The Beatle/Threetle reunion that almost was

[vintagemusic]

One last point on "Now And Then":  Does anyone else find it weird that given all the opportunities that Yoko Ono has had since the reunion sessions to release the original Lennon demo of "Now And Then" officially that it still remains unheard by the general public?  I mean think about it: "Lennon Anthology", the 2001-2005 reissues, "Lennon Signature" all contained several unreleased Lennon demos yet none of these packages included "Now And Then".

Ono did sanction use of the song in 2005 musicial "Lennon" (along with another at that time unreleased Lennon demo "India India").  "India India" was subsequently released on "Lennon Signature" in 2010, "Now And Then" was not.  

I guess I'm wondering if there is a reason why "Now And Then" has yet to appear on any John Lennon archival package?  It's obvious that Yoko Ono has affection for the song given the fact she donated it to the reunion sessions project as well as sanctioning it for use in the 2005 musical.  I wonder if it is being held back because Ono knows there are bigger plans in the works for this particular song and doesn't want to damage it's potential commercial appeal by officially issuing the demo beforehand?

Yes that is interesting John. Yoko certainly could have issued the demo, as she has so many other Lennon demo's

Another interesting thing John, there have been many major stories in the press, regarding Now And Then over
the last several years, about it being finished, or it's planned release. Stories which recieved a lot of worldwide
attention.

Neither Apple, EMI, Yoko, the Beatles, have ever contradicted or denied any of those stories. However when other
stories were false and were garnering press and attention, the Beatles and or their record companies were quick
to debunk the stories. Not with Now And Then, not once. They have not disputed one word in the press about plans
for the song, additional recording, or anything else pertaining to it.


Lewishon could probably offer some information, oddly he seems to be part of the whitewash, or perhaps he wants to wait until
2020 when the third volume of his Beatles biography comes out.

[JohnMill]

One last point on "Now And Then":  Does anyone else find it weird that given all the opportunities that Yoko Ono has had since the reunion sessions to release the original Lennon demo of "Now And Then" officially that it still remains unheard by the general public?  I mean think about it: "Lennon Anthology", the 2001-2005 reissues, "Lennon Signature" all contained several unreleased Lennon demos yet none of these packages included "Now And Then".

Ono did sanction use of the song in 2005 musicial "Lennon" (along with another at that time unreleased Lennon demo "India India").  "India India" was subsequently released on "Lennon Signature" in 2010, "Now And Then" was not.  

I guess I'm wondering if there is a reason why "Now And Then" has yet to appear on any John Lennon archival package?  It's obvious that Yoko Ono has affection for the song given the fact she donated it to the reunion sessions project as well as sanctioning it for use in the 2005 musical.  I wonder if it is being held back because Ono knows there are bigger plans in the works for this particular song and doesn't want to damage it's potential commercial appeal by officially issuing the demo beforehand?

Yes that is interesting John. Yoko certainly could have issued the demo, as she has so many other Lennon demo's

Another interesting thing John, there have been many major stories in the press, regarding Now And Then over
the last several years, about it being finished, or it's planned release. Stories which recieved a lot of worldwide
attention.

Neither Apple, EMI, Yoko, the Beatles, have ever contradicted or denied any of those stories. However when other
stories were false and were garnering press and attention, the Beatles and or their record companies were quick
to debunk the stories. Not with Now And Then, not once. They have not disputed one word in the press about plans
for the song, additional recording, or anything else pertaining to it.


Lewishon could probably offer some information, oddly he seems to be part of the whitewash, or perhaps he wants to wait until
2020 when the third volume of his Beatles biography comes out.

Well my feeling is Mark Lewisohn is going to error on the side of caution when it comes to matters like this in the future.  I believe he actually got his hand slapped pretty hard around a decade ago for allegedly allowing fellow author Mark Hertsgaard to listen to some Beatles multi-track tapes as Hertsgaard was preparing a book of his own on The Beatles.  This apparently didn't go down well with Camp Beatle and Lewisohn was booted off the "Lennon Anthology" project which he was originally supposed to head up instead of Rob Stevens because of this alleged indiscretion. 

So as I said I think he's going to error on the side of caution.

[Mikie]

There has been a reissue of the Ed Sullivan episodes that The Beatles did, and it gives you the option of watching the complete original episodes as they aired(complete with commercials), or you can just watch the portions with The Beatles.

Thanks for the info, Jay. Around 2004 I picked up a DVD (boot) that has all of the Ed Sullivan shows accessed by one graphic menu. I haven't even played the 2010 release yet, which I forgot I even had!

[vintagemusic]

Something seems to be happening in camp Beatle.

All kinds of Youtube stuff, has been deleted by EMI. In the last 48 hours. Also
WOGBLOG, a well known respected Beatle blogger and researcher, said that
EMI is frantic trying to come up with something new for the Beatles 50Th Anniversary
later this year, as the first single "Love Me Do" turns fifty.

Sadly I can't connect any of these swift, stealthy, movements in camp Beatle with any
of this unreleased material. It could simply be The refurbished Mystery Tour movie release
or some new greatest hits album. Or who knows.

But whenever the Beatles are preparing a new release, there is always the chance that finally
Carnival of Light, Now and Then, and the highly coveted remaining unreleased tracks are coming
out.

Sure I am excited (somewhat) about the prospect of A cleaned up Mystery Tour Movie, or Let it Be (unlikely)
or any number of possible projects. But something including these last songs we have never heard is
more exciting than any of the rest of it, at least to me. I've seen Magical Mystery Tour about 30 times
I have a copy already. A cleaner copy is nice but I view that as simply a technical upgrade, something
that should take place as a  matter of routine. Something I have never been able to hear before, now
that's exciting.

Anyway something seems to be afoot, and suddenly and recently. Anyone with some info, please chime in.

[vintagemusic]

Something seems to be happening in camp Beatle.

All kinds of Youtube stuff, has been deleted by EMI. In the last 48 hours. Also
WOGBLOG, a well known respected Beatle blogger and researcher, said that
EMI is frantic trying to come up with something new for the Beatles 50Th Anniversary
later this year, as the first single "Love Me Do" turns fifty.

Sadly I can't connect any of these swift, stealthy, movements in camp Beatle with any
of this unreleased material. It could simply be The refurbished Mystery Tour movie release
or some new greatest hits album. Or who knows.

But whenever the Beatles are preparing a new release, there is always the chance that finally
Carnival of Light, Now and Then, and the highly coveted remaining unreleased tracks are coming
out.

Sure I am excited (somewhat) about the prospect of A cleaned up Mystery Tour Movie, or Let it Be (unlikely)
or any number of possible projects. But something including these last songs we have never heard is
more exciting than any of the rest of it, at least to me. I've seen Magical Mystery Tour about 30 times
I have a copy already. A cleaner copy is nice but I view that as simply a technical upgrade, something
that should take place as a  matter of routine. Something I have never been able to hear before, now
that's exciting.

Anyway something seems to be afoot, and suddenly and recently. Anyone with some info, please chime in.

I can't think of anything more dramatic as the Beatles recordings and fame turn fifty, than to finally release
the last remaining unknown "new" Beatles songs. In some way. Anything else pales by comparison, because
whatever it is, we have already seen and heard it, and probably have some type of copy in our collections already.

[JohnMill]

A few years back an author by the name of Richie Unterberger authored a book entitled "The Unreleased Beatles".  In my opinion it is easily one of the best books ever written on the band and in the last few pages or so he gives his opinion on whether or not there could be any forthcoming archival releases from The Beatles.  He basically has the same viewpoint that I do about this which is pretty pessimistic although optimistic that in the distant future all of this stuff will be available via the internet.  To clarify what I mean by distant future, I mean after Paul, Ringo, Yoko Ono and Olivia Harrison pass and "the brand" is handed down to the next generation.

That being said it's worth pointing out as far as releases pertaining to the music, The Beatles have basically hit the bottom of the well if they don't intend to issue archival material.  Unterberger's book was written prior to the 2009 remasters and the subsequent reissue of the "Red", "Blue" and "1" albums using the remasters.  Honestly with the exception of DVD and Blu-Ray releases of "Magical Mystery Tour" and "Let It Be", there is really nothing left to be reissued by Camp Beatle that isn't already out there on the market.

So in my opinion they are kind of in a "where do we go from here" type scenario.  They have their rarities compilations ("Anthology 1-3"), remastered catalog from 2009, remastered hits catalog and they even went through a period around a decade ago where they actually tried to improve arguably the two weakest albums in their catalog by reissuing them in different formats ("Yellow Submarine" & "Let It Be").  Heck they've even issued a couple of outside the box projects such as "Love" and "Rock Band".  I guess they could consider a complete remixing of the entire catalog similar to what Yoko Ono did to Lennon's catalog around a decade ago but I'm not sure that is even something that would even be considered for The Beatles.  It's probably also too close to the issue of the remasters to flood the market with a remixed version of the catalog anytime soon.

Again there are a myriad of issues that might be blocking any further archival releases by The Beatles, most of which we covered here.  From the "brand issue", diminishing sales of all the archival issues after "Anthology 1" and a viable commercial format to get this music to the fans.  That being said I think if anything speaks in favor of The Beatles opening up their archives once again is the fact that aside from those two DVDs there is really nothing left for them to remaster/reissue.  It's really all out there now.

Edit: Oops I forgot they also reissued "The Capitol Records" a few years back as well even though that particular series was never completed.  The reason being allegedly again was the diminishing sales issue.

[vintagemusic]

I don't know about all that John. McCartney presumably went through the effort and expense to
record onto and finish Now And Then, McCartney stated publicly in 2008 he wanted the song to
come out, and that it would come out. Carnival of Light I am talking about. He worked on Now and
then, but has only spoken in general terms about its release, Carnival, he specifically talked about
releasing it soon,

Some guy writes a book and contradicts what McCartney himself said about Carnival of Light.
So who would know better, the former Beatle making the public statement or this author?

Also the beatles remasters were a miniority view online also, "oh they are never coming" and
all that, of course they did come.

In a huge coincidence, Universal (which now owns EMI) is selling a "NEW" George Harrison collection
of rarities or unknown songs, demos, whatever it is, listed on Amazon right now, for a release date of
May first.

[JohnMill]

I don't know about all that John. McCartney presumably went through the effort and expense to
record onto and finish Now And Then, McCartney stated publicly in 2008 he wanted the song to
come out, and that it would come out. Carnival of Light I am talking about. He worked on Now and
then, but has only spoken in general terms about its release, Carnival, he specifically talked about
releasing it soon,

Some guy writes a book and contradicts what McCartney himself said about Carnival of Light.
So who would know better, the former Beatle making the public statement or this author?

Also the beatles remasters were a miniority view online also, "oh they are never coming" and
all that, of course they did come.

In a huge coincidence, Universal (which now owns EMI) is selling a "NEW" George Harrison collection
of rarities or unknown songs, demos, whatever it is, listed on Amazon right now, for a release date of
May first.

I'd actually go with the author personally because McCartney's vote isn't the only one that matters.  I have little doubt that McCartney is in favor of future archival releases (heck he even tried to get "Carnival Of Light" on "Anthology 2") but he needs to secure votes from the three other parties in order to get any Beatles archival material on the market.  That is why I remain pessimistic about the prospect of any archival releases in the short term.

Also the fact that EMI is trying to shop a reissue of "Love Me Do" again to me speaks of the direction where they are headed and it's not the direction that will lead to them opening up their archives anytime soon.  I can see reissues similar to what came out for Record Store Day last year with the reissues of Ticket To Ride/Yes It Is, Eleanor Rigby/Yellow Submarine, Hey Jude/Revolution & Something/Come Together 45s continuing to appear over the next several years but I guess we'll see.

For what it's worth that Harrison rarities set is already out in the UK and has been for quite sometime now.  It was bundled with the deluxe blu-tray edition of the Scorsese documentary but is going to be a separate issue once the documentary hits US shelves in May.

[vintagemusic]

I don't know about all that John. McCartney presumably went through the effort and expense to
record onto and finish Now And Then, McCartney stated publicly in 2008 he wanted the song to
come out, and that it would come out. Carnival of Light I am talking about. He worked on Now and
then, but has only spoken in general terms about its release, Carnival, he specifically talked about
releasing it soon,

Some guy writes a book and contradicts what McCartney himself said about Carnival of Light.
So who would know better, the former Beatle making the public statement or this author?

Also the Beatles remasters were a minority view on line also, "oh they are never coming" and
all that, of course they did come.

In a huge coincidence, Universal (which now owns EMI) is selling a "NEW" George Harrison collection
of rarities or unknown songs, demos, whatever it is, listed on Amazon right now, for a release date of
May first.

I'd actually go with the author personally because McCartney's vote isn't the only one that matters.  I have little doubt that McCartney is in favor of future archival releases (heck he even tried to get "Carnival Of Light" on "Anthology 2") but he needs to secure votes from the three other parties in order to get any Beatles archival material on the market.  That is why I remain pessimistic about the prospect of any archival releases in the short term.

Also the fact that EMI is trying to shop a reissue of "Love Me Do" again to me speaks of the direction where they are headed and it's not the direction that will lead to them opening up their archives anytime soon.  I can see reissues similar to what came out for Record Store Day last year with the reissues of Ticket To Ride/Yes It Is, Eleanor Rigby/Yellow Submarine, Hey Jude/Revolution & Something/Come Together 45s continuing to appear over the next several years but I guess we'll see.

For what it's worth that Harrison rarities set is already out in the UK and has been for quite sometime now.  It was bundled with the deluxe blu-tray edition of the Scorsese documentary but is going to be a separate issue once the documentary hits US shelves in May.


Most people online who involve themselves in these Beatle, and classic rock threads agree with your view, and agree with the author.
The same was true before the Beatle remasters came out as well. People in the majority right until the moment of the announcement
were saying it would never happen.

Also EMI Is not shopping LOVE ME DO, they are looking for a way to release something to celebrate the fiftieth anniversary of Love Me Do
big difference.

I am not including you in the following remark John, but I think a lot of people on line interested in the Beatles, audiophiles, collectors
various people, are actually invested in trying to prevent the issue of more archival tracks. To prove themselves right, and for whatever
other purpose, because they believe they know what's best for the Beatles recorded legacy in the public market[place or something.

The author may well be right, and I myself have to go with Paul McCartney, he possibly has the most clout  of any board member at Apple
and what you are saying, is one of the other three voting members are using their right of veto, against these releases in a perpetual
manner, without the public being aware of it. All he would have to do, is tell the public who was blocking the release, and that person would
become the new Yoko Ono dragon lady in public perception, and rightly so I might add.

It's always possible this stuff will be bootlegged somehow, by someone who believes the public has a right to know. It's possible
McCartney will overcome the objections of anyone who has thus far vetoed the release. It's possible if the public finds out anyone
excersising a veto would change their mind, to avoid being hated and boycotted by the Beatles fans.

I hope for that John, If say Olivia Harrison or Jeff Jones or Yoko Ono  or the estate of Neil Aspinall or some other party is
blocking the release of Carnival of Light and Now and Then, I hope we can make that information public, so that person
is known as the one keeping cool beatles songs from the public. Maybe it's Dhani Harrison, he seems to have an ego like
he was a Beatle when of course, he is just a guy who inherited a half a billion dollars from a Beatle., and basically can't give his
own bands records away, because almost no one on the planet wants to sit and listen to what he came up with. Maybe his
way of getting back is telling his ageing widowed mother not to release any more archival material. Who the heck knows, billionaires
do weird things, disconnected from the desires, needs and wants or ordinary people. It could turn and change on a dime, for all we
know the beatles 50th anniversary, has been planned for several years as the time to release archival material.


In fact I will go one further, I was told  in the year prior to the remasters, and just after, that plans existed within
EMI to form some sort of new release some sort of new album that would contain Now and then and other archival
tracks, so I know about the same time that guy was writing his book, there were people making at least preliminary plans
to do just the opposite.

Maybe its' as simple as Olivia Harrison excersised a veto or some other Beatle, and they are to twofaced to even admit, and
play dumb and act like they don't know what people are talking about.

Or maybe there is no veto, and the stuff is coming in the next couple years. Maybe with a limited supply of unreleased songs
in the vault, they are simply taking awhile to release them in some big huge project.

I certainly hope this author, you respect is wrong, Unterberger you say? There are many similar authors, SPizer, Lewishon,
Badman, they all make a living selling books on the Beatles, they do research and pour their heart into it. I don't think any
of them except Lewishon, know the first thing about the reunion period, or whats in the can, or what may be released, the only
one who probably knows is Lewishon, and he isin't saying peep. or Squat

I hope you're incorrect Mr. Mill, because I wanna hear those songs. I am heartened by the fact McCartney took the time and trouble
and expense to conduct professional, expensive, and repeated recording sessions, with eyewitness's to finish Now and Then a few
years ago. Why on earth would the man do that if he knew there was a permanent veto blocking the songs, release surely he did it
in part so the public would get turned on by the last new Beatles single, what kind of a moron would block the release of the last new
Beatles songs in history, you would have to be a total narcissist to do that
[/uote]

[Awesoman]

Interesting stuff.  Thanks for posting, guys.  For those of you who would like to hear a little of "Now And Then", look no further to YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yYRWnzKow8

[vintagemusic]

Interesting stuff.  Thanks for posting, guys.  For those of you who would like to hear a little of "Now And Then", look no further to YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yYRWnzKow8

Yeah,, thanks for that link, you might all take note of the fact, there is no BUZZING SOUND, ruining the track, making it impossible
to work with, one of the fake stories perpetrated by the Beatles, Jeff Lynne etc etc. Who knows maybe at one time it was true.
But for years now, obviously, the persisitent "Buzz on the track story" clearly holds no water.

Now possibly, that guy Fred Seaman, Lennon's personal assistant, who went to jail for stealing a bunch of Lennon's tapes
and diaries., some of that stuff wasn't recovered for years, so  who knows maybe in 1994 when Yoko handed over a cassette
down about three or four generations, maybe it was true then. But anyway, Now and Then sounds clean and workable now.

And as we know, McCartney has finished the track, with all four Beatles on it, according to at least two eye witness's who
were involved in the recording.


There is also several Fake Now and Then's where people overdubbed a big arrangement with drums, bass., keyboards guitars
etc etc, sadly, the people who made the "outfakes" didin't have the Beatles talent, and sound pretty bad to my ears, from an
arrangement and playing point of view.

The actual real Beatles version, probably has some new lyrics written and sung by McCartney, and some heavy editing of
the songs structure to keep the good bits. and get rid of some of the bad parts, make the structure more coherent, and add
some verses against those Lennon chorus parts, there are several bits, that I guess could be called a Bridge, and probably
that was edited and dropped in the right spot.  


Anyway I really hope we get to hear that, other people have, why not us, and Carnival Of Light, I just think in my mind of a
McCartney version of Revolution 9, its probably not something you want to hear all the time, there are probably no hooks
proper lyrics, or even consistent melody, its a avante gard thing, but so what, we have Revolution #9 and Whats the New Mary Jane
we should have Carnival of Light too. As well as several other choice cuts that remain in the vault


By the way, on youtube, a large number of Beatle documentary type things have disappeared over the last 48-72 hours
at the insistence of EMI/ Universal record company.   SOmething is clearly afoot here.

Whether it has anything to do with some of these previously unreleased tracks who knows, but something is up..


Bear in mind one possible reason for not releasing archival tracks, was the demise of EMI records, and whether the Beatles might
get ownership back if it went belly up, but with the sale to Universal music, which is solvent, it seems they have ownership
as EMI used to, EMI only exists now as wholly owned subsidiary of Universal, maybe the beatles got a slightly better deal when
that ownership change took place, and certainly the Beatles hate EMI for the way they were treated and cheated, now that EMI
has bitten the dust, and ceased to exist as one of the major remaining record companies, maybe that shook something loose.
Certainly Universal  wants to get some of their money back after laying out all that money for EMI

Something is clearly afoot.

[hypehat]

You have a strange thought process, vintagemusic.

"Why, it must be Dhani Harrison blocking these archival releases that the record label aren't planning because no-one bought his EP.....'

[vintagemusic]

You have a strange thought process, vintagemusic.

"Why, it must be Dhani Harrison blocking these archival releases that the record label aren't planning because no-one bought his EP.....'

yeah I shouldn't have said that. I get very heated on this subject. I don't even know if Dhani Harrison gets a vote on the Apple
Board, technically there are four voting members, any one of the four can excersise a veto., The four votes are held by the two
surviving Beatles, and the two widows, Yoko and Olivia.

However, certain other people although they don't technically have a vote, they can lobby there position, Jeff Jones, Dhani Harrison
Other spouses or adult children, I don't know. I think Olivia Harrison, kind of a griefstricken ageing widow, has worked in partnership
with Dhani on the Harrison archives for some time. Dhani Harrison got the four Beatle votes to proceed with the whole Beatles
Rockband thing, instead of getting Bonus tracks as we might have, Dhani Harrison talked them into releasing a childrens game with
the remasters instead of the bonus tracks. Apparently they lost money, and don't want any more beatle rockband games, although
once collectors ripped through the security features, fans now have remixes on the entire Pepper, Rubber Soul and ABBey Road album
New mixes were prepared for the game, and if you know where to look, there are three entire albums remixed fresh, sounding very clean

So you know it could be true, McCartney isin't   blocking the archive tracks, doesn't seem to be Yoko., Hell she is the one who gave Now and Then
to them in the first place, she already gave it to them, she cant stop them, she already voted  yes. I doubt if it its Ringo holding it up the most logical
explanation, is an ageing Olivia Harrison, influenced byher son who is her partner in the Harrison archivess, maybe they are blocking the whole
thing. EMI rejected a Harrison box set of rarities some time ago, and Dhani Harrison was unhappy about it. Or so Harrison says.

No investigative journalist touches or gets near this subject, this was part of John Mills point.   We have a huge series of beatles recording sessions
in the 90's almost nothing is known about it, we found out about an addition song by accident, through that guy Hodgson, and now his comments
have disappeared from the web, like the Beatle secret police have excised it from the public.

Its all very James Bond and unsavory.. and we still don't know the facts. Somebody is trying awfully hard to keep us from talking about these Beatle rariteis
and it certainly isin't Paul McCartney, he is the one on our side trying to get it out, who is blocking it? It's not Yoko,. it's probably not Ringo, who does
that leave in your opinion?


the

[hypehat]

I think you're overestimating the efforts of Apple to release these things. From what we know, there isn't much to fill out a compilation after the Anthology in the same way that there is with The Beach Boys. We would have....

1. Helter Skelter (28 minute mix)
2. Revolution (Long booted take)
3. Carnival Of Light
4. Now & Then (if it actually is in anything approaching a releasable condition)
5. er...
6. See what I mean?

In terms of releasing the 90's sessions, I could find it very easy to believe that the surviving Beatles are not fussed or feel a major, pressing need to get them out - If George didn't feel the third track was good enough to work up to a finished standard, well I can respect his decision and I'm sure that Olivia (who has his stake, not Dhani) is respecting his decision. As do Paul, Yoko and Ringo.

In terms of Beatles Rock Band, I find it very hard to believe that could actually have lost them any money, although it did not sell as well as other Rock Band games. In terms of what it means for the legacy, I don't think it's harmful at all. It's their music packaged for a new audience and given a respectable cartoon treatment (which isn't a bad thing - Yellow Submarine, right?) and is ultimately not very significant. If you want to specifically blame Dhani for it, go ahead.

We fans have the awful feeling that we're entitled to everything, is all. If Paul, Yoko, Olivia and Ringo don't feel like releasing what they consider to be substandard material, that's ok with me.

[anazgnos]

There is also the Jackie Lomax Sour Milk Sea... they can pull Harrisons demo vocal from Esher, and adapt it with protools to fit the Lomax backing track with Ringo and McCartney and Clapton

Purple Chick already did exactly that.  It's in their expanded White Album set that came out 6 or 7 years ago.  It sounds great, actually.

[Mikie]

Purple Chick did extended versions of ALL of the Beatle albums, including 'Get Back' and more.  They're really good.

[pixletwin]

Purple Chick did extended versions of ALL of the Beatle albums, including 'Get Back' and more.  They're really good.

They really are. I just acquired them as well and I am currently LOVING the expanded Sgt. Pepper.

[vintagemusic]

I think you're overestimating the efforts of Apple to release these things. From what we know, there isn't much to fill out a compilation after the Anthology in the same way that there is with The Beach Boys. We would have....

1. Helter Skelter (28 minute mix)
2. Revolution (Long booted take)
3. Carnival Of Light
4. Now & Then (if it actually is in anything approaching a releasable condition)
5. er...
6. See what I mean?

In terms of releasing the 90's sessions, I could find it very easy to believe that the surviving Beatles are not fussed or feel a major, pressing need to get them out - If George didn't feel the third track was good enough to work up to a finished standard, well I can respect his decision and I'm sure that Olivia (who has his stake, not Dhani) is respecting his decision. As do Paul, Yoko and Ringo.

In terms of Beatles Rock Band, I find it very hard to believe that could actually have lost them any money, although it did not sell as well as other Rock Band games. In terms of what it means for the legacy, I don't think it's harmful at all. It's their music packaged for a new audience and given a respectable cartoon treatment (which isn't a bad thing - Yellow Submarine, right?) and is ultimately not very significant. If you want to specifically blame Dhani for it, go ahead.

We fans have the awful feeling that we're entitled to everything, is all. If Paul, Yoko, Olivia and Ringo don't feel like releasing what they consider to be substandard material, that's ok with me.

I don't think you read what I wrote friend, What I said was, Paul McCartney has been working hard  "to release" the archival material, not prevent it.
I said someone else must be trying to block the release over McCartney's objections.

As for you short list of what's available to release, there is a lot more than your brief list to choose from.

1- The white album demo's virtually an entire acoustic demo unplugged version of the album recorded at Harrison's house
prior to the sessions proper

2- The Christmas album, this may be one of the most entertaining parts of the entire unreleased archive

3- Christmas Time is here again, a music and singing mix only, not marred by spoken word dialogue.

4- All For Love a 1995 recording by Paul George and Ringo written by     McCartney Harrison

5- The live Henley on Thames Jam, several hours worth of live jamming playing dozens of songs recorded by Jeff Lynne on 2 inch 24 track tape
as briefly seen in the Beatle anthology film

6- Sour Milk Sea new mix using the multitracks and HArrisons guide vocal or outfake mix using the beatles demo and the Lomax backing track

7- An alternate version of Love You Too on acoustic guitar with melodic vocals by George And Paul, commonly referred to as "granny smith"

8- A recording by george, paul and ringo at the final I me Mine session in early 1970, where the band recorded a version of Peggy Sue Got Married on
multitrack tape with Harrison singing lead


9- a composite take of the Beatles version of All Things Must Pass

10 a take of Lennon singing McCartney's early song " I Lost My Little Girl" at the Twickenham sessions

11 Early dick james demos such as Bad To Me,  I'm In Love, and the reported 66 McCartney demo of "Woman" given to Peter and Gordon, as well
as another early Acetate in Peter Asher's possesion.

12 A totally different and unrelated recording of Fixing a Hole

13  Now and Then, (finished Beatles version)

14 Carnival of Light

15 Revolution take 20

16 Beatles long version of Dig It


That's not even a complete list, but that's my favorite stuff I want to hear, and clearly, its a little more lengthy that you indicate with
your'e short list Hypehat, I just listed several hours worth of recordings, that could certainly be edited down to one disc.
there is plenty there, I didin't even get into..

[hypehat]

Several of the White Album Esher demos form Anthology 3, correct? If there was enough in The Beatles vault to justify bootleg series style releases, that'd be a great period to focus on. I'd love the christmas releases in an official release, too. Those crack me up, especially the 1967 one.

IDK, in my opinion, if a Beatles archival release came out with that sort of tracklisting, I reckon a lot of people would be miffed. We are also not sure of the quality of several of the things you mention, like the River Jam or several alternate versions - a lot of this would have come up in the process for the Anthology series and found wanting, with good reason or otherwise. And given the paucity of 'unique' material on the Anthology, that says something. Us hardcore lot also seem to get miffed at a lot of the things you suggest - touching up or composite takes constructed after the fact, such as And Your Bird Can Sing from Anthology 2?

Has Paul been trying so hard? I mean, he talks about Carnival of Light whenever he has the occasional ambient Fireman project coming up, but I haven't heard him going on about it all the time. And his efforts are trained elsewhere. It's a lot of speculation on our part, we can't possibly know what the hell goes on in Apple HQ nowadays.


Also, don't leave the board, man 

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Agreed. Don't. You think you know everything about your favorite band and then you read a thread like this. I've been on a Beatle kick for days now. I just put together a make-shift version of the "Love Songs" compilation album from the 70s on my iPod. Keep up the good work!

[JohnMill]

With all due respect this isn't a matter of entitlement.  For most hardcore Beatles fans anyhow.  Most of us are resigned to the fact that there is a vast chasm between where we think the brand should be heading and where it actually is right now.  That being said we also recognize that there seems to be a great deal of negativity espoused by several people in Camp Beatle in regards to any future archival releases and this attitude has existed even before the release of the "Anthology" albums.  Here for your perusal are some selected quotations followed by my own brief analysis:


- 1990 - When asked about interest in releasing Beatles archival material: "Well the difficult question is like, every bit of what?  You mean all the takes we didn't like?  That's what people seem to want.  It doesn't make much sense to me.  I mean I think you should say for the rabid collector, okay maybe you've got to have it all.  But personally I wouldn't be interested in it" ~ Paul McCartney

- 1990 - "If you start making the alternate takes available, in ten years people may not know which was the finished take and which wasn't.  I rather avoid the confusion" ~ Paul McCartney

- 1990 - "We always felt that what came out is what we wanted out.  That was the musician in us.  We weren't really interested in the avid fan who wants anything.  I think we're moving more along those lines now, because some of the "Take 2s" would be really interesting" ~ Ringo Starr to "Musician" magazine.

- 3/93 - When asked about the prospects about unreleased material that still lay inside the vaults at Abbey Road Studios: "I've listened to all the tapes.  There are one or two interesting variations, but otherwise it's all junk.  Couldn't possibly release it." ~ George Martin

- 11/93 - Regarding potentially releasing Beatles archival material as part of the upcoming "Anthology" project: "Everything like that would be available.  We are going to put everything that I consider to be valid from every source, including The Beatles' own private collections, demos they made..." ~ George Martin

- 1996: "After I had joked that after "Volume 3" (Anthology), anything else should be called "Scraping The Barrel", George Martin said, 'Yeah we'd have to put a government health warning on it!'" ~ George Harrison to "Billboard" magazine

- 3/06 - Regarding the prospect of future archival releases: "(I can't) think of anything that was of any value that wasn't put out" ~ Geoff Emerick to Richie Unterberger in "Record Collector"
=========================
I don't think it's entitlement at all on the part of the collector to find any (or all) of these statements to be highly inaccurate and at times insulting.  Also called into question is the capability and qualifications of those involved in assessing the value of what remains in the archives as at times they don't seem to have a complete grasp as to the vast trove of material that still exists.

To make things simple aside from the lack of knowledge on the part of the individuals that I quoted above to what remains in the vault, what this really comes down to is the intrinsic value of the archival material versus it's commercial appeal.  If we assume that all that Camp Beatle is concerned about is the commercial appeal of what is left in the vault then we can begin to understand their negative comments more easily as even I would agree that what is left in the vault would hold little value to anyone outside of the hardcore collector.

That being said it is absolutely absurd for anyone (including those I quoted above) to make the assumption that everything that remains in the vault is of low standard or of low quality.  To suggest that merely plays upon the ignorance of those who don't know any better.

So being that we have established that this is a matter of preference on the part of those who hold the keys to the archives rather than anything particularly toxic about the material itself, it basically takes us back to what I've been referencing since the start of this debate.  Camp Beatle is out of touch with how artists are marketing their archives to collectors these days.  They have an extremely myopic and negative view about what remains in their archives which is why I believe any future archival releases will have to wait until the aforementioned are no longer in control.  

Again this is not a matter of entitlement but merely something that The Beatles collector's circuit apparently has to deal with everyday.

[anazgnos]

The Beatles just did not leave their great stuff on the cutting room floor.  People really are just getting worked up over the few remaining dribs and drabs at this point.  I'd love to hear that stuff, but unlike, say, the Beach Boys, it's not as though there are entire, unheard, finished, great original songs in the vault.  We're talking a noise collage, some unfinished demos, some stuff that could possibly have been patched up separately at a later date...

They seem to have handled their back catalog and archival material really well, and for the rest of it they have the most efficient, well-trained army of bootleggers in the world.

[vintagemusic]

John Mill as always, you are so knowledgeable, reasonable and articulate.

Besides getting enjoyment out of talking about Beatle "rarities" I hope to
learn something, and even more to sway the public opinion, hopefully so some
of this stuff is released. That's my goal, I'd like to hear it.

As a legal matter, certainly the unreleased material is private property, I or the
public have no right to force the Beatles to release it, but people can change their
minds! As the Beatles did when they finally released the anthology.

Honestly when I learned there were a couple more reunion tracks, and when I realized
there were a couple more vintage sixties tracks like Carnival of Light, and Sour Milk Sea
I have been on a mission to get that stuff released through public awareness.

There is as you said, the purist camp, that hates Free As A Bird and Real Love, the purists that
hate editing pieces together to create a whole take, such as was done with One After 909 on
anthology.

There are the people who just want to hear endless alternate takes of well known Beatle songs.
There are the people who want to hear the Live stuff, incredibly, there is no defining Beatles live
album, incredible as that seems. Granted they weren't a jam band, but I agree there should be one
definitive CD of the Beatles live, Shea Stadium or Hollywood Bowl or whatever.

There are literally hundreds of   badly recorded live songs from the Let it Be?twickenham sessions, but
sadly most of them have bad fidelity and bad performance. With a few exceptions.

I like a few of the alternate takes, some of the Anthology and Love alternate Strawberry Fields stuff
is great, but generally I don't care much about 11 extra takes of Day Tripper or Taxman or whatever.

I am very interested in the handful of remaining unreleased songs we never heard, namely Now and then
Carnival Of Light and Sour Milk Sea, as well as All For Love, if it exists in releasable condition.

If I was kind for a day, I would issue the following as different albums, or projects. A compilation of all
the Beatles Promotional rock videos. as a stand alone video.

I would issue probably Shea Stadium as a BLu Ray and as a live album.

I would issue a double or triple album of all the Beatles alternate takes to well known songs..

I would issue the best of the Let it Be jams... tidied up with modern technology and creating whole performances
by editing pieces of different takes together. There must be fifteen takes of All Things Must Pass, I would use every
technical gizmo in the world to create on nice performance with good fidelity, and do the same for hopefully a dozen
other songs. or two dozen from the Twickenham sessions.

I would issue the Beatles Christmas album, maybe with additional outtakes or skits, like some of Lennon's and Ringo's
Lucy from Littletown kind of stuff.

I would be interested in a new Beatle animated film, along the lines of Yellow Submarine but totally different, using
actors for the dialogue or hopefully, using the Beatles actual dialogue from the Christmas skits, other skits, interviews
Lennon's poetry readings and so on,

Most important, I would create an album including Now and Then, Free As A Bird, Carnival Of light, all unreleased songs
that were never on Past Masters or a proper Beatles album, and revive the Beatles "Sessions" album, it would be perhaps
somewere around 20-25 songs, if you had the Beatles regular albums, and the past masters, and this new album, you
would have all the Beatles songs from the studio.

Also I would issue the white album demos,  as an unplugged album, and I would see if there were enough early Demos like
Bad To me to issue as an album of early demos.


If all that stuff wasn't feasible. I would then say, release all that stuff as bonus tracks on the corresponding albums
when they remix them. Now and Then would go on Anthology, Carnival of Light would go on Sgt Pepper. Sour Milk Sea
and Not Guilty would go on the White album, etc etc.


For some reason I can't fathom, most Beatle collectors like us, disagree with me, and want alternate takes, live stuff and
new mixes, more than they want Carnival of Light and Now and then.

I think the biggest surefire triple platinum album, would be a revived, remixed sessions,  with Now and Then, Carnival of Light
Sour Milk Sea, All For Love,  Free As A Bird, Real Love added to the original fifteen songs, plus a new video for one or two of
the new songs, I think that would go big... Ladies And Gentleman, the last new Beatles songs in history, in pristine studio
quality......

 John as far as McCartney and the other Beatle people making contradictory statements that's true, but McCartney has spoken in favor
of both Carnival of Light and Now and then, and spoken of "two" new Beatles songs that might rear their ugly head,


I Love to talk shop on this, so far as my staying on this board, I was insulted by several people today, and I feel kind of unwelcome,
so I don't know if I'll be around here, but if not, I'm sure we'll talk again on some of the other websites.

The Beatles are free to change their minds, I hope we see all this stuff real soon, I am certain we will see some of it.


We haven't even talked about what might be in the archives of McCartney and Harrison, I suspect there might be an impromptu
George Paul and Ringo recording from Friar Park, near the end of George Harrisons life. The evidence is thin, and we may never
know, but hopefully McCartney and the Harrisons will open those solo archives also.


Sometimes I wonder if all this unreleased stuff, is because McCartney was a little rude and thoughtless to Harrison
in the sixties, and the resentment of that carries over to this very day with his heirs. Lord I hope not.

OK keep posting, The Beatles can release all that stuff anytime they want, certainly they don't need the money,
maybe there are opinionated mandarins working at Apple, who feel it is their duty to control the Beatles recorded
archives, and those employees, hold the view that this stuff shouldn't come out and maybe the Beatles themselves
don't even know their employees hold that viewpoint. Mandarins in the Apple!!  It's good karma to hear the rest of
the Beatles music, look how positive the Beach Boys Smile Sessions has been with the critics and the public and for
making money! Fifty years! for the Beatles this November, I say it's high time we hear the archives!

[vintagemusic]

The Beatles just did not leave their great stuff on the cutting room floor.  People really are just getting worked up over the few remaining dribs and drabs at this point.  I'd love to hear that stuff, but unlike, say, the Beach Boys, it's not as though there are entire, unheard, finished, great original songs in the vault.  We're talking a noise collage, some unfinished demos, some stuff that could possibly have been patched up separately at a later date...

They seem to have handled their back catalog and archival material really well, and for the rest of it they have the most efficient, well-trained army of bootleggers in the world.

Your'e a sharp guy, you're right, even so, it's the Beatles, there is no lost great album like Smile, it's just like you said, except there is
more stuff, than you seem to be aware of, but yes its all hodge podge, a possible live album, the White album demo;s which is pretty
comprehensive, two more reunion songs, McCartneys version of revolution nine, Sour Milk Sea, which is actually very cool, maybe as good
as Glass Onion or Savoy Truffle, something along those lines, Several hours of live recording between, Paul Ringo and George, as seen very
briefly in the film,. ( there is several hours of that jam)   Some of the Let it Be stuff could be patched up.


It;s worth a little more than fifty bucks in a neighborhood  pawn shop y friend,! Two more reunion songs OH MY GOD< two more songs
comparable to Free As A bird and Real Love,

But you are right, there is no Sgt Pepper album or  six White album songs, or half a Hard Day's night sitting there.

Still enough to be concerned about though. Some people love those alternate takes, don't know why, who cares about say six different
renditions of Happiness is a Warm Gun, but people do.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

There's that studio chatter on the Think For Yourself vocal sessions that has been circulating for a while. I love that - especially unedited. Does much stuff like that circulate or was it rare that they kept the tape rolling like that?