New book-with some rare BB photos....

[MBE]

Thanks for your responce and again I am sorry that I rushed to judgment before knowing the facts.

[Carrie Marks]

So Marks said one thing to Domenic in the '80s, something else to Stebbins two decades later.

Since there are conflicting accounts and both are using David as a witness, I ran this past him for clarification. He doesn't deny saying that to Dominic (although he doesn't remember it) but he said that he was so coked-up and drunk (besides having general bitterness towards anything Beach Boys) when he was hanging out with Dominic 20 years ago that he wouldn't trust anything he said back then...he just didn't care! He also said in another interview around that same time that he was in the Beach Boys until 1965, so there you go....

On the other hand, I was there when Jon and David were meticulously analyzing OMC - and there was certain things about watching that movie that spurred some very specific memories - for example, hearing the sound track reminded him that he and Carl wrote an instrumental together that was never recorded but was performed live many times called Blue City. 

Anyway, David was pretty clear-headed, and in a reminiscent and positive frame of mind when they went over that soundtrack, and the conclusion he came to after listening to actual musical evidence is obviously different than whatever he may have said to Dominic off the cuff w/out any thought or regard for facts. And for what its worth, today sober-and-reacquainted-with-the-music Dave says he has no memories of recording that soundtrack.

[brianc]

Hi Carrie,

Thanks for your post. I don't know the exact circumstances of David 20 years ago versus David today. I'm sure you guys are in a better position to judge his state than I am. And I appreciate the input. It is worth quite a lot. However, without documentation to prove otherwise, it is simply Dale's word versus David's word.

As for the bit in my book, it might have been a bit too much information to talk about the instrumentals in OMC, while at the same time trying to explain the lost masters and session information to the reader. Most readers would simply not be interested in the fact checking details of a soundtrack that we considered already confirmed. That stuff is, obviously, best left to the discussion forums. If it can be proven with documentation that the instrumentals on OMC were recorded by a band other than the BBs, I'd be happy to suggest a revision, when the book is reprinted. Anyone who has read the book would probably understand that neither Domenic nor myself wish to attribute anything the BBs didn't record to them. Quite the contrary, the book praises all manner of artists and bands, regardless of their celebrity status. I could care less if a band is famous or not. The music is what counts. Always.

All my best to David, and thanks again to you guys for letting us use the picture of Dave and the BBs in their Pendleton shirts in the book!

Brian

[brianc]

On the other hand, I was there when Jon and David were meticulously analyzing OMC - and there was certain things about watching that movie that spurred some very specific memories - for example, hearing the sound track reminded him that he and Carl wrote an instrumental together that was never recorded but was performed live many times called Blue City.[/quote]

By the way, another very cool tidbit. I wish one of those live versions would pop up someday.

One thing I will add about the R&B instrumentals in OMC... it is pretty obvious that rock and R&B instrumentals were pervasive in the surf scene. I wouldn't want to diminish David's take on his guitar sound. If he feels that that was not his guitar playing, then that is equally persuasive evidence as Dale Smallin's absolute certification that he recorded the BBs for the soundtrack.

Regardless, the point of said paragraph in "Pop Surf Culture" was to point out R&B tracks like "Honky Tonk" by Bill Doggett and other such cuts that were recorded by surf bands. Chapter 16, in which OMC is discussed, is all about the stock surf music examples that came FROM Southern California and hit nationwide in 1963. The previous five chapters were all about the SoCal bands, singles and nightclubs that took off locally. Chapter 16 is about the national explosion of surf music, and how the Beach Boys' 1963 sound was very much based in the nightclub scene of L.A. Of course, chapter 17 is where we see it go international. 1964. There was a definite story-arc there, and even if the BBs didn't record the OMC soundtrack, the notion that R&B instrumentals permeated the surf music scene stands true.

[brianc]

Thanks for your responce and again I am sorry that I rushed to judgment before knowing the facts.

No problem MBE. I don't mind being challenged, provided the evidence against something I wrote is strong. I think John Stebbins or any other author that post here would agree that there are at least three tiers of fact checking that come up:

[1] Contractual information, or some physical paperwork with dates and times... a time-stamped tapebox... a photo contact sheet with a time-stamp... an advertisement... these are usually the most solid form of fact checking that an author or researcher can have. That being said, the contractual paperwork can have its problems as well. Specifically in the world of music, a contract for a concert doesn't necessitate that the show ever took place. Artists have cancellations for a variety of reasons. Sessions too. But contracts and tape boxes and that type of paperwork, I would consider first tier.

[2] Next tier would be an article or interview from the actual time when the event or action took place. Again, we know the problems here. The journalist may have given their opinion on something that was said or heard, which could have changed or been mis-reported on. In the instance of music, of course, artists say all kinds of things that never come to pass.

[3] The next tier would be an interview with the artist or someone who was present at the time of the event, recorded years after the event took place. These are important, but of course #1 and/or 2 are preferred. When #1, 2 and 3 all seem to line up, with little to no discrepancy, you have what one would call a "solid fact." That's rare. But we do the best we can to present things that generally fit with the story, and at some point, claims in fact have to be made. But almost anything and everything is disputable.

[MBE]

Brian I am a writer myself and I see we agree completely on how to gather info. Yet it's funny how many writers (none here) don't follow those simple steps.

The most frustrating thing I see writers do is copy info from other sources without making sure it is correct thus not following the three rules you laid out. In the Beach Boys case the thing that gets me mad is how many people lift stuff from "Brian's" autobiography. With all the info out there refuting it, it shouldn't be used as a source at all except in the rare instance a story or quote can be confirmed someplace or by someone else. The driving to the beach "Till I Die" story may be poetic, but it never appeared before then. Still I have seen three or four other books and articles use it as stone hard fact, Badman even quotes and says falsely that it was a press release. The Inside the Music of Brian Wilson book also borrows liberally from Todd Gold, and while of course there is nothing salacious used I just hate to see the Beach Boys work misrepresented.

Again I want to thank you for clarifying things for all of us here, and I hope we do find out more about One Man's Challenge one day. If I ever come across something I will be certain to pass it on.

[brianc]

You know, I don't keep up with all of the Beach Boys books, though I have a pretty big library myself. I had no idea ANYONE was still using Brian's discredited autobiography as a primary source.

I must have had a pretty good journalism 101 teacher, as those simple rules always did me well. You'd be surprised how many people go on 3rd tier quotes alone for their facts. With OMC, the early version of "Surf Jam" in the film seems to lend credence to those later statements delivered to Domenic... essentially a set of #3's -- years-after confirmation quotes from Dale Smallin and David Marks. Now that David has denied his involvement, and claimed that he was not sober enough to be trusted in the '80s... it's sorta back to the drawing board. And, again, hopefully some more information will emerge.

What do you write about? I'd love to read anything you've published, in print or online.

Brian

[MBE]

Well I have written text in seven books. Five on Elvis Presley, one on the Beatles and one on the Three Stooges. Recently I did the liners for an Elvis dvd and also wrote the info used to introduce the various clips. This is a review of the latest book
http://www.elvisnews.com/Presentation/Functional/Page/shop.aspx?command=show&item=1379
As I mentioned here before I am doing a song by song look at the Beach Boys original LP's and 45's. It's a different format then Andrew's work with a lot of new interviews and a certain degree of  biography as far as what went into making each album. I am trying to not only view them from today's standpopint but also try to access how they were viewed in their time. As a big vinyl fan I also include quite a bit of info as to what has been released in that format over the last twenty years. I have been working on it on and off for many years, but am about sixty percent done with the final draft. It would have been done sooner, but I do a lot of freelance work for JAT Publishing in Chicago so my attention gets diverted away from it sometimes. Everyone here really has been a real encouragement. Domenic read a very early draft and was pretty encouraging too. I think my main goal with it is to give every Beach Boys his due. I try to present a balance giving all sides a voice. In saying that I also am not afraid to offer strong criticism on many of their post Endless Summer decisions. All in all I hope it will offer some new views and bring some previously unknown facts to light. Feel free to email me anytime if you want to know more and I can send you a sample of something I did. edermike@msn.com

[Carrie Marks]

Brian,

One thing about David's memory that I think Jon and Andrew would both agree with, is that he has a remarkable memory for situations - but terrible recall of chronology...he will remember a specific note he missed on Our Car Club, but he'd tell you it was recorded in 1964. In this case, he remembers them recording "our parts" for OMC, but whether that was Surfin' Safari and Surf Jam, or whether it was just Surfin' Safari is not something he would necessarily recall.  However, he does know they didn't record any covers...just their own material. 

Its entirely possible that they did record Surf Jam and Surfin' Safari...and Dale Smallin remembers them being in the studio recording and now, all these years later, associates that with a few extra songs that they really didn't do.  And if Dominic asked David a question about it 20 years ago, I'm  sure this is what David heard:

 "Did you record.....One Man's Challenge?.....No, not the one with the sailor suits, the one with the Pendeltons"  And then he quickly says yes, knowing they did record for it, and without any idea Dominic was even talking about something other than what they lip synced to.  Point is, its probably somewhere in between rather than an either-or situation. 

If David ever has a chance to watch that video again he could probably listen specifically to the part with Surf Jam and see if its him and Carl.  He may have closed his mind to it being them at a certain point and just missed it the first time around? 

[Jon Stebbins]

I have a hard time thinking of Surf Jam as a specific composition. Its just a standard rock and roll progression that anyone who learned to play the guitar and listened to Little Richard/Chuck Berry/Bo Diddley/Buddy Holly etc.. would automatically know. The only thing that really differentiates the song is that it is all done to a surf style beat...so the feel is very California, very Dennis Wilson in fact. On the SUSA LP version it sounds like Carl does the Duane Eddy/Dick Dale dow dow dow thing with the low notes...and David starts it off by picking out single notes of a typical early rock scale then he switches to the chord progression that a zillion rock songs follow, while Carl solos to that. That's a surf jam for sure, but does it warrant calling it a composition, and one that can be identified as original? Its as original as a Blues Jam...where the originality is in the improvisation and not the structure.

While Surfin Safari in the film OMC really sounds like the BB's(even if my eyes were closed and no one was singing) the guitar tones are typical Carl/Dave and the feel of Brian and Dennis' rhythm is quintessential BB's. I didn't get that specific vibe from anything else in the OMC soundtrack. But if Dave was to hear something that he thought could be he and Carl on there that would be cool and that's why i took the time to go through it with him. Although I didn't expect it... I was actually hoping maybe we'd find a snippet of BB's in there...but truthfully nothing hit the mark...no pun intended. As I recall we both felt the tones and feels didn't match the BB's '62 sound. Maybe Dave will have a different opinion next time, but the one he had on that night in 2005 when we listened together was that nothing on there was the BB's other than Surfin Safari.

[brianc]

Thanks guys. This is all compelling information. Unfortunately, without paperwork OR Dale Smallin alive today, many of these questions about OMC may be left to speculation.

Again, I'm not committed to defending either side. Whatever information comes forward, I will embrace as getting us closer to the truth.

Like I said before, the point of using OMC as an example in the book was always to point out the influence of R&B and rock instrumentals on the nascent surf scene of 1961-62. And so, whether the whole soundtrack was Beachboys, Genteels or Raindrops... or if it was somewhere in between... the point of the sentences in that chapter still make sense, even as hard and fast facts remain somewhat elusive.

And I say this with all due respect to Dave Marks, the late Dale Smallin and the listening/logical skills that many have employed here, myself included. After a decade and a half of beating my head against a wall trying to figure Smile out, who would have thought OMC would be so difficult?

[brianc]

Well I have written text in seven books. Five on Elvis Presley, one on the Beatles and one on the Three Stooges. Recently I did the liners for an Elvis dvd and also wrote the info used to introduce the various clips. This is a review of the latest book
http://www.elvisnews.com/Presentation/Functional/Page/shop.aspx?command=show&item=1379
As I mentioned here before I am doing a song by song look at the Beach Boys original LP's and 45's. It's a different format then Andrew's work with a lot of new interviews and a certain degree of  biography as far as what went into making each album. I am trying to not only view them from today's standpopint but also try to access how they were viewed in their time. As a big vinyl fan I also include quite a bit of info as to what has been released in that format over the last twenty years. I have been working on it on and off for many years, but am about sixty percent done with the final draft. It would have been done sooner, but I do a lot of freelance work for JAT Publishing in Chicago so my attention gets diverted away from it sometimes. Everyone here really has been a real encouragement. Domenic read a very early draft and was pretty encouraging too. I think my main goal with it is to give every Beach Boys his due. I try to present a balance giving all sides a voice. In saying that I also am not afraid to offer strong criticism on many of their post Endless Summer decisions. All in all I hope it will offer some new views and bring some previously unknown facts to light. Feel free to email me anytime if you want to know more and I can send you a sample of something I did. edermike@msn.com

That Elvis Concerts book looks awesome. I just got done re-reading Jerry Hopkins' "Elvis in Hawaii." Nice to hear of another Elvis fan in Beach Boys world. Let me know if I can help in any way with your BBs book. It sounds like a great project. I have a huge pile of collectibles on my desk that I keep forgetting to photocopy for Ian Rustin, but it all eventually goes out...