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The Stephen Desper Thread
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Topic: The Stephen Desper Thread (Read 728946 times)
Joshilyn Hoisington
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Aeijtzsche
Re: The Stephen Desper Thread
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Reply #975 on:
April 12, 2009, 02:37:59 PM »
I have "Temples of Sound" and it is a great book, I love the pictures, but: there's not much about technical information, and there's lots of errors. Like, the pictures of Brian in the booth are from the CBS/Columbia studio, not Western, which the whole chapter is supposed to be about, and it's not like there's a lack of pictures of Brian in Western's booth.
Nonetheless, they're still great pix even if they're not labeled right.
Yeah, echo and reverb is still such an interesting subject. We've talked about it at length on here plenty, but I'm still trying to figure it all out. To me the latest mystery is, when Brian and Chuck were recording to three track in the heyday, were they able to use three separate chambers for each track? I would presume so, otherwise the reverb should just have come back on a mono return. Also, i wonder if it was true, as I've heard, that there were hard phone-lines connecting all the echo chambers in town so empty ones could be used.
You would think it would be easier to get my head around 40 year old technology than it has been.
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Stephen W. Desper
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Re: The Stephen Desper Thread
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Reply #976 on:
April 12, 2009, 03:32:44 PM »
Quote from: Sam_BFC on March 29, 2009, 12:28:59 PM
Stephen I wonder if you could provide any details on how you worked with reverb when you recorded with the BBs? Did you generally record dry than add effects from a plate/chamber etc??
COMMENT TO SAM_BFC
This topic is well covered in my book. If you don't have a copy, it will also be covered in the re-issue+ that I am now working on.
Generally, recorded echo/reverb with the instrumentation or vocals if it was part of the "sound." Recorded dry if the reverb was used as a spatial embellishment
.
~SWD
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Stephen W. Desper
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Re: The Stephen Desper Thread
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Reply #977 on:
April 12, 2009, 03:43:40 PM »
Quote from: aeijtzsche on April 12, 2009, 02:37:59 PM
I have "Temples of Sound" and it is a great book, I love the pictures.
You would think it would be easier to get my head around 40 year old technology than it has been.
COMMENT TO AEITJZSCHE:
Found a few photos I thought would be of intererest, but the new format on this website is different than the old one and I have not figured out how to move images from the Internet to this thread. Can you help?
~swd
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Jason
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Re: The Stephen Desper Thread
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Reply #978 on:
April 12, 2009, 03:44:57 PM »
Mr. Desper, what are your recollections of working with Dennis in the recording studios during 1970-71 when he was attempting a solo release? There's a famous comment attributed to you, that Dennis had "90% of it 90% done." As we have learned through the meticulous research of Alan Boyd and your own input, Dennis was all over the place in the recording studio. What was it like to work with Dennis at this time, which is commonly regarded as the apex of his creativity?
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Stephen W. Desper
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Re: The Stephen Desper Thread
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Reply #979 on:
April 12, 2009, 04:01:28 PM »
Quote from: hypehat on April 11, 2009, 07:22:44 AM
I was wondering how much of Brian's 'Ol' Man River' experiments you recall? How much of it is in the vaults/and any chance of more seeing the light of day?
Thanks!
COMMENT TO HYPERHAT:
I remember recording OMR from time to time. It was a song Brian worked on all the time. I assume all of the "work tracks" are in the vault, but since they are "work tracks" the advent of their release will be some time in the future. You see Brian was very interested in vocal arrangement and this song lent itself to experimentation with different vocal blends. Remember that the human voice is unique in that it can sing chords that, when played on a piano, sound un-harmonic. But, when sang, the sounds combine into something beautiful. Even singing two adjacent notes can sound like music, whereas when played on a polyphonic instrument will sound dissonant. So although he would play the parts on the keys, he would hear what they could sound like in his mind's ear. He would turn to his group to bring those sounds to life. Sometimes that life was absolutely an outstanding blend that could transport you to another time and place.
~swd
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Last Edit: April 13, 2009, 09:37:13 AM by Stephen W. Desper
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Joshilyn Hoisington
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Re: The Stephen Desper Thread
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Reply #980 on:
April 12, 2009, 05:20:41 PM »
Steve, if you copy and paste the URL of the photo into the message, highlight the URL in the message, and then click on the little square up above the smiley faces that looks like a little picture frame, it should work, unless Chuck has turned that off?
Test:
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Joshilyn Hoisington
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Re: The Stephen Desper Thread
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Reply #981 on:
April 12, 2009, 05:21:25 PM »
Yep, that still works.
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GLarson432
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Re: The Stephen Desper Thread
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Reply #982 on:
April 12, 2009, 07:09:15 PM »
I remember recording OMR from time to time. It was a song Brian worked on all the time. I assume all of the "work tracks" are in the vault, but since they are "work tracks" the advent of their release will be some time in the future. You see Brian was very interested in vocal arrangement and this song lent itself to experimentation with different vocal blends. Remember that the human voice is unique in that it can sing chords that, when played on a piano, sound un-harmonic. But, when sang, the sounds combine into something beautiful. Even singing two adjacent notes can sound like music, whereas when played on a polyphonic instrument will sound dissonant. So although he would play the parts on the keys, he would hear what they could sound like in his mind's ear. He would turn to his group to bring those sounds to life. Sometimes that life was absolutely an outstanding blend that could transport you to another time and place. ~swd
I think that's the greatest, most straightforward and articulate statement I've ever read about Brian, Brian's musical mind and his musical 'process'. Thank you Stephen!
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hypehat
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Re: The Stephen Desper Thread
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Reply #983 on:
April 13, 2009, 08:12:50 AM »
Quote from: Stephen W. Desper on April 12, 2009, 04:01:28 PM
COMMENT TO HYPERSHAT:
I remember recording OMR from time to time. It was a song Brian worked on all the time. I assume all of the "work tracks" are in the vault, but since they are "work tracks" the advent of their release will be some time in the future. You see Brian was very interested in vocal arrangement and this song lent itself to experimentation with different vocal blends. Remember that the human voice is unique in that it can sing chords that, when played on a piano, sound un-harmonic. But, when sang, the sounds combine into something beautiful. Even singing two adjacent notes can sound like music, whereas when played on a polyphonic instrument will sound dissonant. So although he would play the parts on the keys, he would hear what they could sound like in his mind's ear. He would turn to his group to bring those sounds to life. Sometimes that life was absolutely an outstanding blend that could transport you to another time and place.
~swd
Don't sit on the fence, we want to know what you really think...
Brian's brain back then was really something, wasn't it? and he had the singers to back him up. i mean, i'm relatively fresh into BB's obsession and a musician and his vocal arrangements are just mindblowing. There's nothing like it. That fragment on Hawthorne is just awe-inspiring, epsecially when the vocals slide up really high at 'don't say nothing'... Sorry to bug, but was what you heard more like the uptempo thing on the Friends twofer, or the slow Hawthorne cut?
Thanks for the lovely response!
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Quote from: ontor pertawst on October 06, 2012, 06:05:25 PM
All roads lead to Kokomo. Exhaustive research in time travel has conclusively proven that there is no alternate universe WITHOUT Kokomo. It would've happened regardless.
Quote from: Andrew G. Doe on May 15, 2012, 12:33:42 PM
What is this "life" thing you speak of ?
Quote from: Al Jardine
Syncopate it? In front of all these people?!
Stephen W. Desper
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Re: The Stephen Desper Thread
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Reply #984 on:
April 13, 2009, 09:32:10 AM »
Quote from: aeijtzsche on April 12, 2009, 05:21:25 PM
Yep, that still works.
COMMENT TO AEIJTZSCHE:
Thanks for the photo-insert instructions
I remember doing a few sessions in this room (Studio 1) at Western. When Studio 3 was booked we would do sweetening in Studio 1. Note the Altec A-7's over the window. Those were powered by MacIntosh Amps. The really big sessions (string or horn sections, OD) usually done at RCA, Columbia, Capital, or A&M, but this smaller room was right up there with them. Of course Brian, along with many others, preferred 3 to any room in town.
~swd
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Stephen W. Desper
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Re: The Stephen Desper Thread
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Reply #985 on:
April 13, 2009, 09:34:46 AM »
Quote from: hypehat on April 13, 2009, 08:12:50 AM
Quote from: Stephen W. Desper on April 12, 2009, 04:01:28 PM
COMMENT TO HYPERHAT:
I remember recording OMR from time to time. It was a song Brian worked on all the time. I assume all of the "work tracks" are in the vault, but since they are "work tracks" the advent of their release will be some time in the future. You see Brian was very interested in vocal arrangement and this song lent itself to experimentation with different vocal blends. Remember that the human voice is unique in that it can sing chords that, when played on a piano, sound un-harmonic. But, when sang, the sounds combine into something beautiful. Even singing two adjacent notes can sound like music, whereas when played on a polyphonic instrument will sound dissonant. So although he would play the parts on the keys, he would hear what they could sound like in his mind's ear. He would turn to his group to bring those sounds to life. Sometimes that life was absolutely an outstanding blend that could transport you to another time and place.
~swd
Don't sit on the fence, we want to know what you really think...
Brian's brain back then was really something, wasn't it? and he had the singers to back him up. i mean, i'm relatively fresh into BB's obsession and a musician and his vocal arrangements are just mindblowing. There's nothing like it. That fragment on Hawthorne is just awe-inspiring, epsecially when the vocals slide up really high at 'don't say nothing'... Sorry to bug, but was what you heard more like the uptempo thing on the Friends twofer, or the slow Hawthorne cut?
Thanks for the lovely response!
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Stephen W. Desper
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Re: The Stephen Desper Thread
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Reply #986 on:
April 13, 2009, 09:43:21 AM »
COMMENT TO HYPERHAT
. . . was what you heard more like the uptempo thing on the Friends twofer, or the slow Hawthorne cut?
Friends.
~swd
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Stephen W. Desper
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Re: The Stephen Desper Thread
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Reply #987 on:
April 13, 2009, 10:03:15 AM »
Quote from: Jason on April 12, 2009, 03:44:57 PM
Mr. Desper, what are your recollections of working with Dennis in the recording studios during 1970-71.
COMMENT TO JASON:
I'll be recollecting more on Dennis-in-the-studio in the second printing of my book. However I did comment quite a bit on Dennis in the first book.
Dennis was a cool guy and a real friend. Most of my work with Dennis was on a one-to-one bases at the home studio in the AM hours before the rest of the group arrived in the afternoon
.
~swd
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Joshilyn Hoisington
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Re: The Stephen Desper Thread
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Reply #988 on:
April 13, 2009, 10:43:29 AM »
Ah, that photo is part of a set from presumably the Smile vocal sessions. That set is great, I appreciate that they're in color. From Columbia Studios. They seemed to go with the C-12 there for vocals pretty often where Chuck seems to have favored U47s.
Did you work much at Columbia, Steve? It's harder to find info about the studios there, for some reason. Did you ever meet the guy who did most of the Boys vocal sessions there, Ralph Ballantin? He is impossible to find any info on.
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MBE
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Re: The Stephen Desper Thread
«
Reply #989 on:
April 13, 2009, 02:15:20 PM »
Quote from: Stephen W. Desper on April 13, 2009, 09:43:21 AM
COMMENT TO HYPERHAT
. . . was what you heard more like the uptempo thing on the Friends twofer, or the slow Hawthorne cut?
Friends.
~swd
I like the fast one myself, but both have superb vocals.
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hypehat
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Re: The Stephen Desper Thread
«
Reply #990 on:
April 14, 2009, 01:39:18 PM »
Quote from: Stephen W. Desper on April 13, 2009, 09:43:21 AM
COMMENT TO HYPERHAT
. . . was what you heard more like the uptempo thing on the Friends twofer, or the slow Hawthorne cut?
Friends.
~swd
Thanks!
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Quote from: ontor pertawst on October 06, 2012, 06:05:25 PM
All roads lead to Kokomo. Exhaustive research in time travel has conclusively proven that there is no alternate universe WITHOUT Kokomo. It would've happened regardless.
Quote from: Andrew G. Doe on May 15, 2012, 12:33:42 PM
What is this "life" thing you speak of ?
Quote from: Al Jardine
Syncopate it? In front of all these people?!
Stephen W. Desper
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Re: The Stephen Desper Thread
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Reply #991 on:
April 15, 2009, 09:29:41 AM »
Quote from: aeijtzsche on April 13, 2009, 10:43:29 AM
Ah, that photo is part of a set from presumably the Smile vocal sessions. That set is great, I appreciate that they're in color. From Columbia Studios. They seemed to go with the C-12 there for vocals pretty often where Chuck seems to have favored U47s.
Did you work much at Columbia, Steve? It's harder to find info about the studios there, for some reason. Did you ever meet the guy who did most of the Boys vocal sessions there, Ralph Ballantin? He is impossible to find any info on.
COMMENT TO AEITZSCHE:
I only did a few sessions at Columbia. I was there to watch and learn about Brian and his production style. I believe the engineer at those vocal sessions was Ralph Ballantin. He was straightforward in his approach. No experimentation. Just sing and record. Columbia had great rooms and clean equipment, but you could not touch any controls. You’ve heard the stories about Brian’s hand being slapped away from the console for overreach. That caused Brian to move over to Goldstar. But my big problem with Columbia was their patch bay. It had so many fail-safe circuits built into it that it was impossible to plug an output into an input of the same device . . . so how are you to create tape echo or slap echo? One day I was generating a high-frequency distortion by inserting the output of one 1176 into the input of another 1176 so as to overdrive the front end of the second limiter, thus giving a sawtooth waveform to the (in this case) guitar lead. Soon the head of the engineering department was in the studio disconnecting my tandem arrangement. He was saying that I was distorting the signal and his equipment was not supposed to be used that way. He said I was causing his equipment to overload and that was not how it was designed to be used. He went on to accuse me of breaking his equipment. This in-the-box thinking was what restricted any creative recording at Columbia, and certainly limited the out-of-the-box type thinking and application, which Brian wanted to explore. This was what drove Brian over to Goldstar. The independent producer was welcome at such independent studios. Rock & Roll requires an out-of-the-box mentality, so no matter the history Columbia studios had in its past, made them history in a few short years. The other big problem with Columbia, RCA, Capital, and other union studios was their persistent adherence to union rules about five-minute breaks every hour. When the second hand of the studio clock reached “12” the union engineers would close the master fader, thus ending the session. What a shame! Can you imagine how Brian, or any artist for that matter, would feel if during their lead they would be cut-off in mid-sentence because the clock came to “12” position? Or, if you were laying down a once-in-a-lifetime lead riff and the recorder was cut-off mid-vamp. Damn! I’ve heard stories of Columbia engineers closing the fader when only a few bars were left to record in string sweetening sessions, thus costing the producer an hour of overtime for all the musicians and the studio. This in-the-box thinking spelled the demise of Columbia in the out-of-the-box recording world of Rock & Roll. You might say that what the unions did to the studio business in this country is now catching up with the automotive industry of this country.
The mic in the Dennis photo does not look like an AKG C-12 to me. Here is the C-12. It’s cylinder shape is consistent including the mash.
The one Dennis is standing next to has a bulge like an AKG D-24. The mic on the boom may have just been incidental to him standing there when the photo was taken. I’ve never seen him record with a hat on.
I used mostly the Neumann U67 or M49 with the RCA Type 77-D for my vocal sessions, or an AKG C-24 for stereo vocal sessions.
Whether U67, U47, C12, or M49, most of these mics sound about the same when you hear the tracks out of the studio and mixed well into a production. All handle EQ and compression about the same. It seems that when you get beyond a certain quality, the differences become so slight that, to a production engineer, it is more about what is available at the time of recording then anything. Orchestral recording is a different matter.
By all means, the bible of microphones is found at THE COUTANT MICROPHONE SUITE site.
Microphone Suite >>> [
http://www.coutant.org/contents.html
]
Much detail about many, many, many microphones can be had at this site.
After looking at all the microphones, check out the many photos of radio station equipment and installations. Then look at the photos of various recording artists including Brian and the Beach Boys at Capitol. The last entry will download a five megabyte MPEG sound file where you can hear how each microphone handles voice sounds. Quite interesting. You can spend hours on this site. The Coutant Microphone Suite, recommended.
Good Listening, ~Stephen W. Desper
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Joshilyn Hoisington
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Re: The Stephen Desper Thread
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Reply #992 on:
April 15, 2009, 10:16:45 AM »
That is a great story about Columbia and a good description in general of the different types of recording environments one could expect at that time. That's the kind of thing that would go well in my future hypothetical book.
This guy is presumably Ralph?
http://cache3.asset-cache.net/xc/73988884.jpg?v=1&c=NewsMakerk=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF19318A31BE3974C4F0550AC90DDDF9F34A0
And you can see the infamous patch bay behind Brian there.
Here's another view of the patch bay. Lots of options, considering the lack of effects processors and stuff.
http://cache3.asset-cache.net/xc/73988885.jpg?v=1&c=NewsMaker&k=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF19318A31BE3974C4F054DC2765CBA8D397B
I still think that's a C-12, though--not that I've spent that much time with one except through glass at the Hollywood Guitar Center, but I don't think the Dennis picture gives the right perspective of the size of the mic. Here's a shot from the same studio:
http://cache4.asset-cache.net/xc/74253595.jpg?v=1&c=NewsMaker&k=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF1935A6DEC864C2BC5D9D29DBD8E7E7CE962
You can see it matches the shape of a C-12, not the telefunken model, which is fatter. The end is some kind of windscreen. I've seen the same windscreen over a U47 on a Byrds session, and in the Pet Sounds boxset there's a picture of Brian singing into the same mic with the windscreen off.
«
Last Edit: April 15, 2009, 02:02:47 PM by aeijtzsche
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Stephen W. Desper
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Re: The Stephen Desper Thread
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Reply #993 on:
April 15, 2009, 11:38:43 AM »
Quote from: aeijtzsche on April 15, 2009, 10:16:45 AM
This guy is presumably Ralph?
And you can see the infamous patch bay behind Brian there.
COMMENT: Yes, I think it is Ralph (but my memory is very vague). You see the guy with his hand resting on the patch bay console? If I recall correctly, that was the "patcher." His union job was to plug the patches into the bay were needed or told by the first engineer. There was also an assistant engineer (second engineer) and a recording engineer, who ran the recorder and playbacks. Note the Ampex 300-4 four track in the "recording room." Money, money, money. It took all those people to run the control room. There was even an editing engineer who's job was to splice the tape. Poor Brian -- how longingly he is looking at that knob Ralph is touching.
Did not get the photo of the patch bay.
I further agree that the previous photo with Dennis is skewing the perspective of the mic. It seems much smaller than it should if an AKG C-12. Given that, it could be a C-12. The perspective with the group photo showing them around the C-12 gives a proper perspective and the relative size of the mic.
What did you think of the
Microphone Suite
website?
~swd
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Stephen W. Desper
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Re: The Stephen Desper Thread
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Reply #994 on:
April 15, 2009, 12:01:56 PM »
COMMENT TO AEIJTZSCHE:
On furhter viewing, the mic (C-12) in the Dennis photo has a blue band (tape, I suppose) near the connector. Looking at the group photo in black & white shows that C-12 with a band near the connector, also. It could well be the same mic in both photos.
~swd
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Joshilyn Hoisington
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Re: The Stephen Desper Thread
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Reply #995 on:
April 15, 2009, 02:07:55 PM »
Quote
What did you think of the Microphone Suite website?
Oh, that site is a wonderful resource, I've happened upon it before--and lost hours looking at all the info. It's nice that somebody put all of that information up for people to learn from.
Quote
how longingly he is looking at that knob Ralph is touching.
That's a great example of what you were talking about with the strict union guidelines, isn't it?
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Stephen W. Desper
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Re: The Stephen Desper Thread
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Reply #996 on:
April 15, 2009, 02:21:00 PM »
Quote from: aeijtzsche on April 15, 2009, 02:07:55 PM
Quote
That's a great example of what you were talking about with the strict union guidelines, isn't it?
COMMENT TO AEIJTZSCHE:
When Brian wanted to "touch knobs" in MY control room, I not only moved my hand, I got out of my seat and insisted that he sit down, do as he wished, and ask me for help if he needed it. Then I observed, and learned!
~swd
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sockittome
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Re: The Stephen Desper Thread
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Reply #997 on:
April 15, 2009, 04:59:24 PM »
Mr. Desper, thank you so much for that Microphone Suite link. Now I'm going to be lost for days!
I've got a humble studio in my home, with a pretty simple setup, but when my budget allows me to invest in some upgrades, I will most likely start with the mics. I've been eyeballing the Neumanns at my local Guitar Center.
«
Last Edit: April 15, 2009, 05:00:15 PM by sockittome
»
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Stephen W. Desper
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Re: The Stephen Desper Thread
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Reply #998 on:
April 15, 2009, 07:51:29 PM »
Quote from: sockittome on April 15, 2009, 04:59:24 PM
Mr. Desper, thank you so much for that Microphone Suite link. Now I'm going to be lost for days!
I've got a humble studio in my home, with a pretty simple setup, but when my budget allows me to invest in some upgrades, I will most likely start with the mics. I've been eyeballing the Neumanns at my local Guitar Center.
COMMENT TO SOCKITTOME:
There is no such thing as a damaged condenser microphone, with respect to the signal it produces. They either work, or they don't. Therefore, suggest you keep taps on what is listed on ebay, etc. A few good buys.
Neumann (268 offerings) >>> [
http://shop.ebay.com/items/__Neumann-microphones?_trkparms=72%253A570%257C66%253A2%257C65%253A12%257C39%253A1&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_pgn=1
]
AKG (521 offerings) >>> [
http://shop.ebay.com/?_from=R40&_trksid=p3907.m38.l1313&_nkw=AKG+Microphone&_sacat=See-All-Categories
]
GOOGLE search for used microphones >>> [
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=used+neumann+microphone+equipment&btnG=Search
]
~swd
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Sam_BFC
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Re: The Stephen Desper Thread
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Reply #999 on:
April 16, 2009, 07:17:44 AM »
I have read that moisture on the capsule can have an adverse effect on the sound of a mic...?
(Thanks as always for indulging us SWD!
)
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"..be cautious, don't get your hopes up, look over your shoulder because heartbreak and darkness are always ready to pounce"
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