"I Was Made to Love Her" on Wild Honey and Carol Kaye's claims

[Tristero]

I don't get the Jim Gordon reference...

I just thought that it was funny that he kept talking about how Denny's drumming got overlooked in favor of Hal Blaine, but then he didn't mention Gordon's contributions either, which kind of gets back to the point you made earlier.  It seems like some of these musicians (Kaye and Blaine, in particular) have been more successful at preserving their legacy while others get left behind, not because they were inferior players, but due to circumstance, bad luck, etc.

That does make sense, I just wasn't sure but wanted to clarify! Another factor is that some of them were better at the art of self-promotion than others, and may have been bigger personalities than others who may have been more quiet.

 I don't see Jon trying to gloss over Jim Gordon's contributions; all I read is he wants Denny to get the credit he deserves for HIS OWN drumming, which is being lost to Hal.  Jim's credits are an entirely different matter, and while he certainly deserves them, if they ultimately get washed away, I'd ventuire its on account of his actions in the other matter. Just or not, "for every action there's a reaction"

I was just kind of kidding there.  Hell, up until recently, I wasn't even aware of Gordon's contributions with the Beach Boys and was surprised at how prominently he featured in the SMiLE sessions.  I just assumed it was Hal there.

[Roger Ryan]

I don't get the Jim Gordon reference...

I just thought that it was funny that he kept talking about how Denny's drumming got overlooked in favor of Hal Blaine, but then he didn't mention Gordon's contributions either, which kind of gets back to the point you made earlier.  It seems like some of these musicians (Kaye and Blaine, in particular) have been more successful at preserving their legacy while others get left behind, not because they were inferior players, but due to circumstance, bad luck, etc.

That does make sense, I just wasn't sure but wanted to clarify! Another factor is that some of them were better at the art of self-promotion than others, and may have been bigger personalities than others who may have been more quiet.

 I don't see Jon trying to gloss over Jim Gordon's contributions; all I read is he wants Denny to get the credit he deserves for HIS OWN drumming, which is being lost to Hal.  Jim's credits are an entirely different matter, and while he certainly deserves them, if they ultimately get washed away, I'd ventuire its on account of his actions in the other matter. Just or not, "for every action there's a reaction"

I was just kind of kidding there.  Hell, up until recently, I wasn't even aware of Gordon's contributions with the Beach Boys and was surprised at how prominently he featured in the SMiLE sessions.  I just assumed it was Hal there.

Same here - I was surprised to hear his name mentioned so often during the sessions.

Apart from his notoriety for matricide, I'd say Jim Gordon is mostly recognizable (to music fans) as a member of Derek & The Dominoes, especially given that he wrote the coda to one of the most famous "Classic Rock" tracks of all time. Beyond that, he is known as a session drummer from his 70s work when his credit actually appeared on record sleeves. Given that his work with the Beach Boys was uncredited, I'm not surprised that his contributions are overlooked.

[juggler]

Apart from his notoriety for matricide, I'd say Jim Gordon is mostly recognizable (to music fans) as a member of Derek & The Dominoes, especially given that he wrote the coda to one of the most famous "Classic Rock" tracks of all time. Beyond that, he is known as a session drummer from his 70s work when his credit actually appeared on record sleeves. Given that his work with the Beach Boys was uncredited, I'm not surprised that his contributions are overlooked.

Believe it or not (but totally in keeping with the theme of this thread!), due credit for the 'Layla' coda is itself in dispute.   Rita Coolidge has claimed that Jim Gordon (her ex-boyfriend at the time) actually lifted that piano piece from one of her compositions... and left her off the credits.  I've read that Bobby Whitlock has backed up Rita's claim.

[Shady]

Thread of the year, just read the whole thing

Somebody e-mail the link to Carol

[Mikie]

If you like the thread so much then YOU e-mail it to her, Shady!

[Heysaboda]

Thanks...but don't get me started on the Monkees. Hugest crime in progress is the fact they are not in the Rock Hall of Fame. They should have gone in 20 years ago. The quality of their best stuff ranks with anybody. They were genius on so many levels. And they did it all in two years!

Ditto from me too!!

[jonathan anderle]

Jim Gordon's work with Delaney and Bonnie (and Friends) was just sublime.

I believe that's Jim with Brian in "BW24" on here: http://i458.photobucket.com/albums/qq306/Dstevenb/ContactSheet-001.jpg

[guitarfool2002]

Jim Gordon's work with Delaney and Bonnie (and Friends) was just sublime.

I believe that's Jim with Brian in "BW24" on here: http://i458.photobucket.com/albums/qq306/Dstevenb/ContactSheet-001.jpg

Agreed! That's indeed Jim with the firehat in that Smile photo. His voice is heard on several prominent Smile session tapes that were out even before the box set.

For me, one of his greatest performances is Mason Williams' "Classical Gas". I heard that hundreds of times, always blown away by the drummer, then I found out it was Jim after Hal apparently couldn't make that date and he passed it on to Jim. The way he drives that band, and those drum fills...incredible for a relatively young drummer. That is a terrific performance.

[The Heartical Don]

A note on Jim Gordon: I think one should try to separate the art from the artist where possible. We know about Phil Spector, we know about Joe Meek, and there are others. I don't know about the details of Gordon's case, but IIRC he was in a fit of psychosis when he did what he did.

In theory, all of us can fall prey to such an illness. That alone should make us pretty modest in our judgment.

My admiration and love for Spector's work has not diminished one iota after the Clarkson case. And I play 'I Hear A New World' by Joe Meek with pleasure.

On the other hand: should a convicted serial killer release a superb album out of jail... I don't think I'd buy it, or listen. And as far as I know, very, very few people play records by Gary Glitter anymore (which goes for radio stations anyway).

These are matters of pure feeling and instinct, not suitable for rationalizing or categorizing, IMHO.

[DonnyL]

Manson was an excellent songwriter.

[Mike's Beard]

And he's not a serial killer. 

[RP50]

Anyone here watch Jeopardy?  They had a 'Wrecking Crew' category a couple nights ago.  The BBs, CK and Hal B. all made it into the questions.
http://www.j-archive.com/showgame.php?game_id=3770

Carol thinks because she played on the movie score sessions for Shaft , that she is on the hit single and soundtrack album. You hear Carol if you watch the movie, but the soundtrack album - including the single - was cut in Memphis with the Bar-Kays. And as far as Herb Alpert goes - I was once told never to bring up the name Ollie Mitchell around him or his admirers.

[anazgnos]

as far as Herb Alpert goes - I was once told never to bring up the name Ollie Mitchell around him or his admirers.

Is that related to how Herb Alpert always had 2 or 3 guys doubling (or tripling) up his horn parts when he played live?  It'd be funny if that were still a touchy subject somehow.

[guitarfool2002]

as far as Herb Alpert goes - I was once told never to bring up the name Ollie Mitchell around him or his admirers.

Is that related to how Herb Alpert always had 2 or 3 guys doubling (or tripling) up his horn parts when he played live?  It'd be funny if that were still a touchy subject somehow.

Please elaborate, I'm not familiar enough with Herb's fan base to know of this backstory. Are there people saying Ollie Mitchell was actually the "voice" of Herb's trumpet on TJB records? Not sure if I buy that any more than the Jamerson stories, but again I don't know anything about those claims until someone points me to the history.

One less controversial reason why they had multiple trumpet players playing live with the TJB was they had to replicate the "sound" of the TJB's doubled and tripled brass. Doubling and tripling those horn lines gave a killer-sounding chorusing effect and *that* was the signature sound, and that sound was more popular than i think many folks today would realize...that brass sound was actually ubiquitous in advertising, jingles, TV themes, etc. If it had been one trumpet playing live, they'd probably get similar complaints that some leveled at The Beach Boys in 66-67 when their live shows sounded thin compared to the fully-orchestrated (and double-tracked) recordings.

I'd seriously like to hear more about this story with Alpert.

[endofposts]

If you check out the source of the Herb/Ollie rumors, it turns out that a major source is none other than Carol Kaye. She did apparently play on some Alpert sessions, but I doubt she was there from start to finish.  I also don't think it would necessarily be a sore point to bring up to Herb that there were multiple trumpet players on those Tijuana Brass recordings, or that he had extra trumpeters in concert.  It's not like he hid the extra trumpeters behind curtains so you'd think they were all him.

[I. Spaceman]

If you check out the source of the Herb/Ollie rumors, it turns out that a major source is none other than Carol Kaye. She did apparently play on some Alpert sessions, but I doubt she was there from start to finish.  I also don't think it would necessarily be a sore point to bring up to Herb that there were multiple trumpet players on those Tijuana Brass recordings, or that he had extra trumpeters in concert.  It's not like he hid the extra trumpeters behind curtains so you'd think they were all him.

Carol simply has a problem with pretty much everyone who was actually credited as an artist on a record in the 1960's, and seeks to discredit them any way she can. She is a very, very nasty character, along with being an immense talent on various stringed instruments.

[endofposts]

I think it's more a case of "poisoning the well," as they called it in Logic 101 class.  If she can make the case that other people deserve credits that they didn't get and/or that people's memories were faulty after playing hundreds of sessions decades ago, then it makes her case for some of the tracks that she claims that much stronger.

[I. Spaceman]

She has claimed, several times and vociferously so, that NO US BAND in the 1960's played their own instruments in the studio. Including The Doors.

[runnersdialzero]

She has claimed, several times and vociferously so, that NO US BAND in the 1960's played their own instruments in the studio. Including The Doors.

I'm giggling. Violently giggling.

[hypehat]

GIS'ing "violent giggle" was not as productive as I had hoped, tbh.

[The Heartical Don]

And he's not a serial killer. 

Of course not. He was smoking pot in the attic when Fromme and co. did the dirty work. Manson never heard the White Album either.

On a more serious note: I guess we treated the topic well enough by now. Insights and opinions vary, but the reason for ms. Kaye's odd behaviour just eludes us. I think she's seriously harming herself, as well as others (those she insulted, and the wonderful musicians she denies having had to do with some of the finest of popular music). That is tragic.

Oh, one more thing (see my avatar): I find it hard to swallow that she'd not precisely know anymore about who played on truly great achievements from 45 years ago or thereabouts. Numerous sessions that did not go much further than just being tryouts? OK, granted. But major pieces of popular art that became great hits? No. Incroyable!

[guitarfool2002]

If you check out the source of the Herb/Ollie rumors, it turns out that a major source is none other than Carol Kaye. She did apparently play on some Alpert sessions, but I doubt she was there from start to finish.  I also don't think it would necessarily be a sore point to bring up to Herb that there were multiple trumpet players on those Tijuana Brass recordings, or that he had extra trumpeters in concert.  It's not like he hid the extra trumpeters behind curtains so you'd think they were all him.

And what I said in my post was that the multiple trumpeters were the crucial element of the TJB sound. If you were to send Herb out there alone on stage, or even do one take of him playing just his horn on those TJB record sessions, it wouldn't be the sound people bought those records and tickets to hear.

Maybe I'm missing it but if the claim is made that Herb didn't play at all on the records, I'd seriously question that on all counts and probably dismiss it as total nonsense. If the claim is that Herb doubled and tripled his trumpet parts for a reason other than to create the signature sound of the TJ Brass, which was the doubled and tripled brass leads, I'd also dismiss it as total nonsense.

When you had 4 tracks to work with in the mid 60's, and you wanted the sound of three trumpets playing in unison, you'd hire three trumpet players to play the part. Again, I still don't see the controversy.

[bgas]

If you check out the source of the Herb/Ollie rumors, it turns out that a major source is none other than Carol Kaye. She did apparently play on some Alpert sessions, but I doubt she was there from start to finish.  I also don't think it would necessarily be a sore point to bring up to Herb that there were multiple trumpet players on those Tijuana Brass recordings, or that he had extra trumpeters in concert.  It's not like he hid the extra trumpeters behind curtains so you'd think they were all him.

And what I said in my post was that the multiple trumpeters were the crucial element of the TJB sound. If you were to send Herb out there alone on stage, or even do one take of him playing just his horn on those TJB record sessions, it wouldn't be the sound people bought those records and tickets to hear.

Maybe I'm missing it but if the claim is made that Herb didn't play at all on the records, I'd seriously question that on all counts and probably dismiss it as total nonsense. If the claim is that Herb doubled and tripled his trumpet parts for a reason other than to create the signature sound of the TJ Brass, which was the doubled and tripled brass leads, I'd also dismiss it as total nonsense.

When you had 4 tracks to work with in the mid 60's, and you wanted the sound of three trumpets playing in unison, you'd hire three trumpet players to play the part. Again, I still don't see the controversy.

Quoting Carol Kaye from Spectropop, re Herb and Ollie( which I think shows where some bad blood might sneak in( Oh, Carol!):  

>>Subject:     Herb Alpert-Ventures
Sent:        12/29/18 2:43 am
Received:    01/05/99 12:05 am
From:        Carol Kaye, carolXXXXXXXXlink.net
To:          Spectropop List, spectrXXXXXXXXties.com

>recall reading somewhere that Herb Alpert sometimes used a
>different trumpet player on some of his peak era TJ Brass
>productions. Did you ever hear anything about that, Carol?

TRUE. We all knew it was Ollie Mitchell, fine #1 call trumpet man
who did the most technical Herb Alpert solos, and when I asked
Ollie (just before he moved back to Hawaii about 1996) "did you
do 'all' of Herb's recorded solos or just some of them Ollie" --
he answered "all, from the Lonely Bull on".

Now, I don't know if he literally meant "every single one" as we
all have a habit of saying "all" meaning "all the important ones",
so not sure if he meant "all" or "most" by that, but he sure
had that sound down pat.

Herb's a nice man, I don't want to take anything away from him,
but too many times, the instrumentalists had others doing their
solos for them. Herb's forte I think was in producing, and
there's no harm done, he did go on the road, but Roy Caton and
others were there to "beef" up the trumpet solos for sure on the
road. <<

Oh, and then found this reference( scroll to the last two posts, at the bottom): 
http://www.amcorner.com/forum/threads/not-herb.2726/page-2

[?]

Manson was an excellent songwriter.

Still is.  His recent stuff is really good.

[endofposts]

Did I miss something, or are there any actual "trumpet solos" on TB songs?  I don't think so.  Carol makes it sound like those gosh-darned solos just make those records.  What she points out about Herb's talents are what makes the records, not trumpet solos.