Brian's production tricks: things over looked in BWPS and many Smile playlists

[buddhahat]

As I said in my earlier (and first post) there is lot's of talk about SMiLE 2004 in my generation (born in the 80's).
You can pick up a copy of SMiLE 2004 for like 8 dollars and bring it as a present to a diner party. You can't come with some dvd filled with 60 versions of all the H&V-elements, that just a bad gift for the uninitiated. That is just what SMiLE 2004 is: a real record, that can bring the joy of SMiLE to the noobs, the people that normally won't download/buy a bootleg.

I think this is a really good point. By virtue of being the easiest way to hear the key Smile tunes in one place, BWPS is going to be most noobs in-road to Smile now, which personally I think is great.

Thinking along these lines, I think what we'll see more of is as new bands fall in love with the Smile music (which will arguably happening for many years to come) and choose to cover the Smile material, it'll be the BWPS sequence that they use as a template - it'll just be the most logical thing to do rather than cover a Mark Linnet sequence of Vegetables or whatever, and so gradually, inevitably, far from erasing the significance of BW and VDPs 04 work on Smile, time will legitimise it. The fact that BW and VDP said they finished Smile in 04 is all that matters from a historical perspective. It now exists as a complete composition and there's no escaping that. BWPS made Smile more cover-able

[Mahalo]

They changed the song titles, the endings (eliminating the great fades), added new lyrics (to the instrumentals),

Personally I LOVE the new lyrics, and I wouldn't be surprised if some of them are more vintage than we currently know. I wonder if there would've been more than one instrumental, (MOC). One thing that irks me a bit is that Oom- pa-pa part that opens the third movement. It seems weird.

added a female voice, and added new art work (because they were too cheap to pay for the old stuff?).

A) I dig Taylor's voice on this record...that is BWPS' least of issues...IMO

B) Maybe they didn't use the original cover art because they know it truly isn't SMiLE 67. They did use much of the original art in the DVD, and creatively too. The illustrations inside BWPS are great.

[Sheriff John Stone]

When you say overwhelming majority of the work, I presume you mean assembling. The songs were written by a 1966/67 Brian and Van Dyke except for any added lyrics or linking music. Personally I LOVE the new lyrics, although I wouldn't be surprised if some of them are more vintage than we currently know. One thing that irks me a bit is that Oom- pa-pa part that opens the third movement. It seems weird.

added a female voice, and added new art work (because they were too cheap to pay for the old stuff?).

A) I dig Taylor's voice on this record...that is BWPS' least of issues...IMO

B) Maybe they didn't use the original cover art because they know it truly isn't SMiLE 67. They did use much of the original art in the DVD, and creatively too. The illustrations inside BWPS are great.

Yes, I meant (Darian's) assembling, but also his sequencing, producing, playing, and singing - a lot of work, dontcha think?

I dig Taylor's voice, too, on some songs....I only listed her vocals on BWPS to add to the LIST of NEW bits/things that popped up on BWPS.

I vaguely recall a thread (maybe on this message board) where the original artist for SMiLE in 1966-67 (whose name escapes me), said that "they" (himself and Brian's team) couldn't come to an agreement or a financial settlement for the original artwork. If I'm wrong, somebody correct me...

[buddhahat]

When you say overwhelming majority of the work, I presume you mean assembling. The songs were written by a 1966/67 Brian and Van Dyke except for any added lyrics or linking music. Personally I LOVE the new lyrics, although I wouldn't be surprised if some of them are more vintage than we currently know. One thing that irks me a bit is that Oom- pa-pa part that opens the third movement. It seems weird.

added a female voice, and added new art work (because they were too cheap to pay for the old stuff?).

A) I dig Taylor's voice on this record...that is BWPS' least of issues...IMO

B) Maybe they didn't use the original cover art because they know it truly isn't SMiLE 67. They did use much of the original art in the DVD, and creatively too. The illustrations inside BWPS are great.

Yes, I meant (Darian's) assembling, but also his sequencing, producing, playing, and singing - a lot of work, dontcha think?

I dig Taylor's voice, too, on some songs....I only listed her vocals on BWPS to add to the LIST of NEW bits/things that popped up on BWPS.

I vaguely recall a thread (maybe on this message board) where the original artist for SMiLE in 1966-67 (whose name escapes me), said that "they" (himself and Brian's team) couldn't come to an agreement or a financial settlement for the original artwork. If I'm wrong, somebody correct me...

No I think this right. Frank Holmes is the artist and I remember reading that they couldn't agree on the fee or something along those lines. Such a shame as that artwork would have been beautiful on BWPS, and I think subliminally would have convinced a few more doubters that BWPS is Smile!

[Mahalo]

Yes, I meant (Darian's) assembling, but also his sequencing, producing, playing, and singing - a lot of work, dontcha think?

Yer right...I caught onto that after I re-read yer original post. I tried to edit the post before anyone could quote that part!

[Sam_BFC]

Just to add I am another born on the 80s and I discovered BWPS in the blissful ignorance of the original sessions, and that album is the reason I am here today.  I have also turned some friends onto the album that are really into but - as others have mentioned - are not so interested in the original sessions.  I do love the vintage sessions however.

The comments on this board have obviously offered a different viewpoint to what I was originally exposed to in the press and Beautiful Dreamer, and I gotta say you have to an extent shattered my views on BWPS lol but I feel some here are overly cynical though do have a point.

Regardless of this the music on BWPS is still fantastic music in my opinion...it changed my life and thank goodness I discovered it before you lot were here to put doubt in my mind about its credibility   There are even (few) aspects of BWPS that I prefer to the original sessions, although they are mesmerising.

Cheers

[Mahalo]

Just to add I am another born on the 80s and I discovered BWPS in the blissful ignorance of the original sessions, and that album is the reason I am here today.  I have also turned some friends onto the album that are really into but - as others have mentioned - are not so interested in the original sessions.  I do love the vintage sessions however.

The comments on this board have obviously offered a different viewpoint to what I was originally exposed to in the press and Beautiful Dreamer, and I gotta say you have to an extent shattered my views on BWPS lol but I feel some here are overly cynical though do have a point.

Regardless of this the music on BWPS is still fantastic music in my opinion...it changed my life and thank goodness I discovered it before you lot were here to put doubt in my mind about its credibility   There are even (few) aspects of BWPS that I prefer to the original sessions, although they are mesmerising.

Cheers

That's funny...that happens all the time to me on this board. Especially Brian's solo stuff.

[SG7]

They couldn't use the original artwork because there were issues with trying to get the older artwork and so they had to make something new. It was in the end about money.

Edit: and I just realized someone else posted this also haha.

[Dancing Bear]

I think it would have convinced a few more doubters that BWPS is Smile!

Hey, if the music didn't do the job... 

[SG7]

I think it would have convinced a few more doubters that BWPS is Smile!

Hey, if the music didn't do the job... 

Even if it was perfect, there is always someone out there who doesn't think so.

[Jonathan Blum]

Look, Smile is and always be a lost and unfinished Beach Boys album that should have been released in 1967 but got shelved, after which Brian Wilson, their leader, started his downward spiral. Period. That's rocklore.

Nope.  That's your preferred narrative.  There's another one out there now which is at least as valid:  the genius who started his great work, lost his grip, and after many years and with a fair bit of help from his friends managed to face it again and finish it.  That's your biopic, right there.

Next time they make a movie about Brian Wilson, you see if it doesn't have that ending...

Cheers,
Jon BLum

[sofonanm]

Look, Smile is and always be a lost and unfinished Beach Boys album that should have been released in 1967 but got shelved, after which Brian Wilson, their leader, started his downward spiral. Period. That's rocklore.

Nope.  That's your preferred narrative.  There's another one out there now which is at least as valid:  the genius who started his great work, lost his grip, and after many years and with a fair bit of help from his friends managed to face it again and finish it.  That's your biopic, right there.

Next time they make a movie about Brian Wilson, you see if it doesn't have that ending...

Cheers,
Jon BLum

Because films are known to be without historical error or revisionism... 

The guy who plays Darian is gonna have a lot of parts to memorize... 

[Sheriff John Stone]

Look, Smile is and always be a lost and unfinished Beach Boys album that should have been released in 1967 but got shelved, after which Brian Wilson, their leader, started his downward spiral. Period. That's rocklore.

Nope.  That's your preferred narrative.  There's another one out there now which is at least as valid:  the genius who started his great work, lost his grip, and after many years and with a fair bit of help from his friends managed to face it again and finish it.  That's your biopic, right there.

Nope. That's YOUR preferred narrative.

Jonathan, re-read Dancing Bear's opinion again, then re-read yours. In his heart, which one do think Brian believes?

[sofonanm]

I have a bit of a side question that ties into the debate that's going on at the moment:

In one of the documentaries, I can't remember which at the moment, there's a clip of Darian at his laptop playing stuff to Brian and that sort of thing. If you've seen it you'll know what I'm talking about. I've read that that was put on for the camera - which is not hard to deduce because Brian slips up and says something about Child segueing into Surf's Up.

Here's my gripe with that: why is it necessary to fake that scene?

They could've just interviewed Brian or Darian or both of them together or someone who was around and asked how the creative process went down. It could've been explained as, "I (Darian) collected all the bits of Smile from the original sessions and played them to Brian, who told me what to axe and what to leave, then we went about sequencing it and at each stage I'd play it back to Brian to show how it would go, and he'd make changes..." and so on. That they had to fake a scene and give no other disclaimer that it wasn't actual footage of what it was purporting to be seems... strange.

What's the deal with that whole thing?

[Jonathan Blum]

Yes, I meant (Darian's) assembling, but also his sequencing, producing, playing, and singing - a lot of work, dontcha think?

Gosh, it's almost like the new album was done by a band.

Some people seem to forget that the album scheduled for '67 was not titled "Brian Wilson Presents Smile" -- it was a Beach Boys album.  Having other people in the band make contributions is hardly a betrayal of the concept.  And if the other participants' contributions this time were more significant than bitching about the lyrics?  It's all the better for it -- they made beautiful music out of it.  I think crediting the album to the Brian Wilson Band would have been quite appropriate -- but so is describing Brian as "presenting" the finished work, rather than it just being "Brian Wilson - Smile".  He's not claiming he did all the new stuff himself, even though he did take part in it and make significant contributions to the reconstruction (e.g, the vocals for "Fire").

Oh, and as for the idea that Brian wasn't involved?  I've seen Brian being blatantly uninvolved, sitting at the side of the stage behind a piano with a cigarette dangling out of his mouth.  I've also seen Brian Wilson onstage at the Sydney Opera House, singing "Surf's Up" for the umpty-dozenth time on the tour and positively beaming.  That's involved.

Yes, his wife had to suggest and nudge him into it.  That's normal for someone with depression and various forms of mental illness -- you don't want to do even the stuff you want to do, let alone stuff that'll be good for you.  He could have stayed the withdrawn figure he was at the first vocal rehearsal on the DVD.  But he didn't.  When he doesn't want to do something, you don't get him bouncing around in the studio for behind-the-scenes DVD extras or re-creating the sequencing sessions -- you get the thousand-yard stare.  What we see over the course of Smile is him getting involved.

Cheers,
Jon Blum

[Jonathan Blum]

Nope. That's YOUR preferred narrative.

...Yes, that's why I said "at least as valid".

But I'm also saying that I think my preferred narrative is the generally preferred narrative.

Jonathan, re-read Dancing Bear's opinion again, then re-read yours. In his heart, which one do think Brian believes?

I think he truly believes Smile is finished.

Cheers,
Jon Blum

[Dancing Bear]

Look, Smile is and always be a lost and unfinished Beach Boys album that should have been released in 1967 but got shelved, after which Brian Wilson, their leader, started his downward spiral. Period. That's rocklore.

Nope.  That's your preferred narrative.  There's another one out there now which is at least as valid:  the genius who started his great work, lost his grip, and after many years and with a fair bit of help from his friends managed to face it again and finish it.  That's your biopic, right there.

Are there people saying stuff like that out there? Jesus. They must have watched Beautiful Dreamer one time too many.

Next time they make a movie about Brian Wilson, you see if it doesn't have that ending....

Are they remaking Beautiful Dreamer in the next decade? Interesting. 

[Jonathan Blum]

BWPS however is not the same. Firstly the principle composers are significantly involved in the 'reconstruction', unlike Knossos Palace. Secondly they are not attaching the new bits (e.g. the new melody/words to Blue Hawaii/dada) to the original fragments, which means the original sessions remain entirely unspoiled by the new reconstruction. This allows the hardcore fan to easily appreciate the ruins as they stood in 67, to discern what in the 04 rebuild is largely authentic to the original design (i.e. Cabinessence) and to spot what is a new addition.

Second, ATTACHING NEW BITS is exactly what they did do. They changed the song titles, the endings (eliminating the great fades), added new lyrics (to the instrumentals), put in discarded lyrics (in "Good Vibrations"), added a female voice, and added new art work (because they were too cheap to pay for the old stuff?).

I think buddhahat's point is that the existence of "In Blue Hawaii" does not change or overwrite the existence of "I Love To Say Dada", which remains freely available to anyone who picks up the box set (or, IIRC, the Beach Boys Smile playlist on iTunes).

In direct contrast to the reconstruction of Knossos, which did change the original.

Cheers,
Jon Blum

[Sheriff John Stone]

Yes, his wife had to suggest and nudge him into it.  That's normal for someone with depression and various forms of mental illness -- you don't want to do even the stuff you want to do, let alone stuff that'll be good for you.

Yes, but it's NOT normal for someone with depression and various forms of mental illness to be able to FINISH a project, of arguably his greatest work, of arguably anybody's greatest work - 37 years after the fact. Not only is it not normal, it's unbelievable, to me anyway. Oh, I suppose someone could attempt it, and call it "finished". I mean, they can sit in front of a camera and say anything they want, or are told to say. But, that doesn't make it finished. Then we start to get into that area of the "f" word, and I don't mean finished.

[Dancing Bear]

which one do think Brian believes?

I think he doesn't care. But he must be glad that he has a new quick answer for those who bug him about Smile. "BWPS is my final say on the subject" certainly beats "I burned all the tapes".

[Wilsonista]

Yes, his wife had to suggest and nudge him into it.  That's normal for someone with depression and various forms of mental illness -- you don't want to do even the stuff you want to do, let alone stuff that'll be good for you.

Yes, but it's NOT normal for someone with depression and various forms of mental illness to be able to FINISH a project, of arguably his greatest work, of arguably anybody's greatest work - 37 years after the fact. Not only is it not normal, it's unbelievable, to me anyway. Oh, I suppose someone could attempt it, and call it "finished". I mean, they can sit in front of a camera and say anything they want, or are told to say. But, that doesn't make it finished. Then we start to get into that area of the "f" word, and I don't mean finished.

Admit it. You don't like it and will never like it because it was done without the Beach Boys.

[Sheriff John Stone]

which one do think Brian believes?

I think he doesn't care. But he must be glad that he has a new quick answer for those who bug him about Smile. "BWPS is my final say on the subject" certainly beats "I burned all the tapes".

Rocker, with the aid of this message board, TV, YouTube, and other sources, I've seen several filmed interviews with Brian Wilson concerning BWPS. Not all, but several. He has been interviewed by a variety of people, asking a variety of questions, in different settings, with Brian being in all kinds of "conditions". And, those interviews go a long way in telling me what I need to know about what Brian's believes about SMiLE and BWPS.

[Wilsonista]

which one do think Brian believes?

I think he doesn't care. But he must be glad that he has a new quick answer for those who bug him about Smile. "BWPS is my final say on the subject" certainly beats "I burned all the tapes".

Rocker, with the aid of this message board, TV, YouTube, and other sources, I've seen several filmed interviews with Brian Wilson concerning BWPS. Not all, but several. He has been interviewed by a variety of people, asking a variety of questions, in different settings, with Brian being in all kinds of "conditions". And, those interviews go a long way in telling me what I need to know about what Brian's believes about SMiLE and BWPS.

Enlighten us, Great Sheriff! Tell those of us delusional souls who actually liked BWPS all of the varied quotes that "go a long way in telling me what I need to know about what Brian believes about S MiLE and BWPS."

[sofonanm]

Judging by the discussions on this board, FR0WN would be a more appropriate title for the album.

 

[Sheriff John Stone]

Judging by the discussions on this board, FR0WN would be a more appropriate title for the album.

 

This is a good discussion, sofonanm. It's a good exchange of ideas. Jonathan is making some of the best "pro BWPS" points that I've ever read. As somebody posted a few pages back, how many places in the world can you go to read about and discuss the subject of SMiLE. And, as somebody else wrote, if you don't like/agree with some of the posts or posters, nobody's forcing you to read them.