Iain Lee's Opinion Of This Forum: "I'd kill everybody on that board. Everybody."

[HeyJude]

So, I know all I need to know.  The Smiley Smile Message Board is a haven for Brianistas.  Anyone with an opinion which doesn't follow the Brianista agenda probably shouldn't post there. 

It's unfortunate that this generalization, incorrect in my opinion, has to made.

I've been posting on this board since almost Day One almost eleven years ago, and I've posted plenty of things critical of Brian. I've posted things supportive of Mike.

I've taken a pragmatic, realistic approach to Brian's shows and agreed with the observation that on occasion in past years his shows occasionally veered into "Weekend at Bernie's" territory.

I've explained how I felt Mike, out of all three of Brian, Mike, and Al, somehow managed to put the best solo track on the "Hallmark" CD.

Despite defending Al against tons of unfair attacks, I've called BS when appropriate as well, about how he doesn't manage to finish projects and never got traction trying to tour.

I gave a very middling review of Brian's "No Pier Pressure", have gone on record that the Gershwin album doesn't do much for me and "Lucky Old Sun" doesn't do a great deal more for me. I've mentioned how multiple cover albums from Brian isn't ideal.

I've explained many times how I agree with another observation made a few years back that Mike probably owes the survival of his touring reputation entirely to the talents of Scott Totten at this stage.

I don't think people are being attacked or discouraged from stating opinions.

Where do most of the disagreements occur? When Mike opens his friggin' mouth in interviews. That's the sticking point. The problem isn't Brian fans defending him too much (which does happen sometimes). The problem is the hands-off approach and/or benefit of the doubt afforded by some to Mike.

Simply put, some fans aren't willing to afford him that benefit anymore. He has burned through it. So yes, to defend Mike or ignore things he says is going to highlight a fundamental and core difference of the sort of ethos we take towards loving this band.

Fans haven't changed a great deal in the last few years. Mike's attitude and venom has, and that's simply going by public statements and events and not even getting into the behind-the-scenes stuff.

I think both the band and fandom has hit a bit of a fork in the road, and Mike has chosen the path to be, again to borrow a phrase used by someone in the past, remembered as a hun.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

I think he bullied Brian for far too long, I think he's two faced and a phiny.

I believe dolphin fanatics like Mike Love spell it "finny" but, personally, I always respected the fact that he was a finny.

 

[CenturyDeprived]

Keep in mind you're talking to someone  who LIKES Looking Back with Love and hates Imagination.  I don't think much of him as a person, I think he bullied Brian for far too long, I think he's two faced and a phiny. But I will give him his fair due artistically  when he deserves it.

Totally, Billy.

And all the people who are so defensive of Mike, saying that he never bullied Brian... what if Mike one day (unlikely of course) states that he's sincerely sorry and regretful for ever having done actions that came off as bullying (directed at Brian). Would those ultra-defensive people then finally say that it's good that Mike is making peace with past actions? Or would they double down and say "damnit Mike, you should never apologize for something you never did!", insisting that Mike was coerced to make a false statement, because it's 110% impossible to conceive of Mike Love bullying someone?

I just don't get the logic of people putting their heads in the sand about emotional bullying and this band. I asked Cam a question about if he himself has ever been emotionally bullied for years by a family member of his, and OF COURSE got zero response, and only snark, but I honestly want to know: have people (who absolve Mike completely from remotely having ever inflicted emotional bullying on Brian) ever THEMSELVES been on the receiving end of emotional bullying tactics by someone close (family or not) for many years? Where lots of little things add up over time?  

I just can't see someone who has endured deep pain from an emotional bully (I have) looking at the Mike/Brian relationship over the years (even from our outsider perspective)... and honestly thinking to themselves that this looks like something where nothing of the sort happened with Brian on the receiving end of bullying from Mike.

I think only someone who themselves is a bully, or has no empathy at all (basically the same thing) could not understand the concept, and not at all see how it could - at times - apply to Mike/Brian. It doesn't mean Mike is the big, bad, wolf, or that he has no good person qualities (he most certainly does). Certainly it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that Melinda must feel that Mike has bullied Brian at times. So someone like Cam, denying bullying has ever taken place, is in effect saying that Brian's wife has it ALL wrong and is full of sh*t, just because trustworthy Mike says so.

Remind me of how it's a characteristic of bullying people to admit to being bullying people? It does happen sometimes, with lots of deep personal growth and reflection... but just as often (if not more often), bullies deny it until their dying day.

People who defend bullies are often bullies themselves, and defending the indefensible (with childish, question-dodging tactics) is the main reason for the fracture in this band's online communities.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

I think he bullied Brian for far too long, I think he's two faced and a phiny.

I believe dolphin fanatics like Mike Love spell it "finny" but, personally, I always respected the fact that he was a finny.

 

Lol...I hate this phone.

Yeah I meant 'phony'

[HeyJude]

The problem isn't even so much the few people with intractable positions. Those are frustrating, and don't help. But here's part of the problem and where some of the disagreements occur:

Let's take a random issue such as, let's say, Mike calling Brian controlled and medicated.

A couple of people will stubbornly try to defend such comments as 100% fine and dandy. That's not the big problem, though.

It's the waffle-ish, fence-walking, sometimes well-intentioned hands-off attitude another still somewhat small segment of fans sometimes take. I'm not saying people aren't allowed to have any opinion, nor am I saying someone can't have a centrist position on something. But the *refusal* to just condemn a given statement and not qualify it with a bunch of other stuff is where we often get hung up.

My position is that nobody has to step up every time (or any time) and condemn something Mike does or says when it seems appropriate. But if you're not, don't lump all the people that do together as being too negative, or mean, or whatever other adjectives are floating around. If you think Mike's awesome and want to ignore other stuff, cool. But don't get on my jock for pointing out that Mike was a d**k in an interview. As I've said, you can sometimes call the criticism redundant. But the criticism of the criticism then becomes redundant too, and it all started with stuff Mike did or said.

[Debbie KL]

Basically, Billy, I hoped to bring to light some of the perceived problems with this board.

Debbie, GF, and to a lesser extent yourself decided you'd rather go on the offensive rather than have a productive dialog.  

So, I know all I need to know.  The Smiley Smile Message Board is a haven for Brianistas.  Anyone with an opinion which doesn't follow the Brianista agenda probably shouldn't post there.  

That's pretty much what I expected.  Thought I don't really understand how people who worship a man who has spent over half a century creating beautiful, life changing music can be so bitter, crass, and hate filled.  

As I've said many times on here.  I'm a fan of The Beach Boys.  I'm a fan of Brian Wilson, Carl Wilson, Dennis Wilson, Al Jardine, David Marks, Blondie Chaplin, Bruce Johnston, Ricky Fataar, and yes, Mike Love.  

I gladly pay to see Brian Wilson and his great band and Mike Love and his great band, and enjoy every note.  

I listen to everything from Surfin to No Pier Pressure, and everything in between, some more than others.  

But, for my own well being, I'm taking an extended leave from this board before a certain small portion make me start resenting the very music that I love enough to make me sign up for such a message board.  

I would really have enjoyed a clear, simple answer as to how kds has been insulted, etc. - particularly by me, from my perspective. But every question I asked regarding something more specific that I could understand about this was, apparently another insult? I can only assume that was the case, since I never received a direct answer.  I wonder how asking a question for clarification is being "on the offensive."  Wow - " bitter, crass, and hate filled." When did that happen?

I guess I'll never know since the guy is doing the usual little shuffle done by those thinly-veiled Kokodopes who post here, calling me a "Brianista"while claiming their love of the whole band.  When they don't get their way (whatever that would be - maybe winning an unwinnable debate?), they make dramatic exits and announce their move to the new Kokodope board.  It almost looks like a plan.  Whether it is or isn't, who cares?  They'll never answer a direct question, respond to a direct challenge when something isn't accurate in their statements, nor will they engage in any specifics about their perceived insults, etc.  I'm not certain how I'm supposed to improve my "immature" behavior when I don't know what horrible thing I've apparently done.

Oh, well.  I guess I'll just keep on "immaturely" asking questions and see what happens.  And there's a guy outside my door resembling Iain Lee waving a Virgin Atlantic airline ticket apparently purchased with my miles and in his other hand is his recently purchased American gun.  Gotta' go.  Now, are we back on topic after that last little drama?

[Don Malcolm]

Debbie, I guess this is not the best time for me to say how much I admire how you...shoot from the hip! 

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

I would really have enjoyed a clear, simple answer as to how kds has been insulted, etc. - particularly by me, from my perspective. But every question I asked regarding something more specific that I could understand about this was, apparently another insult? I can only assume that was the case, since I never received a direct answer.  I wonder how asking a question for clarification is being "aggressive."  

And now he's saying we're being too 'defensive', yet told me I was going on  the 'offensive'. One moment I'm being level-headed, next minute I'm 'immature'.

I'm done trying to make sense of it. I tried.

Now for the original topic, this guy Iain...

he's now playing the victim on the BS forum, talking about how he's heartbroken and everything. You know, the same guy who said he'd kill everybody here...the same guy who started a thread about Mike trying to *start* arguments and lied about why he was doing it? What we have here is a 43 year old man acting like a petulant child. This is someone who I initially thought had some integrity about him (going off on that bigoted bitch from a militant Christian group, for instance) but has proven to be exactly the same cocky phony-baloney radio type as all the rest. He's the REAL 'Mr. sh*t Stirrer'.

[Debbie KL]

Debbie, I guess this is not the best time for me to say how much I admire how you...shoot from the hip! 

Yep, I'm the gunslinger here - a 64-year-old woman who has never fired a gun. But I did look after BW during the late 70's/early 80's.  I think I earned my military fatigues, even if I can't fit into them anymore.  ;-)

[SMiLE Brian]

Glad to see this community being better than ever despite the drama from Mr. Lee!

[Debbie KL]

I would really have enjoyed a clear, simple answer as to how kds has been insulted, etc. - particularly by me, from my perspective. But every question I asked regarding something more specific that I could understand about this was, apparently another insult? I can only assume that was the case, since I never received a direct answer.  I wonder how asking a question for clarification is being "aggressive."  

And now he's saying we're being too 'defensive', yet told me I was going on  the 'offensive'. One moment I'm being level-headed, next minute I'm 'immature'.

I'm done trying to make sense of it. I tried.

Now for the original topic, this guy Iain...

he's now playing the victim on the BS forum, talking about how he's heartbroken and everything. You know, the same guy who said he'd kill everybody here...the same guy who started a thread about Mike trying to *start* arguments and lied about why he was doing it? What we have here is a 43 year old man acting like a petulant child. This is someone who I initially thought had some integrity about him (going off on that bigoted bitch from a militant Christian group, for instance) but has proven to be exactly the same cocky phony-baloney radio type as all the rest. He's the REAL 'Mr. sh*t Stirrer'.

I was just waiting for the verification of what obviously was coming.  Thanks for having the stomach to look on that site.  I'll never go there. 

Poor, poor baby Iain.  Bait people, then say you want to kill them, and when you're caught, you play the poor little victim.  There has to be a frikkin' playbook being handed out to these people.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

I would really have enjoyed a clear, simple answer as to how kds has been insulted, etc. - particularly by me, from my perspective. But every question I asked regarding something more specific that I could understand about this was, apparently another insult? I can only assume that was the case, since I never received a direct answer.  I wonder how asking a question for clarification is being "aggressive." 

And now he's saying we're being too 'defensive', yet told me I was going on  the 'offensive'. One moment I'm being level-headed, next minute I'm 'immature'.

I'm done trying to make sense of it. I tried.

Now for the original topic, this guy Iain...

he's now playing the victim on the BS forum, talking about how he's heartbroken and everything. You know, the same guy who said he'd kill everybody here...the same guy who started a thread about Mike trying to *start* arguments and lied about why he was doing it? What we have here is a 43 year old man acting like a petulant child. This is someone who I initially thought had some integrity about him (going off on that bigoted bitch from a militant Christian group, for instance) but has proven to be exactly the same cocky phony-baloney radio type as all the rest. He's the REAL 'Mr. sh*t Stirrer'.

I was just waiting for the verification of what obviously was coming.  Thanks for having the stomach to look on that site.  I'll never go there. 

Poor, poor baby Iain.  Bait people, then say you want to kill them, and when you're caught, you play the poor little victim.  There has to be a frikkin' playbook being handed out to these people.

Yeah. Oh well, just best to let them wallow in their own feces

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Debbie, I guess this is not the best time for me to say how much I admire how you...shoot from the hip! 

Yep, I'm the gunslinger here - a 64-year-old woman who has never fired a gun. But I did look after BW during the late 70's/early 80's.  I think I earned my military fatigues, even if I can't fit into them anymore.  ;-)

Hell yeah you earned it and then some.

[halblaineisgood]

...who is this dude and why is everybody talkin' about him?

[Debbie KL]

...who is this dude and why is everybody talkin' about him?

Oops, I see nearly your whole post has disappeared, so my post will look ridiculous, but here it is:

I'm obviously not one of the esteemed people you're looking for, since you've already acknowledged my presence in a form I didn't quite follow.  You're pleased, but then again you're not that I'm still around?  Fine with me, if I read it correctly.

Nevertheless, I'm wondering why this guy is trolling a BB MB and writing fluff pieces for Mike Love if he's so esteemed these days.

I think that's a legitimate thing to consider.  But I'm probably not esteemed enough.  You'll all have to let me know.

[The_Beach]

ahah that interview is too funny! What is his user name here?

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

It was Iain Lee, but he asked us to delete his account

[halblaineisgood]

.

You're raggin' on my post billy??   
If I am ruining the forum or whatever and have to be accountable I will remove the dot and post something inflammatory again. Just say the word.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Yeah, I'll never understand the need for some to tear others down to bring one up. Or the need to take potshots at others and then saying it's 'pathetic' when the potshots are returned.

Hypothetically

But enough about the BS forum...

we got Ricky Gervais's reject to discuss!

[Emily]

Honestly, I think the problems on this board have been resolved, except for the occasional attempt to continue arguing about what the problems of the board used to be.
I also don't think that Mike's Beard is somehow free of responsibility for his own language, nor that disagreeing with someone is equivalent to not allowing them to state their opinion.

Hear, hear, +1. And nice to have you back BTW Emily, I enjoyed your back and forth with Rocky. Boy was that a thread from a morbidly fascinating version of Hell.

Thanks! I've had a pretty hectic summer.
I agree that Iain Lee was very passive-aggressive from the start.

[Emily]

I've read pretty much every Beach Boys related interview since 2012 that I can get my minds on. 

Sure, I don't like a lot of what Mike has to say.  And he does tend to repeat himself.   To say it's an anti-Brian campaign seems a little silly to me. 

And we're hitting some common ground now, HJ.  When you said some of the people who rush to the defense of Brian can be "over the top."  That's true.  And the same Brian fans can be a little over the top on their criticisms of Mike, or anyone in his camp, to the point of trying to diminish his contributions, which is the same time of revisionist history that Mike sometimes spews in interviews. 

I have to say that at the point Mike tried to empathize with the point of view of Evan Landy last year, it very much reeked of an "enemy of my enemy is my friend" tact. Also, his David Beard interview/monologue ("hopefully there's no autotune") read very much as part of a campaign. I guess we can parse the definition of a "campaign", but basically what I mean is a continued effort to downplay/negate something rather than it just being random "stream of consciousness" ramblings.

Maybe Mike doesn't see it as "anti-Brian", but more "anti-the people around Brian", but it's the same thing, and the "people around Brian" stuff also is insulting to Brian.

As for having some context about past posts/archives relating to those who left this board for the other, here's one post from someone who used to post here and now posts on that other board:

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,23872.msg577773.html#msg577773

Does that read like someone escaping a bad board, or someone being a part of what is bad about a board?

I remember that well.  But I also believe the poster was pushed to the point where he thought it was necessary to hurl those insults.  A little tact would've been nice, though.  

Nice spin, KDS. Says all we need to know. Maybe...just maybe...not lying and not creating fake aliases and using IP maskers to hide behind an alias and evade a ban would have been the "tactful" way to act. After that, all else is bunk no matter how necessary hurling insults you think would be after the initial lie. But, that's past history. You know where to go to "like" as many sh*t-stirring posts as you can like in one sitting.

Unbelievable, huh? Where does this apologist draw the line?

Debbie, is this you being "helpful" again?  By insulting me?  I'm a Mike apologist now? 

No, I'm calling you a Mike's Beard/China Pig apologist, appropriate to your post.  How did I provoke that little creep into talking about Brian "dumping my saggy ass" to the point that you defended him? 

Please tell me how you didn't "insult" me in that?

Debbie.  Firstly, I don't agree with what he said, and I do think it was disrespectful.  I apologize if you took what I said about him being pushed to say that as an insult to you, as I didn't mean it that way.  

But, as I said before, your efforts to "help" fans understand Brian Wilson are often not very tactful, and can come across as insulting.  Like when one poster, observed that he'd seen Brian in concert three times, and each time, Brian was "worst than the last time."  You came back saying that was utter BS and that person didn't "get it."  Can you see how that can be off putting?  

How else was I supposed to take your defense of that poster?  He "hurled insults" because he was "pushed", even though he was posting after being banned under an essentially "illegal" screen name?  So I wasn't delicate enough with certain posters, and that's your equivalent?  You are clearly making the point about why you're here, and it certainly isn't about being "fair and balanced".

If you look at my post, I said that I thought that post from the ChinaPig was disrespectful.

I've already apologized, and I'm making an attempt to illustrate why some people have a problem with this forum.  And so far, you and Guitarfool are doing a wonderful job proving my point.   

Yes, you used the word "disrespectful," but you also said that he was "pushed" to "hurl insults."  You very clearly said that, too - right? I still am trying to understand that comment.  People who hurl insults, quite frankly, I'm happy to have on that "other forum."  I don't think most of us here care to have people posting who have bullied, harassed and made "joking" death threats against people.  Nor those who have lied, and/or made racist, misogynist comments.  If you want that kind of board, I have a pretty good idea where you can find it. 

So the point GF and I are making on your behalf is?  That we don't agree with you and say so?  Help me out here.

The point you and GF are making for me is that you refuse to acknowledge that there's a problem on this board.  And the attitudes of both of you are a big part of that problem.  You have both been disrespectful at various times towards me, and others on the board, whose opinions don't always jibe with your opinions. 

I've seen people who say that the constant complaining about Mike is tiresome called a fool, and a mod agree with it.  I've been posters (and this term is overused, but apt here) bullied for saying that they didn't care for Brian's last album.  I've seen posters' intelligence insulted because they enjoyed a Mike and Bruce concert. 

And when I tried to bring up some of these issues, I get insulted myself, or my point gets turned around. 

That's fine. 

Please explain the "problem" on this board - "debate" possibly - that isn't on other boards?

I can't quite make sense of your 2nd paragraph.  At some point you reference being "bullied."  That much I could make out.  How were you "bullied" that any one of us hasn't encountered here or elsewhere?  Good heavens.  I've been called a cheerleader, told I had "my claws out," been accused of having a "cat fight" with a woman who was advocating illegal downloads, harassed every time I posted for 10 days, told to move my "saggy ass" on, and on other boards, accused of being a fraud until a long-time friend posted in support of me, just as a few examples.

That's what we endure online, like it or not.

I'm not clear who insulted you or how - or what this has to do with some fool making stupid death threat against posters here. 

I'm not sure where you're going with this, other than to complain about this board, the mods and the posters here. 

If that's the case, we've heard your complaints.  Is that it?

That's a pretty disgusting collection of insults you've borne here. Sorry for that.

[Debbie KL]

It was Iain Lee, but he asked us to delete his account

 So.. he's gone.That explains it.
 I was looking just now for it, I couldn't find hide nor hair of it.

When did he register anyways?

He really should have jumped on the Mike Love-Lovetrain back in 2012. Those were the days... for sweet ,sweet love of mike love.

And pretty much the entire history of this place was the day or were the days or were the was oah uhhh.....ANYTIME except NOw would have been better to pander to fans on a pro-love platform.
 I gotta' assume all the forums that predate this one would've been a better place to come out of the love-closet.

He's not ready for reality. The initial Brian-worship that leads to Mike- apologetics-- has he gone thru this??
which  leads to acceptance.
acceptance of the whole group's  talents .
and then the humble realization of the initial appreciation of Brian-and validating that, and recognizing that your first instinct was the correct one???

(Recognizing brian as best -not as a superhuman deity-- but as god-given fluke of a talent who developed the skills, and was clearly the best on hisown merits, and not on the basis of the initial blind hero worship. ** therefore mike can still be good too and al (or "la: as I call him) and all those other bastards   )



The MYTH THE LEGEND!!!!!~

yeah, dude....we all know Mike is good. asshole.

I must say, as someone who was around when Brian was horribly misdiagnosed, getting the wrong meds, etc., and I still tried to help him get along anyway as a friend - I find it hilarious that there are people here who think I'm some wide-eyed person idolizing him (I'm not saying that about you, HBIG.  I doubt they'd have survived that period of my life, much less, that period of Brian's life. He is one tough cookie.

I know who Brian is - the wonders and the amazing challenges, and the regular guy who likes hamburgers, steak and pizzas, and who can be a real pain in the ass, although it's always pretty funny when he is.  

The BBs were his baby, then his albatross, and he decided he wanted them back 50 years later.  He got the value of their voices - always - and he loved his family.  So did most of the rest of us.

Melinda came along at the right time.  When he was ready for a new life.  Very cool.  

The fact that Mike Love still seems to want to be a jerk about all this appears to be a fact, Jack.  We'll see how this book goes.  The previews aren't promising.

[Emily]

My view, for what it's worth, is that there must be very few Beach Boys fans who are not 'Brianistas'. How could one be a serious BB fan with any knowledge without recognizing that his extraordinary talent is what makes Beach Boys music extraordinary?
Regarding this board, it seems to me that most (non-Sandbox) strife was centered around Mike Love, Mike Love interviews and Mike Love lawsuits. And I agree with Hey Jude/CD that a big problem was that there were a few fans that dug in against acknowledging that some of what Mike Love has said and done has been pretty egregious, and other fans thought that not acknowledging that was, itself, pretty egregious.
I also think there have been a few posters who intentionally obfuscate.
It seems that with the two boards, peace can reign, and it has for most of the summer. I've noticed a few people manage to converse at both boards without difficulty. Those are people who were mainly not involved in the ML disputes. But it seems there are a few who like to come back here just to keep arguing that old argument, and to blame this board for the old arguments or to blame one side (the ones who primarily reside at this board) for the old arguments. Certainly it takes at least two sides to have an argument, and some of the primary arguers are primarily at the other board.
For my part, I agree that much of what Mike Love has said and done has been pretty egregious. But I have no desire to argue about it.

[Debbie KL]

I've read pretty much every Beach Boys related interview since 2012 that I can get my minds on. 

Sure, I don't like a lot of what Mike has to say.  And he does tend to repeat himself.   To say it's an anti-Brian campaign seems a little silly to me. 

And we're hitting some common ground now, HJ.  When you said some of the people who rush to the defense of Brian can be "over the top."  That's true.  And the same Brian fans can be a little over the top on their criticisms of Mike, or anyone in his camp, to the point of trying to diminish his contributions, which is the same time of revisionist history that Mike sometimes spews in interviews. 

I have to say that at the point Mike tried to empathize with the point of view of Evan Landy last year, it very much reeked of an "enemy of my enemy is my friend" tact. Also, his David Beard interview/monologue ("hopefully there's no autotune") read very much as part of a campaign. I guess we can parse the definition of a "campaign", but basically what I mean is a continued effort to downplay/negate something rather than it just being random "stream of consciousness" ramblings.

Maybe Mike doesn't see it as "anti-Brian", but more "anti-the people around Brian", but it's the same thing, and the "people around Brian" stuff also is insulting to Brian.

As for having some context about past posts/archives relating to those who left this board for the other, here's one post from someone who used to post here and now posts on that other board:

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,23872.msg577773.html#msg577773

Does that read like someone escaping a bad board, or someone being a part of what is bad about a board?

I remember that well.  But I also believe the poster was pushed to the point where he thought it was necessary to hurl those insults.  A little tact would've been nice, though.  

Nice spin, KDS. Says all we need to know. Maybe...just maybe...not lying and not creating fake aliases and using IP maskers to hide behind an alias and evade a ban would have been the "tactful" way to act. After that, all else is bunk no matter how necessary hurling insults you think would be after the initial lie. But, that's past history. You know where to go to "like" as many sh*t-stirring posts as you can like in one sitting.

Unbelievable, huh? Where does this apologist draw the line?

Debbie, is this you being "helpful" again?  By insulting me?  I'm a Mike apologist now? 

No, I'm calling you a Mike's Beard/China Pig apologist, appropriate to your post.  How did I provoke that little creep into talking about Brian "dumping my saggy ass" to the point that you defended him? 

Please tell me how you didn't "insult" me in that?

Debbie.  Firstly, I don't agree with what he said, and I do think it was disrespectful.  I apologize if you took what I said about him being pushed to say that as an insult to you, as I didn't mean it that way.  

But, as I said before, your efforts to "help" fans understand Brian Wilson are often not very tactful, and can come across as insulting.  Like when one poster, observed that he'd seen Brian in concert three times, and each time, Brian was "worst than the last time."  You came back saying that was utter BS and that person didn't "get it."  Can you see how that can be off putting?  

How else was I supposed to take your defense of that poster?  He "hurled insults" because he was "pushed", even though he was posting after being banned under an essentially "illegal" screen name?  So I wasn't delicate enough with certain posters, and that's your equivalent?  You are clearly making the point about why you're here, and it certainly isn't about being "fair and balanced".

If you look at my post, I said that I thought that post from the ChinaPig was disrespectful.

I've already apologized, and I'm making an attempt to illustrate why some people have a problem with this forum.  And so far, you and Guitarfool are doing a wonderful job proving my point.   

Yes, you used the word "disrespectful," but you also said that he was "pushed" to "hurl insults."  You very clearly said that, too - right? I still am trying to understand that comment.  People who hurl insults, quite frankly, I'm happy to have on that "other forum."  I don't think most of us here care to have people posting who have bullied, harassed and made "joking" death threats against people.  Nor those who have lied, and/or made racist, misogynist comments.  If you want that kind of board, I have a pretty good idea where you can find it. 

So the point GF and I are making on your behalf is?  That we don't agree with you and say so?  Help me out here.

The point you and GF are making for me is that you refuse to acknowledge that there's a problem on this board.  And the attitudes of both of you are a big part of that problem.  You have both been disrespectful at various times towards me, and others on the board, whose opinions don't always jibe with your opinions. 

I've seen people who say that the constant complaining about Mike is tiresome called a fool, and a mod agree with it.  I've been posters (and this term is overused, but apt here) bullied for saying that they didn't care for Brian's last album.  I've seen posters' intelligence insulted because they enjoyed a Mike and Bruce concert. 

And when I tried to bring up some of these issues, I get insulted myself, or my point gets turned around. 

That's fine. 

Please explain the "problem" on this board - "debate" possibly - that isn't on other boards?

I can't quite make sense of your 2nd paragraph.  At some point you reference being "bullied."  That much I could make out.  How were you "bullied" that any one of us hasn't encountered here or elsewhere?  Good heavens.  I've been called a cheerleader, told I had "my claws out," been accused of having a "cat fight" with a woman who was advocating illegal downloads, harassed every time I posted for 10 days, told to move my "saggy ass" on, and on other boards, accused of being a fraud until a long-time friend posted in support of me, just as a few examples.

That's what we endure online, like it or not.

I'm not clear who insulted you or how - or what this has to do with some fool making stupid death threat against posters here. 

I'm not sure where you're going with this, other than to complain about this board, the mods and the posters here. 

If that's the case, we've heard your complaints.  Is that it?

That's a pretty disgusting collection of insults you've borne here. Sorry for that.

No big deal.  Just a typical day online.  It's so funny that the most irate posters here seem to throw a tantrum and go off to "the other board" when they don't win a debate.  There are political figures everywhere enduring far worse than I - and certainly far worse than these wimps - endured.

[Emily]

I've read pretty much every Beach Boys related interview since 2012 that I can get my minds on. 

Sure, I don't like a lot of what Mike has to say.  And he does tend to repeat himself.   To say it's an anti-Brian campaign seems a little silly to me. 

And we're hitting some common ground now, HJ.  When you said some of the people who rush to the defense of Brian can be "over the top."  That's true.  And the same Brian fans can be a little over the top on their criticisms of Mike, or anyone in his camp, to the point of trying to diminish his contributions, which is the same time of revisionist history that Mike sometimes spews in interviews. 

I have to say that at the point Mike tried to empathize with the point of view of Evan Landy last year, it very much reeked of an "enemy of my enemy is my friend" tact. Also, his David Beard interview/monologue ("hopefully there's no autotune") read very much as part of a campaign. I guess we can parse the definition of a "campaign", but basically what I mean is a continued effort to downplay/negate something rather than it just being random "stream of consciousness" ramblings.

Maybe Mike doesn't see it as "anti-Brian", but more "anti-the people around Brian", but it's the same thing, and the "people around Brian" stuff also is insulting to Brian.

As for having some context about past posts/archives relating to those who left this board for the other, here's one post from someone who used to post here and now posts on that other board:

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,23872.msg577773.html#msg577773

Does that read like someone escaping a bad board, or someone being a part of what is bad about a board?

I remember that well.  But I also believe the poster was pushed to the point where he thought it was necessary to hurl those insults.  A little tact would've been nice, though.  

Nice spin, KDS. Says all we need to know. Maybe...just maybe...not lying and not creating fake aliases and using IP maskers to hide behind an alias and evade a ban would have been the "tactful" way to act. After that, all else is bunk no matter how necessary hurling insults you think would be after the initial lie. But, that's past history. You know where to go to "like" as many sh*t-stirring posts as you can like in one sitting.

Unbelievable, huh? Where does this apologist draw the line?

Debbie, is this you being "helpful" again?  By insulting me?  I'm a Mike apologist now? 

No, I'm calling you a Mike's Beard/China Pig apologist, appropriate to your post.  How did I provoke that little creep into talking about Brian "dumping my saggy ass" to the point that you defended him? 

Please tell me how you didn't "insult" me in that?

Debbie.  Firstly, I don't agree with what he said, and I do think it was disrespectful.  I apologize if you took what I said about him being pushed to say that as an insult to you, as I didn't mean it that way.  

But, as I said before, your efforts to "help" fans understand Brian Wilson are often not very tactful, and can come across as insulting.  Like when one poster, observed that he'd seen Brian in concert three times, and each time, Brian was "worst than the last time."  You came back saying that was utter BS and that person didn't "get it."  Can you see how that can be off putting?  

How else was I supposed to take your defense of that poster?  He "hurled insults" because he was "pushed", even though he was posting after being banned under an essentially "illegal" screen name?  So I wasn't delicate enough with certain posters, and that's your equivalent?  You are clearly making the point about why you're here, and it certainly isn't about being "fair and balanced".

If you look at my post, I said that I thought that post from the ChinaPig was disrespectful.

I've already apologized, and I'm making an attempt to illustrate why some people have a problem with this forum.  And so far, you and Guitarfool are doing a wonderful job proving my point.   

Yes, you used the word "disrespectful," but you also said that he was "pushed" to "hurl insults."  You very clearly said that, too - right? I still am trying to understand that comment.  People who hurl insults, quite frankly, I'm happy to have on that "other forum."  I don't think most of us here care to have people posting who have bullied, harassed and made "joking" death threats against people.  Nor those who have lied, and/or made racist, misogynist comments.  If you want that kind of board, I have a pretty good idea where you can find it. 

So the point GF and I are making on your behalf is?  That we don't agree with you and say so?  Help me out here.

The point you and GF are making for me is that you refuse to acknowledge that there's a problem on this board.  And the attitudes of both of you are a big part of that problem.  You have both been disrespectful at various times towards me, and others on the board, whose opinions don't always jibe with your opinions. 

I've seen people who say that the constant complaining about Mike is tiresome called a fool, and a mod agree with it.  I've been posters (and this term is overused, but apt here) bullied for saying that they didn't care for Brian's last album.  I've seen posters' intelligence insulted because they enjoyed a Mike and Bruce concert. 

And when I tried to bring up some of these issues, I get insulted myself, or my point gets turned around. 

That's fine. 

Please explain the "problem" on this board - "debate" possibly - that isn't on other boards?

I can't quite make sense of your 2nd paragraph.  At some point you reference being "bullied."  That much I could make out.  How were you "bullied" that any one of us hasn't encountered here or elsewhere?  Good heavens.  I've been called a cheerleader, told I had "my claws out," been accused of having a "cat fight" with a woman who was advocating illegal downloads, harassed every time I posted for 10 days, told to move my "saggy ass" on, and on other boards, accused of being a fraud until a long-time friend posted in support of me, just as a few examples.

That's what we endure online, like it or not.

I'm not clear who insulted you or how - or what this has to do with some fool making stupid death threat against posters here. 

I'm not sure where you're going with this, other than to complain about this board, the mods and the posters here. 

If that's the case, we've heard your complaints.  Is that it?

That's a pretty disgusting collection of insults you've borne here. Sorry for that.

No big deal.  Just a typical day online.  It's so funny that the most irate posters here seem to throw a tantrum and go off to "the other board" when they don't win a debate.  There are political figures everywhere enduring far worse than I - and certainly far worse than these wimps - endured.

For sure.
I, for one, am extremely pleased to have someone with your experience, knowledge, and sense contributing to the board. Thank you.