Does Mike Love realize he is despised by millions of fans?

[KDS]

My supporting Trump and your not supporting him is Sandbox material.  And after some of the nastiness that I encountered here, and other nonBB boards I sometimes participate in, back in January I don't feel like getting into politics. 

To be fair (and clear for the historical record, such that exists and matters), a lot of the Trump stuff from last year and early this year *was* intertwined into on-topic band-related discussions. From Mike's infamous s**t-eating grin photo op from last year, to the inauguration speculation, to the weird post favorably comparing Trump's rally operations to BB tours of the past, a lot of the stuff was intermingled with on-topic discussion, with no clear delineation point for where to break it off.

I felt that an *objective* conversation about the PR problems with the trademark/brand having that association could be had (e.g. even someone who personally favors Trump could and should be able to realize the PR problems with the BB brand being associated with him), but obviously that didn't much occur.

That much is true, and it was debated plenty back in January, regarding the rumored BB appearance at the Inauguration that never happened.   It was all much ado about nothing. 

[HeyJude]

My supporting Trump and your not supporting him is Sandbox material.  And after some of the nastiness that I encountered here, and other nonBB boards I sometimes participate in, back in January I don't feel like getting into politics. 

To be fair (and clear for the historical record, such that exists and matters), a lot of the Trump stuff from last year and early this year *was* intertwined into on-topic band-related discussions. From Mike's infamous s**t-eating grin photo op from last year, to the inauguration speculation, to the weird post favorably comparing Trump's rally operations to BB tours of the past, a lot of the stuff was intermingled with on-topic discussion, with no clear delineation point for where to break it off.

I felt that an *objective* conversation about the PR problems with the trademark/brand having that association could be had (e.g. even someone who personally favors Trump could and should be able to realize the PR problems with the BB brand being associated with him), but obviously that didn't much occur.

That much is true, and it was debated plenty back in January, regarding the rumored BB appearance at the Inauguration that never happened.   It was all much ado about nothing. 

More like "much ado about something, though it's not clear how much"; not to dredge up that debate, but Mike and his band *did* play a more or less partisan event related to the inauguration, just a more low-key one that fans had to dig a bit to find.

This is just my conjecture and gut feeling, I'm pretty certain in my gut that Mike *REALLY, REALLY WANTED* to play the full-on inauguration, and I'm guessing either his advisors/agents told him it was a BAD idea, and/or BRI quietly behind the scenes told him he'd face serious consequences if he did it.

The Trump/Love stuff is a real thing (far from "much ado about nothing") and a serious topic that impacts the band and its fans; but it is indeed difficult to broach in any significant way given the political overtones. (I'd argue a lot of, if not most of, the criticisms of Trump related to Mike's association with Trump kind of transcended politics as such and were more pretty basic moral, ethical issues, but even the stuff that the guy said that *everybody* admits was awful still ends up getting parsed and downplayed and ultimately politicized, so it's inevitably a non-starter).

[SMiLE Brian]

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,24775.msg601938.html#msg601938

[guitarfool2002]

I was hoping not to have to get back into a 2 year old issue because I already addressed it and "set the record straight", but KDS, man...you still won't acknowledge that what you brought up wasn't even what I said back in 2015. And you're still doing it.

If this isn't clear enough, maybe there is a better way to spell it out besides stating the facts in plain English. I never cared or argued what your opinion was good or bad toward RD or any other song. But there was an issue where you were seemingly unaware of what the EDM genre actually was, or what it sounded like, yet saw fit to post about RD being something that it was not and never was. It would be like saying Mike's new Do It Again remake was "disco", and using that as a negative factor. It's not disco, right? Therefore it's not a valid point to make or to tell people that the song is disco. A hot dog isn't a hamburger.

So again, I'll restate I never took issue with your like or dislike of that or any tune, in fact I really didn't care at the time and don't care now. But don't come back 2 years after the fact and try to paint a picture of me getting on your case because you didn't like the song. That was never the case, period, case closed.

But with a lot of previous posters, and maybe not coincidentally the bulk of them among Mike's most vocal defenders and supporters and excuse peddlers, it doesn't matter what someone actually said or did...it's open season to twist and parse and even make sh*t up on the fly if your opinion is strong enough, in spite of the facts. Just ask Dr. Beach Boy, and see my sig line for a reminder of that warped logic. It just won't fly, so I'd suggest getting the facts straight before putting words into my mouth or anyone else's.

[KDS]

I was hoping not to have to get back into a 2 year old issue because I already addressed it and "set the record straight", but KDS, man...you still won't acknowledge that what you brought up wasn't even what I said back in 2015. And you're still doing it.

If this isn't clear enough, maybe there is a better way to spell it out besides stating the facts in plain English. I never cared or argued what your opinion was good or bad toward RD or any other song. But there was an issue where you were seemingly unaware of what the EDM genre actually was, or what it sounded like, yet saw fit to post about RD being something that it was not and never was. It would be like saying Mike's new Do It Again remake was "disco", and using that as a negative factor. It's not disco, right? Therefore it's not a valid point to make or to tell people that the song is disco. A hot dog isn't a hamburger.

So again, I'll restate I never took issue with your like or dislike of that or any tune, in fact I really didn't care at the time and don't care now. But don't come back 2 years after the fact and try to paint a picture of me getting on your case because you didn't like the song. That was never the case, period, case closed.

But with a lot of previous posters, and maybe not coincidentally the bulk of them among Mike's most vocal defenders and supporters and excuse peddlers, it doesn't matter what someone actually said or did...it's open season to twist and parse and even make sh*t up on the fly if your opinion is strong enough, in spite of the facts. Just ask Dr. Beach Boy, and see my sig line for a reminder of that warped logic. It just won't fly, so I'd suggest getting the facts straight before putting words into my mouth or anyone else's.

I'm sorry if I can't recount every argument I've ever had on this board, so obviously I shouldn't have brought it up. 

At this point, like I said, I'm willing to move forward and admit that I improperly called Runaway Dancer an EDM song, and not bring it up again. 

I thought I was pretty clear in my post to you yesterday that I was more than willing to apologize and move forward. 

[guitarfool2002]

I was hoping not to have to get back into a 2 year old issue because I already addressed it and "set the record straight", but KDS, man...you still won't acknowledge that what you brought up wasn't even what I said back in 2015. And you're still doing it.

If this isn't clear enough, maybe there is a better way to spell it out besides stating the facts in plain English. I never cared or argued what your opinion was good or bad toward RD or any other song. But there was an issue where you were seemingly unaware of what the EDM genre actually was, or what it sounded like, yet saw fit to post about RD being something that it was not and never was. It would be like saying Mike's new Do It Again remake was "disco", and using that as a negative factor. It's not disco, right? Therefore it's not a valid point to make or to tell people that the song is disco. A hot dog isn't a hamburger.

So again, I'll restate I never took issue with your like or dislike of that or any tune, in fact I really didn't care at the time and don't care now. But don't come back 2 years after the fact and try to paint a picture of me getting on your case because you didn't like the song. That was never the case, period, case closed.

But with a lot of previous posters, and maybe not coincidentally the bulk of them among Mike's most vocal defenders and supporters and excuse peddlers, it doesn't matter what someone actually said or did...it's open season to twist and parse and even make sh*t up on the fly if your opinion is strong enough, in spite of the facts. Just ask Dr. Beach Boy, and see my sig line for a reminder of that warped logic. It just won't fly, so I'd suggest getting the facts straight before putting words into my mouth or anyone else's.

I'm sorry if I can't recount every argument I've ever had on this board, so obviously I shouldn't have brought it up. 

At this point, like I said, I'm willing to move forward and admit that I improperly called Runaway Dancer an EDM song, and not bring it up again. 

I thought I was pretty clear in my post to you yesterday that I was more than willing to apologize and move forward. 

Just this morning you defended what you said about debating the "merits" of RD in a reply to Jim, so I didn't see any change even though you did offer an apology and offer to move on, which I agree and appreciate. So...how about moving on instead of rehashing it yet again as if the discussions from 2015 were about the merits of RD? I never argued with you on the basis of liking or not liking the song as pure opinion, that should be clear from this point on.

It's hard not to get a little pissed off at some of this stuff considering how quite a bit of what I said or wrote got twisted or parsed into things I never said or even suggested, in the name of making points or trying to take shots at me. And I'm not the only one this has happened to. And...again I'll observe most of this garbage came from those who seem to be Mike Love's biggest defenders and supporters. Coincidence or not?

All I know is, the best course to take is stick to the facts and the truth. If those are not on the side being argued, then it's no surprise to see lies and bullshit and parsed words used instead, and it's sad that has become the M.O. in a lot of these discussions...especially since fall 2012.

[KDS]

I was hoping not to have to get back into a 2 year old issue because I already addressed it and "set the record straight", but KDS, man...you still won't acknowledge that what you brought up wasn't even what I said back in 2015. And you're still doing it.

If this isn't clear enough, maybe there is a better way to spell it out besides stating the facts in plain English. I never cared or argued what your opinion was good or bad toward RD or any other song. But there was an issue where you were seemingly unaware of what the EDM genre actually was, or what it sounded like, yet saw fit to post about RD being something that it was not and never was. It would be like saying Mike's new Do It Again remake was "disco", and using that as a negative factor. It's not disco, right? Therefore it's not a valid point to make or to tell people that the song is disco. A hot dog isn't a hamburger.

So again, I'll restate I never took issue with your like or dislike of that or any tune, in fact I really didn't care at the time and don't care now. But don't come back 2 years after the fact and try to paint a picture of me getting on your case because you didn't like the song. That was never the case, period, case closed.

But with a lot of previous posters, and maybe not coincidentally the bulk of them among Mike's most vocal defenders and supporters and excuse peddlers, it doesn't matter what someone actually said or did...it's open season to twist and parse and even make sh*t up on the fly if your opinion is strong enough, in spite of the facts. Just ask Dr. Beach Boy, and see my sig line for a reminder of that warped logic. It just won't fly, so I'd suggest getting the facts straight before putting words into my mouth or anyone else's.

I'm sorry if I can't recount every argument I've ever had on this board, so obviously I shouldn't have brought it up. 

At this point, like I said, I'm willing to move forward and admit that I improperly called Runaway Dancer an EDM song, and not bring it up again. 

I thought I was pretty clear in my post to you yesterday that I was more than willing to apologize and move forward. 

Just this morning you defended what you said about debating the "merits" of RD in a reply to Jim, so I didn't see any change even though you did offer an apology and offer to move on, which I agree and appreciate. So...how about moving on instead of rehashing it yet again as if the discussions from 2015 were about the merits of RD? I never argued with you on the basis of liking or not liking the song as pure opinion, that should be clear from this point on.

It's hard not to get a little pissed off at some of this stuff considering how quite a bit of what I said or wrote got twisted or parsed into things I never said or even suggested, in the name of making points or trying to take shots at me. And I'm not the only one this has happened to. And...again I'll observe most of this garbage came from those who seem to be Mike Love's biggest defenders and supporters. Coincidence or not?

All I know is, the best course to take is stick to the facts and the truth. If those are not on the side being argued, then it's no surprise to see lies and bullshit and parsed words used instead, and it's sad that has become the M.O. in a lot of these discussions...especially since fall 2012.

This was all I said to Jim, who was obviously trying to bait me into a political argument.

"Because a discussion of the merits (or lack thereof) of Runaway Dancer makes sense in the context of this portion of the SSMB."

He mentioned the argument you and I had, not me.  Just a slight mention. 

Now, are you willing to move on, and let bygones by bygones, or not? 

[guitarfool2002]

I thought I had done that already when I logged off yesterday.

[KDS]

I thought I had done that already when I logged off yesterday.

Your beef is with Jim, not with me.  Like I said, he questioned me about it, and I referenced it when I answered his question. 

I made no mention of you, or my genre based basis of the argument.

[Jim V.]

I thought I had done that already when I logged off yesterday.

Your beef is with Jim, not with me.  Like I said, he questioned me about it, and I referenced it when I answered his question. 

I made no mention of you, or my genre based basis of the argument.

What do I have to do with your "Runaway Dancer" argument? All I mentioned was that I kinda dug the live arrangement, and not so much the studio version.

Though I do have to say it's funny that most (if not all) of the apologists for Dr. Love are so-called "conservatives" or Republicans. Sure is odd.

[CenturyDeprived]

I still feel bad for the poor guy that *clearly innocently* referred to Bruce as "BJ" only to have Bruce tear him a new one.

Geez, it's as if Bruce has a thing against BJs or something...

[Jay]

First: "The day Mike came to dinner and I was working on That Lucky Old Sun, we went out to the car. I had written a song called "Mexican Girl," probably the best song ever written about a Mexican girl. I played it for Mike and asked him if he would want to work on the lyrics. 'I could make it 25 percent better, but I don't want to,' he said. 'If we do anything, I want to start from scratch.' There were times that would have made me sad or angry, but in the car it only made me laugh a little. Mike was Mike." (p. 227) 

Then: "We had a piece of a song and Mike finished it up and turned it into "Spring Vacation." His new lyrics were great. They made the song at least 25 percent better." (p. 265)

Unfortunately, I think that song is the weak link on TWGMTR.  Musically, it reminds me of one of John Mayer's poppier songs for some reason.   The lyrics are pretty silly, and the "Easy Money, what's it to ya" bit always makes me chuckle.

That's part of the bit that Brian wrote. I suspect most of his credit was the music.

[JK]

the weird post favorably comparing Trump's rally operations to BB tours of the past

Favorably? Now you're putting words into Mr Desper's mouth. Logistically, okay, but favorably??

[KDS]

I thought I had done that already when I logged off yesterday.

Your beef is with Jim, not with me.  Like I said, he questioned me about it, and I referenced it when I answered his question. 

I made no mention of you, or my genre based basis of the argument.

What do I have to do with your "Runaway Dancer" argument? All I mentioned was that I kinda dug the live arrangement, and not so much the studio version.

Though I do have to say it's funny that most (if not all) of the apologists for Dr. Love are so-called "conservatives" or Republicans. Sure is odd.

You mentioned my previous beef with GF re: Runaway Dancer, and I simply mentioned it in my reply to you. 

[Jim V.]

the weird post favorably comparing Trump's rally operations to BB tours of the past

Favorably? Now you're putting words into Mr Desper's mouth. Logistically, okay, but favorably??

It was pretty obvious that dude was fired up that his candidate was putting on some big rallies and found a decent way of connecting it to The Beach Boys.

Now before you ask how I know who he supported, I'll just say this. I've seen him complain on this board about "not being able to start a business" til we saw how the 2012 election turned out or something like that and then of course the video he posted where a guy sang a hateful, bigoted song about undocumented immigrants to the tune of "Surfin' U.S.A." So I think it's pretty clear where Mr. Desper's head is at. And that's cool. He's a private citizen. And it doesn't take away from his sterling work on 20/20, Sunflower and Surf's Up.

[FatherOfTheMan Sr101]

For as much as I love Brian, I have a lot of respect for Mike Love. He may be seen as the formula guy, but he's responsible for getting a lot of people into the band. The guy can sell the product, something that I'm sure Brian was thankful for back in the day. He's not really a villain, he's more like the parent that sometimes needs to be the bad guy to do the right thing in the long run

[JK]

the weird post favorably comparing Trump's rally operations to BB tours of the past

Favorably? Now you're putting words into Mr Desper's mouth. Logistically, okay, but favorably??

It was pretty obvious that dude was fired up that his candidate was putting on some big rallies and found a decent way of connecting it to The Beach Boys.

Now before you ask how I know who he supported, I'll just say this. I've seen him complain on this board about "not being able to start a business" til we saw how the 2012 election turned out or something like that and then of course the video he posted where a guy sang a hateful, bigoted song about undocumented immigrants to the tune of "Surfin' U.S.A." So I think it's pretty clear where Mr. Desper's head is at. And that's cool. He's a private citizen. And it doesn't take away from his sterling work on 20/20, Sunflower and Surf's Up.

I'm clearly out of my depth (again). My apologies!

[HeyJude]

the weird post favorably comparing Trump's rally operations to BB tours of the past

Favorably? Now you're putting words into Mr Desper's mouth. Logistically, okay, but favorably??

No words were put in anybody's mouth; I didn't quote anybody.

*Definitely* have no interest in dredging up that debate again, especially because a big part of why it blew up was because some saw it as a favorable comparison while others didn't. My interpretation/impression is just that, *my* interpretation. But yeah, there was a *serious* disconnect between people understanding why some found that "tour logistics" post to be ill-advised, so that whole discussion even more quickly than usual blew up. So it's a bad idea to delve back into that one; I only raised it briefly as an example of something that wasn't either solely "political and off-topic" or "100% on-topic", but was instead something in between. Plus, large swaths of that old thread have literally disappeared, rendering even a tired rehash of the debate difficult to undertake.

[HeyJude]

For as much as I love Brian, I have a lot of respect for Mike Love. He may be seen as the formula guy, but he's responsible for getting a lot of people into the band. The guy can sell the product, something that I'm sure Brian was thankful for back in the day. He's not really a villain, he's more like the parent that sometimes needs to be the bad guy to do the right thing in the long run

Don't really agree with that last sentence. I've often said he's more like the parent who harangues his kids about their mistakes 30-40 years after they corrected them and made good. (e.g. going back over the now 30-plus-years-old drug and alcohol abuse of the Wilson brothers, or going over the songwriting lawsuit that he *won* over 20 years ago).

But most everything else is totally correct. Mike should be given a lot of respect and credit for the huge role he played in the band. Briand did and still does *to this day* credit Mike for his huge contributions and seems to fondly remember their collaborations.

Want to know who has damaged Mike's reputation/legacy that more than anybody else? Mike Love. He had about ten billion chances at ten billion different turns over the last half-century-plus to work on it, and he has regularly made it worse. He could have spent the last 20-30 years talking about his work on "Today" or "Sunflower" or "Wild Honey" instead of reminding everyone that Brian did drugs decades ago and he (Mike) didn't.

He has and continues to be on the wrong side of history, and the only time in the last several decades he has managed to contain himself and do *himself* and *his own legacy and rep* tons of favors was an approximately five-month gap between late April 2012 and late September 2012 (or, I'll be generous and extend the beginning of C50 to mid-late 2011, so maybe a year or so at the most), where, I'm guessing, he *had* to play nice to secure any large advances being paid out due to the tour and album.

[JK]

the weird post favorably comparing Trump's rally operations to BB tours of the past

Favorably? Now you're putting words into Mr Desper's mouth. Logistically, okay, but favorably??

No words were put in anybody's mouth; I didn't quote anybody.

*Definitely* have no interest in dredging up that debate again, especially because a big part of why it blew up was because some saw it as a favorable comparison while others didn't. My interpretation/impression is just that, *my* interpretation. But yeah, there was a *serious* disconnect between people understanding why some found that "tour logistics" post to be ill-advised, so that whole discussion even more quickly than usual blew up. So it's a bad idea to delve back into that one; I only raised it briefly as an example of something that wasn't either solely "political and off-topic" or "100% on-topic", but was instead something in between. Plus, large swaths of that old thread have literally disappeared, rendering even a tired rehash of the debate difficult to undertake.

You're right----best left alone. My bad, as they say in US. 

[guitarfool2002]

For as much as I love Brian, I have a lot of respect for Mike Love. He may be seen as the formula guy, but he's responsible for getting a lot of people into the band. The guy can sell the product, something that I'm sure Brian was thankful for back in the day. He's not really a villain, he's more like the parent that sometimes needs to be the bad guy to do the right thing in the long run

I don't know your background or experience as a fan, I'd like to say that upfront along with saying this is only my opinion. But what product has Mike been selling over the past 30 years or so? His attempts to be the torch-bearer some say he is have at various points alienated both his own bandmates and the more dedicated fans of the band because he often made the band look like a commercialized shill rather than the truly great band that sold all those records and were in the upper echelon of rock music.

At the risk of angering some people, and I truly don't care if I do, consider had Brian not gone on tour with his own band back in 1999 and basically blew Mike's version of a touring band playing Beach Boys music that he had at that time off the stage based mostly on their musical skill and respect for the music and the legacy (and those more dedicated fans who didn't want cheerleaders choreographed on stage and Mike's Be True To Your School type of old showbiz schtick), there would be no touring band in 2017. The fact that another Beach Boy could present such a crack band and live show that was as musically solid as anything that had been done in the recent past I think forced Mike to up his game and actually consider people were looking for a quality and respectful show if it's billed as The Beach Boys and not a Mike Love solo revue. I have to question if he feels any of that today. If the July 4th concert on TV was any indicator, he very well may not.

So is Mike selling The Beach Boys when he's presenting McGrath, Stamos, and himself wearing a Mike Love ballcap on national TV and calling that single "our" new single instead of presenting it accurately as a Mike Love solo release? How about when he promotes a Mike Love solo release in multiple interviews at the concert that day yet fails to mention a truly terrific archival release featuring the real Beach Boys as they were 50 years ago? Is he carrying the torch for the Beach Boys brand or the Mike Love brand?

And I'd like to see some people who became fans in the 60's when the records were hitting the charts recall what exactly got them into the band. And I wonder how many would cite first and foremost Mike's antics as a "frontman" at live shows. If anything won over the fans, it was the sound of the records they would hear on the radio and when they dropped the needle on the records at home.

There is no way to codify or define such a thing, obviously, but seriously how many fans got into the band more from something Mike did over the past 6 decades versus the music made by the actual band?

[Jay]

There wasn't ever a Beach Boys six decades ago.

[kreen]

I expect my rock stars to shoot off the mouth about stuff, scandalize the bourgeois bien pensants (like with that picture with President Trump) and not give a crap what people think. In that respect, Mike Love and Bruce Johnston fit the bill perfectly.

I've always felt that Mike's speech at the R n' R Hall of Fame, for instance, was one of the most rock n' roll things to ever take place at that event.

[guitarfool2002]

There wasn't ever a Beach Boys six decades ago.

2017
2007
1997
1987
1977
1967

Six decades. Not 60 years.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

I expect my rock stars to shoot off the mouth about stuff, scandalize the bourgeois bien pensants (like with that picture with President Trump)

 

Having a photo op with the symbol of the contemporary ownership class does not scandalize anyone or anything.