"I Was Made to Love Her" on Wild Honey and Carol Kaye's claims

[Sam_BFC]

And the upper harmonics of the bass parts may very well remain present anyway 

[Wirestone]

If Beach Boys fans haven't learned by this point to separate gorgeous work from the flawed humans who created it, they're the ones living in a fantasy world.

[Jon Stebbins]

It wouldn't be a problem if everyone would know that Kaye is living in a fantasy world and shouldn't always be taken too seriously. But unfortionately there are writers and journalists who don't do their homework and write her claims down as if they are the facts, so that history gets distorted and some people don't get the credit they deserve.

THIS is EXACTLY how you nail a point on a message board. Nice to see someone understands without clouding it with..."yeah but"...and..."I can see both sides"...etc... She is trusted by many as an expert on history, and she's not interested in knowing the truth. Its a really damaging combination.

[endofposts]

If Beach Boys fans haven't learned by this point to separate gorgeous work from the flawed humans who created it, they're the ones living in a fantasy world.

My problem with that philosophy is that I had actual interaction with Carol in the real world.  She played some mean bass but it's no excuse to be mean.

[Ed Roach]

THIS is EXACTLY how you nail a point on a message board. Nice to see someone understands without clouding it with..."yeah but"...and..."I can see both sides"...etc... She is trusted by many as an expert on history, and she's not interested in knowing the truth. Its a really damaging combination.

Well said, Jon.  I certainly remember how exhaustively you researched "The Real Beach Boy", and also remember the anguish on your face when some new facts would arise after it was published.  All the more reason why we're all looking forward to a new, expanded edition!

[Jon Stebbins]

THIS is EXACTLY how you nail a point on a message board. Nice to see someone understands without clouding it with..."yeah but"...and..."I can see both sides"...etc... She is trusted by many as an expert on history, and she's not interested in knowing the truth. Its a really damaging combination.

Well said, Jon.  I certainly remember how exhaustively you researched "The Real Beach Boy", and also remember the anguish on your face when some new facts would arise after it was published.  All the more reason why we're all looking forward to a new, expanded edition!

Thanks Man...you gave me the most help of anybody. But as you said, the longer we live, the more we learn that we didn't know before...and sometimes that includes finding out things that prove what we thought was true is wrong. Its an ever evolving process right? BTW...happy Dennis day to you, I know this day can be a tough one for you sometimes. And especially with the Larry thing thrown at our buddy too...I hope all is well with you. We gotta get together soon.

[Awesoman]

Carol Kaye wants to believe she played bass on everyone's tracks?  Fine.  Her living in her fantasy land don't bother me none.

It wouldn't be a problem if everyone would know that Kaye is living in a fantasy world and shouldn't always be taken too seriously. But unfortionately there are writers and journalists who don't do their homework and write her claims down as if they are the facts, so that history gets distorted and some people don't get the credit they deserve.

Writers and journalists *not* doing their homework???  What a revelation.  Don't you think we should direct the fault at them for not checking their facts?

[Jon Stebbins]

Writers and journalists *not* doing their homework???  What a revelation.  Don't you think we should direct the fault at them for not checking their facts?

The problem is that sometimes the best sources are considered the people who were there, and by using their discographies or bios, or by interviewing them writers think they are fact checking. There are probably dozens of sources, books, websites, wikipedia, documentaries, cd liners that credit Hal Blaine as being the drummer on I Get Around and Don't Worry Baby...but how many sources are there that credit Dennis Wilson? Well, my new book is one, there might be one or two more...but its like a 25 to 1 ratio. And guess what, if you listen to the session tape for Don't Worry Baby (which I only got a chance to because I actually found the lost multii-track tape)..its obvious that Dennis is the drummer on that session, you can hear him being talked to by Chuck Britz and Brian as they set levels and work out the intro arrangement. He's there, Hal's not...So I'm right, i did my research...but I'm probably in the minority for the rest of my life as a journalist who declares Dennis played on those songs and not Hal. And often when i point it out I get people asking me why am i disrespecting Hal? Or why do I think I know more than David Leaf? etc... etc... Its not an easy thing. Sometimes its like threading a needle. People like Craig Slowinski are doing a major service to the Beach Boys legacy, but he'll undoubtedly get tons of sh*t for pointing out that Carol Kaye did not play bass on the released version of Good Vibrations. The Wrecking Crew are so deified that even fact checking can get you on the wrong side of people.

[Mikie]

People like Craig Slowinski are doing a major service to the Beach Boys legacy, but he'll undoubtedly get tons of sh*t for pointing out that Carol Kaye did not play bass on the released version of Good Vibrations.

He sure will! And I'll be the first in line to give him sh*t about it if he does!

Forget Marie unfortunately has some real issues with Carol. You'd think a member of her own family did her a major unjustice, or that someone committed a serious felony on her. Marie has posted disparaging remarks about Carol multiple times in this public forum, airing out her grievances with Carol, milking it for all it's worth. It became boring reading after the first post. No skin off my butt! Some of us don't have a problem with Carol, and don't care much if she's off bass regarding her facts, whether it be intentional or otherwise. We'd prefer to look at the positive attributes of the woman and commend her for her achievements and talent regardless of her 'colored' personality. I'm one of those people who would take the time go to a book signing or seminar of hers, just like I'm going to make it to Brian's book signing this Tuesday. Same deal. I understand the 'Historian' perspective and the frustration in getting all the facts straight, and I'm not defending her for her supposed personal attacks, but she didn't piss me off, and I don't intend to take the low road and talk crap about her now like some of you guys jumping on the bandwagon.

[Wirestone]

If Beach Boys fans haven't learned by this point to separate gorgeous work from the flawed humans who created it, they're the ones living in a fantasy world.

My problem with that philosophy is that I had actual interaction with Carol in the real world.  She played some mean bass but it's no excuse to be mean.

Of course not. But my point is that the Beach Boys saga is filled with, to put it charitably, damaged and unpleasant people. At a certain point you have to accept that everyone is who they are and take the work for what it is. I mean, Jim Gordon murdered his mother -- something far worse than anything Carol Kaye has ever done -- and yet the coda to Layla is still a transcendent piece of music.

[endofposts]

People like Craig Slowinski are doing a major service to the Beach Boys legacy, but he'll undoubtedly get tons of sh*t for pointing out that Carol Kaye did not play bass on the released version of Good Vibrations.

He sure will! And I'll be the first in line to give him sh*t about it if he does!

Forget Marie unfortunately has some real issues with Carol. You'd think a member of her own family did her a major unjustice, or that someone committed a serious felony on her. Marie has posted disparaging remarks about Carol multiple times in this public forum, airing out her grievances with Carol, milking it for all it's worth. It became boring reading after the first post. No skin off my butt! Some of us don't have a problem with Carol, and don't care much if she's off bass regarding her facts, whether it be intentional or otherwise. We'd prefer to look at the positive attributes of the woman and commend her for her achievements and talent regardless of her 'colored' personality. I'm one of those people who would take the time go to a book signing or seminar of hers, just like I'm going to make it to Brian's book signing this Tuesday. Same deal. I understand the 'Historian' perspective and the frustration in getting all the facts straight, and I'm not defending her for her supposed personal attacks, but she didn't piss me off, and I don't intend to take the low road and talk crap about her now like some of you guys jumping on the bandwagon.

Mike, you have been reported to the moderator. 

[guitarfool2002]

If Beach Boys fans haven't learned by this point to separate gorgeous work from the flawed humans who created it, they're the ones living in a fantasy world.

My problem with that philosophy is that I had actual interaction with Carol in the real world.  She played some mean bass but it's no excuse to be mean.

Of course not. But my point is that the Beach Boys saga is filled with, to put it charitably, damaged and unpleasant people. At a certain point you have to accept that everyone is who they are and take the work for what it is. I mean, Jim Gordon murdered his mother -- something far worse than anything Carol Kaye has ever done -- and yet the coda to Layla is still a transcendent piece of music.

You mention Jim Gordon...in his case many folks, and I do mean many as in 98%, have simply erased his name from the history of rock drumming, apart from things like Layla which are impossible to ignore, and anytime you see another Layla article or reissue, you'll see photos of Jim. You can't sweep the image away.

So Jim paid and still pays a price beyond the legal and criminal aspects for what he had done, and that price is he is generally not mentioned in the lineage of the best studio musicians and best rock drummers, period.

I'm an amateur at doing what I do, solely because my work doesn't allow me the time necessary to do all the calling, leg-work, and detective work on the level of the historians. But I'm passionate about what I do and I love looking things up related to studios, session players, and music I love, like the Beach Boys. But in the past 2 years, I have gotten into looking at Jim Gordon's career, and it is just a damn shame that he's not getting mentioned at least next to LA fixtures Hal Blaine and Earl Palmer, and he was Hal's protege.

Even among drummers - professional drummers I know and talk to - his body of work isn't near as well-known. That Nilsson song from Goodfellas "Jump Into The Fire", when the helicopter is chasing Henry Hill around the city - that is Jim Gordon, and it's an incredible part. The g*ddamned drum sample from Apache that helped launch rap music into the mainstream and was sampled a ton of times - Jim Gordon. Mason Williams, "Classical Gas" - Jim Gordon, a young Jim at that. How many folks know those were Gordon, how many drummers know that, yet they can name the type of sticks Hal Blaine played on Be My Baby (kidding, just kidding...).

I'm just saying, the history books are what they are, but what standards do we apply to who gets a fair shake in those books? I'd say Jim Gordon hasn't gotten his due, and the morality debate enters into it when we consider whether his actions in later years should affect our perception of his *body of work*, no matter what those actions are or were. There is no right answer, but I'd say in Jim Gordon's case it would be worth considering his work as a drummer and musician on a separate sheet and put it into the historical context it deserves, because he was absolutely one of the best drummers in LA and among the best ever.

Again there is no right or wrong answer, but when should the history outweigh the events of later years?

[endofposts]

By the way Mke, I have not "milked this for all it's worth."  This is the first time I brought it up other than once before, perhaps. You must have problems of your own and a "sad case." as you your warped personal hero Carol would put it.

Why do I get the feeling that Carol herself is putting some of these people defending her up to it?  It wouldn't surprise me.  Funny how Mikie just up and attacks me out of nowhere, even though I posted a few posts back and he didn say a word before.  Carol people are nuts. Big deal, she sent you some picks and an autograph, she's a nasty woman by several people's witness, not just mine.

You can report this to the moderator, too, if you wish.   I don't care. 

[Jon Stebbins]

People like Craig Slowinski are doing a major service to the Beach Boys legacy, but he'll undoubtedly get tons of sh*t for pointing out that Carol Kaye did not play bass on the released version of Good Vibrations.

He sure will! And I'll be the first in line to give him sh*t about it if he does!

He already did Mikie...in the Smile box session notes. According to the research Craig did for Capitol/BRI she's not the bassist on the 1966 hit version of GVs. So fire away.

[Mikie]

Guess I missed that part. Who was it, Jon, Ray Pohlman?

Damn it!  After all these years of her saying she played on the released version and even playing her part of Good Vibrations on audio and video, she really didn't? Ooooohhhh, man, she's so deceiving! I think far less about Carol than I did before. I'm very disappointed in her now.   

[OneEar/OneEye]

Some of us don't have a problem with Carol, and don't care much if she's off bass regarding her facts, whether it be intentional or otherwise. We'd prefer to look at the positive attributes of the woman and commend her for her achievements and talent regardless of her 'colored' personality. I'm one of those people who would take the time go to a book signing or seminar of hers, just like I'm going to make it to Brian's book signing this Tuesday. Same deal. I understand the 'Historian' perspective and the frustration in getting all the facts straight, and I'm not defending her for her supposed personal attacks, but she didn't piss me off, and I don't intend to take the low road and talk crap about her now like some of you guys jumping on the bandwagon.

No one, that I have seen (including myself) is negating her talent, her contributions, or is trying to take away from that.  I know nothing of her being abusive to people because I haven't experienced that (thankfully), but what is at issue is her continued attempts (apparently in part successful ones) to claim credit for others work (specifically Jamerson), even i9n the face of being proven that this is not the case.  You SHOULD care about that.  It's wrong of her, and it goes way beyond simply being "wacky", or "mistaken" or whatever - and thing is, she doesn't need to do it BECAUSE she has so many incredible credits to her name already, she has so much to feel proud of and be respected for.   It's not right.

[hypehat]

Writers and journalists *not* doing their homework???  What a revelation.  Don't you think we should direct the fault at them for not checking their facts?

The problem is that sometimes the best sources are considered the people who were there, and by using their discographies or bios, or by interviewing them writers think they are fact checking. There are probably dozens of sources, books, websites, wikipedia, documentaries, cd liners that credit Hal Blaine as being the drummer on I Get Around and Don't Worry Baby...but how many sources are there that credit Dennis Wilson? Well, my new book is one, there might be one or two more...but its like a 25 to 1 ratio. And guess what, if you listen to the session tape for Don't Worry Baby (which I only got a chance to because I actually found the lost multii-track tape)..its obvious that Dennis is the drummer on that session, you can hear him being talked to by Chuck Britz and Brian as they set levels and work out the intro arrangement. He's there, Hal's not...So I'm right, i did my research...but I'm probably in the minority for the rest of my life as a journalist who declares Dennis played on those songs and not Hal. And often when i point it out I get people asking me why am i disrespecting Hal? Or why do I think I know more than David Leaf? etc... etc... Its not an easy thing. Sometimes its like threading a needle. People like Craig Slowinski are doing a major service to the Beach Boys legacy, but he'll undoubtedly get tons of sh*t for pointing out that Carol Kaye did not play bass on the released version of Good Vibrations. The Wrecking Crew are so deified that even fact checking can get you on the wrong side of people.

That's why I love hanging around here. Even though I don't really do much else than post nonsense, it's a real boon to be able to talk to the prominent historians and chroniclers of this band. There's always something new to learn.

[18thofMay]

I think your missing the point  Mikie!

[Jon Stebbins]

Guess I missed that part. Who was it, Jon, Ray Pohlman?

Damn it!  After all these years of her saying she played on the released version and even playing her part of Good Vibrations on audio and video, she really didn't? Ooooohhhh, man, she's so deceiving! I think far less about Carol than I did before. I'm very disappointed in her now.   

Craig's comments up this thread say...I wonder if she's seen my sessionography from the big SMiLE box yet, where I lay out exactly how many "Good Vibrations" sessions she played on...fact is, she played 12-string electric on the 4/9 Gold Star version (Ray Pohlman played the Fender bass on both the 2/17 and 4/9 sessions), Dano bass on the 5/24 Sunset Sound session (where Carl played Fender bass), and finally Fender bass on the 6/18 Western session.  That's it.  And NONE of those pieces made it to the final master edit.  So she's not on the single.  All of the Fender bass on the final, master single edit was played by Ray Pohlman, except for in the third bridge & chorus fade; the Fender bass
in those sections was played by Arthur Wright (a genuine Motown session alumnus).

So yeah... mainly Ray according to Craig. BTW...she was really nice to me too back in '99, until i mentioned Hal and the term "Wrecking Crew"...that didn't go down too well. She's a great musician with incredible credits that are real, and I'll always respect the awesome work she's done. Its a shame she's damaged herself with that short fuse and an inability to admit she's misremembered some things.

[bgas]

So yeah... mainly Ray according to Craig. BTW...she was really nice to me too back in '99, until i mentioned Hal and the term "Wrecking Crew"...that didn't go down too well. She's a great musician with incredible credits that are real, and I'll always respect the awesome work she's done. Its a shame she's damaged herself with that short fuse and an inability to admit she's misremembered some things.

Whoa, that's a classic there, Jon: "misremembered"

[Mikie]

I think your missing the point  Mikie!

Nope. I'm definitely not missing the point. I understand EVERYONE'S point here. How could I miss the point when I've seen Carol's name and this issue bandied about by AGD for the past 10 years on various message boards? It's no secret that Andrew and Carol have a mutual dislike for one another, and I think Andrew probably has a good reason not to like her in light of her attacking him (sometimes in public - yes I clearly remember it) and getting personal with him. And as far as I can see, that's his business. If she's not representing herself and her history accurately, that's for the Historians to determine, not myself. I just don't have a big problem anymore with whether she played bass on the Beach Boys or Stevie Wonder's version of "I Was Made To Love Her" or whether it was James Jamerson or Bruce Johnston or Ron Brown or Joe Phuckit or whoever.......I figured the issues AGD had with her happened about 10 years ago and it was water under the bridge. It continues to surface as subject matter foder on message boards, and there continues to be no love lost between them it seems. It continues to fester......I was unaware that Jon had issues with her during the research for his book(s)......but he's an author so I can understand why. Do you think Badman had issues with her? I doubt it. 'Course he wasn't/isn't as reputable as Stebbins or Doe anyway. How about Carlin? I don't know. Isn't there anything else productive to talk about that the masses can embrace here?

OK, now let's talk about the issue of slander on message boards. What are the rules? Is there a fine line or can we go all balls out here? If it's OK, then I can think of a couple of other people's names whom I'd like to bring to your attention.....  

[Andrew G. Doe]

I figured the issues AGD had with her happened about 10 years ago and it was water under the bridge.

Not so - she's kept up her attacks at me on her MB. Here's the latest, last week:

"note: if anyone in the UK says they "have copies of our Union Contracts, they're lying....this fellow named Doe is forever saying that, and he lies more than speaks the truth about our dates with Brian Wilson."

And I'm done being a (relative) gentleman about it. Difference is, I have proof on my side: I do have photocopies of AFM contracts, as well as Stephen McParland's excellent book. She should brush up on the libel laws. Might come in handy in the future.

[Jay]

I wonder what would happen if you were to post pictures of the AFM sheets on her website, or in an e-mail to her? She'd probably say you "altered" them. 

[Wirestone]

At least in the United States, if someone is a public figure, you can pretty much say however you feel about them. Carol is certainly a public figure, as is Andrew. (Although libel law in the U.K. has a lower bar than the U.S.; I'm not versed in the exact differences.) Issues can arise when you're actively defaming someone, which is different than just saying they're rotten or passing along damaging gossip which you have reason to believe is true.

In other words, nothing Andrew has said about Carol is off-limits, legally, based on my understanding of U.S. law, because it is basically entirely factual. Carol, on the other hand, may be crossing a line in one country or another because she seems to be interested in tearing down someone's reputation based on (what she probably knows are) falsehoods. Now, whether anyone has the time or interest to litigate it is another matter -- many cases of libel are ignored in the U.S. and U.K. because it's an incredibly tricky thing to handle in court.

[smile-holland]

OK, now let's talk about the issue of slander on message boards. What are the rules? Is there a fine line or can we go all balls out here? If it's OK, then I can think of a couple of other people's names whom I'd like to bring to your attention.....  

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,122.0.html

Nothing particular on slandering, but if one takes rules #2, 4 & 5 in consideration, one would understand that before going "all balls out", some reconsideration on how to put one's outings into words.

This is yet another example of a topic that starts on a general to be disputed statement by one specific person that slowly derails in a broader discussion in which several members are putting the discussion on the razor’ s edge. Personally, I understand where some of the responses come from, certainly if false accusations were made. I wouldn't know what I would do if I were in that position. I'd say now that I would try to show myself in the most dignified way possible, and not fall into the piffall that others did.

So the only advise I would give is to try to keep it cool. One negative response automatically provokes another one, and that certainly doesn't  contribute to a constructive discussion.