Has Mike Expressed Remorse On Whatever Role He May Have Played in Smile's Demise

[CenturyDeprived]

I don't think the problem was "technical". It wasn't that hard, didn't take that much time, and Brian had enough studio help to accomplish the cutting and splicing.

I believe that Brian lost the vision, lost the focus, and maybe lost the faith. But more importantly, due to the increasing mental illness, the increasing consumption of drugs, and all of those other "pressures" that we've been discussing, I think that Brian lost the ability - yes, ability. By that I mean that he was no longer physically or emotionally able to handle the modular form of recording an album like SMiLE. I think it zapped him. The patience, the concentration, and the physical endurance required to record an entire album like that finally took its toll. It burned him out. He gave up. And he's never been the same. Never, ever tried that hard again.

While I agree with your post on whole, I dispute your assertion on the technical aspects. Even Mark Linett believes it took the computer age to put Smile together properly.

Let's keep in mind that Linnett had to work with blending in acetates, lost elements, pitch shifting vocals, extraction, etc... many of which were necessitated by tape elements that have been lost to time, and the fact that you can't create new vocal takes with 45-years-younger people anymore, nor can you re-record new takes.

Linnett's circumstances were unique to what he had to work with. Brian may not have had ProTools or non-linear editing at his disposal... and while Brian certainly had a LOT on his plate, he didn't have to deal with those specific 2011 obstacles which truly only non-linear editing and digital trickery could remedy.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

I don't think the problem was "technical". It wasn't that hard, didn't take that much time, and Brian had enough studio help to accomplish the cutting and splicing.

I believe that Brian lost the vision, lost the focus, and maybe lost the faith. But more importantly, due to the increasing mental illness, the increasing consumption of drugs, and all of those other "pressures" that we've been discussing, I think that Brian lost the ability - yes, ability. By that I mean that he was no longer physically or emotionally able to handle the modular form of recording an album like SMiLE. I think it zapped him. The patience, the concentration, and the physical endurance required to record an entire album like that finally took its toll. It burned him out. He gave up. And he's never been the same. Never, ever tried that hard again.

While I agree with your post on whole, I dispute your assertion on the technical aspects. Even Mark Linett believes it took the computer age to put Smile together properly.

But Brian's SMiLE would've been a whole other animal from Mark's or any fan mix. A 35ish minute album, minus GV's 3:30...
Again, would it have been a loborous endeavor? Absolutely. But had so much time not been wasted on H&V I think they could've just made it. They only needed 11 more three minute songs to mix down. There was no concept of suites or linking the tracks together. It wouldve been hard work, but I don't think it was impossible

[drbeachboy]

I don't think the problem was "technical". It wasn't that hard, didn't take that much time, and Brian had enough studio help to accomplish the cutting and splicing.

I believe that Brian lost the vision, lost the focus, and maybe lost the faith. But more importantly, due to the increasing mental illness, the increasing consumption of drugs, and all of those other "pressures" that we've been discussing, I think that Brian lost the ability - yes, ability. By that I mean that he was no longer physically or emotionally able to handle the modular form of recording an album like SMiLE. I think it zapped him. The patience, the concentration, and the physical endurance required to record an entire album like that finally took its toll. It burned him out. He gave up. And he's never been the same. Never, ever tried that hard again.

While I agree with your post on whole, I dispute your assertion on the technical aspects. Even Mark Linett believes it took the computer age to put Smile together properly.

Let's keep in mind that Linnett had to work with blending in acetates, lost elements, pitch shifting vocals, extraction, etc... many of which were necessitated by tape elements that have been lost to time, and the fact that you can't create new vocal takes with 45-years-younger people anymore, nor can you re-record new takes. Linnett's circumstances were unique to what he had to work with.

As much as Brian was moving things around it had to be a tedious process, especially if he kept re-splicing pieces many times over. I am sure it was frustrating moving pieces around, then changing your mind many times over. It seems to me it was jigsaw puzzle that he could never quite piece together to his liking.

[CenturyDeprived]

I don't think the problem was "technical". It wasn't that hard, didn't take that much time, and Brian had enough studio help to accomplish the cutting and splicing.

I believe that Brian lost the vision, lost the focus, and maybe lost the faith. But more importantly, due to the increasing mental illness, the increasing consumption of drugs, and all of those other "pressures" that we've been discussing, I think that Brian lost the ability - yes, ability. By that I mean that he was no longer physically or emotionally able to handle the modular form of recording an album like SMiLE. I think it zapped him. The patience, the concentration, and the physical endurance required to record an entire album like that finally took its toll. It burned him out. He gave up. And he's never been the same. Never, ever tried that hard again.

All of these things are true. Nobody can be fingered as being the one to "shelve" SMiLE except BW, because he pulled the plug. He was worn down.

That other people were contributing factors which led him to get to that point shouldn't be dismissed either.  Either by us, or the people themselves.

To me, "contributing factors" as opposed to outright "blame" is the most balanced way to view any given element/person/circumstance in the saga which, when combined with the other elements/people/circumstances at hand, helped zap BW's ability to finish the album.

[CenturyDeprived]

I don't think the problem was "technical". It wasn't that hard, didn't take that much time, and Brian had enough studio help to accomplish the cutting and splicing.

I believe that Brian lost the vision, lost the focus, and maybe lost the faith. But more importantly, due to the increasing mental illness, the increasing consumption of drugs, and all of those other "pressures" that we've been discussing, I think that Brian lost the ability - yes, ability. By that I mean that he was no longer physically or emotionally able to handle the modular form of recording an album like SMiLE. I think it zapped him. The patience, the concentration, and the physical endurance required to record an entire album like that finally took its toll. It burned him out. He gave up. And he's never been the same. Never, ever tried that hard again.

While I agree with your post on whole, I dispute your assertion on the technical aspects. Even Mark Linett believes it took the computer age to put Smile together properly.

Let's keep in mind that Linnett had to work with blending in acetates, lost elements, pitch shifting vocals, extraction, etc... many of which were necessitated by tape elements that have been lost to time, and the fact that you can't create new vocal takes with 45-years-younger people anymore, nor can you re-record new takes. Linnett's circumstances were unique to what he had to work with.

As much as Brian was moving things around it had to be a tedious process, especially if he kept re-splicing pieces many times over. I am sure it was frustrating moving pieces around, then changing your mind many times over. It seems to me it was jigsaw puzzle that he could never quite piece together to his liking.

Nobody's arguing it was a very tedious process. And I think that even if he had completed and released the album in '67, BW never would have fully, truly been happy with it, nor would it 100% have been "to his liking" since he was seeking perfectionism. I think it would've been imperfect to Brian no matter how you sliced it.

[drbeachboy]

I don't think the problem was "technical". It wasn't that hard, didn't take that much time, and Brian had enough studio help to accomplish the cutting and splicing.

I believe that Brian lost the vision, lost the focus, and maybe lost the faith. But more importantly, due to the increasing mental illness, the increasing consumption of drugs, and all of those other "pressures" that we've been discussing, I think that Brian lost the ability - yes, ability. By that I mean that he was no longer physically or emotionally able to handle the modular form of recording an album like SMiLE. I think it zapped him. The patience, the concentration, and the physical endurance required to record an entire album like that finally took its toll. It burned him out. He gave up. And he's never been the same. Never, ever tried that hard again.

All of these things are true. Nobody can be fingered as being the one to "shelve" SMiLE except BW, because he pulled the plug. He was worn down. That other people were contributing factors which led him to get to that point shouldn't be dismissed either. To me, "contributing factors" as opposed to outright "blame" is the most balanced way to view any given element/person/circumstance in the saga which, when combined with the other elements/people/circumstances at hand, helped zap BW's ability to finish the album.

I don't think people were the only issue. I think technical issues involved in the changing and piecing different modular sections together proved to time consuming. Brian basically threw in the towel once he knew Smile wouldn't be finished before the Beatles released Sgt. Pepper.

[drbeachboy]

I don't think the problem was "technical". It wasn't that hard, didn't take that much time, and Brian had enough studio help to accomplish the cutting and splicing.

I believe that Brian lost the vision, lost the focus, and maybe lost the faith. But more importantly, due to the increasing mental illness, the increasing consumption of drugs, and all of those other "pressures" that we've been discussing, I think that Brian lost the ability - yes, ability. By that I mean that he was no longer physically or emotionally able to handle the modular form of recording an album like SMiLE. I think it zapped him. The patience, the concentration, and the physical endurance required to record an entire album like that finally took its toll. It burned him out. He gave up. And he's never been the same. Never, ever tried that hard again.

While I agree with your post on whole, I dispute your assertion on the technical aspects. Even Mark Linett believes it took the computer age to put Smile together properly.

Let's keep in mind that Linnett had to work with blending in acetates, lost elements, pitch shifting vocals, extraction, etc... many of which were necessitated by tape elements that have been lost to time, and the fact that you can't create new vocal takes with 45-years-younger people anymore, nor can you re-record new takes. Linnett's circumstances were unique to what he had to work with.

As much as Brian was moving things around it had to be a tedious process, especially if he kept re-splicing pieces many times over. I am sure it was frustrating moving pieces around, then changing your mind many times over. It seems to me it was jigsaw puzzle that he could never quite piece together to his liking.

Nobody's arguing it was a very tedious process. And I think that even if he had completed and released the album in '67, BW never would have fully, truly been happy with it, nor would it 100% have been "to his liking" since he was seeking perfectionism. I think it would've been imperfect to Brian no matter how you sliced it.

Not my point. My point is that the process had more to do with the shelving than not being apologized to by Mike.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

For me, Piper was THE album of 1967. Pepper had some great tracks but on the whole it was hype that pushed it over the top... duh, it's The Beatles. They played "hype" as well as they played the studio. 

Obviously history has spoken and I'm wrong on this. But while the Beatles may have got the glory, there were much better albums from at least a dozen other bands released that year, all experimenting with psychedelia. The Beatles get all the credit in the mainstream media tho, because the only band close to them in stature was a no show and as you said, they had the better PR machine.

Secret weapon here is Ringo! .... Thanks to him, mainly, Pepper just FEELS so good. And the kids will always go for that.

2 and #3 in the charts were Are You Experienced and Surrealistic Pillow. I think the kids were just plain into the new psychedelic sound. And aside from The United States of America (1968) and the previously mentioned Piper, I don't think there's ever been a more "far out" mindfu¢k album than SMiLE. Many of you act like it was "too weird" to have made an impact. But I think it really was just what the people wanted/needed to hear. Brian may have doubted himself but his creative instincts were right on the money. 

Those albums all rocked though! .... Even Forever Changes kicks ass in places.

SP has a lot of ballads. SMiLE rocks as far as H&V,VT and GV are concerned.

SMILE does not rock at all when compared to what did rock at the time (and since) ...... Fire might be the closest, but the drums on just about everything else are great but pretty much, as interesting as all the varied percussion is,  an afterthought ..... Brian just didn't care about that end of things all that much. Drums hurt his good ear as it was.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

For me, Piper was THE album of 1967. Pepper had some great tracks but on the whole it was hype that pushed it over the top... duh, it's The Beatles. They played "hype" as well as they played the studio. 

Obviously history has spoken and I'm wrong on this. But while the Beatles may have got the glory, there were much better albums from at least a dozen other bands released that year, all experimenting with psychedelia. The Beatles get all the credit in the mainstream media tho, because the only band close to them in stature was a no show and as you said, they had the better PR machine.

Secret weapon here is Ringo! .... Thanks to him, mainly, Pepper just FEELS so good. And the kids will always go for that.

2 and #3 in the charts were Are You Experienced and Surrealistic Pillow. I think the kids were just plain into the new psychedelic sound. And aside from The United States of America (1968) and the previously mentioned Piper, I don't think there's ever been a more "far out" mindfu¢k album than SMiLE. Many of you act like it was "too weird" to have made an impact. But I think it really was just what the people wanted/needed to hear. Brian may have doubted himself but his creative instincts were right on the money. 

Those albums all rocked though! .... Even Forever Changes kicks ass in places.

SP has a lot of ballads. SMiLE rocks as far as H&V,VT and GV are concerned.

SMILE does not rock at all when compared to what did rock at the time (and since) ...... Fire might be the closest, but the drums on just about everything else are great but pretty much, as interesting as all the varied percussion is,  an afterthought ..... Brian just didn't care about that end of things all that much. Drums hurt his good ear as it was.

Well, going by your definition of what rocks, I wouldn't consider any of Sgt Pepper to be rock either, and that went to number one.

At the end of the day, we'll never know how well received SMiLE would've been. There *IS* a chance it could've been massive, however unlikely you think it is. I don't believe it wouldve been anything close to a flop though. That to me, is just ludicrous thinking.

[CenturyDeprived]

For me, Piper was THE album of 1967. Pepper had some great tracks but on the whole it was hype that pushed it over the top... duh, it's The Beatles. They played "hype" as well as they played the studio. 

Obviously history has spoken and I'm wrong on this. But while the Beatles may have got the glory, there were much better albums from at least a dozen other bands released that year, all experimenting with psychedelia. The Beatles get all the credit in the mainstream media tho, because the only band close to them in stature was a no show and as you said, they had the better PR machine.

Secret weapon here is Ringo! .... Thanks to him, mainly, Pepper just FEELS so good. And the kids will always go for that.

2 and #3 in the charts were Are You Experienced and Surrealistic Pillow. I think the kids were just plain into the new psychedelic sound. And aside from The United States of America (1968) and the previously mentioned Piper, I don't think there's ever been a more "far out" mindfu¢k album than SMiLE. Many of you act like it was "too weird" to have made an impact. But I think it really was just what the people wanted/needed to hear. Brian may have doubted himself but his creative instincts were right on the money. 

Those albums all rocked though! .... Even Forever Changes kicks ass in places.

SP has a lot of ballads. SMiLE rocks as far as H&V,VT and GV are concerned.

SMILE does not rock at all when compared to what did rock at the time (and since) ...... Fire might be the closest, but the drums on just about everything else are great but pretty much, as interesting as all the varied percussion is,  an afterthought ..... Brian just didn't care about that end of things all that much. Drums hurt his good ear as it was.

Well, going by your definition of what rocks, I wouldn't consider any of Sgt Pepper to be rock either, and that went to number one.

At the end of the day, we'll never know how well received SMiLE would've been. There *IS* a chance it could've been massive, however unlikely you think it is. I don't believe it wouldve been anything close to a flop though. That to me, is just ludicrous thinking.

I think the SMiLE version of Wind Chimes absolutely "rocks". I was seriously headbanging to the choruses when I first heard the TSS version. Simply awesome.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

For me, Piper was THE album of 1967. Pepper had some great tracks but on the whole it was hype that pushed it over the top... duh, it's The Beatles. They played "hype" as well as they played the studio. 

Obviously history has spoken and I'm wrong on this. But while the Beatles may have got the glory, there were much better albums from at least a dozen other bands released that year, all experimenting with psychedelia. The Beatles get all the credit in the mainstream media tho, because the only band close to them in stature was a no show and as you said, they had the better PR machine.

Secret weapon here is Ringo! .... Thanks to him, mainly, Pepper just FEELS so good. And the kids will always go for that.

2 and #3 in the charts were Are You Experienced and Surrealistic Pillow. I think the kids were just plain into the new psychedelic sound. And aside from The United States of America (1968) and the previously mentioned Piper, I don't think there's ever been a more "far out" mindfu¢k album than SMiLE. Many of you act like it was "too weird" to have made an impact. But I think it really was just what the people wanted/needed to hear. Brian may have doubted himself but his creative instincts were right on the money. 

Those albums all rocked though! .... Even Forever Changes kicks ass in places.

SP has a lot of ballads. SMiLE rocks as far as H&V,VT and GV are concerned.

SMILE does not rock at all when compared to what did rock at the time (and since) ...... Fire might be the closest, but the drums on just about everything else are great but pretty much, as interesting as all the varied percussion is,  an afterthought ..... Brian just didn't care about that end of things all that much. Drums hurt his good ear as it was.

Well, going by your definition of what rocks, I wouldn't consider any of Sgt Pepper to be rock either, and that went to number one.

At the end of the day, we'll never know how well received SMiLE would've been. There *IS* a chance it could've been massive, however unlikely you think it is. I don't believe it wouldve been anything close to a flop though. That to me, is just ludicrous thinking.

I think the SMiLE version of Wind Chimes absolutely "rocks". I was seriously headbanging to the choruses when I first heard the TSS version. Simply awesome.

Yeah, you and me headbang to it, but we're insane Beach Boy freaks! I'm talking about some teenager or young adult in 1967 who's just finished side 2 of Axis: Bold As Love.... Much of SMILE would have sounded like old folk's music.

[CenturyDeprived]

For me, Piper was THE album of 1967. Pepper had some great tracks but on the whole it was hype that pushed it over the top... duh, it's The Beatles. They played "hype" as well as they played the studio.  

Obviously history has spoken and I'm wrong on this. But while the Beatles may have got the glory, there were much better albums from at least a dozen other bands released that year, all experimenting with psychedelia. The Beatles get all the credit in the mainstream media tho, because the only band close to them in stature was a no show and as you said, they had the better PR machine.

Secret weapon here is Ringo! .... Thanks to him, mainly, Pepper just FEELS so good. And the kids will always go for that.

2 and #3 in the charts were Are You Experienced and Surrealistic Pillow. I think the kids were just plain into the new psychedelic sound. And aside from The United States of America (1968) and the previously mentioned Piper, I don't think there's ever been a more "far out" mindfu¢k album than SMiLE. Many of you act like it was "too weird" to have made an impact. But I think it really was just what the people wanted/needed to hear. Brian may have doubted himself but his creative instincts were right on the money.

Those albums all rocked though! .... Even Forever Changes kicks ass in places.

SP has a lot of ballads. SMiLE rocks as far as H&V,VT and GV are concerned.

SMILE does not rock at all when compared to what did rock at the time (and since) ...... Fire might be the closest, but the drums on just about everything else are great but pretty much, as interesting as all the varied percussion is,  an afterthought ..... Brian just didn't care about that end of things all that much. Drums hurt his good ear as it was.

Well, going by your definition of what rocks, I wouldn't consider any of Sgt Pepper to be rock either, and that went to number one.

At the end of the day, we'll never know how well received SMiLE would've been. There *IS* a chance it could've been massive, however unlikely you think it is. I don't believe it wouldve been anything close to a flop though. That to me, is just ludicrous thinking.

I think the SMiLE version of Wind Chimes absolutely "rocks". I was seriously headbanging to the choruses when I first heard the TSS version. Simply awesome.

Yeah, you and me headbang to it, but we're insane Beach Boy freaks! I'm talking about some teenager or young adult in 1967 who's just finished side 2 of Axis: Bold As Love.... Much of SMILE would have sounded like old folk's music.

In some sense, I do agree with what you're saying. Yes, we are BB freaks so it's tough to have full perspective on the "rocking" thing
Still, I think touches like the fuzz bass on Cabinessence, Fire, and the Wind Chimes choruses to name a few, would have still "rocked" to young peoples' ears, and the drugged out haze of the album would have magnetized it to teenagers of the psychedelic era. It would have been the thinking-teenager's answer to the more traditionally "cool" music of the time.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

For me, Piper was THE album of 1967. Pepper had some great tracks but on the whole it was hype that pushed it over the top... duh, it's The Beatles. They played "hype" as well as they played the studio.  

Obviously history has spoken and I'm wrong on this. But while the Beatles may have got the glory, there were much better albums from at least a dozen other bands released that year, all experimenting with psychedelia. The Beatles get all the credit in the mainstream media tho, because the only band close to them in stature was a no show and as you said, they had the better PR machine.

Secret weapon here is Ringo! .... Thanks to him, mainly, Pepper just FEELS so good. And the kids will always go for that.

2 and #3 in the charts were Are You Experienced and Surrealistic Pillow. I think the kids were just plain into the new psychedelic sound. And aside from The United States of America (1968) and the previously mentioned Piper, I don't think there's ever been a more "far out" mindfu¢k album than SMiLE. Many of you act like it was "too weird" to have made an impact. But I think it really was just what the people wanted/needed to hear. Brian may have doubted himself but his creative instincts were right on the money.

Those albums all rocked though! .... Even Forever Changes kicks ass in places.

SP has a lot of ballads. SMiLE rocks as far as H&V,VT and GV are concerned.

SMILE does not rock at all when compared to what did rock at the time (and since) ...... Fire might be the closest, but the drums on just about everything else are great but pretty much, as interesting as all the varied percussion is,  an afterthought ..... Brian just didn't care about that end of things all that much. Drums hurt his good ear as it was.

Well, going by your definition of what rocks, I wouldn't consider any of Sgt Pepper to be rock either, and that went to number one.

At the end of the day, we'll never know how well received SMiLE would've been. There *IS* a chance it could've been massive, however unlikely you think it is. I don't believe it wouldve been anything close to a flop though. That to me, is just ludicrous thinking.

I think the SMiLE version of Wind Chimes absolutely "rocks". I was seriously headbanging to the choruses when I first heard the TSS version. Simply awesome.

Yeah, you and me headbang to it, but we're insane Beach Boy freaks! I'm talking about some teenager or young adult in 1967 who's just finished side 2 of Axis: Bold As Love.... Much of SMILE would have sounded like old folk's music.

In some sense, I do agree with what you're saying. Yes, we are BB freaks so it's tough to have full perspective on the "rocking" thing
Still, I think touches like the fuzz bass on Cabinessence, Fire, and the Wind Chimes choruses to name a few, would have still "rocked" to young peoples' ears, and the drugged out haze of the album would have magnetized it to teenagers of the psychedelic era. It would have been the thinking-teenager's answer to the more traditionally "cool" music of the time.

Yeah, I can certainly agree with that. There would have likely been a cabal of "thinking" teenagers who would gravitate to it.

[Sheriff John Stone]

Can you imagine being a music fan in 1967:

1.  The Beatles - Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band
2.  The Doors - The Doors
3.  The Moody Blues - Days Of Future Passed
4.  Love - Forever Changes
5.  Jefferson Airplane - Surrealistic Pillow
6.  Pink Floyd - The Piper At The Gates Of Dawn
7.  The Velvet Underground & Nico
8.  The Kinks - Something Else By The Kinks
9.  Jimi Hendrix - Are You Experienced

and...

10. The Beach Boys - Smile(ey Smile)

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Can you imagine being a music fan in 1967:

1.  The Beatles - Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band
2.  The Doors - The Doors
3.  The Moody Blues - Days Of Future Passed
4.  Love - Forever Changes
5.  Jefferson Airplane - Surrealistic Pillow
6.  Pink Floyd - The Piper At The Gates Of Dawn
7.  The Velvet Underground & Nico
8.  The Kinks - Something Else By The Kinks
9.  Jimi Hendrix - Are You Experienced

and...

10. The Beach Boys - Smile(ey Smile)

It really was the golden year. Your list doesn't even scratch the surface.

[guitarfool2002]

Maybe it's a case of what Yogi Berra called "deja vu all over again", or some of my own character flaws involving arrogance and the like, but I see theories here in the most recent pages that have already been run up the flagpole in years past. It's kind of cool to see other fans analyzing and reaching conclusions, but a lot of it seems like theories that have been already hashed out, and not expecting everyone to read the full archives and everything, it's all good in a way.

But things like the technical aspects of Smile in 1966/67 versus modern recording methods, I don't think there is much doubt that technology and lack thereof was a *HUGE* factor in 1966/67.

As was Van Dyke's exit a case of getting a chance to be his own boss, at a time where others in the Smile inner circle saw Van Dyke coming to resent the way Brian could boss him around at times. What musician in 1967, in his early to mid 20's and not having done anything close to the level of being a household name would not JUMP at the chance to have carte blanche in the finer LA studios with the finest pop musicians in LA at his beck and call to record his own quirky takes on the popular song form? Seriously, the chance even today is too good to pass up, so Van Dyke signed the deal and walked away from Smile.

Simple as that, even with all the factors surrounding him and Brian. Was there guilt, hard feelings, and the like? Of course. But keep in mind, too, that for decades Van Dyke has remained loyal to Brian, protective of Brian and the work they did together, and has also in many ways been more humble about the whole thing than others might have been in light of all that happened.

Technology: That's an easy one. If you want to edit, shift, time-stretch, and replace "chorus 2" in a song with an extended verse compiled from two separate verses, it's a matter of pointing and clicking in a digital program.

In 1967, the most rudimentary, the most basic of these editing concepts which are done easily in digital programs took what engineer Jim Lockert called "a miracle" when he was tasked with editing Smiley Smile. They were taking vocals from one verse and grafting them onto another take of an existing verse, a version of comping tracks, that in 2014 is commonplace if not standard, but the methods to do this in 1967 - on the lo-fi album Smiley Smile of all things - just didn't exist in a user-friendly process as it does now, and Jim's "miracle" was pushing his editing and splicing skills to the max to make it happen.

I'll say again, the finished sound of that album belies the amount of work that was done editing and mixing it by pros like Jim Lockert.

And for Brian in 1966/67 with Smile, he had a table full of square pegs and only round holes left on the board to try fitting them in. After a certain point, due in large part to Van Dyke's involvement I'll say, the songs themselves went from more basic edits like Cabinessence, Surf's Up, Child Is Father, etc. into the confusing mess that was Heroes and later Vegetables, the two "singles" mentioned in the press in '67.

They were comprised of parts, fragments, segments...and fitting them together, even getting the chance to edit them on-the-fly to hear what flowed into another part best and what didn't work was not as instant as it is in digital, simple as that. You had 12 fragments, supposed to be interchangeable, yet auditioning them needed focus beyond imagining them flowing together and that focus nor the technology to make this easy to change things around on these tapes wasn't there.

40+ years later, it was.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Maybe it's a case of what Yogi Berra called "deja vu all over again", or some of my own character flaws involving arrogance and the like, but I see theories here in the most recent pages that have already been run up the flagpole in years past. It's kind of cool to see other fans analyzing and reaching conclusions, but a lot of it seems like theories that have been already hashed out, and not expecting everyone to read the full archives and everything, it's all good in a way.

But things like the technical aspects of Smile in 1966/67 versus modern recording methods, I don't think there is much doubt that technology and lack thereof was a *HUGE* factor in 1966/67.

As was Van Dyke's exit a case of getting a chance to be his own boss, at a time where others in the Smile inner circle saw Van Dyke coming to resent the way Brian could boss him around at times. What musician in 1967, in his early to mid 20's and not having done anything close to the level of being a household name would not JUMP at the chance to have carte blanche in the finer LA studios with the finest pop musicians in LA at his beck and call to record his own quirky takes on the popular song form? Seriously, the chance even today is too good to pass up, so Van Dyke signed the deal and walked away from Smile.

Simple as that, even with all the factors surrounding him and Brian. Was there guilt, hard feelings, and the like? Of course. But keep in mind, too, that for decades Van Dyke has remained loyal to Brian, protective of Brian and the work they did together, and has also in many ways been more humble about the whole thing than others might have been in light of all that happened.

Technology: That's an easy one. If you want to edit, shift, time-stretch, and replace "chorus 2" in a song with an extended verse compiled from two separate verses, it's a matter of pointing and clicking in a digital program.

In 1967, the most rudimentary, the most basic of these editing concepts which are done easily in digital programs took what engineer Jim Lockert called "a miracle" when he was tasked with editing Smiley Smile. They were taking vocals from one verse and grafting them onto another take of an existing verse, a version of comping tracks, that in 2014 is commonplace if not standard, but the methods to do this in 1967 - on the lo-fi album Smiley Smile of all things - just didn't exist in a user-friendly process as it does now, and Jim's "miracle" was pushing his editing and splicing skills to the max to make it happen.

I'll say again, the finished sound of that album belies the amount of work that was done editing and mixing it by pros like Jim Lockert.

And for Brian in 1966/67 with Smile, he had a table full of square pegs and only round holes left on the board to try fitting them in. After a certain point, due in large part to Van Dyke's involvement I'll say, the songs themselves went from more basic edits like Cabinessence, Surf's Up, Child Is Father, etc. into the confusing mess that was Heroes and later Vegetables, the two "singles" mentioned in the press in '67.

They were comprised of parts, fragments, segments...and fitting them together, even getting the chance to edit them on-the-fly to hear what flowed into another part best and what didn't work was not as instant as it is in digital, simple as that. You had 12 fragments, supposed to be interchangeable, yet auditioning them needed focus beyond imagining them flowing together and that focus nor the technology to make this easy to change things around on these tapes wasn't there.

40+ years later, it was.

Tape editing was an art form!!!!

Apparently Close To The Edge by Yes, was by and large the both the biggest tape editing nightmare of all time, and the greatest tape editing achievement at the time..... And it was apparently a complete nightmare.... And this was a song which the band was capable of performing straight through! .... I can't even wrap my head around the idea of piecing SMILE together on tape!!!!

Now I'm wondering HAD Smile come out as planned, would we have gotten "Still Smilin" instead of "Still Cruisin"

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Maybe it's a case of what Yogi Berra called "deja vu all over again", or some of my own character flaws involving arrogance and the like, but I see theories here in the most recent pages that have already been run up the flagpole in years past. It's kind of cool to see other fans analyzing and reaching conclusions, but a lot of it seems like theories that have been already hashed out, and not expecting everyone to read the full archives and everything, it's all good in a way.

But things like the technical aspects of Smile in 1966/67 versus modern recording methods, I don't think there is much doubt that technology and lack thereof was a *HUGE* factor in 1966/67.

As was Van Dyke's exit a case of getting a chance to be his own boss, at a time where others in the Smile inner circle saw Van Dyke coming to resent the way Brian could boss him around at times. What musician in 1967, in his early to mid 20's and not having done anything close to the level of being a household name would not JUMP at the chance to have carte blanche in the finer LA studios with the finest pop musicians in LA at his beck and call to record his own quirky takes on the popular song form? Seriously, the chance even today is too good to pass up, so Van Dyke signed the deal and walked away from Smile.

Simple as that, even with all the factors surrounding him and Brian. Was there guilt, hard feelings, and the like? Of course. But keep in mind, too, that for decades Van Dyke has remained loyal to Brian, protective of Brian and the work they did together, and has also in many ways been more humble about the whole thing than others might have been in light of all that happened.

Technology: That's an easy one. If you want to edit, shift, time-stretch, and replace "chorus 2" in a song with an extended verse compiled from two separate verses, it's a matter of pointing and clicking in a digital program.

In 1967, the most rudimentary, the most basic of these editing concepts which are done easily in digital programs took what engineer Jim Lockert called "a miracle" when he was tasked with editing Smiley Smile. They were taking vocals from one verse and grafting them onto another take of an existing verse, a version of comping tracks, that in 2014 is commonplace if not standard, but the methods to do this in 1967 - on the lo-fi album Smiley Smile of all things - just didn't exist in a user-friendly process as it does now, and Jim's "miracle" was pushing his editing and splicing skills to the max to make it happen.

I'll say again, the finished sound of that album belies the amount of work that was done editing and mixing it by pros like Jim Lockert.

And for Brian in 1966/67 with Smile, he had a table full of square pegs and only round holes left on the board to try fitting them in. After a certain point, due in large part to Van Dyke's involvement I'll say, the songs themselves went from more basic edits like Cabinessence, Surf's Up, Child Is Father, etc. into the confusing mess that was Heroes and later Vegetables, the two "singles" mentioned in the press in '67.

They were comprised of parts, fragments, segments...and fitting them together, even getting the chance to edit them on-the-fly to hear what flowed into another part best and what didn't work was not as instant as it is in digital, simple as that. You had 12 fragments, supposed to be interchangeable, yet auditioning them needed focus beyond imagining them flowing together and that focus nor the technology to make this easy to change things around on these tapes wasn't there.

40+ years later, it was.

Very enlightening post. I concede I had no grasp of how difficult it would be to edit until this comment schooled me. My god, I thought Smiley was supposed to be a simple, stripped down, done-in-as-few-takes-as-possible-because-this-album-is-eight-months-late type thing, and to hear that THAT was a nightmare to edit really brings it into perspective.

There's one thing I take issue with. Maybe I read you wrong, but you seem to imply it was VDP's fault that H&V (and to a much lesser extent, VT) devolved into the unworkable clusterfu¢ks they did. I don't see how anyone could blame VDP for such a thing, since he kept Brian focused through much of 66 and it was Brian who made the fateful (and in hindsight, foolish) decision to work so laboriously on this damn follow up single AFTER Van first left in December. It was Brian who lost sight of the project and descended into indulgence and indecision come 67. I'd further argue that this was a huge factor in Van quitting. And who could blame him? You're offered a solo album carte blanch in your early twenties...why should you stick around on a project going nowhere taking Mike's crap and watching Brian spiral out of control?

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Maybe it's a case of what Yogi Berra called "deja vu all over again", or some of my own character flaws involving arrogance and the like, but I see theories here in the most recent pages that have already been run up the flagpole in years past. It's kind of cool to see other fans analyzing and reaching conclusions, but a lot of it seems like theories that have been already hashed out, and not expecting everyone to read the full archives and everything, it's all good in a way.

But things like the technical aspects of Smile in 1966/67 versus modern recording methods, I don't think there is much doubt that technology and lack thereof was a *HUGE* factor in 1966/67.

As was Van Dyke's exit a case of getting a chance to be his own boss, at a time where others in the Smile inner circle saw Van Dyke coming to resent the way Brian could boss him around at times. What musician in 1967, in his early to mid 20's and not having done anything close to the level of being a household name would not JUMP at the chance to have carte blanche in the finer LA studios with the finest pop musicians in LA at his beck and call to record his own quirky takes on the popular song form? Seriously, the chance even today is too good to pass up, so Van Dyke signed the deal and walked away from Smile.

Simple as that, even with all the factors surrounding him and Brian. Was there guilt, hard feelings, and the like? Of course. But keep in mind, too, that for decades Van Dyke has remained loyal to Brian, protective of Brian and the work they did together, and has also in many ways been more humble about the whole thing than others might have been in light of all that happened.

Technology: That's an easy one. If you want to edit, shift, time-stretch, and replace "chorus 2" in a song with an extended verse compiled from two separate verses, it's a matter of pointing and clicking in a digital program.

In 1967, the most rudimentary, the most basic of these editing concepts which are done easily in digital programs took what engineer Jim Lockert called "a miracle" when he was tasked with editing Smiley Smile. They were taking vocals from one verse and grafting them onto another take of an existing verse, a version of comping tracks, that in 2014 is commonplace if not standard, but the methods to do this in 1967 - on the lo-fi album Smiley Smile of all things - just didn't exist in a user-friendly process as it does now, and Jim's "miracle" was pushing his editing and splicing skills to the max to make it happen.

I'll say again, the finished sound of that album belies the amount of work that was done editing and mixing it by pros like Jim Lockert.

And for Brian in 1966/67 with Smile, he had a table full of square pegs and only round holes left on the board to try fitting them in. After a certain point, due in large part to Van Dyke's involvement I'll say, the songs themselves went from more basic edits like Cabinessence, Surf's Up, Child Is Father, etc. into the confusing mess that was Heroes and later Vegetables, the two "singles" mentioned in the press in '67.

They were comprised of parts, fragments, segments...and fitting them together, even getting the chance to edit them on-the-fly to hear what flowed into another part best and what didn't work was not as instant as it is in digital, simple as that. You had 12 fragments, supposed to be interchangeable, yet auditioning them needed focus beyond imagining them flowing together and that focus nor the technology to make this easy to change things around on these tapes wasn't there.

40+ years later, it was.

Very enlightening post. I concede I had no grasp of how difficult it would be to edit until this comment schooled me. My god, I thought Smiley was supposed to be a simple, stripped down, done-in-as-few-takes-as-possible-because-this-album-is-eight-months-late type thing, and to hear that THAT was a nightmare to edit really brings it into perspective.

There's one thing I take issue with. Maybe I read you wrong, but you seem to imply it was VDP's fault that H&V (and to a much lesser extent, VT) devolved into the unworkable clusterfu¢ks they did. I don't see how anyone could blame VDP for such a thing, since he kept Brian focused through much of 66 and it was Brian who made the fateful (and in hindsight, foolish) decision to work so laboriously on this damn follow up single AFTER Van first left in December. It was Brian who lost sight of the project and descended into indulgence and indecision come 67. I'd further argue that this was a huge factor in Van quitting. And who could blame him? You're offered a solo album carte blanch in your early twenties...why should you stick around on a project going nowhere taking Mike's crap and watching Brian spiral out of control?

OK, so after all this we're back to worrying about who's "fault" it was and "Mike's crap"?

[guitarfool2002]

The Smiley Smile album is one of the biggest contradictions in all of rock music as far as the sound of an album masking what went into it. What sounds like a band cutting things off-the-cuff had in some cases a lot more editing and work done than what it sounds like, and that is also the mark of a very skilled engineer - if you don't hear the edits, and if they were not meant to be deliberate as in some cases, then it's a fantastic job by whoever did the editing!

The Van Dyke comments were misunderstood, and re-reading them I can see how, I wasn't clear enough.

My feeling is that when Brian and Van Dyke were working together, there was a definite focus that can be heard on those tracks I mentioned like Surf's Up, Cabinessence, Child Is Father, etc. They stand alone as musical statements, and of course there were edits done later to "finish" them but it wasn't a case of having dozens of Heroes fragments that when taken as standalone musical pieces did not amount to much.

They *depended* on the sequencing to work and to flow, and also to be put into a context that would make sense. Think "Good Vibrations", and that's another deeper key to this kind of discussion.

Brian - admittedly - was chasing Good Vibrations, and at some point he admits "how do you top Good Vibrations? You can't." So trying to recapture the lightning in a bottle that made Good Vibrations a hit single after many misfires and shelvings and self-doubt just never panned out with Heroes.

I think a tragedy with Heroes is that Chuck Britz did have, in fact, a damn good single edited and mixed which we all know, the "Cantina" version. But ultimately, that was like Brian's early GV mixes and variations, it never reached the point where he'd snap his fingers and go "That's IT!" and know he had a winner as happened with GV.

The focus was not there, and he started tinkering, having neither the focus nor the technology to make it as possible as it could have been.

And after Van Dyke left, his musical partner-in-crime was gone, as was the musical counterpart who he could both compete with and exchange ideas with, and who I think when they were together had an energy that inner circle Smile folks saw and reported was palpable. It was one-upsmanship combined with the sheer flow of creativity and taking new directions. Brian's collaborators had never done that until Van Dyke came into the fold.

And where Van Dyke went after he went on his own...a musically sophisticated, highly unique and advanced musical creation that was one of the poorest selling albums up to that point, a commercial flop. Brian wasn't there with his innate commercial sensibility and producer's sixth-sense that marked his better work.

And where Brian was after Van left...he continued to work on the Smile tracks, but what of them was he focusing on? Not the grand musical statements, not those compositions which could stand on their own, but rather recording pieces and overdubs and vocal dressings that on their own didn't have the sweeping scope of what he and Van had done in the months prior.

It's the difference between hearing, say, the "Child" sessions or anything similar and the stuff they recorded when Van Dyke wasn't there. The focus had changed, and I'd suggest the separate pieces of Van Dyke and Brian in 1967 were nowhere near the force that they were when they were working side by side. You can hear it and see it on what got recorded and when it got recorded.

In no way was I blaming anyone, I just wasn't being thorough enough to explain it.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Maybe it's a case of what Yogi Berra called "deja vu all over again", or some of my own character flaws involving arrogance and the like, but I see theories here in the most recent pages that have already been run up the flagpole in years past. It's kind of cool to see other fans analyzing and reaching conclusions, but a lot of it seems like theories that have been already hashed out, and not expecting everyone to read the full archives and everything, it's all good in a way.

But things like the technical aspects of Smile in 1966/67 versus modern recording methods, I don't think there is much doubt that technology and lack thereof was a *HUGE* factor in 1966/67.

As was Van Dyke's exit a case of getting a chance to be his own boss, at a time where others in the Smile inner circle saw Van Dyke coming to resent the way Brian could boss him around at times. What musician in 1967, in his early to mid 20's and not having done anything close to the level of being a household name would not JUMP at the chance to have carte blanche in the finer LA studios with the finest pop musicians in LA at his beck and call to record his own quirky takes on the popular song form? Seriously, the chance even today is too good to pass up, so Van Dyke signed the deal and walked away from Smile.

Simple as that, even with all the factors surrounding him and Brian. Was there guilt, hard feelings, and the like? Of course. But keep in mind, too, that for decades Van Dyke has remained loyal to Brian, protective of Brian and the work they did together, and has also in many ways been more humble about the whole thing than others might have been in light of all that happened.

Technology: That's an easy one. If you want to edit, shift, time-stretch, and replace "chorus 2" in a song with an extended verse compiled from two separate verses, it's a matter of pointing and clicking in a digital program.

In 1967, the most rudimentary, the most basic of these editing concepts which are done easily in digital programs took what engineer Jim Lockert called "a miracle" when he was tasked with editing Smiley Smile. They were taking vocals from one verse and grafting them onto another take of an existing verse, a version of comping tracks, that in 2014 is commonplace if not standard, but the methods to do this in 1967 - on the lo-fi album Smiley Smile of all things - just didn't exist in a user-friendly process as it does now, and Jim's "miracle" was pushing his editing and splicing skills to the max to make it happen.

I'll say again, the finished sound of that album belies the amount of work that was done editing and mixing it by pros like Jim Lockert.

And for Brian in 1966/67 with Smile, he had a table full of square pegs and only round holes left on the board to try fitting them in. After a certain point, due in large part to Van Dyke's involvement I'll say, the songs themselves went from more basic edits like Cabinessence, Surf's Up, Child Is Father, etc. into the confusing mess that was Heroes and later Vegetables, the two "singles" mentioned in the press in '67.

They were comprised of parts, fragments, segments...and fitting them together, even getting the chance to edit them on-the-fly to hear what flowed into another part best and what didn't work was not as instant as it is in digital, simple as that. You had 12 fragments, supposed to be interchangeable, yet auditioning them needed focus beyond imagining them flowing together and that focus nor the technology to make this easy to change things around on these tapes wasn't there.

40+ years later, it was.

Very enlightening post. I concede I had no grasp of how difficult it would be to edit until this comment schooled me. My god, I thought Smiley was supposed to be a simple, stripped down, done-in-as-few-takes-as-possible-because-this-album-is-eight-months-late type thing, and to hear that THAT was a nightmare to edit really brings it into perspective.

There's one thing I take issue with. Maybe I read you wrong, but you seem to imply it was VDP's fault that H&V (and to a much lesser extent, VT) devolved into the unworkable clusterfu¢ks they did. I don't see how anyone could blame VDP for such a thing, since he kept Brian focused through much of 66 and it was Brian who made the fateful (and in hindsight, foolish) decision to work so laboriously on this damn follow up single AFTER Van first left in December. It was Brian who lost sight of the project and descended into indulgence and indecision come 67. I'd further argue that this was a huge factor in Van quitting. And who could blame him? You're offered a solo album carte blanch in your early twenties...why should you stick around on a project going nowhere taking Mike's crap and watching Brian spiral out of control?

OK, so after all this we're back to worrying about who's "fault" it was and "Mike's crap"?

Seriously man, take the stick out of your a$$. All I've contributed to this thread specifically, my balanced assessments of Mike...and you call me out for some one off comment I make intended to represent VDP's point of view? You...are a frustrating person sometimes.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Maybe it's a case of what Yogi Berra called "deja vu all over again", or some of my own character flaws involving arrogance and the like, but I see theories here in the most recent pages that have already been run up the flagpole in years past. It's kind of cool to see other fans analyzing and reaching conclusions, but a lot of it seems like theories that have been already hashed out, and not expecting everyone to read the full archives and everything, it's all good in a way.

But things like the technical aspects of Smile in 1966/67 versus modern recording methods, I don't think there is much doubt that technology and lack thereof was a *HUGE* factor in 1966/67.

As was Van Dyke's exit a case of getting a chance to be his own boss, at a time where others in the Smile inner circle saw Van Dyke coming to resent the way Brian could boss him around at times. What musician in 1967, in his early to mid 20's and not having done anything close to the level of being a household name would not JUMP at the chance to have carte blanche in the finer LA studios with the finest pop musicians in LA at his beck and call to record his own quirky takes on the popular song form? Seriously, the chance even today is too good to pass up, so Van Dyke signed the deal and walked away from Smile.

Simple as that, even with all the factors surrounding him and Brian. Was there guilt, hard feelings, and the like? Of course. But keep in mind, too, that for decades Van Dyke has remained loyal to Brian, protective of Brian and the work they did together, and has also in many ways been more humble about the whole thing than others might have been in light of all that happened.

Technology: That's an easy one. If you want to edit, shift, time-stretch, and replace "chorus 2" in a song with an extended verse compiled from two separate verses, it's a matter of pointing and clicking in a digital program.

In 1967, the most rudimentary, the most basic of these editing concepts which are done easily in digital programs took what engineer Jim Lockert called "a miracle" when he was tasked with editing Smiley Smile. They were taking vocals from one verse and grafting them onto another take of an existing verse, a version of comping tracks, that in 2014 is commonplace if not standard, but the methods to do this in 1967 - on the lo-fi album Smiley Smile of all things - just didn't exist in a user-friendly process as it does now, and Jim's "miracle" was pushing his editing and splicing skills to the max to make it happen.

I'll say again, the finished sound of that album belies the amount of work that was done editing and mixing it by pros like Jim Lockert.

And for Brian in 1966/67 with Smile, he had a table full of square pegs and only round holes left on the board to try fitting them in. After a certain point, due in large part to Van Dyke's involvement I'll say, the songs themselves went from more basic edits like Cabinessence, Surf's Up, Child Is Father, etc. into the confusing mess that was Heroes and later Vegetables, the two "singles" mentioned in the press in '67.

They were comprised of parts, fragments, segments...and fitting them together, even getting the chance to edit them on-the-fly to hear what flowed into another part best and what didn't work was not as instant as it is in digital, simple as that. You had 12 fragments, supposed to be interchangeable, yet auditioning them needed focus beyond imagining them flowing together and that focus nor the technology to make this easy to change things around on these tapes wasn't there.

40+ years later, it was.

Very enlightening post. I concede I had no grasp of how difficult it would be to edit until this comment schooled me. My god, I thought Smiley was supposed to be a simple, stripped down, done-in-as-few-takes-as-possible-because-this-album-is-eight-months-late type thing, and to hear that THAT was a nightmare to edit really brings it into perspective.

There's one thing I take issue with. Maybe I read you wrong, but you seem to imply it was VDP's fault that H&V (and to a much lesser extent, VT) devolved into the unworkable clusterfu¢ks they did. I don't see how anyone could blame VDP for such a thing, since he kept Brian focused through much of 66 and it was Brian who made the fateful (and in hindsight, foolish) decision to work so laboriously on this damn follow up single AFTER Van first left in December. It was Brian who lost sight of the project and descended into indulgence and indecision come 67. I'd further argue that this was a huge factor in Van quitting. And who could blame him? You're offered a solo album carte blanch in your early twenties...why should you stick around on a project going nowhere taking Mike's crap and watching Brian spiral out of control?

OK, so after all this we're back to worrying about who's "fault" it was and "Mike's crap"?

Seriously man, take the stick out of your a$$. All I've contributed to this thread specifically, my balanced assessments of Mike...and you call me out for some one off comment I make intended to represent VDP's point of view? You...are a frustrating person sometimes.

I know that! But what I mean to imply is that maybe if we watch our language, how we word things, and maybe provide more detail than "Mike's crap" and not leap to things like "you say it's VDP's fault?" ... these things won't blow up like they do..... I know how I put it is irritating to read, but please at least think about it.

[CenturyDeprived]

Maybe it's a case of what Yogi Berra called "deja vu all over again", or some of my own character flaws involving arrogance and the like, but I see theories here in the most recent pages that have already been run up the flagpole in years past. It's kind of cool to see other fans analyzing and reaching conclusions, but a lot of it seems like theories that have been already hashed out, and not expecting everyone to read the full archives and everything, it's all good in a way.

But things like the technical aspects of Smile in 1966/67 versus modern recording methods, I don't think there is much doubt that technology and lack thereof was a *HUGE* factor in 1966/67.

As was Van Dyke's exit a case of getting a chance to be his own boss, at a time where others in the Smile inner circle saw Van Dyke coming to resent the way Brian could boss him around at times. What musician in 1967, in his early to mid 20's and not having done anything close to the level of being a household name would not JUMP at the chance to have carte blanche in the finer LA studios with the finest pop musicians in LA at his beck and call to record his own quirky takes on the popular song form? Seriously, the chance even today is too good to pass up, so Van Dyke signed the deal and walked away from Smile.

Simple as that, even with all the factors surrounding him and Brian. Was there guilt, hard feelings, and the like? Of course. But keep in mind, too, that for decades Van Dyke has remained loyal to Brian, protective of Brian and the work they did together, and has also in many ways been more humble about the whole thing than others might have been in light of all that happened.

Technology: That's an easy one. If you want to edit, shift, time-stretch, and replace "chorus 2" in a song with an extended verse compiled from two separate verses, it's a matter of pointing and clicking in a digital program.

In 1967, the most rudimentary, the most basic of these editing concepts which are done easily in digital programs took what engineer Jim Lockert called "a miracle" when he was tasked with editing Smiley Smile. They were taking vocals from one verse and grafting them onto another take of an existing verse, a version of comping tracks, that in 2014 is commonplace if not standard, but the methods to do this in 1967 - on the lo-fi album Smiley Smile of all things - just didn't exist in a user-friendly process as it does now, and Jim's "miracle" was pushing his editing and splicing skills to the max to make it happen.

I'll say again, the finished sound of that album belies the amount of work that was done editing and mixing it by pros like Jim Lockert.

And for Brian in 1966/67 with Smile, he had a table full of square pegs and only round holes left on the board to try fitting them in. After a certain point, due in large part to Van Dyke's involvement I'll say, the songs themselves went from more basic edits like Cabinessence, Surf's Up, Child Is Father, etc. into the confusing mess that was Heroes and later Vegetables, the two "singles" mentioned in the press in '67.

They were comprised of parts, fragments, segments...and fitting them together, even getting the chance to edit them on-the-fly to hear what flowed into another part best and what didn't work was not as instant as it is in digital, simple as that. You had 12 fragments, supposed to be interchangeable, yet auditioning them needed focus beyond imagining them flowing together and that focus nor the technology to make this easy to change things around on these tapes wasn't there.

40+ years later, it was.

Very enlightening post. I concede I had no grasp of how difficult it would be to edit until this comment schooled me. My god, I thought Smiley was supposed to be a simple, stripped down, done-in-as-few-takes-as-possible-because-this-album-is-eight-months-late type thing, and to hear that THAT was a nightmare to edit really brings it into perspective.

There's one thing I take issue with. Maybe I read you wrong, but you seem to imply it was VDP's fault that H&V (and to a much lesser extent, VT) devolved into the unworkable clusterfu¢ks they did. I don't see how anyone could blame VDP for such a thing, since he kept Brian focused through much of 66 and it was Brian who made the fateful (and in hindsight, foolish) decision to work so laboriously on this damn follow up single AFTER Van first left in December. It was Brian who lost sight of the project and descended into indulgence and indecision come 67. I'd further argue that this was a huge factor in Van quitting. And who could blame him? You're offered a solo album carte blanch in your early twenties...why should you stick around on a project going nowhere taking Mike's crap and watching Brian spiral out of control?

OK, so after all this we're back to worrying about who's "fault" it was and "Mike's crap"?

Seriously man, take the stick out of your a$$. All I've contributed to this thread specifically, my balanced assessments of Mike...and you call me out for some one off comment I make intended to represent VDP's point of view? You...are a frustrating person sometimes.

I know that! But what I mean to imply is that maybe if we watch our language, how we word things, and maybe provide more detail than "Mike's crap" and not leap to things like "you say it's VDP's fault?" ... these things won't blow up like they do..... I know how I put it is irritating to read, but please at least think about it.

Pinder - would you have objected if Mujan had originally typed in "...on a project going nowhere taking (what VDP probably viewed as) Mike's crap"?

Honest question, since I also wonder how I can delicately communicate on this board without being my comments being taken the wrong way.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Maybe it's a case of what Yogi Berra called "deja vu all over again", or some of my own character flaws involving arrogance and the like, but I see theories here in the most recent pages that have already been run up the flagpole in years past. It's kind of cool to see other fans analyzing and reaching conclusions, but a lot of it seems like theories that have been already hashed out, and not expecting everyone to read the full archives and everything, it's all good in a way.

But things like the technical aspects of Smile in 1966/67 versus modern recording methods, I don't think there is much doubt that technology and lack thereof was a *HUGE* factor in 1966/67.

As was Van Dyke's exit a case of getting a chance to be his own boss, at a time where others in the Smile inner circle saw Van Dyke coming to resent the way Brian could boss him around at times. What musician in 1967, in his early to mid 20's and not having done anything close to the level of being a household name would not JUMP at the chance to have carte blanche in the finer LA studios with the finest pop musicians in LA at his beck and call to record his own quirky takes on the popular song form? Seriously, the chance even today is too good to pass up, so Van Dyke signed the deal and walked away from Smile.

Simple as that, even with all the factors surrounding him and Brian. Was there guilt, hard feelings, and the like? Of course. But keep in mind, too, that for decades Van Dyke has remained loyal to Brian, protective of Brian and the work they did together, and has also in many ways been more humble about the whole thing than others might have been in light of all that happened.

Technology: That's an easy one. If you want to edit, shift, time-stretch, and replace "chorus 2" in a song with an extended verse compiled from two separate verses, it's a matter of pointing and clicking in a digital program.

In 1967, the most rudimentary, the most basic of these editing concepts which are done easily in digital programs took what engineer Jim Lockert called "a miracle" when he was tasked with editing Smiley Smile. They were taking vocals from one verse and grafting them onto another take of an existing verse, a version of comping tracks, that in 2014 is commonplace if not standard, but the methods to do this in 1967 - on the lo-fi album Smiley Smile of all things - just didn't exist in a user-friendly process as it does now, and Jim's "miracle" was pushing his editing and splicing skills to the max to make it happen.

I'll say again, the finished sound of that album belies the amount of work that was done editing and mixing it by pros like Jim Lockert.

And for Brian in 1966/67 with Smile, he had a table full of square pegs and only round holes left on the board to try fitting them in. After a certain point, due in large part to Van Dyke's involvement I'll say, the songs themselves went from more basic edits like Cabinessence, Surf's Up, Child Is Father, etc. into the confusing mess that was Heroes and later Vegetables, the two "singles" mentioned in the press in '67.

They were comprised of parts, fragments, segments...and fitting them together, even getting the chance to edit them on-the-fly to hear what flowed into another part best and what didn't work was not as instant as it is in digital, simple as that. You had 12 fragments, supposed to be interchangeable, yet auditioning them needed focus beyond imagining them flowing together and that focus nor the technology to make this easy to change things around on these tapes wasn't there.

40+ years later, it was.

Very enlightening post. I concede I had no grasp of how difficult it would be to edit until this comment schooled me. My god, I thought Smiley was supposed to be a simple, stripped down, done-in-as-few-takes-as-possible-because-this-album-is-eight-months-late type thing, and to hear that THAT was a nightmare to edit really brings it into perspective.

There's one thing I take issue with. Maybe I read you wrong, but you seem to imply it was VDP's fault that H&V (and to a much lesser extent, VT) devolved into the unworkable clusterfu¢ks they did. I don't see how anyone could blame VDP for such a thing, since he kept Brian focused through much of 66 and it was Brian who made the fateful (and in hindsight, foolish) decision to work so laboriously on this damn follow up single AFTER Van first left in December. It was Brian who lost sight of the project and descended into indulgence and indecision come 67. I'd further argue that this was a huge factor in Van quitting. And who could blame him? You're offered a solo album carte blanch in your early twenties...why should you stick around on a project going nowhere taking Mike's crap and watching Brian spiral out of control?

OK, so after all this we're back to worrying about who's "fault" it was and "Mike's crap"?

Seriously man, take the stick out of your a$$. All I've contributed to this thread specifically, my balanced assessments of Mike...and you call me out for some one off comment I make intended to represent VDP's point of view? You...are a frustrating person sometimes.

I know that! But what I mean to imply is that maybe if we watch our language, how we word things, and maybe provide more detail than "Mike's crap" and not leap to things like "you say it's VDP's fault?" ... these things won't blow up like they do..... I know how I put it is irritating to read, but please at least think about it.

I didn't jump to conclussions. I conceded I may have misread and offered my 'rebuttal' to what I thought guitarfool was implying in a civil, intelligent manner. "Taking Mike's Crap" may not be historically true, but in VDP's perspective (which I was illustrating) that was the situation.

If you care about watching language to avoid blow ups you might want to learn to let things go. I feel I've been very fair in my assessment of what happened, my posts are pretty articulate and thought out if I say so myself...but I feel like if I'm not 100% on your same train of thought you react either aggressively or dismissively. Just letting you know.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Maybe it's a case of what Yogi Berra called "deja vu all over again", or some of my own character flaws involving arrogance and the like, but I see theories here in the most recent pages that have already been run up the flagpole in years past. It's kind of cool to see other fans analyzing and reaching conclusions, but a lot of it seems like theories that have been already hashed out, and not expecting everyone to read the full archives and everything, it's all good in a way.

But things like the technical aspects of Smile in 1966/67 versus modern recording methods, I don't think there is much doubt that technology and lack thereof was a *HUGE* factor in 1966/67.

As was Van Dyke's exit a case of getting a chance to be his own boss, at a time where others in the Smile inner circle saw Van Dyke coming to resent the way Brian could boss him around at times. What musician in 1967, in his early to mid 20's and not having done anything close to the level of being a household name would not JUMP at the chance to have carte blanche in the finer LA studios with the finest pop musicians in LA at his beck and call to record his own quirky takes on the popular song form? Seriously, the chance even today is too good to pass up, so Van Dyke signed the deal and walked away from Smile.

Simple as that, even with all the factors surrounding him and Brian. Was there guilt, hard feelings, and the like? Of course. But keep in mind, too, that for decades Van Dyke has remained loyal to Brian, protective of Brian and the work they did together, and has also in many ways been more humble about the whole thing than others might have been in light of all that happened.

Technology: That's an easy one. If you want to edit, shift, time-stretch, and replace "chorus 2" in a song with an extended verse compiled from two separate verses, it's a matter of pointing and clicking in a digital program.

In 1967, the most rudimentary, the most basic of these editing concepts which are done easily in digital programs took what engineer Jim Lockert called "a miracle" when he was tasked with editing Smiley Smile. They were taking vocals from one verse and grafting them onto another take of an existing verse, a version of comping tracks, that in 2014 is commonplace if not standard, but the methods to do this in 1967 - on the lo-fi album Smiley Smile of all things - just didn't exist in a user-friendly process as it does now, and Jim's "miracle" was pushing his editing and splicing skills to the max to make it happen.

I'll say again, the finished sound of that album belies the amount of work that was done editing and mixing it by pros like Jim Lockert.

And for Brian in 1966/67 with Smile, he had a table full of square pegs and only round holes left on the board to try fitting them in. After a certain point, due in large part to Van Dyke's involvement I'll say, the songs themselves went from more basic edits like Cabinessence, Surf's Up, Child Is Father, etc. into the confusing mess that was Heroes and later Vegetables, the two "singles" mentioned in the press in '67.

They were comprised of parts, fragments, segments...and fitting them together, even getting the chance to edit them on-the-fly to hear what flowed into another part best and what didn't work was not as instant as it is in digital, simple as that. You had 12 fragments, supposed to be interchangeable, yet auditioning them needed focus beyond imagining them flowing together and that focus nor the technology to make this easy to change things around on these tapes wasn't there.

40+ years later, it was.

Very enlightening post. I concede I had no grasp of how difficult it would be to edit until this comment schooled me. My god, I thought Smiley was supposed to be a simple, stripped down, done-in-as-few-takes-as-possible-because-this-album-is-eight-months-late type thing, and to hear that THAT was a nightmare to edit really brings it into perspective.

There's one thing I take issue with. Maybe I read you wrong, but you seem to imply it was VDP's fault that H&V (and to a much lesser extent, VT) devolved into the unworkable clusterfu¢ks they did. I don't see how anyone could blame VDP for such a thing, since he kept Brian focused through much of 66 and it was Brian who made the fateful (and in hindsight, foolish) decision to work so laboriously on this damn follow up single AFTER Van first left in December. It was Brian who lost sight of the project and descended into indulgence and indecision come 67. I'd further argue that this was a huge factor in Van quitting. And who could blame him? You're offered a solo album carte blanch in your early twenties...why should you stick around on a project going nowhere taking Mike's crap and watching Brian spiral out of control?

OK, so after all this we're back to worrying about who's "fault" it was and "Mike's crap"?

Seriously man, take the stick out of your a$$. All I've contributed to this thread specifically, my balanced assessments of Mike...and you call me out for some one off comment I make intended to represent VDP's point of view? You...are a frustrating person sometimes.

I know that! But what I mean to imply is that maybe if we watch our language, how we word things, and maybe provide more detail than "Mike's crap" and not leap to things like "you say it's VDP's fault?" ... these things won't blow up like they do..... I know how I put it is irritating to read, but please at least think about it.

I didn't jump to conclussions. I conceded I may have misread and offered my 'rebuttal' to what I thought guitarfool was implying in a civil, intelligent manner. "Taking Mike's Crap" may not be historically true, but in VDP's perspective (which I was illustrating) that was the situation.

If you care about watching language to avoid blow ups you might want to learn to let things go. I feel I've been very fair in my assessment of what happened, my posts are pretty articulate and thought out if I say so myself...but I feel like if I'm not 100% on your same train of thought you react either aggressively or dismissively. Just letting you know.

Learning to let things go just might be the final, takeaway lesson from threads like this!

And Mujan, c'mon, you and I both know the same assessment has been made of you... I an certainly guilty as charged, but my point of trying not to use terms like "Mike's crap" (intending to paint someone asking what lyrics mean as an example of their "crap") I stand behind. It is simply inflammatory. Besides, we know VDP would have put the feeling into far more eloquent wording anyhow.