New book-with some rare BB photos....

[Ian]

Just thought I'd mention-I picked up a copy of Dominic Priore and Brian Chidester's (of Dumb Angel Gazette fame) new book- Pop Surf Culture.  The book is not about the BBs per se...but it does have some great photos of the group. Most interesting are five photos I have never seen anywhere.  1) There is a  color photo from 1971-72 of Brian recording with David Sandler for the Spring album- Brian is seated at a moog wearing headphones, while a shirtless Sandler blows on a sax.   2) A circa 1970 photo of Brian at the Radiant Radish-from the same photo session as the only other Radish photo I have seen-but this b/w photo is new to me- Brian in his striped robe, is writing a receipt at the cash register.  3) Some 1962 photos of the group posing with a fan-that were apparently taken during their residency at Pandoras Box-shows Brian, Dennis, Dave, Mike, Carl in their original Pendleton jackets with fan. There is a 2nd photo of Dennis with the same fan.  4) A photo taken in Australia in 1964 that shows the group holding up Little Pattie-a young pop singer.  Brian and Mike are holding her in their arms-while the other BBs crouch beneath them   5) There is also a cool color snap of the BBs in their Pendleton jackets performing in 1963-with Brian and Dave.   The book is not really a BB book and you won't find any new info on them, but it is a cool book-with great photos of the era- Dale, Surfers, etc. 

[the captain]

1) There is a  color photo from 1971-72 of Brian recording with David Sandler for the Spring album- Brian is seated at a moog wearing headphones, while a shirtless Sandler blows on a sax. 

Sounds cool, but I'd like to go on record against shirtless musicianship. Thank you for your support: vote luther in '08.

[PongHit]

Cool, can you post scans?

[Ian]

I no longer have a scanner, sorry...

[MBE]

Just read this and the photos are cool. The problem I have is that the book goes into great detail on the instrumental music in One Man's Challenge claiming it is by the Beach Boys. Jon Stebbins has refuted that and nothing Andrew or Ian have written lead me to believe it's true. A huge error.

[mrski]

Not wanting to go off on a tangent but another new book is available, the 4th edition of "The Illustrated Discography Of Surf Music 1961-1965" by John Blair...

 http://www.johnblair.us/ongoing.htm

Again perhaps not one for exclusive BBoys fans, (although the detail is such to list in their discography section a promo give away 45 of 'Boogie Woodie'), but a must have for any fan of the whole surfing genre...

An excellent reference book, some great photos, including one of Little Pattie, this time with The Surfaris, (same '64 Australian tour).

[MBE]

Anything rare Beach Boys wise as far as photos interviews etc.

[mrski]

Nothing rare for the slightly better than average BBoy fan, although the book also contains discography sections for the surf period on The Honeys, Jan & Dean, Gary Usher groups etc...

It is an attempt to list all the known released 'surf' influenced records from the period, which includes both 'vocal' and 'instrumental' styles.

I think it is fair to say that the majority of the releases documented are independant small label releases from 'one shot wonders' (The Frogmen are in there for example), (although perhaps not the best example as they released more than one record!), complimented by full discographies of the heavy-weights of the genre (Dick Dale, Bel-Airs, Surfaris, Lively Ones, Chantays, Eddie & The Showmen, Challengers et al.)

It's a great reference book for any one who collects records from the whole genre, sections on singles, albums, and surf films are all sprinkled with colour pictures of record labels, period reviews and news clippings, promo (and otherwise) photos (mainly B/W)...

Not for the average BBoy fan but highly recommended for anyone with more than a psssing interest in the whole 60s surf shebang.

[MBE]

Thanks for the info.

[Malc]

Not wanting to go off on a tangent but another new book is available, the 4th edition of "The Illustrated Discography Of Surf Music 1961-1965" by John Blair...

 http://www.johnblair.us/ongoing.htm

I also note that the discography of Hot-Rod Music is having a re-issue - but, as someone who has both earlier editions, is the updated Surf Discog worth getting ? Is there THAT MUCH difference 

[mrski]

I also note that the discography of Hot-Rod Music is having a re-issue - but, as someone who has both earlier editions, is the updated Surf Discog worth getting ? Is there THAT MUCH difference 

Well, previously I had the 2nd edition of the Surf Music Discography which I got directly from John in the early/mid 80s... In comparing that to this new 4th edition, there is much more record information included, although there are several albeit obscure photos/flyers which appear in both books. But on the other hand there are many photos I'd never seen before, including what appears to be an early picture of The Surfaris, (in addition to the one of them and Little Pattie), one of The Surf Bunnies,The Beach Girls and one of The Blazers are just some that spring to mind...

I never got the 3rd edition as I believe the original plan was to publish both the 'Surf' and "Hot Rod' discographies in the one book, I hung out for that although with the passage of time a combined issue never came to pass...

So, as for the difference between editions 3 and 4 of the Surf discography, obviously I can't say... 

I'm still glancing through it at the moment having not yet got down to any 'serious' study, but I have noticed many tracks which featured on the compilations "Surfin' In The Midwest", "The Surfer's Mood" , "The Surf Creature", "Strummin' Mental" etc. which did not feature in the 2nd edition are now there, (things like 'Boondocker' by The Clashmen for example ), with band line-up and full release details where known. But there are also many unheard (by me) new additions...

But Malc, I'm sure you know what this book is all about!

At the risk of repeating myself, perhas not for the armchair surf music fan, but if you're one of those people who are interested to discover the recorded output of Ray Hunt and The (pre Lively Ones) Surf Men, and to tick the tracks off as you collect/buy/exchange them, then this book is for you!

[Malc]

Curses ... that means I've got to shell out for it, along with the forthcoming Hot-Rod epic - tho' John recently told me it will HOPEFULLY be in publication for a while to come ... no rush ... yet !
As for "Pop Surf Culture" ... well, it's a FANTASTIC presentation but, as pointed out already, a number of glaring errors tend to dilute the overall impact. A shame really as many of these errors will become the untrue truth over the forthcoming years 
One Mans Challenge, The Westwoods, Ronny & the Daytonas, The Jalopy Five ... and that's just from a first reading ! Oh well ... 

[Jon Stebbins]

Although there are some annoying factoid errors in this book, I heavily recommend it to any BB's fan or surf fan or popular culture fan. It truly is a gorgeous and well thought out presentation.  I'm a fan of Domenic's work and i consider him one of my inspirations for getting involved in writing books. He digs up stuff that no one has seen, over and over. But Domenic is a strange combination, he's as good a researcher as there is anywhere. On the other hand he's not a good fact checker, he lets stuff slip through the cracks that is easily provable to be wrong, and he has trouble admitting when he's called on it. All his books have this combination of wonderful discoveries and wrong factual turns. But to me Domenic is unique and I'll always be happy to see more from him. Too many authors get too precious or even serious with their work and words, there is no sense of fun or discovery in what they present. Domenic never has this problem. He's irreverent, he's controversial, he is sometimes off base, he can be difficult, but i wish there were a few more Rock authors like him. His passion carries him through and he gets things done.

Brian Chidester is an incredibly sharp person. He has tremendous aesthetic judgment and taste. Brian is also a passionate person when it comes to getting things done. This book really shows off Brian's talents. I admire these guys and I totally LOVE this book. Buy it and you will too. Don't get too hung up on the errors, appreciate the fact that you will learn things and see things that you cannot anywhere else. Its not as if this is a Keith Badman info bible that turns out to be filled with bad info. Pop Surf Culture is a pastiche, an overview, a window into a universe that's gone...and above all its FUN! Nice job Brian and Domenic.

[Malc]

Don't get me wrong ... I was mightily impressed with the book, and coming from a landlocked section of the UK this puts the 'era' even more into perspective for me. The photos, images, layout are second to none (bar the duplicated text on page 43 - poor proof reading methinks !) and I'd recommend it to anyone. A perfect companion piece to the Riding Giants movie in fact ...
It's just that ... well, it kinda bugs me when I see a simple fact clearly not double checked ! Mind you, I'm always open to correction on any of my works ... 

[MBE]

Jon I agree with you about Domenic and Brian. The book is worthy it leaves nothing out really. Just great to see the Beach Boys placed in that context. The David Marks era did have such a big impact that I don't think people like myself who were too young to have been there understood until the last few years.

[brianc]

I'm not sure where the information came from that the Beach Boys DIDN'T record the instrumentals for "One Man's Challenge." Domenic Priore was friends with the film's director/producer, Dale Smallin. The two had lunch together in San Francisco for five years. Smallin told Priore that the Beach Boys DID record those musical interludes. So what information has come forward to counter that fact?

[MBE]

While Dave Smallin may have related that info, I just have found nothing to back it up. David said that he didn't recall doing anything but the one song. How Stebbins described their involvement with One Man's Challenge makes the whole thing seem pretty spontaneous. In the film I am almost positive that Surfin Safari is live thus no special session or sessions. The credits of the actual movie make it seem pretty clear that the Raindrops recorded most of the other music, and the Genteels did the theme.
 http://www.rudolfmusic.com/bb.htm has all the info as I understand it.

[MBE]

Here is the research I did two years ago and the Stebbins info.
 Re: The Peter Ames Carlin Thread
« Reply #407 on: October 02, 2006, 06:14:19 AM »   

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Ok I watched the film and a little bit about it.
Badman says One Man's Challenge was filmed 7-28-62. I agree with that by looking at them and knowing their chronology. As far as the music, first I will list what the credits say. Music by the Beach Boys and the Raindrops. Title song "the Hitchhiker" by the Genteels. So here is what I found the Genteels were a real group on Capitol who released a single of that song. Roger Christian narrates the film. Some of the music is played live or synched by a very young band that must be the Raindrops. Some of the film music sounds very pre rock nothing like Brian's stuff. Some of it has a generic "surf" instrumental sound. These seem to match the music played by the Raindrops when they are shown on screen. One track sounds a little like "What'd I Say". Another has vague similarities to Surf Jam but nothing that I would notice if I wasn't looking for it. Nothing sounds like All Summer Long to me. Nothing sticks out as being Brian Wilson or the Beach Boys. I am 95 percent convinced that nothing other then Surfin' Safari was recorded by the Beach Boys or Brian for the film. There is certainly a chance that they did but Brian did not carry much clout yet so I doubt he would have been asked to score a film. I could be wrong but I hope this can at least be seen as an educated guess. 
 
 
 
 
Jon Stebbins
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    Re: The Peter Ames Carlin Thread
« Reply #408 on: October 02, 2006, 10:39:57 AM »   

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MBE's right. What ended up being the hit version of Surfin' Safari was recorded in April '62 before the band was signed. They signed their initial agreement with Capitol in May. The One Man's Challenge footage is from late July '62. It was filmed prior to a BB's gig at the Azusa Teen Club, where they played regularly that summer. The question is where does the audio generate from. David Marks recalls them setting up and playing live for the cameras. The track sounds very live to me. The footage looks staged. The film makers may have taken the audio from one take and then had the guys do a more camera friendly visual take. that's my guess. I'd bet that it was all done the same day...and what you hear in the film is exactly like the BB's sounded in summer '62. Notice the guitars are MUCH bigger than on any World Pacific stuff. The reason is they switched to Fender equipment just as Dave entered the group in late February. Al points out himself in the new DM book that he wanted no part of the electric rock sound and that was all developed by Carl and David. He also admits that it subsequently opened a whole new world for Brian.

Personally I don't think any of the other music in OMC has anything to do with the BB's. I sat and watched the film with David recently and he felt the same.
 
 

[brianc]

So let me get this straight...

You guys have basically claimed that Domenic and I did not do our proper fact check here, with your own claims attesting to being certain beyond certain that the BBs involvement in OMC was factual proven incorrect. And then you come back with THIS?

David Marks' recall to John Stebbins some 40 odd years later? The same guy who was 13 years old at the time, and playing how many number of malt shops and rec halls? So, we are to believe Dave Marks over Dale Smallin, who directed and produced the film? I'll have you know, Domenic Priore worked at Dodger Stadium with Dave Marks in the '80s, and not only did Dale Smallin confirm the BBs involvement with the OMC soundtrack, but Dave Marks said the same to Domenic.

So Marks said one thing to Domenic in the '80s, something else to Stebbins two decades later.

See, and here I thought you guys were going to have Raindrops sessions sheets or master logs from the editing booth or something. You have your ears and ONE contradictory claim from Dave Marks? It's utterly preposterous that you could take our research abilities to task when you literally have NOTHING here.

Look, we covered over 100 years of surfing in the arts for this book. Two sources confirming the BBs involvement with OMC seems to be enough fact-checking. Furthermore, we asked Alan Boyd multiple times over about early '60s Beach Boys research. I sat with him on the phone for hours going over early '60s titles that he might have come across in the Brother vault or the Capitol vault. He never ran across anything on OMC. We contacted Dick Clark Productions about logs on OMC, way before we ever started "Pop Surf Culture." No one had anything hard and fast. If the BBs were proven NOT to have recorded the backing music, fine. We'd be more than happy to list the proper band. But, the next best thing was to take the director/producer at his word. And yes, the melody of "Surf Jam" IS a part of the background music soundtrack, delivered in the same minimal recording technique applied to the rest of the soundtrack, which wasn't out of the ordinary for a band that just recorded, essentially, a garage 45 for Candix. Even the BBs' first Capitol album isn't a massive production, but I'm sure the fidelity of Capitol Studios could trump those of anything Smallin or Hite Morgan could afford. Comparing ANYTHING by Brian from 1962 to the All Summer Long productions is ridiculous.

[brianc]

Jon Stebbins has refuted that and nothing Andrew or Ian have written lead me to believe it's true. A huge error.

Please post this refutation, with the hard facts of Stebbins' research.

[Jon Stebbins]

Whoa Brian...I said I love the book, and I didn't bring the thing about OMC up. That wasn't me. Domenic has written plenty of things through the years that other people have found less than credible...that's no bulletin...his latest Smile book gets a constant pounding on these boards(not by me). I was referring to the fact that perfect 100% correctness does not bother me because I love where he is coming from. That was my point, go back and read my comments on the book again. But just because someone was there, as in the case of this director Smallin, doesn't automatically make it true(supporting evidence would be good and I don't see any anywhere, including listening to the material). There was a well circulated anecdote(maybe by Domenic) that the BB's didn't sing on Surfer Girl, the story was that it was Brian's friends who sang with him on it(Norberg, Survivors?) while the BB's were on tour. That anecdote came directly from Norberg i believe, and anyway its not true...all you have to do is listen to the session and you can obviously hear its the five Beach Boys and no one else. Brian once said its Al Jardine singing with Carl on Summertime Blues...but its not...Al was not there, his voice doesn't sound like that... its Dave Marks singing with Carl...so should we not believe the guy who produced and arranged the session? Yes. Hite Morgan once said Dennis wasn't on the Surfin' session... but just listen to the record, his voice is obviously on it. Should we not believe the guy who ran the session? Yes. Hal Blaine says he played the drums on Surfin' USA...except he didn't. Carole Kaye says she played rhythm guitar on that song, except she didn't... and she also said that Carl didn't play the lead...except he did. I could fill a hundred pages with anecdotes and remembrances from people who were "there" or worked on the material that are not factually true. Sometimes they are the worst resources for facts. Dave Marks has said a lot of thingsin the past  that didn't hold up to scrutiny, but you'll notice that most if not all of them were said while he was a drunk and a drug addict, as in precisely when he worked with Domenic and told him about OMC. Dave's been sober for 8 or 9 years now. His memory is very very solid, but more than that he knows the BB's sound when he hears it. I was someone who believed the music on OMC does not sound at all like the BB's...my opinion...that's where the basis of my hunch that its not them generates from...from my ears. With that in mind I sat and watched the film with Dave(sober Dave) and we paused and rewound and listened to all of that stuff...and he was very sure it was not them. That's what I believe, my opinion backed by Dave's who would know his guitar and Carl's when he heard it. If there was evidence to contradict this other than one person's recollection, (yes he was the director but he didn't play the music... and guitar playing is like a fingerprint) I'd be the first to admit I'm wrong. Anyway, i really have no interest in needing to be right on this matter...your opinion nis as good as mine...I trust what Dave told me because it was carefully considered, you trust Smallin for the previous stated reasons. My ears are the tie breaker for me, apparently your ears tell you something different. It wouldn't end my world if it turned out to be the opposite of what i believe. All of our books have things in them that can be refuted or even disproven, hopefully ours have less of that and much more absolute truth. But the bottom line is, that Pop Surf Culture is a damn great book, that's what I was trying to say...and I'm a fan.

[brianc]

**There was a well circulated anecdote(maybe by Domenic) that the BB's didn't sing on Surfer Girl, the story was that it was Brian's friends who sang with him on it(Norberg, Survivors?) while the BB's were on tour. That anecdote came directly from Norberg i believe, and anyway its not true**

I've known Domenic for almost fifteen years now, and never once has he ever said anything like that to me. The closest I've ever heard him say was that "Your Summer Dream" featured the Norberg guys backing a solo BW vocal. But Domenic told me that was Norberg's story and not confirmed.

[brianc]

John,

I have no beef with you, and I appreciate your kind words about the book. You and I have a mutual admiration society that doesn't need restating in public, but at every turn, you and I have tried to make laudatory comments about eachother's work, and I know you mean it as much as I do. Thank you, as always.

And I respect your opinion about what you hear on the film. I also respect what David has gone through, and his efforts to clear the deck of misnomers over the years. That being said, "Pop Surf Culture" was taken to task here... not by you... and the OMC example was labeled "a huge error," of which, our claim has been definitely refuted. It has not.

Furthermore, whether it is the Raindrops or the Beachboys... besides not being definitely known at this time... the Beachboys' "Surf Jam," in an early version, is played on OMC. Therefore, whether they played that themselves or the Raindrops played a new BW song in '62... we are still talking about, at least, some of OMC being soundtracked by the BBs. I'm still going with Dale Smallin until further evidence pops up.

But, regardless of whether or not Domenic has been questioned in the past, I would hope that people would allow for his reputation to grow positively as well as negatively, should the work warrant it. In the case of "Pop Surf Culture," it was co-written by ME. I may have posted my share of good AND bad information on a message board, where it is conversational in nature, but so far as my publishing goes, I always try to do fact checks thoroughly. Granted, some things will always be up for refutation, and evidence can always evolve further to create more clarity. I just was astounded that someone would take the entire book to task based on something we wrote that was not only NOT refuted, but far as I can tell, NOT an error, nor a "huge error." Until further evidence, we are very much in the right here. We went on the evidence we had:

[1] Dale Smallin's claim that the BBs recorded the soundtrack.

[2] Dave Marks' claim that the BBs recorded the soundtrack. In fact, he told Domenic that he remembered the session being a quick one-day thing.

[3] An early version of "Surf Jam" on there, which is NOT the live performance.

[MBE]

So let me get this straight...

You guys have basically claimed that Domenic and I did not do our proper fact check here, with your own claims attesting to being certain beyond certain that the BBs involvement in OMC was factual proven incorrect. And then you come back with THIS?

David Marks' recall to John Stebbins some 40 odd years later? The same guy who was 13 years old at the time, and playing how many number of malt shops and rec halls? So, we are to believe Dave Marks over Dale Smallin, who directed and produced the film? I'll have you know, Domenic Priore worked at Dodger Stadium with Dave Marks in the '80s, and not only did Dale Smallin confirm the BBs involvement with the OMC soundtrack, but Dave Marks said the same to Domenic.

So Marks said one thing to Domenic in the '80s, something else to Stebbins two decades later.

See, and here I thought you guys were going to have Raindrops sessions sheets or master logs from the editing booth or something. You have your ears and ONE contradictory claim from Dave Marks? It's utterly preposterous that you could take our research abilities to task when you literally have NOTHING here.

Look, we covered over 100 years of surfing in the arts for this book. Two sources confirming the BBs involvement with OMC seems to be enough friggin'. Furthermore, we asked Alan Boyd multiple times over about early '60s Beach Boys research. I sat with him on the phone for hours going over early '60s titles that he might have come across in the Brother vault or the Capitol vault. He never ran across anything on OMC. We contacted Dick Clark Productions about logs on OMC, way before we ever started "Pop Surf Culture." No one had anything hard and fast. If the BBs were proven NOT to have recorded the backing music, fine. We'd be more than happy to list the proper band. But, the next best thing was to take the director/producer at his word. And yes, the melody of "Surf Jam" IS a part of the background music soundtrack, delivered in the same minimal recording technique applied to the rest of the soundtrack, which wasn't out of the ordinary for a band that just recorded, essentially, a garage 45 for Candix. Even the BBs' first Capitol album isn't a massive production, but I'm sure the fidelity of Capitol Studios could trump those of anything Smallin or Hite Morgan could afford. Comparing ANYTHING by Brian from 1962 to the All Summer Long productions is ridiculous.

Upon reading your reply I can see you were offended by my comment and I am sorry if I came off harsh. Looking at it now it reads a lot more nasty then I meant it. I liked the book a lot-bought two of them in fact. Perhaps you didn't spot that I gave it high marks otherwise but as you yourself point out there is only anecdotal evidence that they did the soundtrack. To say we have nothing.. I mean Jon sat down and watched the thing with David which I am sure would have been the first time he saw the whole thing in decades. I wrote "Title song "the Hitchhiker" by the Genteels. So here is what I found the Genteels were a real group on Capitol who released a single of that song."    is that not proof that the Beach Boys did not do the title song?

I am not going to dismiss what you guys did at all. It sounds like you did a good job tracking down info, but unless paperwork comes up I am not 100 percent convinced. I hear some vaguely similar riffs to Surf Jam personally, but not the exact song. Again the film credits also make me question that the Beach Boys did anything but Surfin Safari. Now that I know what went in to your work I am a lot more open to the fact the Beach Boys may have done something here, and  again I am sorry about how I rushed to judgement before I knew the facts behind your and Domenic's work.

P.S. I took mine and Jon's posts from the Peter Aims Carlin thread where Bob Haines asked me to watch the movie. He made the All Summer Long comment-I am responding to it. http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,1337.400.html
Mike

[brianc]

Hi MBE,

I'm sorry if I came across as too harsh, and believe me, I think it's very interesting that Dave Marks watched the movie with John Stebbins, and I acknowledge an artist's guitar-sound being akin to the fingerprint of a musician. That being said, we went with the information we had. Beyond that, we never claimed that the main theme was written by the Beachboys, nor performed by them. In fact, both Domenic and myself have the Genteels 45, and sought it out because of the OMC movie. We both have DJ'd "The Hitchhiker" at clubs and on Luxuria radio. That's one of THEE classic examples of the beatnik surf aesthetic.

If it came across that I was suggesting that the main theme was by the Beachboys, I know I would have never meant to imply that. I know it was never in anything I published, but it might have seemed like I was implying that on a message board post. However, again, the thought never crossed my mind.

Thanks to all for your very kind comments. Apologies if I seemed a bit overly protective. Hopefully, someday we will have more to go on than memories and ears. Some session contractual info or master tapes would go a long way.

Brian