Brian's production tricks: things over looked in BWPS and many Smile playlists

[Dancing Bear]

Oh great. Please, anyone show me where, in this thread, those who dig BWPS are accused of doing so for non-musical reasons. Seriously. What a shame.

[sofonanm]

Judging by the discussions on this board, FR0WN would be a more appropriate title for the album.

 

This is a good discussion, sofonanm. It's a good exchange of ideas. Jonathan is making some of the best "pro BWPS" points that I've ever read. As somebody posted a few pages back, how many places in the world can you go to read about and discuss the subject of SMiLE. And, as somebody else wrote, if you don't like/agree with some of the posts or posters, nobody's forcing you to read them.

Oh, I like it, I just find it funny that there's probably been more ruffled eyebrows and tensed foreheads at work over an album called Smile than any other.

[Wilsonista]

To the Bear,

I always felt from reading comments from yourself,  the Sheriff and others that I am Officially Not Supposed to Like Brian Wilson Presents SMiLE for a variety of reasons that have beaten into thee ground.  Perhaps other fans of the album feel the same way. For some people on this board BWPS was their introduction to the Beach Boys.

[Sheriff John Stone]

Judging by the discussions on this board, FR0WN would be a more appropriate title for the album.

 

This is a good discussion, sofonanm. It's a good exchange of ideas. Jonathan is making some of the best "pro BWPS" points that I've ever read. As somebody posted a few pages back, how many places in the world can you go to read about and discuss the subject of SMiLE. And, as somebody else wrote, if you don't like/agree with some of the posts or posters, nobody's forcing you to read them.

Oh, I like it, I just find it funny that there's probably been more ruffled eyebrows and tensed foreheads at work over an album called Smile than any other.

I can't speak for others, but, for me, it's passion. I'm passionate about the 1966-67 SMiLE music. Yeah, sometimes I feel a little sheepish that I spend/waste(?) so much time writing about it. But, it's harmless fun. I'm not hurting anyone. I try to respect all opinions (some I can't because they're personal), and learn something. Sorry to repeat myself, but there are so few of us "nuts" around, in one place - here, who can intelligently discuss this stuff. I mean, how many people do you know who you can discuss flip-flopping the second and third movements of BWPS with? That kind of fascinates me.

[TdHabib]

You know, I obviously do prefer the original SMiLE tapes, but I love BWPS. The argument is that Brian's voice isn't as good as 1966, and it isn't; but these are Brian's best vocals for a long, long time, at least 20 years. They've since been eclisped by TLOS, but they're very good for what they are. I agree with some people's guesswork that Darian enthused Brian/challenged him in the studio into getting good vocals and that it probably wasn't easy. The recording suffers from a lack of bass, but I honestly didn't noitce until about 10 listens in. The backing vocals are truly superb.

As for the lyrics being added, I can see why people get upset about that but I like to think that some of that was Brian's decision. In Beautiful Dreamer, you distinctly hear Brian say to Van Dyke "So can you add lyrics to that?" in a very innocent way.  I like to think that's at least partly Brian's decision. Pet Sounds had two instrumentals, SMiLE might've had "Holidays," "I Love to Say Dada" and "Fire," however we don't know what could've been there. At least "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow" is bereft of lyrics, and it might be the most spinetingling part of the album, truly brilliant.

And finally, the fade argument, one which slightly hampers my view of the album. I MISS the fade to "Cabinessence," but I can see why they did it: they were doing a very faithful replication of the LIVE version and as far as I know only "Busy Doin' Nothing" has ever been performed with a live fade. They aren't easy with such a large ensemble. Same thing with "Surf's Up," perhaps they were just speeding up the recording process to make sure that Brian maintained enthusiasm. Sounds like a theory to me.

Finally, I'd just like to close with one point that surprised me. In a very recent interview with Mark Linnett went out of his way to say that Brian extensively discussed the sound field he wanted for the recording. This, to me anyway, shows that Brian's participation is far more than what some of the skeptics say it is. I don't think that all of the people involved with BWPS would've put up with the large scam some are suggesting. Was there some funny business? Probably. But there probably has been in every BB related album since 1976 or even before.

So BWPS is not perfect, but to me it's the closest thing we have to a great BB related album (along with TLOS, in my opinion) since Love You.

[Dancing Bear]

To the Bear,

I always felt from reading comments from yourself,  the Sheriff and others that I am Officially Not Supposed to Like Brian Wilson Presents SMiLE for a variety of reasons that have beaten into thee ground.  Perhaps other fans of the album feel the same way. For some people on this board BWPS was their introduction to the Beach Boys.

Feeling is different than reading. I don't mind reading arguments about why I should or could love BWPS.

I won't, anyway. Just because it has no Mike Love in it. 

[Wilsonista]

That's precisely why I love it.


Not really, but it needed to be said.

[Wirestone]

For Christ's sake.

Sam_BFC and noname --

No one on this board knows anything. Well, I'll except AGD from that, and the usual suspects who have their own threads.

But the people who clutter up threads like this -- they don't know or have any better idea about what makes this music good or bad that anyone. To let SJS or whomever ruin your enjoyment of Smile or Brian's solo work -- just don't let it happen.

They have no special insight, other than the time to write post after post berating Brian, praising Mike, and looking for phantoms to shake sticks at.

[Jason]

For Christ's sake.

Sam_BFC and noname --

No one on this board knows anything. Well, I'll except AGD from that, and the usual suspects who have their own threads.

But the people who clutter up threads like this -- they don't know or have any better idea about what makes this music good or bad that anyone. To let SJS or whomever ruin your enjoyment of Smile or Brian's solo work -- just don't let it happen.

They have no special insight, other than the time to write post after post berating Brian, praising Mike, and looking for phantoms to shake sticks at.

Someone's butthurt. Truth does that to you.

Whew, it's time for me to meditate.

[sockittome]

Sorry for the bad vibes sockittome.  Please accept my apology.  Apparently I am a bit touchy on the subject!

Song of the Grange, I apologize if I came off like I was calling you out for starting this thread.  We're all pretty passionate about this subject...and, well we should be.  The music we are discussing is such a part of our lives; it's a part of us.  

To make it up to you I'm going to put aside this whole BWPS is/is not SMiLE debate and address your OP directly:

I agree about the ambiance of the sessions that is missing from BWPS.  There's a certain warmth on those '66/'67 tapes that gets into your head and under your skin.  In some ways it defies description.  Like that aforementioned bass on CIFOTM.  I noticed it years ago, and even today it blows me away!  How did they do that?  Sadly, that did not translate to the BWPS version.  I don't know if they could have replicated that sound in today's studio atmosphere.  But I can deal with it.  

As we all know there are a few pieces of the CIFOTM sessions that aren't in the BWPS version.  One that comes to mind is the almost occapela chant with just the piano and that almost painfully high Brian falsetto that's followed by the percussion and bass figure that goes into the main part of the song.  Where did that go?

Oh well.  Bottom line is, I love having a finished version on BWPS with vocals and all.  It's my favorite part.  If I want to experience those details in the sessions I mentioned above, I can always go back to those boots and listen to it in sections.  Everybody wins!!!!!

[sofonanm]

As we all know there are a few pieces of the CIFOTM sessions that aren't in the BWPS version.  One that comes to mind is the almost occapela chant with just the piano and that almost painfully high Brian falsetto that's followed by the percussion and bass figure that goes into the main part of the song.  Where did that go?

IMO (I feel like I have to begin my posts with that to prevent death & destruction) those little pieces should've been worked into the SMiLE live show and the album. The band could've jammed on bits like that and had so much fun! Y'know how Brian sometimes plays the piano part near the end of "Wind Chimes"? Imagine if for that bit of CIFOTM he played the piano and sung while all other instrumentation dropped out and just the singers sung for a little bit and then... full band comes in to play that feel.

[sockittome]

Interesting thing about that section I mentioned.  Sounds like that is one of the better preserved pieces.  It sounds really full and clear.  Unlike some of the other pieces that sound like a copy of a copy of a copy of a not so well recorded source!

[MBE]

First off where does anyone get off insulting anyone else's knowledge or opinion. We are all here to learn and exchange ideas. Anyone not willing to do that ruins it for everyone else. If someone likes the damn record great if not great who the foda cares. Everyone should think for themselves on the music, but the facts are that Brian's involvement was not and could not be what it was in 1966. That doesn't mean he didn't care or didn't do good work, but there was some hype. None of which matters if you like it or if you don't you don't. Brian is never going to be who he was in 1964 that's fine, and I guess the only thing I don't like is that people try to make it like he is. The Beach Boys management did that. so did his doctor, so did his current management. All grossly underestimate our intelligence and by all means Darian should have got his name in as big of letters as Brian's on the last three albums and on LOS Scott should of as well.  

Beyond all the crap is the music and I think Brian's done work live and in the studio over the last ten years that defies all expectations, and some which stinks. Frankly I can say and will say the exact same thing about Mike. I don't rank them completely equally but both have impressed me by trying consistently harder then they did through the eighties and nineties- 1993 box set tour and both the 87-88 and 1994-5 Paley sessions excepted.

[Jason]

First off where does anyone get off insulting anyone else's knowledge or opinion. We are all here to learn and exchange ideas. Anyone not willing to do that ruins it for everyone else. If someone likes the damn record great if not great who the foda cares. Everyone should think for themselves on the music, but the facts are that Brian's involvement was not and could not be what it was in 1966. That doesn't mean he didn't care or didn't do good work, but there was some hype. None of which matters if you like it or if you don't you don't. Brian is never going to be who he was in 1964 that's fine, and I guess the only thing I don't like is that people try to make it like he is. The Beach Boys management did that. so did his doctor, so did his current management. All grossly underestimate our intelligence and by all means Darian should have got his name in as big of letters as Brian's on the last three albums and on LOS Scott should of as well. 

Beyond all the crap is the music and I think Brian's done work live and in the studio over the last ten years that defies all expectations, and some which stinks. Frankly I can say and will say the exact same thing about Mike. I don't rank them completely equally but both have impressed me by trying consistently harder then they did through the eighties and nineties- 1993 box set tour and both the 87-88 and 1994-5 Paley sessions excepted.

The blueboard would benefit from this post, mang. Where Brian-centric opinions are facts and Mike-centric opinions are bannable offenses.

[Jonathan Blum]

Yes, his wife had to suggest and nudge him into it.  That's normal for someone with depression and various forms of mental illness -- you don't want to do even the stuff you want to do, let alone stuff that'll be good for you.

Yes, but it's NOT normal for someone with depression and various forms of mental illness to be able to FINISH a project, of arguably his greatest work, of arguably anybody's greatest work - 37 years after the fact. Not only is it not normal, it's unbelievable, to me anyway. Oh, I suppose someone could attempt it, and call it "finished". I mean, they can sit in front of a camera and say anything they want, or are told to say. But, that doesn't make it finished. Then we start to get into that area of the "f" word, and I don't mean finished.

No, it's not normal for a person to climb a mental mountain like that -- it's a hell of an achievement.  But the normal bit is for a depressed person to need a lot of help in taking on a big task.  Which still doesn't mean they didn't climb the mountain in the end.

Besides, if I believed something like that was impossible, I'd just give up hope.  Cause my wife's got depression -- after a decade in which she wrote or co-wrote thirteen books, in the past six years she hasn't finished anything longer than a novella.  But after changes to her medication, and treating her sleep apnea, and a whole bunch of other little changes, she's doing better than she has in years... and I really believe this book she's been working on on-and-off since about 2001 will come out sooner or later.

Will she ever be the same relentless fireball she was back then, when I first fell in love with her?  Of course not, she's over 40 now and generally knackered.  Life happens.  But it's still one hell of an accomplishment to gain back so much lost ground.  Just like the way this doesn't need to be a "Brian's Back" he's-completely-fixed-now moment to be fundamentally a triumph.  24-year-old Brian will never be back, he flamed out decades ago, but over-65 Brian is way happier and more productive than he has been in decades.

A number of people here are so determined not to be "taken in" that they're downplaying and disparaging the very real recovery we've seen over the years.  The guy who I've seen six times in concert over the years, and each time he looks more relaxed and confident; the guy who was caught on videotape unawares while talking to Van Dyke Parks about how he hopes people will "get the f*** off" on the new lyrics for a project he spent decades refusing to face.  (No one's claiming that was staged.)  They're determined to believe that Brian is just a giant glovepuppet with Melinda's hand up his back, or that every time he refers to Smile having been finished he's just lipsyncing while Jeff Foskett speaks his words.  I think that's at least as much of an overblown self-serving myth, with people telling themselves what they want to hear, as the original "Brian's Back" was.  And it kind of reminds me of the dwarves from CS Lewis' last Narnia book, who are so hellbent on their worldview that even when they're transported to paradise they still see themselves as being in the dingy stables they were taken from.

At the end of the day, Brian went from not even wanting to talk about Smile to singing it.  That's the story.  You really can't erase that.

Cheers,
Jon Blum

[Mahalo]

Mike Love's mind- gangsters are out to discredit and destroy.... 

[Jonathan Blum]

Someone's butthurt. Truth does that to you.

So does a load of bull.  :-)

(...and now that I've got a mental image of a giant bull butthurting innocent Beach Boys fans, I think it's time for me to put the internet down and take two steps back...)

Cheers,
Jon Blum

[Jason]

Mike Love's Mind - a Tribute To Mike Love by Mike Love

Well hey there y'all
My name is Mike
I sing for y'all
And I do what I like

I been a Beach Boy
For as long as I know
Singin' Fun Fun Fun
And Kokomo

I don't know too much
But I know this much
TM is the way
15 minutes every day

Gangstas are out
To discredit and destroy
My relationship with Brian
And the other Beach Boys

I'm not hatin' on my cuz
And that I think you should know
'Cos when gangstas speak out
I just can't go with the flow

Brian is my friend
And I'm his biggest fan
But he took too many drugs
And he left Smile in the can

Now we have BWPS
And that's ok with me
But when you discredit my role
Well son that ain't cool with me

So when you hatin' on da Lovesta
This I think you should know
Sun and sand and girls and vibes're
How I go with the flow

I'm gettin' up in years
And that's just how it goes
But when fans say I'm a jerk
Man that just ain't my show

So when you see the Beach Boys
You might pay twenty or go for free
Just remember unlike Brian
We play the songs in the right keys

No dope
No booze
No bull
That's coo

Because I'm Mike Love
And that's just how it goes.

[MBE]

First off where does anyone get off insulting anyone else's knowledge or opinion. We are all here to learn and exchange ideas. Anyone not willing to do that ruins it for everyone else. If someone likes the damn record great if not great who the foda cares. Everyone should think for themselves on the music, but the facts are that Brian's involvement was not and could not be what it was in 1966. That doesn't mean he didn't care or didn't do good work, but there was some hype. None of which matters if you like it or if you don't you don't. Brian is never going to be who he was in 1964 that's fine, and I guess the only thing I don't like is that people try to make it like he is. The Beach Boys management did that. so did his doctor, so did his current management. All grossly underestimate our intelligence and by all means Darian should have got his name in as big of letters as Brian's on the last three albums and on LOS Scott should of as well. 

Beyond all the crap is the music and I think Brian's done work live and in the studio over the last ten years that defies all expectations, and some which stinks. Frankly I can say and will say the exact same thing about Mike. I don't rank them completely equally but both have impressed me by trying consistently harder then they did through the eighties and nineties- 1993 box set tour and both the 87-88 and 1994-5 Paley sessions excepted.

The blueboard would benefit from this post, mang. Where Brian-centric opinions are facts and Mike-centric opinions are bannable offenses.

Oh I would be shot . It's that mindset I am aiming at though.

[Jason]

Oh I would be shot . It's that mindset I am aiming at though.

It would end up on YouTube too!

[Mr. Cohen]

They have no special insight, other than the time to write post after post berating Brian, praising Mike, and looking for phantoms to shake sticks at.

That's what I'm about. I hope I ruined the Beach Boy's music for you. Sincerely.

But seriously, I just have one last thing to say. I think some of us are bitter because BWPS was, sort of, the end of the Smile dream. And let's face it, it wasn't a pop music revolution. It didn't change the face of music.  And that's what some of us liked, the idea that Smile was so amazing that it could have done those things. Maybe it could've had it been released in '67, but who knows? Maybe it would have always fell short of those lofty expectations. What music wouldn't?  But... but, We could always hold up a vain hope before, that Brian's magic touch would've brought those expectations to reality.

It's just really disappointing to some of us that music as brilliant as Smile, as presented on BWPS, had a relatively small impact on the world. So yeah, I wish the performances were better. Not because I hate BWPS (I like it, actually), but because I wanted it to be a revelation. And, at least, by blaming the performances on BWPS, I can still cling to those dreams. Even though deep down inside I know Smile always would've been a let down. That is, it would have to be let down in the wake of the ridiculous expectations we had for it.

OK, actually, Smile wasn't THAT important to my life. I like to dramatize. But you get the point,

[Jason]

Someone's butthurt. Truth does that to you.

So does a load of bull.  :-)

(...and now that I've got a mental image of a giant bull butthurting innocent Beach Boys fans, I think it's time for me to put the internet down and take two steps back...)

Cheers,
Jon Blum

I can't even reply to this seriously because the comment enclosed in parentheses is probably the FUNNIEST thing I've ever seen posted on this board.

[lance]

Original Smile...hours and hours of brilliant sessions. Unfinished.

BWPS=one of the best albums I've ever heard.

[Mahalo]

That's what I'm about. I hope I ruined the Beach Boy's music for you. Sincerely.

It's impossible to ruin their music for me. I wouldn't keep coming back here if it did. IF anyone comes close, it would have to be the weaker efforts by the Boyz themselves. Besides, it is telling how BWPS is so threatening to people, especially the educated fans. To downplay BWPS' impact on the world is dangerous. Pet Sounds wasn't exactly hailed as art when it first came out. There seems to be loads of fans of BWPS who will never ever be a fraction of intigued in the Boyz' music as we are.

When Brian dies and there are mad news reports about him, I'm sure BWPS will be rightly acknowledged as one of his greatest achievements. It is not the SMiLE, but it still rocks.

Regardless, Brian Wilson is largely an underground phenomena in the world of pop/rock. How big of an impact could anyone expect?

[sofonanm]

When Brian dies and there are mad news reports about him, I'm sure BWPS will be rightly acknowledged as one of his greatest achievements.

well they're hardly going to say, "Brian Wilson, known for his work in the Beach Boys and his most accomplished solo album, Gettin' In Over My Head, died today..." now are they?