Has Mike Expressed Remorse On Whatever Role He May Have Played in Smile's Demise

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

CenturyDeprived, I'm not trying to drag you back in or bait you. Actually, I like your posts. I like your speculating, your psychological approach/way of thinking, and your topics. They are perfect for a message board, especially a Beach Boys' message board. You make me think, and, whether you believe it or not, I agree with a lot of your theories.

However, there is a premise or two that I don't agree with you on. And, of course it is my opinion vs. yours, so it's not a matter of who is right or wrong. I just wanted to present an alternative way to view Brian Wilson during the 1961-1982 time period. I think it differs from yours, so, it's my turn to speculate and take the psychological approach.

You think that Brian's feelings were hurt by Mike and others who might not have agreed with him and might not have supported him, whether by their words or by their actions. Yes, Brian absolutely was a sensitive person, maybe moreso than the average person. But, I think you are failing to look at/view/imagine/realize who the real Brian Wilson was during that period of time. And, no, I wasn't there....pure speculation from what I've read.

Brian Wilson the songwriter and and producer and artist was in almost complete control of things. What he wanted he usually got. People kissed his ass. People just wanted to be in his company. If Brian wanted the guys to lie in an empty swimming pool and sing, they sang. If Brian wanted the guys to sit in a tent for a meeting, they sat. If Brian wanted the guys to make animal noises, they oinked. If Brian wanted the guys to release albums like Smiley Smile, Friends, and Love You, they went along with it, even though those albums damaged their career.

I think it's unrealistic to think that at none of those times did any of the guys, including his brothers, question Brian. We know his dad did and Brian shrugged that off; didn't Brian actually punch Murry one time during an argument over a song. Yes, the overwhelming amount of times the group was in awe of Brian, and they were more than happy to follow him like The Pied Piper. But, we're talking about dozens of songs and concerts and recording sessions, and dozens of instances when maybe - maybe - somebody had a dissenting opinion.

A lot of weight is put on Mike's objecting to a few - A FEW - of Van Dyke Parks' lyrics. And, Mike wasn't even criticizing Brian's music. Was that the first time Mike or anybody else in the group ever questioned a lyric? Maybe because the project was scrapped, whereas maybe the other objections were ignored, do we put so much weight on the Mike vs. SMiLE argument. Which also raises another question. People on this board (and other boards) are quick to downplay Mike's lyrics, Mike's opinions, and Mike's artistic decisions (or lack of). Yet, those same fans seem to think that Mike had so much influence on the demise of SMiLE, like all of a sudden, Brian was valuing Mike's opinion....on an artistic decision. Hey, this is Mike "Fun Fun Fun" Love who Brian Wilson is being influenced by...on SMiLE? Huh?

Finally, I just wanted to opine that, yes, we're dealing with human beings and human feelings here. But, also, THIS IS ROCK AND ROLL! No, I've never been in a rock & roll band, but, hey, guys talk, argue, debate, walk out, and come back - all the time. Like I said above, I highly doubt that Mike's objecting to the SMiLE lyrics OR MUSIC was the first time that he, or anybody else in the group, disagreed with Brian's vision. In The Beautiful Dreamer documentary, Brian puts a lot of weight on Mike's dislike of SMiLE. IMO IMO IMO IMO IMO IMO IMO I wonder on "the scale", how much Mike really influenced Brian - in 1967!!!!!

Sheriff - thanks for the kind words. My purpose of topics like these is to honestly gain a deeper understanding and share and/or debate ideas, not to mindlessly "bash" Mike or anyone else for that matter. But that being said, if I feel that a given person acted in a manner well deserving of criticism, I feel implored to bring that into the discussion of a given topic. If I think someone has a viewpoint that is worthy of questioning, I feel compelled to point out things that IMO don't make sense in their way of thinking, such as the thought that *if* Brian Wilson experienced inadvertent hurt feelings, that those feelings can somehow be considered "not valid". I cannot even type those words without shaking my head.

I've been in band situations myself, both in times of having bandmates be supportive, as well as quite the opposite (when bandmates were not supportive) - and at times, the lack of support could come with a significant degree of sarcasm, mean-spiritedness, etc. And I'll tell you - those feelings/thoughts coming from a bandmate can make a HUGE difference, and can *absolutely* be a huge hindrance on an artist and their ability to create.

I speak from experience.  Fortunately, I've never dealt with outright jealousy/resentment, nor a situation where big money/family/record label/"competition" were factors either. I've never been a member of the BBs!  But I still feel very confident in saying that it's very clear to me, as clear as it can be from an outsider's perspective, that someone with a personality type like Mike Love, interacting with someone with a personality type like Brian Wilson, in a tumultuous period with a lot of other outside factors/pressures, would (under the circumstances as we know them) be an absolute factor in helping to derail the project.

As far as your mentioning of the fact that the Boys surely questioned some of Brian's decisions pre-SMiLE... that to me is pretty irrelevant - SMiLE had its own set of unique circumstances, and Brian was doing something entirely new and extremely unusual/unprecedented, and in situations like that, I'm sure he developed his own self doubts which were a contributing factor (in a way that such feelings would have been either non-existent or relatively much smaller in the past). And at a time like SMiLE, when venturing into uncharted territory, that's unarguably when he would have needed support THE MOST. Does it make sense that bandmate(s), particularly those who aren't as artistically adventurous, would have more questions at a time like that? Well, yeah - it makes sense. Can it be deduced by us outsiders that those bandmate(s) actions, if those actions were informed by a sense of fear from losing a position of control (potentially for the long term), and were likely tinged (even in the smallest way) by a passive aggressive sarcasm, etc, that the actions could help make for a hostile atmosphere for the artist? And for that hostile atmosphere (even with people "going through motions") could help throw them off their game? Well, yeah - that makes perfect sense to me too.

The specific, exact amount of how much of a factor Mike was in the SMiLE saga is something that isn't quantifiable. It will surely be endlessly debated. Some people can try to minimize it to almost nothing (which I find absurd), or to actually completely nothing (even more absurd) and some people try to make it seem like the only factor (which is also absurd). I think the full truth lies somewhere in the middle. But it makes zero sense to me to think that his attitude was a 100% or 110% negligible factor in the eventual outcome of the project.  That idea will forever be a fringe ideology held by a tiny fraction of hardcore BB fans, who IMHO (no offense intended) are extremists regarding the subject, much in the way that the crazy Youtube comment Mike bashers are also extremists. It's grasping at straws.

I do sometimes wonder if the people who are soooo extreme regarding their views on the subject (believing that Mike has 110% zero culpability) feel that way because they love the band's music soooooo very much, extremely deeply in their hearts, that they cling to that ideology to, on a subconscious level, keep any negative emotions/thoughts about one of the artists out of the equation as to not taint the musical experience and not cloud the emotions they feel from the music in any tiny way. I really don't know.

CenturyDeprived, I'm kind of responding to your post and also adding to my above post. I was too lazy to edit it last night...

Unfortunately, there is precious little footage of Brian Wilson during the 1961-1973 period, when he was arguably at his peak. There are even less filmed interviews and recording sessions with him, so I think it's hard to really grasp just how "special" (for lack of a better word) he was, creatively and artistically speaking. Obviously none of us hung out with him during that time.

I believe that a lot of our opinions of Brian are based on the much greater quantity of media available post-1975. Is it accurate to say that the post-1975 Brian was/is a shell of the man and artist he was around the Today/SDASN/Pet Sounds/SMiLE era? And I don't ask that question to demean the man. Instead of asking that, let me ask this. As much as we have read about Brian Wilson in the 1960's, and as much of his work that we have to listen to, do we still not fully grasp the level he was on at one time?

CenturyDeprived, I don't think you give enough credit to the Brian Wilson of 1966-67 as an artist or as a person. I think you are basing a lot of your psychological theories and impressions of 1966-67 Brian Wilson on the Brian Wilson that you have observed in a totally different time and place, which is the Brian Wilson in his 40's, 50's, 60's, and now 70's. And I don't say that derogatorily or mean-spirited. I just think you are selling the Brian Wilson of 1966-67 short - as an artist and as a person who was driven, CONTROLLING, and operating on a plain that very few have occupied. Brian could come across as a humble guy, but I think he knew he was good; very, very good.

Yes, the Brian Wilson who was brought down by mental illness and drug abuse probably would've retreated and succummed to criticism from Mike and the band. And, maybe he did in the late 1970's and 1980's. The young Brian Wilson appeared, to me anyway, as a much different artist. I almost want to say an entirely different artist. And I say that because of the footage that I have seen, the interviews I have read, and the music that was recorded. THAT Brian Wilson had free reign; he recorded whatever he wanted. Smiley Smile, Wild Honey, Friends, "I Went To Sleep", "Sail Plane Song", "My Solution", "Mount Vernon And Fairway", "Child Of Winter", "Hey Little Tomboy", "Lazy Lizzie", and on and on. Only the record companies appeared to have any control, rejecting and reconfiguring albums. I just find it hard to believe that the band was crazy about a lot of Brian's 1967-74 music. But did it matter? At the beginning? No. Later? Yes, starting to matter. Much later? Yes, absolutely.

You gave an example of how YOU felt in your experiences in a rock and band. I don't think I have to point just how unique and different it must have been to be in a band, to be in a studio, to be dealing with Brian Fu--ing Wilson, at the peak of his powers. The man was on a roll. He was going to get his way. I don't think it was the people, or their lack of support, that brought him down. He had too much power, power that he wielded for a long, long time. A dissenting word or opinion from a band member? Nah, it might've made him think, but it didn't stop him. If Brian had an idea, there was a very good chance that idea was going to come to fruition...well, most of the time anyway. And, thank God that it did.

I appreciate your honest response (and of all posters who take the time to write heartfelt posts like these)... and while I agree with lots of what you're saying, here's where I see things differently:

I don't think, I *really* don't think it was just some minimal instance of "a dissenting word or opinion from a band member". I think it was a general hostile vibe, maybe less on the direct verbal communication front and more on the indirect communication front. You know how someone in a recent thread mentioned Mike Love shooting a cold stare at David Leaf when he saw him at some event after his book came out? I imagine that there were lots of little looks like that, maybe much less severe, but lots and lots of little bits of nonverbal communication that clearly indicated passive aggressive hostility were almost certainly commonplace at the time.

I honestly can't imagine that not being the case, at least on some level. Again, to use my personal experiences as something that I can relate it to: I had a band member who wound up having musical differences with me, and he'd sometimes verbalize them (with short bursts of hostility), and at other times by just a sour face. That doesn't mean that this bandmate was walking around with a perpetual pout, but it means that his "issues" with me nonetheless absolutely read on his face. And people who are VERY sensitive to emotional feedback from other people, like BW, will be much more aware of that happening around them. And it can wear them down.

Even a slightly sour face (happening again and again and again) by someone who is communicating that they are not on the same page as you and want a different direction for the band - or at the very least, a different "way of doing things" in terms of how the composing occurs and how the power structure is framed - can really get in the way of creativity happening and songs being finished. I absolutely have been there, in that position of experiencing somebody like that (a person without good communication skills, and with an aggressive and/or passive aggressive attitude, who may still "go through the motions"); in reality their actions can (however inadvertently), really, REALLY muck up the soup.

I agree that the Brian who composed in the 60s was a different man than he became years later. I've heard all the SOT boots, and the verbal banter/directions between takes, so I feel pretty well versed with knowing what a startlingly large amount of confidence and control he came across as having at the time. But due to many factors, this is when things began to come to a head with him. Mike Love's attitude (which certainly HAD to be more at odds with Brian's vision than ever before in the history of the band, save Hang On to Your Ego perhaps) was IMO most certainly *one* of those factors.

And again - some people can choose to say "Well, Mike Love can't be *blamed*, because he only did what any bandmate has the inherent right to do when communicating with another bandmate"... and while this point can be debated, what IMO can't be debated is that Mike's actions (when combined with other contributing factors) ultimately had an effect of some sort. We can try in our minds to absolve him of being responsible for doing anything "wrong", but we can't say that his actions simply had no effect whatsoever. That makes zero sense to me.

I don't think anyone's ever tried to make the claim that Mike was not a factor at all! But rather, it wasn't Mike's decision to scrap SMILE..... "We've" also simply tried to make the case that Mike was not THE factor.... Of course he was a factor! Everything in Brian's life at the time was a factor...... It's not fair to paint folks who simply try and make such claims as hardcore Mike cheerleaders, Mike defenders, etc etc..... It's just that people seem to take such a personal issue with any whiff of "Mike defending" that it easily gets out of hand.... I know from being in bands that criticisms and doubts from fellow band members can both dampen one's spirits OR motivate one to try harder, do better, etc etc ...... On a personal note, and I will probably get much crap for this: but there's no way I can't hate or dislike Mike for asking VDP what some lyrics meant... The last time we know this happened (to an extent) was with Hang Onto Your Ego, and thanks to Mike, in that case, the lyrics improved!

I disagree. Hang Onto Your Ego>I Know Theres An Answer

Oh, I completely respect that.... I used to prefer Hang Onto Your Ego too, but as I got a bit older, I Know There's An Answer seems to touch me a bit more, in a different way.... Plus it seems to fit the album, as a whole, better.....

As for Mike apologizing.... There are times in life where a direct and verbal apology isn't necessary..... Another reason the 50 year thing matters.... Maybe in 1968, an apology could have been in order, but by 1974, I'm sure enough had happened that we don't even know about, that it was a non-issue..... (more speculation)

Personally, I think HOYE has much more of an edge. Very in line with the times but not in a 'jumping on the bandwagon' way. It fits the longing theme of the album as Brian has dropped acid (what the "cool" kids were doing) and still didn't fit in (he wanted to keep his ego, not kill it.)

It's not a specific apology for SMiLE that Mike ought to offer Brian...just a general "sorry for not being as supportive as I should have) or something of that nature. There's a lot of resentment between the two...I doubt very much they've been as open and apologetic over the years as you seem to think. Obviously I don't know, but I'd guess in Mike Love's mind (or how he presents himself) he's never wrong, least of all regarding SMiLE and hell be damned if he's gonna apologize for that of all things.

Whatever. I hope they work it put before it's too late.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Latecomer to this thread (vacation) but here's my two cents, adjusted for inflation:

If Mike really wanted to sabotage Smile to the point of it not being released, all he had to do was say to Brian ""Over and over the crow cries uncover the cornfield" ? If you think I'm singing this sh*t, man you've got another think coming".

Fact is, he not only sang it, he sang it to the very best of his ability, as he did with the Water Chant, yodelling "Wonderful" and, oh, all the weird vocal stuff. As did the rest of the band. Don't even get me started on Smiley Smile.

Bottom line: irrespective of pressures, influences and the aspect of Uranus with Mickey Mouse's left armpit on Shrove Tuesday 1967, there's only one person who had the final sanction on the future of Smile, and who should take responsibility for the 44 year delay in releasing it. And his initials aren't MEL.

[Nicko1234]

Personally, I think HOYE has much more of an edge. Very in line with the times but not in a 'jumping on the bandwagon' way. It fits the longing theme of the album as Brian has dropped acid (what the "cool" kids were doing) and still didn't fit in (he wanted to keep his ego, not kill it.)

It's not a specific apology for SMiLE that Mike ought to offer Brian...just a general "sorry for not being as supportive as I should have) or something of that nature. There's a lot of resentment between the two...I doubt very much they've been as open and apologetic over the years as you seem to think. Obviously I don't know, but I'd guess in Mike Love's mind (or how he presents himself) he's never wrong, least of all regarding SMiLE and hell be damned if he's gonna apologize for that of all things.

Whatever. I hope they work it put before it's too late.

I`m not sure Mike sees himself as never wrong. In that BBC doc from a decade ago he very openly said words to the effect of, `Being related has enabled us to be far crueller to each other than we could have been otherwise`. So he can clearly see he has made some mistakes (albeit along with the other members).

None of us know whether Mike has ever apologized to Brian in private so it is a moot point. As CenturyDeprived has said though, disagreements while making music are absolutely commonplace. And there are other things in the history of the band that could be seen as much more worthy of an apology such as Mike plotting to kick Al out in 1997 for example...

[The Shift]

Latecomer to this thread (vacation) but here's my two cents, adjusted for inflation:

If Mike really wanted to sabotage Smile to the point of it not being released, all he had to do was say to Brian ""Over and over the crow cries uncover the cornfield" ? If you think I'm singing this sh*t, man you've got another think coming".

Fact is, he not only sang it, he sang it to the very best of his ability, as he did with the Water Chant, yodelling "Wonderful" and, oh, all the weird vocal stuff. As did the rest of the band. Don't even get me started on Smiley Smile.

Bottom line: irrespective of pressures, influences and the aspect of Uranus with Mickey Mouse's left armpit on Shrove Tuesday 1967, there's only one person who had the final sanction on the future of Smile, and who should take responsibility for the 44 year delay in releasing it. And his initials aren't MEL.

This.

Every time I see the title of this thread I feel as though some of the discussions here and the revelations this board has brought about have meant nothing.

Mike has made concessions in recent years (interviews, documentaries etc) and has tended to qualify/justify them by stressing his own motivations, his own take on all this, and to me it's seemed quite valid.

[Cabinessenceking]

Latecomer to this thread (vacation) but here's my two cents, adjusted for inflation:

If Mike really wanted to sabotage Smile to the point of it not being released, all he had to do was say to Brian ""Over and over the crow cries uncover the cornfield" ? If you think I'm singing this sh*t, man you've got another think coming".

Fact is, he not only sang it, he sang it to the very best of his ability, as he did with the Water Chant, yodelling "Wonderful" and, oh, all the weird vocal stuff. As did the rest of the band. Don't even get me started on Smiley Smile.

Bottom line: irrespective of pressures, influences and the aspect of Uranus with Mickey Mouse's left armpit on Shrove Tuesday 1967, there's only one person who had the final sanction on the future of Smile, and who should take responsibility for the 44 year delay in releasing it. And his initials aren't MEL.

I always knew Mel was involved in this!

[Cam Mott]

If we are looking for a problem with resistance to SMiLE we should be looking at VDP in my opinion. If there was a problem that kept SMiLE from happening it was between Brian and VDP and not the band. The romanticize presumption that they were on the same page doesn't wash with what the Posse reported.

Did I ever mention that before?

[Bicyclerider]

CenturyDeprived, I'm not trying to drag you back in or bait you. Actually, I like your posts. I like your speculating, your psychological approach/way of thinking, and your topics. They are perfect for a message board, especially a Beach Boys' message board. You make me think, and, whether you believe it or not, I agree with a lot of your theories.

However, there is a premise or two that I don't agree with you on. And, of course it is my opinion vs. yours, so it's not a matter of who is right or wrong. I just wanted to present an alternative way to view Brian Wilson during the 1961-1982 time period. I think it differs from yours, so, it's my turn to speculate and take the psychological approach.

You think that Brian's feelings were hurt by Mike and others who might not have agreed with him and might not have supported him, whether by their words or by their actions. Yes, Brian absolutely was a sensitive person, maybe moreso than the average person. But, I think you are failing to look at/view/imagine/realize who the real Brian Wilson was during that period of time. And, no, I wasn't there....pure speculation from what I've read.

Brian Wilson the songwriter and and producer and artist was in almost complete control of things. What he wanted he usually got. People kissed his ass. People just wanted to be in his company. If Brian wanted the guys to lie in an empty swimming pool and sing, they sang. If Brian wanted the guys to sit in a tent for a meeting, they sat. If Brian wanted the guys to make animal noises, they oinked. If Brian wanted the guys to release albums like Smiley Smile, Friends, and Love You, they went along with it, even though those albums damaged their career.

I think it's unrealistic to think that at none of those times did any of the guys, including his brothers, question Brian. We know his dad did and Brian shrugged that off; didn't Brian actually punch Murry one time during an argument over a song. Yes, the overwhelming amount of times the group was in awe of Brian, and they were more than happy to follow him like The Pied Piper. But, we're talking about dozens of songs and concerts and recording sessions, and dozens of instances when maybe - maybe - somebody had a dissenting opinion.

A lot of weight is put on Mike's objecting to a few - A FEW - of Van Dyke Parks' lyrics. And, Mike wasn't even criticizing Brian's music. Was that the first time Mike or anybody else in the group ever questioned a lyric? Maybe because the project was scrapped, whereas maybe the other objections were ignored, do we put so much weight on the Mike vs. SMiLE argument. Which also raises another question. People on this board (and other boards) are quick to downplay Mike's lyrics, Mike's opinions, and Mike's artistic decisions (or lack of). Yet, those same fans seem to think that Mike had so much influence on the demise of SMiLE, like all of a sudden, Brian was valuing Mike's opinion....on an artistic decision. Hey, this is Mike "Fun Fun Fun" Love who Brian Wilson is being influenced by...on SMiLE? Huh?

Finally, I just wanted to opine that, yes, we're dealing with human beings and human feelings here. But, also, THIS IS ROCK AND ROLL! No, I've never been in a rock & roll band, but, hey, guys talk, argue, debate, walk out, and come back - all the time. Like I said above, I highly doubt that Mike's objecting to the SMiLE lyrics OR MUSIC was the first time that he, or anybody else in the group, disagreed with Brian's vision. In The Beautiful Dreamer documentary, Brian puts a lot of weight on Mike's dislike of SMiLE. IMO IMO IMO IMO IMO IMO IMO I wonder on "the scale", how much Mike really influenced Brian - in 1967!!!!!

I wonder where we get the idea that Brian was even interested in sticking up for the lyrics or VDP. It is not part of the story that Brian defended the lyrics or that Brian did anything to defend them or VDP. In fact the testimony shows Brian himself was voicing displeasure with the lyrics directly to VDP on his own.

Over CE for instance, why call VDP at all if he was interested in defending either VDP or the lyrics? He just had to say we are doing this and the Boys did stuff, regardless of what they thought or how it made them feel. It is on tape as evidence.

Vosse, Siegel, and Anderle all say that Brian and VDP's sympatico between them ran out. Anderle specifically says there was open disagreement between the two over the lyrics, apparently VDP was having to defend his lyrics to Brian. Later Brian explained the lyrics were too arty to him. If Mike's question came at or around the end of March as VDP's comments about the event seem to say, it especially makes it much different regarding Brian. Are we supposed to believe Brian was intending to defend to Mike that which he already was criticzing and VDP had already had to defend to Brian to the point Brian and VDP couldn't work together anymore as they had? I think there is a lot wrong with what we have accepted as the story.

It happened in December, not March.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

If we are looking for a problem with resistance to SMiLE we should be looking at VDP in my opinion. If there was a problem that kept SMiLE from happening it was between Brian and VDP and not the band. The romanticize presumption that they were on the same page doesn't wash with what the Posse reported.

Did I ever mention that before?

This is a valid point too. As you've said, Brian never defended VDP or his stuff to Mike (that we know of) so that would have certainly contributed to VDP's thinking of "hey yknow what...what am I even doing here?"

I think after all the progress in '66, something happened in December. That's around when Van quit, when SMiLE took a back seat to the single, when Brian began to grow indecisive and cannibalised the album...deadlines were missed, time running out, VDP comes back sees it's going nowhere and leaves for good.

The key to understanding SMiLE's death is determining what exactly happened in 12/66 to shift focus so completely and so dramatically. Had the four months spent endlessly reworking HV/VT been spent recording vocals and filling in the gaps SMiLE still could've come out ahead of Pepper.

[Cam Mott]

Lou, refresh my memory where is that December date nailed down by a participant?

[Bicyclerider]

If we are looking for a problem with resistance to SMiLE we should be looking at VDP in my opinion. If there was a problem that kept SMiLE from happening it was between Brian and VDP and not the band. The romanticize presumption that they were on the same page doesn't wash with what the Posse reported.

Did I ever mention that before?

Many many many times.  While there were some personal issues between Van Dyke and Brian - Van Dyke didn't like being dominated by Brian at his beck and call for every whim of his, as demonstrated in the "party tapes" - and Brian had reservations about the lyrics separate from Mike's questioning of them -  in no way was Van Dyke resistant to the SMile collaboration or the Smile project.  That's a gross misreading of Vosse Posse comments.  He has repeatedly gone on record of how humiliating it was and how his feelings were hurt when it never came out, he considered it a personal failure.  Which is one reason he came back to help Brian with BWPS.

[Cam Mott]

If we are looking for a problem with resistance to SMiLE we should be looking at VDP in my opinion. If there was a problem that kept SMiLE from happening it was between Brian and VDP and not the band. The romanticize presumption that they were on the same page doesn't wash with what the Posse reported.

Did I ever mention that before?

This is a valid point too. As you've said, Brian never defended VDP or his stuff to Mike (that we know of) so that would have certainly contributed to VDP's thinking of "hey yknow what...what am I even doing here?"

I think after all the progress in '66, something happened in December. That's around when Van quit, when SMiLE took a back seat to the single, when Brian began to grow indecisive and cannibalised the album...deadlines were missed, time running out, VDP comes back sees it's going nowhere and leaves for good.

The key to understanding SMiLE's death is determining what exactly happened in 12/66 to shift focus so completely and so dramatically. Had the four months spent endlessly reworking HV/VT been spent recording vocals and filling in the gaps SMiLE still could've come out ahead of Pepper.

Siegel said VDP was leaving because he tired of Brian's dominance, something like that. Vosse says they artistically passed each other were no longer on the same page or something like that. Anderle says they couldn't work together and were fighting with Brian thinking the lyrics were to sophisticated and VDP thinking the music was not sophisticated enough.

[Bicyclerider]

Lou, refresh my memory where is that December date nailed down by a participant?

While no date (March included) has been nailed down by a participant, Van Dyke says he left shortly after the Fire session which was late November.  About a week later was the Cabinessence vocal session that Mike sang the lyrics to and presumably questioned, prompting Van Dyke's non defense and his exit.

Why would Mike question the lyrics and demand to know what they mean three months later, when Brian is working on Heroes exclusively?  And he sang them three months before?  It doesn't make sense.  While Mike was singing "doot doot doot, Heroes and Villains" he confronted Brian with "Oh and by the way I need to know what those over the cornfield lyrics mean, right now - get Van Dyke here?"  

Van Dyke left for about a month, but returned as a session musician in January to help Brian finish the Heroes single.  Van Dyke had a vested interest in at least getting that out, a Beach Boys followup to Good Vibrations that would be a huge windfall financially and creative reputation wise for Van Dyke.  He left again after the final Heroes session March 1/2 to pursue his own record project.  This is around the time of the lawsuit so that is part of the confusion about the date of Van Dyke leaving.  Essentially he left twice, but the songwriting collaboration with Brian really finished in November/early December, although some sections of Heroes may have been reworked with Van (it's unclear when the "sunny down snuff" section was done but an eyewitness has said that it was attempted in December but met with resistance from a certain deep voiced balding member of the Beach Boys who shall go nameless).

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

If we are looking for a problem with resistance to SMiLE we should be looking at VDP in my opinion. If there was a problem that kept SMiLE from happening it was between Brian and VDP and not the band. The romanticize presumption that they were on the same page doesn't wash with what the Posse reported.

Did I ever mention that before?

Many many many times.  While there were some personal issues between Van Dyke and Brian - Van Dyke didn't like being dominated by Brian at his beck and call for every whim of his, as demonstrated in the "party tapes" - and Brian had reservations about the lyrics separate from Mike's questioning of them -  in no way was Van Dyke resistant to the SMile collaboration or the Smile project.  That's a gross misreading of Vosse Posse comments.  He has repeatedly gone on record of how humiliating it was and how his feelings were hurt when it never came out, he considered it a personal failure.  Which is one reason he came back to help Brian with BWPS.

What are these "SMiLE party" tapes I keep hearing reference to? The Psychedelic Sounds bootleg?

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Lou, refresh my memory where is that December date nailed down by a participant?

While no date (March included) has been nailed down by a participant, Van Dyke says he left shortly after the Fire session which was late November.  About a week later was the Cabinessence vocal session that Mike sang the lyrics to and presumably questioned, prompting Van Dyke's non defense and his exit.

Why would Mike question the lyrics and demand to know what they mean three months later, when Brian is working on Heroes exclusively?  And he sang them three months before?  It doesn't make sense.  While Mike was singing "doot doot doot, Heroes and Villains" he confronted Brian with "Oh and by the way I need to know what those over the cornfield lyrics mean, right now - get Van Dyke here?"  

Van Dyke left for about a month, but returned as a session musician in January to help Brian finish the Heroes single.  Van Dyke had a vested interest in at least getting that out, a Beach Boys followup to Good Vibrations that would be a huge windfall financially and creative reputation wise for Van Dyke.  He left again after the final Heroes session March 1/2 to pursue his own record project.  This is around the time of the lawsuit so that is part of the confusion about the date of Van Dyke leaving.  Essentially he left twice, but the songwriting collaboration with Brian really finished in November/early December, although some sections of Heroes may have been reworked with Van (it's unclear when the "sunny down snuff" section was done but an eyewitness has said that it was attempted in December but met with resistance from a certain deep voiced balding member of the Beach Boys who shall go nameless).

The last sentence there is very revealing. Yes, Mike did NOT kill, sabotage or axe SMiLE. But swinging too far the other way and acting like he only ever innocently questioned a few lyrics is wrong too. I think it was a general air of disapproval coming from him, as well as the occasional obnoxious remark or aggressive questioning of certain lyrics.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Lou, refresh my memory where is that December date nailed down by a participant?

While no date (March included) has been nailed down by a participant, Van Dyke says he left shortly after the Fire session which was late November.  About a week later was the Cabinessence vocal session that Mike sang the lyrics to and presumably questioned, prompting Van Dyke's non defense and his exit.

Why would Mike question the lyrics and demand to know what they mean three months later, when Brian is working on Heroes exclusively?  And he sang them three months before?  It doesn't make sense.  While Mike was singing "doot doot doot, Heroes and Villains" he confronted Brian with "Oh and by the way I need to know what those over the cornfield lyrics mean, right now - get Van Dyke here?"  

Van Dyke left for about a month, but returned as a session musician in January to help Brian finish the Heroes single.  Van Dyke had a vested interest in at least getting that out, a Beach Boys followup to Good Vibrations that would be a huge windfall financially and creative reputation wise for Van Dyke.  He left again after the final Heroes session March 1/2 to pursue his own record project.  This is around the time of the lawsuit so that is part of the confusion about the date of Van Dyke leaving.  Essentially he left twice, but the songwriting collaboration with Brian really finished in November/early December, although some sections of Heroes may have been reworked with Van (it's unclear when the "sunny down snuff" section was done but an eyewitness has said that it was attempted in December but met with resistance from a certain deep voiced balding member of the Beach Boys who shall go nameless).

The last sentence there is very revealing. Yes, Mike did NOT kill, sabotage or axe SMiLE. But swinging too far the other way and acting like he only ever innocently questioned a few lyrics is wrong too. I think it was a general air of disapproval coming from him, as well as the occasional obnoxious remark or aggressive questioning of certain lyrics.

I think it's pretty much established that disapproval was coming at Brian from pretty much every direction except from below. Murry hated it, not all the band were thrilled (in addition to Mike) and Capitol were screaming for the product they'd not only been promised but had printed a shitload of packaging for. VDP was having second thoughts and even the Vosse Posse were starting to go "Ummmmmmmmmmmm...".

Can't recall who, but as one inside observer noted later, "the moment was there... and then it passed".

[Bicyclerider]

If we are looking for a problem with resistance to SMiLE we should be looking at VDP in my opinion. If there was a problem that kept SMiLE from happening it was between Brian and VDP and not the band. The romanticize presumption that they were on the same page doesn't wash with what the Posse reported.

Did I ever mention that before?

Many many many times.  While there were some personal issues between Van Dyke and Brian - Van Dyke didn't like being dominated by Brian at his beck and call for every whim of his, as demonstrated in the "party tapes" - and Brian had reservations about the lyrics separate from Mike's questioning of them -  in no way was Van Dyke resistant to the SMile collaboration or the Smile project.  That's a gross misreading of Vosse Posse comments.  He has repeatedly gone on record of how humiliating it was and how his feelings were hurt when it never came out, he considered it a personal failure.  Which is one reason he came back to help Brian with BWPS.

What are these "SMiLE party" tapes I keep hearing reference to? The Psychedelic Sounds bootleg?

Yes, some of the party tapes are on the Psychedelic Sounds bootleg, as well as the Vigotone 2 CD Smile release.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

If we are looking for a problem with resistance to SMiLE we should be looking at VDP in my opinion. If there was a problem that kept SMiLE from happening it was between Brian and VDP and not the band. The romanticize presumption that they were on the same page doesn't wash with what the Posse reported.

Did I ever mention that before?

Many many many times.  While there were some personal issues between Van Dyke and Brian - Van Dyke didn't like being dominated by Brian at his beck and call for every whim of his, as demonstrated in the "party tapes" - and Brian had reservations about the lyrics separate from Mike's questioning of them -  in no way was Van Dyke resistant to the SMile collaboration or the Smile project.  That's a gross misreading of Vosse Posse comments.  He has repeatedly gone on record of how humiliating it was and how his feelings were hurt when it never came out, he considered it a personal failure.  Which is one reason he came back to help Brian with BWPS.

What are these "SMiLE party" tapes I keep hearing reference to? The Psychedelic Sounds bootleg?

Yes, some of the party tapes are on the Psychedelic Sounds bootleg, as well as the Vigotone 2 CD Smile release.

Thanks for clearing that up. So when you say these tapes are evidence of resentment, does that mean there's any arguments/disagreement caught on tape? I've  got Psychedelic Sounds but not Vigotone. I can see how Van would get annoyed by these sessions too. I think of them like the Jasper Dailey songs: Brian goofing off either to relieve stress as the smile sessions got more complex or as a distraction to put off settling on a final mix. Probably justifying it the whole time saying 'the best bits will be on the album." To VDP, this is a clear sign Brian has lost focus

[CenturyDeprived]

Lou, refresh my memory where is that December date nailed down by a participant?

While no date (March included) has been nailed down by a participant, Van Dyke says he left shortly after the Fire session which was late November.  About a week later was the Cabinessence vocal session that Mike sang the lyrics to and presumably questioned, prompting Van Dyke's non defense and his exit.

Why would Mike question the lyrics and demand to know what they mean three months later, when Brian is working on Heroes exclusively?  And he sang them three months before?  It doesn't make sense.  While Mike was singing "doot doot doot, Heroes and Villains" he confronted Brian with "Oh and by the way I need to know what those over the cornfield lyrics mean, right now - get Van Dyke here?"  

Van Dyke left for about a month, but returned as a session musician in January to help Brian finish the Heroes single.  Van Dyke had a vested interest in at least getting that out, a Beach Boys followup to Good Vibrations that would be a huge windfall financially and creative reputation wise for Van Dyke.  He left again after the final Heroes session March 1/2 to pursue his own record project.  This is around the time of the lawsuit so that is part of the confusion about the date of Van Dyke leaving.  Essentially he left twice, but the songwriting collaboration with Brian really finished in November/early December, although some sections of Heroes may have been reworked with Van (it's unclear when the "sunny down snuff" section was done but an eyewitness has said that it was attempted in December but met with resistance from a certain deep voiced balding member of the Beach Boys who shall go nameless).

The last sentence there is very revealing. Yes, Mike did NOT kill, sabotage or axe SMiLE. But swinging too far the other way and acting like he only ever innocently questioned a few lyrics is wrong too. I think it was a general air of disapproval coming from him, as well as the occasional obnoxious remark or aggressive questioning of certain lyrics.

I think it's pretty much established that disapproval was coming at Brian from pretty much every direction except from below. Murry hated it, not all the band were thrilled (in addition to Mike) and Capitol were screaming for the product they'd not only been promised but had printed a shitload of packaging for. VDP was having second thoughts and even the Vosse Posse were starting to go "Ummmmmmmmmmmm...".

Can't recall who, but as one inside observer noted later, "the moment was there... and then it passed".

I'd agree that Brian was absolutely dealing with pressure and some element of disapproval from various sources (not just Mike). The key question I ask myself though, is: can one particular person's personality have a deeper effect than the personalities of other people?

Can a given person's specific brand of body language/sour attitude/sarcasm/passive aggressive swipes, etc. worm its way into the heart of someone else in a manner that can reasonably be considered far more damaging, or at least in a way that effects someone else in a *particular* way, like nobody else can? Yes, I personally think that is a very reasonable possibility.

I've known certain people who just get under my skin in a *very* specific way, as only THEY can.

That's why, IMHO, it seems most plausible to me that Mike's specific attitude and specific way of communicating (that was unique to him, just as everyone else's communication style is unique to them) could very well have had a most particular effect on Brian. It doesn't mean that other people/circumstances weren't factors too - but it means that, in my estimation, if Brian felt a specific kind of sinking feeling from Mike's brand of communication, that would mean that Mike most likely had a bigger effect on demoralizing Brian's confidence in the project when compared to the other band members, if we are going to be "weighing" circumstances and people surrounding the project. There is "blame" to be spread around, or at least "reasons" and "contributing factors"... and yes - ultimately, Brian is the person who made the ultimate choice to scrap it. That's not something I'll ever quibble about.

[drbeachboy]

Lou, refresh my memory where is that December date nailed down by a participant?

While no date (March included) has been nailed down by a participant, Van Dyke says he left shortly after the Fire session which was late November.  About a week later was the Cabinessence vocal session that Mike sang the lyrics to and presumably questioned, prompting Van Dyke's non defense and his exit.

Why would Mike question the lyrics and demand to know what they mean three months later, when Brian is working on Heroes exclusively?  And he sang them three months before?  It doesn't make sense.  While Mike was singing "doot doot doot, Heroes and Villains" he confronted Brian with "Oh and by the way I need to know what those over the cornfield lyrics mean, right now - get Van Dyke here?" 

Van Dyke left for about a month, but returned as a session musician in January to help Brian finish the Heroes single.  Van Dyke had a vested interest in at least getting that out, a Beach Boys followup to Good Vibrations that would be a huge windfall financially and creative reputation wise for Van Dyke.  He left again after the final Heroes session March 1/2 to pursue his own record project.  This is around the time of the lawsuit so that is part of the confusion about the date of Van Dyke leaving.  Essentially he left twice, but the songwriting collaboration with Brian really finished in November/early December, although some sections of Heroes may have been reworked with Van (it's unclear when the "sunny down snuff" section was done but an eyewitness has said that it was attempted in December but met with resistance from a certain deep voiced balding member of the Beach Boys who shall go nameless).

The last sentence there is very revealing. Yes, Mike did NOT kill, sabotage or axe SMiLE. But swinging too far the other way and acting like he only ever innocently questioned a few lyrics is wrong too. I think it was a general air of disapproval coming from him, as well as the occasional obnoxious remark or aggressive questioning of certain lyrics.

I think it's pretty much established that disapproval was coming at Brian from pretty much every direction except from below. Murry hated it, not all the band were thrilled (in addition to Mike) and Capitol were screaming for the product they'd not only been promised but had printed a shitload of packaging for. VDP was having second thoughts and even the Vosse Posse were starting to go "Ummmmmmmmmmmm...".

Can't recall who, but as one inside observer noted later, "the moment was there... and then it passed".

I'd agree that Brian was absolutely dealing with pressure and some element of disapproval from various sources (not just Mike). The key question I ask myself though, is: can one particular person's personality have a deeper effect than the personalities of other people?

Can a given person's specific brand of body language/sour attitude/sarcasm/passive aggressive swipes, etc. worm its way into the heart of someone else in a manner that can reasonably be considered far more damaging, or at least in a way that effects someone else in a *particular* way, like nobody else can? Yes, I personally think that is a very reasonable possibility.

I've known certain people who just get under my skin in a *very* specific way, as only THEY can.

That's why, IMHO, it seems most plausible to me that Mike's specific attitude and specific way of communicating (that was unique to him, just as everyone else's communication style is unique to them) could very well have had a most particular effect on Brian. It doesn't mean that other people/circumstances weren't factors too - but it means that, in my estimation, if Brian felt a specific kind of sinking feeling from Mike's brand of communication, that would mean that Mike most likely had a bigger effect on demoralizing Brian's confidence in the project when compared to the other band members, if we are going to be "weighing" circumstances and people surrounding the project. There is "blame" to be spread around, or at least "reasons", and yes - ultimately, Brian is the person who made the ultimate choice to scrap it. That's not something I'll ever quibble about.

I have to hand it to you, you are doing your damnedest to make Mike the fall guy if even in the most indirect fashion. I am sure that Mike's persona did not make that drastic a change from pre-Smile to Smile. After reading what it took Mark Linett to assemble Smile, I can fully comprehend why Brian was overwhelmed trying to finish it up. Until something more definitive comes to light, this to me is more the reason that Smile was ultimately shelved.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Lou, refresh my memory where is that December date nailed down by a participant?

While no date (March included) has been nailed down by a participant, Van Dyke says he left shortly after the Fire session which was late November.  About a week later was the Cabinessence vocal session that Mike sang the lyrics to and presumably questioned, prompting Van Dyke's non defense and his exit.

Why would Mike question the lyrics and demand to know what they mean three months later, when Brian is working on Heroes exclusively?  And he sang them three months before?  It doesn't make sense.  While Mike was singing "doot doot doot, Heroes and Villains" he confronted Brian with "Oh and by the way I need to know what those over the cornfield lyrics mean, right now - get Van Dyke here?"  

Van Dyke left for about a month, but returned as a session musician in January to help Brian finish the Heroes single.  Van Dyke had a vested interest in at least getting that out, a Beach Boys followup to Good Vibrations that would be a huge windfall financially and creative reputation wise for Van Dyke.  He left again after the final Heroes session March 1/2 to pursue his own record project.  This is around the time of the lawsuit so that is part of the confusion about the date of Van Dyke leaving.  Essentially he left twice, but the songwriting collaboration with Brian really finished in November/early December, although some sections of Heroes may have been reworked with Van (it's unclear when the "sunny down snuff" section was done but an eyewitness has said that it was attempted in December but met with resistance from a certain deep voiced balding member of the Beach Boys who shall go nameless).

The last sentence there is very revealing. Yes, Mike did NOT kill, sabotage or axe SMiLE. But swinging too far the other way and acting like he only ever innocently questioned a few lyrics is wrong too. I think it was a general air of disapproval coming from him, as well as the occasional obnoxious remark or aggressive questioning of certain lyrics.

I think it's pretty much established that disapproval was coming at Brian from pretty much every direction except from below. Murry hated it, not all the band were thrilled (in addition to Mike) and Capitol were screaming for the product they'd not only been promised but had printed a shitload of packaging for. VDP was having second thoughts and even the Vosse Posse were starting to go "Ummmmmmmmmmmm...".

Can't recall who, but as one inside observer noted later, "the moment was there... and then it passed".

I'd agree that Brian was absolutely dealing with pressure and some element of disapproval from various sources (not just Mike). The key question I ask myself though, is: can one particular person's personality have a deeper effect than the personalities of other people?

Can a given person's specific brand of body language/sour attitude/sarcasm/passive aggressive swipes, etc. worm its way into the heart of someone else in a manner that can reasonably be considered far more damaging, or at least in a way that effects someone else in a *particular* way, like nobody else can? Yes, I personally think that is a very reasonable possibility.

I've known certain people who just get under my skin in a *very* specific way, as only THEY can.

That's why, IMHO, it seems most plausible to me that Mike's specific attitude and specific way of communicating (that was unique to him, just as everyone else's communication style is unique to them) could very well have had a most particular effect on Brian. It doesn't mean that other people/circumstances weren't factors too - but it means that, in my estimation, if Brian felt a specific kind of sinking feeling from Mike's brand of communication, that would mean that Mike most likely had a bigger effect on demoralizing Brian's confidence in the project when compared to the other band members, if we are going to be "weighing" circumstances and people surrounding the project. There is "blame" to be spread around, or at least "reasons" and "contributing factors"... and yes - ultimately, Brian is the person who made the ultimate choice to scrap it. That's not something I'll ever quibble about.

Eeek! .... Did Mike wear a Michael Myers mask while in the studio in order to terrify Brian? ..... Maybe so! We just don't know!

Mike might have had an attitude, but Brian had power and power trumps attitude!

It wasn't like Mike was there even half the time Brian was working on SMILE stuff. He came in to do his vocals and got the hell out. I think you're agonizing over Mike/SMILE more than Brian and Mike combined ever have! ....Do you really think Brian was working away on something as complex as Surf's Up all the while worrying and worrying why Mike's shoulders were hunched a particular way or if his smile was really a smirk or his smirk a smile? No, I highly doubt it..... Mike's opinion was very low on the list of Brian's priorities.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Lou, refresh my memory where is that December date nailed down by a participant?

While no date (March included) has been nailed down by a participant, Van Dyke says he left shortly after the Fire session which was late November.  About a week later was the Cabinessence vocal session that Mike sang the lyrics to and presumably questioned, prompting Van Dyke's non defense and his exit.

Why would Mike question the lyrics and demand to know what they mean three months later, when Brian is working on Heroes exclusively?  And he sang them three months before?  It doesn't make sense.  While Mike was singing "doot doot doot, Heroes and Villains" he confronted Brian with "Oh and by the way I need to know what those over the cornfield lyrics mean, right now - get Van Dyke here?"  

Van Dyke left for about a month, but returned as a session musician in January to help Brian finish the Heroes single.  Van Dyke had a vested interest in at least getting that out, a Beach Boys followup to Good Vibrations that would be a huge windfall financially and creative reputation wise for Van Dyke.  He left again after the final Heroes session March 1/2 to pursue his own record project.  This is around the time of the lawsuit so that is part of the confusion about the date of Van Dyke leaving.  Essentially he left twice, but the songwriting collaboration with Brian really finished in November/early December, although some sections of Heroes may have been reworked with Van (it's unclear when the "sunny down snuff" section was done but an eyewitness has said that it was attempted in December but met with resistance from a certain deep voiced balding member of the Beach Boys who shall go nameless).

The last sentence there is very revealing. Yes, Mike did NOT kill, sabotage or axe SMiLE. But swinging too far the other way and acting like he only ever innocently questioned a few lyrics is wrong too. I think it was a general air of disapproval coming from him, as well as the occasional obnoxious remark or aggressive questioning of certain lyrics.

I think it's pretty much established that disapproval was coming at Brian from pretty much every direction except from below. Murry hated it, not all the band were thrilled (in addition to Mike) and Capitol were screaming for the product they'd not only been promised but had printed a shitload of packaging for. VDP was having second thoughts and even the Vosse Posse were starting to go "Ummmmmmmmmmmm...".

Can't recall who, but as one inside observer noted later, "the moment was there... and then it passed".

I'd agree that Brian was absolutely dealing with pressure and some element of disapproval from various sources (not just Mike). The key question I ask myself though, is: can one particular person's personality have a deeper effect than the personalities of other people?

Can a given person's specific brand of body language/sour attitude/sarcasm/passive aggressive swipes, etc. worm its way into the heart of someone else in a manner that can reasonably be considered far more damaging, or at least in a way that effects someone else in a *particular* way, like nobody else can? Yes, I personally think that is a very reasonable possibility.

I've known certain people who just get under my skin in a *very* specific way, as only THEY can.

That's why, IMHO, it seems most plausible to me that Mike's specific attitude and specific way of communicating (that was unique to him, just as everyone else's communication style is unique to them) could very well have had a most particular effect on Brian. It doesn't mean that other people/circumstances weren't factors too - but it means that, in my estimation, if Brian felt a specific kind of sinking feeling from Mike's brand of communication, that would mean that Mike most likely had a bigger effect on demoralizing Brian's confidence in the project when compared to the other band members, if we are going to be "weighing" circumstances and people surrounding the project. There is "blame" to be spread around, or at least "reasons" and "contributing factors"... and yes - ultimately, Brian is the person who made the ultimate choice to scrap it. That's not something I'll ever quibble about.

Eeek! .... Did Mike wear a Michael Myers mask while in the studio in order to terrify Brian? ..... Maybe so! We just don't know!

Mike might have had an attitude, but Brian had power and power trumps attitude!

It wasn't like Mike was there even half the time Brian was working on SMILE stuff. He came in to do his vocals and got the hell out. I think you're agonizing over Mike/SMILE more than Brian and Mike combined ever have! ....Do you really think Brian was working away on something as complex as Surf's Up all the while worrying and worrying why Mike's shoulders were hunched a particular way or if his smile was really a smirk or his smirk a smile? No, I highly doubt it..... Mike's opinion was very low on the list of Brian's priorities.

Mike's role as the antagonist has definitely been overstated over the years but we can't rule his disapproval out entirely. Fact is, Brian/VDP have repeatedly said he didn't like what they were doing. Not Murry didn't like it, not Capitol didn't like it...but MIKE didn't like it. So there has to be some significance there. Only Brian had authority to scrape SMiLE, no ones debating that. But I'd bet my life Mike did more than just ask "Hey Van, old buddy, mind telling me what this line means, please?"

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Lou, refresh my memory where is that December date nailed down by a participant?

While no date (March included) has been nailed down by a participant, Van Dyke says he left shortly after the Fire session which was late November.  About a week later was the Cabinessence vocal session that Mike sang the lyrics to and presumably questioned, prompting Van Dyke's non defense and his exit.

Why would Mike question the lyrics and demand to know what they mean three months later, when Brian is working on Heroes exclusively?  And he sang them three months before?  It doesn't make sense.  While Mike was singing "doot doot doot, Heroes and Villains" he confronted Brian with "Oh and by the way I need to know what those over the cornfield lyrics mean, right now - get Van Dyke here?"  

Van Dyke left for about a month, but returned as a session musician in January to help Brian finish the Heroes single.  Van Dyke had a vested interest in at least getting that out, a Beach Boys followup to Good Vibrations that would be a huge windfall financially and creative reputation wise for Van Dyke.  He left again after the final Heroes session March 1/2 to pursue his own record project.  This is around the time of the lawsuit so that is part of the confusion about the date of Van Dyke leaving.  Essentially he left twice, but the songwriting collaboration with Brian really finished in November/early December, although some sections of Heroes may have been reworked with Van (it's unclear when the "sunny down snuff" section was done but an eyewitness has said that it was attempted in December but met with resistance from a certain deep voiced balding member of the Beach Boys who shall go nameless).

The last sentence there is very revealing. Yes, Mike did NOT kill, sabotage or axe SMiLE. But swinging too far the other way and acting like he only ever innocently questioned a few lyrics is wrong too. I think it was a general air of disapproval coming from him, as well as the occasional obnoxious remark or aggressive questioning of certain lyrics.

I think it's pretty much established that disapproval was coming at Brian from pretty much every direction except from below. Murry hated it, not all the band were thrilled (in addition to Mike) and Capitol were screaming for the product they'd not only been promised but had printed a shitload of packaging for. VDP was having second thoughts and even the Vosse Posse were starting to go "Ummmmmmmmmmmm...".

Can't recall who, but as one inside observer noted later, "the moment was there... and then it passed".

I'd agree that Brian was absolutely dealing with pressure and some element of disapproval from various sources (not just Mike). The key question I ask myself though, is: can one particular person's personality have a deeper effect than the personalities of other people?

Can a given person's specific brand of body language/sour attitude/sarcasm/passive aggressive swipes, etc. worm its way into the heart of someone else in a manner that can reasonably be considered far more damaging, or at least in a way that effects someone else in a *particular* way, like nobody else can? Yes, I personally think that is a very reasonable possibility.

I've known certain people who just get under my skin in a *very* specific way, as only THEY can.

That's why, IMHO, it seems most plausible to me that Mike's specific attitude and specific way of communicating (that was unique to him, just as everyone else's communication style is unique to them) could very well have had a most particular effect on Brian. It doesn't mean that other people/circumstances weren't factors too - but it means that, in my estimation, if Brian felt a specific kind of sinking feeling from Mike's brand of communication, that would mean that Mike most likely had a bigger effect on demoralizing Brian's confidence in the project when compared to the other band members, if we are going to be "weighing" circumstances and people surrounding the project. There is "blame" to be spread around, or at least "reasons" and "contributing factors"... and yes - ultimately, Brian is the person who made the ultimate choice to scrap it. That's not something I'll ever quibble about.

Eeek! .... Did Mike wear a Michael Myers mask while in the studio in order to terrify Brian? ..... Maybe so! We just don't know!

Mike might have had an attitude, but Brian had power and power trumps attitude!

It wasn't like Mike was there even half the time Brian was working on SMILE stuff. He came in to do his vocals and got the hell out. I think you're agonizing over Mike/SMILE more than Brian and Mike combined ever have! ....Do you really think Brian was working away on something as complex as Surf's Up all the while worrying and worrying why Mike's shoulders were hunched a particular way or if his smile was really a smirk or his smirk a smile? No, I highly doubt it..... Mike's opinion was very low on the list of Brian's priorities.

Mike's role as the antagonist has definitely been overstated over the years but we can't rule his disapproval out entirely. Fact is, Brian/VDP have repeatedly said he didn't like what they were doing. Not Murry didn't like it, not Capitol didn't like it...but MIKE didn't like it. So there has to be some significance there. Only Brian had authority to scrape SMiLE, no ones debating that. But I'd bet my life Mike did more than just ask "Hey Van, old buddy, mind telling me what this line means, please?"

Once again, total speculation (as for your last point) ........ Problem here is, we're getting into stuff we simply can't ever know! .... If you want to assume Brian was deeply hurt and unmotivated by Mike, you're going to think that, but you can't prove it in any sort of way, therefore there is nothing to be gained other than talking about it and stating the same opinion over and over and over and over and over.....

[Cam Mott]

Didn’t VDP say something more like he stayed away from or after the Fire sessions? And as you say it can seem kind of vague as to what VDP and others mean by leaving the project or quitting but I think VDP himself has cleared it up.

I understand it is logical to presume it involved the earlier vocal sessions for CE but it is just a presumption until better evidence. I think VDP himself has given pretty good evidence for a very late date.

VDP: “I was stunned. Usually I did not go to sessions…but Brian called and said would I come and help Mike with the lyrics…there was some question about them.”

To me “usually did not go sessions” would be evidence for a later date as he attended only one session as far as we know in 1967. It wouldn't fit nearly as well or at all with an earlier date.

We know from Mike, and VDP, he asked what the lyric meant. We only know he wanted to know the meaning but it doesn’t tell us if he wanted to know before or during or after he sang the lyric for recording.

VDP: “I had written the words, see, and I was seeking the threshold for ‘over and over the crow cries uncover the cornfield’…geez? So I said ‘Mike, I don’t know’. Soon I was fired, that is I resigned, that is I dissolved my relationship…”

Now we are getting to something dateable. “Soon” after the incident “fired/resigned/dissolved”. Dissolved relationship in the context of SMiLE would seem to rule out further relationship. Resigned would normally mean the end of the relationship. Fired would signal the end of the relationship. If you are coming back for a session or to explain a lyric would that be a relationship in the context of SMiLE that was fired/resigned/dissolved”?

VDP: “Brian was the only person I knew, and I worked with the Beach Boys in 1966 and by 1967, I was fired. Because it was already decided, quickly, by Mike Love, as well, I mean down to the least known members, that I had written some words which were indecipherable and unnecessary. In short, they had had a better lyricist on Pet Sounds than they had on what is now called Smiley Smile. Smile, the album that was to have come out, which was proof of pudding, which took place during a transference of a tremendous amount of litigation…”

His working relationship extended into 1967. So if his relationship ended because of the lyrics and he was “fired” shortly after the incident it was some time in 1967. To VDP he was “fired” on the “proof of the pudding” (lyrics) during a tremendous amount of litigation. Is there any other tremendous amount of litigation besides the Capitol suit which was filed February 23, 1967?

Also we have  Anderle’s contemporaneous description to Paul Williams of when Van Dyke left, “Their parting was kind of tragic, in the fact that there were two people who absolutely did not want to separate but they both knew that they had to separate, that they could not work together. 'Cause they were too strong, you know, in their own areas.” Right around February, yeah. Van was getting — his lyric was too sophisticated, and in some areas Brian's music was not sophisticated enough, and so they started clashing on that.”

[CenturyDeprived]

Lou, refresh my memory where is that December date nailed down by a participant?

While no date (March included) has been nailed down by a participant, Van Dyke says he left shortly after the Fire session which was late November.  About a week later was the Cabinessence vocal session that Mike sang the lyrics to and presumably questioned, prompting Van Dyke's non defense and his exit.

Why would Mike question the lyrics and demand to know what they mean three months later, when Brian is working on Heroes exclusively?  And he sang them three months before?  It doesn't make sense.  While Mike was singing "doot doot doot, Heroes and Villains" he confronted Brian with "Oh and by the way I need to know what those over the cornfield lyrics mean, right now - get Van Dyke here?"  

Van Dyke left for about a month, but returned as a session musician in January to help Brian finish the Heroes single.  Van Dyke had a vested interest in at least getting that out, a Beach Boys followup to Good Vibrations that would be a huge windfall financially and creative reputation wise for Van Dyke.  He left again after the final Heroes session March 1/2 to pursue his own record project.  This is around the time of the lawsuit so that is part of the confusion about the date of Van Dyke leaving.  Essentially he left twice, but the songwriting collaboration with Brian really finished in November/early December, although some sections of Heroes may have been reworked with Van (it's unclear when the "sunny down snuff" section was done but an eyewitness has said that it was attempted in December but met with resistance from a certain deep voiced balding member of the Beach Boys who shall go nameless).

The last sentence there is very revealing. Yes, Mike did NOT kill, sabotage or axe SMiLE. But swinging too far the other way and acting like he only ever innocently questioned a few lyrics is wrong too. I think it was a general air of disapproval coming from him, as well as the occasional obnoxious remark or aggressive questioning of certain lyrics.

I think it's pretty much established that disapproval was coming at Brian from pretty much every direction except from below. Murry hated it, not all the band were thrilled (in addition to Mike) and Capitol were screaming for the product they'd not only been promised but had printed a shitload of packaging for. VDP was having second thoughts and even the Vosse Posse were starting to go "Ummmmmmmmmmmm...".

Can't recall who, but as one inside observer noted later, "the moment was there... and then it passed".

I'd agree that Brian was absolutely dealing with pressure and some element of disapproval from various sources (not just Mike). The key question I ask myself though, is: can one particular person's personality have a deeper effect than the personalities of other people?

Can a given person's specific brand of body language/sour attitude/sarcasm/passive aggressive swipes, etc. worm its way into the heart of someone else in a manner that can reasonably be considered far more damaging, or at least in a way that effects someone else in a *particular* way, like nobody else can? Yes, I personally think that is a very reasonable possibility.

I've known certain people who just get under my skin in a *very* specific way, as only THEY can.

That's why, IMHO, it seems most plausible to me that Mike's specific attitude and specific way of communicating (that was unique to him, just as everyone else's communication style is unique to them) could very well have had a most particular effect on Brian. It doesn't mean that other people/circumstances weren't factors too - but it means that, in my estimation, if Brian felt a specific kind of sinking feeling from Mike's brand of communication, that would mean that Mike most likely had a bigger effect on demoralizing Brian's confidence in the project when compared to the other band members, if we are going to be "weighing" circumstances and people surrounding the project. There is "blame" to be spread around, or at least "reasons", and yes - ultimately, Brian is the person who made the ultimate choice to scrap it. That's not something I'll ever quibble about.

I have to hand it to you, you are doing your damnedest to make Mike the fall guy if even in the most indirect fashion. I am sure that Mike's persona did not make that drastic a change from pre-Smile to Smile. After reading what it took Mark Linett to assemble Smile, I can fully comprehend why Brian was overwhelmed trying to finish it up. Until something more definitive comes to light, this to me is more the reason that Smile was ultimately shelved.

At no point am I saying Mike needs to be considered a “fall guy” for the demise of the project. The project fell apart due to a number of factors. I simply think that Mike was a particular contributing factor. It’s impossible to quantify just how much of a factor he was (related to all the other circumstances), but enough of a factor that I believe it stood out in Brian’s mind as being a pretty big deal (even taking the other reasons into consideration). I’d be shocked if that weren’t how Brian felt. If the discussion is “well, since there were other factors too, that means Mike shouldn’t have had to take an ounce/morsel of responsibility at any point over the last 47 years”, I would say that I don’t quite agree with that. I think that Mike’s hurt feelings and attitudes, which were quite specific to this project, made a difference in coloring the vibrations in the air, so to speak.

It would really have pleased me to have seen Mike mention an ounce of regret in some interview at some point, not only because I think it would have made Brian feel a little bit better, but also because he’d probably have at least 50% less haters - it’s quite painful to see emotional stonewalling of a painful subject (at least in a public sense – and I speculate likely in a private sense too) in and of itself be nearly as damaging, if not more damaging, that the damage that the original actions may have caused.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Don't you have family or real people in your life that you can demand apologies from, or isn't there a friend or family member you might need to apologize to for something you did 50 years ago?

The last thing Mike needs to worry about are fanboys who "hate" him because of something he and his cousin got over decades ago....

As for Beautiful Dreamer/Brian/VDP saying "Mike didn't like it': ..... what do we usually have to say about people who are responsible for something (outside of Beach Boys fandom where common sense has value) yet blame others for their mistakes or for dropping the ball?