and then Van would sing, but so low you could barely hear him, his face turning red. Everybody thought it was funny, with all that pot smoke wafting in the air. Those were the exact kind of moments Brian wanted on Smile.

[sofonanm]

Take the rest of the tracks and give them a little touch of the BW magic.  Maybe a feed back echo leading part 1 of Wind Chimes into part 2.  Maybe add a wind storm sound effect underneath Wind Chimes part 2.  Maybe the song stops dead in its tracks before the big multi-piano fade and you drop in the load noise from Smiley Smile Wind Chimes.  Most, if not all of the seems of these modular sections would have had something special happening.

Yeah, I've tried doing stuff like that, although I lost my mixes (I think, anyway). For example, I slowed down the "bop bop bop bop, doo-doo-doot doo-doo-doot" part of "Vegetables" so that the voices sound like weird trumpets. I also cut "Vegetables" down to a little over 2 minutes and started it with the laughing verse (it's on one of the bootlegs, it just has the group laughing with no lyrics, followed by someone shouting "oh no!" at the end), and I also put a little bit of the famous vegetable argument before it. I put some edited bits of "George Fell Into His French Horn" before "Surf's Up". I use the version of "Wind Chimes" with the weird count in before the horns part in the middle.  One time I tried adding the sound of waves to the background of the "Water Chant". There were some dirty jokes Brian did that I put in front of "Roll Plymouth Rock".

It sounded like at the time the big idea was to add lots of sound effects to the songs. Someone from Brian's circle at the time said that Brian and Van had decided that at some point. There are takes of "Do A Lot" with the sounds of running sinks and brushing teeth, talk of the "Wind Chimes" outro with Brian's idea of the sound of wind chimes overdubbed, and other stuff like that. We know about the animal sounds on "Barnyard". An article from '66 or '67 talks about Brian putting the "Swedish Frog" together with some kind of musical backing, praising the results ("How does he do it?", I think it somebody was quoted in the article as asking). The beginning of "Vegetables" and "Fire (intro)" have some very hippie instrumental jams played over the top. There was going to be yodeling on "Wonderful", and there's that weird "doing, doing, DO-ING!" vocal on "Cabinessence". Plus, the Native American vocal imitations on the "Bicycle Rider" chorus, and that wonderful slide guitar overdub on "Roll Plymouth Rock". And we have the cantina take of "H &V".

Which all brings to mind one of the biggest problem of BWPS, where I think is where the biggest complaints come from: it doesn't take many risks. Smile was almost two albums. You had the ornately arranged open-minded structures of the songs juxtaposed with a bunch of psychedelic tomfoolery (let us not forget the vegetable arguments, the dirty jokes, "George Fell Into...", or how Brian wanted to record a bar fight for "H & V") and jamming. Somehow, Brian made it all seem natural at the time. However, the people who recorded BWPS were not hippies or free spirits or whatever and could never recreate the drug-inspired spontaneity that led to things like the whistles on the "Fire (intro)" or "Swedish Frog". At best, they could copy note for note what was done before, or deciding that some of it was distasteful or goofy or not melodic enough and not even doing it all. But that wasn't the point of Smile. They just didn't get that part, really. Brian probably just didn't care all that much about that by '04, he just wanted to make (probably, I'm conjecturing here) a "good enough" Smile that would finally make people stop bugging him. Like the bass on "Child is Father..." that some people have already brought up. On Smile, that bass wants to boom and send its echoes across the universe. On BWPS, it is content to just play along with the chords.

Look at the pictures taken for Smile, or the cover art. Someone at the time said that Brian wanted them to look silly or amateurish. It was the point. Smile was going to have warts. It was going to have odd transitions, random jokes, off the wall sound effects, and whatever have you. It wasn't going to try to flow perfectly like BWPS was. Brian wanted you to go "WTF?!?!" at moments. That's what Smile was about. The innocence of laughter. Brian used to like make Van sing backing vocals when he played Smile songs on piano for people. Van was self-conscious about his voice at the time, or at least self-conscious around a great singer like Brian, and wouldn't want to do it. But Brian would bug him in front of everybody until he'd do it, and then Van would sing, but so low you could barely hear him, his face turning red. Everybody thought it was funny, with all that pot smoke wafting in the air. Those were the exact kind of moments Brian wanted on Smile.

Great points!!

[Sheriff John Stone]

Which all brings to mind one of the biggest problem of BWPS, where I think is where the biggest complaints come from: it doesn't take many risks. Smile was almost two albums. You had the ornately arranged open-minded structures of the songs juxtaposed with a bunch of psychedelic tomfoolery (let us not forget the vegetable arguments, the dirty jokes, "George Fell Into...", or how Brian wanted to record a bar fight for "H & V") and jamming. Somehow, Brian made it all seem natural at the time. However, the people who recorded BWPS were not hippies or free spirits or whatever and could never recreate the drug-inspired spontaneity that led to things like the whistles on the "Fire (intro)" or "Swedish Frog". At best, they could copy note for note what was done before, or deciding that some of it was distasteful or goofy or not melodic enough and not even doing it all. But that wasn't the point of Smile. They just didn't get that part, really. Or maybe they were too scared to do it because of the immense legend built up around Smile. Brian probably just didn't care all that much about that by '04, he just wanted to make (probably, I'm conjecturing here) a "good enough" Smile that would finally make people stop bugging him. Like the bass on "Child is Father..." that some people have already brought up. On Smile, that bass wants to boom and send its echoes across the universe. On BWPS, it is content to just play along with the chords.

Yep. You nailed it.

[The Song Of The Grange]

Dada, as always, wonderfully put.  I have been working on a mix lately that is heavily informed by Zappa's We're Only In It For The Money.  Someone on this board made the suggesting that this Zappa record (and Lumpy Gravy) are good hints as to what Smile would have really sounded like.  The suggestion was a great one, and it has really changed how I see the Smile project.  Granted, Brian wouldn't have been quite so wild, zanny, anti-hippie (or what have you) as Zappa was, but the tape editing and free-for-all feel make sense in a Smile context.  Plus, a lot of We're Only In It For The Money kind of has a (very stoned) version of the Beach Boys Party! in studio party vibe.  And hearing a lot of the extra stuff from the Pet Sounds sessions makes me think that Brian was heading towards what would be Smile as far back as late 65' and early 66'.  As Dada mentioned, there is the recordings of the Honeys telling dirty jokes.  There is the radio-show like feel of the radio promo spots for Caroline No.  And of course there is the large amount of field recordings, skits, chants, and party sounds recorded during the Smile sessions.  Couple this with Brian's official releases during the era and you start getting into that Zappa territory.  What I find fun and challenging is making the translation between the Zappa guide model and what Brian would have done.  His wild collage trip would have been more innocent, happy, spiritual, and goofy.  But I must say, since I put together my Zappa guided Smile mix, there is no turning back.  It just feels right.  It is as close as we can get to transporting back in time like the dude in the novel Glimpses did.

(by the way, I have heard a fan mix floating around out there of H&V that seems to be edited to sound like the H&V envisioned in the book Glimpses.  Someone must have put it together.) 

[The Song Of The Grange]

oh, and the other big question I have yet to grapple with is whether to put my whole Smile mix into mono.  Haven't done it yet because the stereo sounds good.  My gut feeling is that Smile would have been mono, which feels weird to me because the music is so expansive, but there is good evidence it might have been.  Was Smiley Smile originally mixed in mono?  I guess this would be a great topic for a new post.

[Ebb and Flow]

Smile definitely would've been released in mono.  Smiley Smile and Wild Honey were both released that way.

[runnersdialzero]

Jesus Christ.

[sockittome]

I think I read this very same debate almost five years ago.  Way to move on with your lives!

[Wilsonista]

I think I read this very same debate almost five years ago.  Way to move on with your lives!

 

[the captain]

There have only been about 25-30 posts in the history of the internet (and 22 of them were porn). It's all just recycling.

[lance]

And over half of them concerned, SMiLE.


BWPS finished product, far's I'm concerned.

[sofonanm]

I think I read this very same debate almost five years ago.  Way to move on with your lives!

And every single day the sun rises and sets.

You're living the big womb of repeating actions and repeating thoughts. Get used to it and join the insanity.

[Dancing Bear]

Way to move on with your lives!

We all did, really. That's why all our precious copies of BWPS are covered with dust. 

[the captain]

Way to move on with your lives!

We all did, really. That's why all our precious copies of BWPS are covered with dust. 

f*** that. I play mine on occasion. It's good. Ditto for the Beach Boys Smile session material. Moving on would be admitting that the world didn't stop with the bands of the 60s and 70s, and that most of us would do well to talk less about those and find new ones.

[sockittome]

Way to move on with your lives!

We all did, really. That's why all our precious copies of BWPS are covered with dust. 

Well, at least they got your money! 

Seriously, there's a lot of good stuff on there, even if it doesn't have that same ambiance as the '66/'67 tapes, or the same running order that might have been, or even the same musicians and vocalists.  It was nearly 40 years later folks, things were bound to sound different.  And they didn't take a year to lay it down.  The whole process was different.  Just accept it for what it is.

This is almost as annoying as those "Pet Sounds was never meant to be in stereo" arguments!

[sofonanm]

This is almost as annoying as those "Pet Sounds was never meant to be in stereo" arguments!

Got any links to threads with that discussion going on? I'd love to read them. 

I love those kind of arguments.