"I Was Made to Love Her" on Wild Honey and Carol Kaye's claims

[Andrew G. Doe]

Mea culpa - of course, that should be:

...

[Wirestone]

Mea culpa - of course, that should be:

...

Well, color me intrigued. Who told you? Darian?

[Andrew G. Doe]

Mea culpa - of course, that should be:

...

Well, color me intrigued. Who told you? Darian?

No - someone who would know. 

[18thofMay]

Hmmm it's a worry

[Mikie]

That interview was for the syndicated 20th Anniversary TV Special (1981, with lots of 1980 concert footage from Knebworth and DC).

Yes, that's the one. Been awhile since I saw it - amazing how memory fades in 30 years, isn't it? 

And no, it can't be corroborated b/c Glen's name is not on any of the "Good Vibrations" AFMs, nor is his voice on, or name referred to, on any of the session tapes.  Same for the rest of the SMiLE sessions.  If he did play on five "Good Vibrations" sessions, the tapes are missing from the vaults, the AFM sheets are missing from the Union and Capitol Records files, and they didn't make it to the final edit anyway.

Well, shoot! Did Glen exaggerate then? Is this also a case where a member of the Wrecking Crew claimed that he played on Good Vibrations and really didn't? Did he 'misremember'? Was he lying or did he have a selective memory? Did he really play on a cover version of Good Vibrations? Can he be forgiven for this misrepresentation of himself?

Please see posts about Tedesco, Blaine and Kaye above. 

Thanks, C-man.

[guitarfool2002]

I've already posted Tommy's reply to the issue, which he'd tweak probably depending on his audience, but think about it like this for a minute: You're *that* session guy who has a career in music spanning decades, you've played on hundreds of "hit" records, and you're traveling around meeting fans at various shows and clinics. Someone approaches you at one of those one-out-of-365 days a year and grabs your hand, saying something like "Hey man, I LOVE that guitar part you played on (...fill in song name here...), I learned that part, that was such an inspiration, thank you!" and all the other hyperbole that fans hurl at these musicians regularly. That's what fans do, I've done it and so has every musician I'm sure.

So that famous session player cannot remember playing that particular song, but in his mind thinks "perhaps I did play that?" because he knows he worked with the artist this fan is talking about, what does he say? Does he act polite to that obviously grateful fan and say "Thanks!", or because he may or may not have played it, does he say "Sir, I don't know what the hell you're talking about, I never played that song, etc..."

This is one way the inaccurate information spreads through the years and snowballs into where some of these cases are today. I'm not saying this is to justify someone insisting something isn't so in spite of factual proof, but let's cut a bit more slack than some might be willing to do when the case warrants it, because do we honestly think these session players can remember each and every day from 4 decades ago when a fan calls them on it?

Again, not to whitewash people who know the facts and insist something is so when it just ain't so, but there are reasons behind some of these issues.

And just as an experiment, with Christmas coming up, I challenge each of you to remember a specific date of December 23, two days before Christmas with all the hustle and bustle, choose a year: 2010, 2005, 1995, 1985, 1975, etc. Now remember something specific about that day in any of those years. Good luck!

[runnersdialzero]

I've already posted Tommy's reply to the issue, which he'd tweak probably depending on his audience, but think about it like this for a minute: You're *that* session guy who has a career in music spanning decades, you've played on hundreds of "hit" records, and you're traveling around meeting fans at various shows and clinics. Someone approaches you at one of those one-out-of-365 days a year and grabs your hand, saying something like "Hey man, I LOVE that guitar part you played on (...fill in song name here...), I learned that part, that was such an inspiration, thank you!" and all the other hyperbole that fans hurl at these musicians regularly. That's what fans do, I've done it and so has every musician I'm sure.

So that famous session player cannot remember playing that particular song, but in his mind thinks "perhaps I did play that?" because he knows he worked with the artist this fan is talking about, what does he say? Does he act polite to that obviously grateful fan and say "Thanks!", or because he may or may not have played it, does he say "Sir, I don't know what the hell you're talking about, I never played that song, etc..."

This is one way the inaccurate information spreads through the years and snowballs into where some of these cases are today. I'm not saying this is to justify someone insisting something isn't so in spite of factual proof, but let's cut a bit more slack than some might be willing to do when the case warrants it, because do we honestly think these session players can remember each and every day from 4 decades ago when a fan calls them on it?

The issue with this particular theory is that Carol claims to play on several tracks that she doesn't - not just one or two.

[guitarfool2002]

I've already posted Tommy's reply to the issue, which he'd tweak probably depending on his audience, but think about it like this for a minute: You're *that* session guy who has a career in music spanning decades, you've played on hundreds of "hit" records, and you're traveling around meeting fans at various shows and clinics. Someone approaches you at one of those one-out-of-365 days a year and grabs your hand, saying something like "Hey man, I LOVE that guitar part you played on (...fill in song name here...), I learned that part, that was such an inspiration, thank you!" and all the other hyperbole that fans hurl at these musicians regularly. That's what fans do, I've done it and so has every musician I'm sure.

So that famous session player cannot remember playing that particular song, but in his mind thinks "perhaps I did play that?" because he knows he worked with the artist this fan is talking about, what does he say? Does he act polite to that obviously grateful fan and say "Thanks!", or because he may or may not have played it, does he say "Sir, I don't know what the hell you're talking about, I never played that song, etc..."

This is one way the inaccurate information spreads through the years and snowballs into where some of these cases are today. I'm not saying this is to justify someone insisting something isn't so in spite of factual proof, but let's cut a bit more slack than some might be willing to do when the case warrants it, because do we honestly think these session players can remember each and every day from 4 decades ago when a fan calls them on it?

The issue with this particular theory is that Carol claims to play on several tracks that she doesn't - not just one or two.

This is specifically why I wrote the following, in case you didn't see it in my post: "I'm not saying this is to justify someone insisting something isn't so in spite of factual proof"

And this is definitely not about that specific case with Motown or whatever or any other specific case, but I don't want to see us impugn the words and memories of dozens of musicians who might take the time to have a conversation with a fan they never met before, if they happen to make a mistake. I've personally had it happen, both email and phone conversations with musicians, and I had to shrug some of it off. The bigger picture isn't about remembering exactly what happened February 19, 1965 at 2:37 PM at Gold Star in LA if someone takes the time to talk to a complete stranger and gets a fact or two wrong. That's the scenario I'm talking about, not the Motown stuff.

[guitarfool2002]

Or, narrowing it down even further than the December 23 example, try to remember *specific* details from 2 weeks ago today...what were you doing that Tuesday? Try that without the aid of email records, journals, calendars, memos, etc. It's damn near impossible unless you're like the actress Marilu Henner and others who have what amounts to total recall of exact days and events.

[runnersdialzero]

Or, narrowing it down even further than the December 23 example, try to remember *specific* details from 2 weeks ago today...what were you doing that Tuesday? Try that without the aid of email records, journals, calendars, memos, etc. It's damn near impossible unless you're like the actress Marilu Henner and others who have what amounts to total recall of exact days and events.

I was depressed and eating myself to death, just like I am today.

[Andrew G. Doe]

This is one way the inaccurate information spreads through the years and snowballs into where some of these cases are today. I'm not saying this is to justify someone insisting something isn't so in spite of factual proof, but let's cut a bit more slack than some might be willing to do when the case warrants it, because do we honestly think these session players can remember each and every day from 4 decades ago when a fan calls them on it?

Regarding her Motown claims, Carol is being called on them by such fans as Brian Dozier, Smokey Robinson and Hank Cosby. I think they know what they're talking about. Thus.

The fans like myself who called her out have two major problems with Ms. Kaye: one, she is claiming credit for sessions she didn't do, and two, she is extraordinarily unpleasant to anyone who attempts to correct her faulty memory (I'm being polite here - I could have as easily said "refute her lies"), as has been shown below.

[guitarfool2002]

Let me state again that my post(s) above are not about the Motown situation. I know the facts of that one and it's nothing I want to get involved with. I'm talking about the other studio players not named Glen, Hal, or Carol who we may encounter at some point and ask a question.

[Jon Stebbins]

I've already posted Tommy's reply to the issue, which he'd tweak probably depending on his audience, but think about it like this for a minute: You're *that* session guy who has a career in music spanning decades, you've played on hundreds of "hit" records, and you're traveling around meeting fans at various shows and clinics. Someone approaches you at one of those one-out-of-365 days a year and grabs your hand, saying something like "Hey man, I LOVE that guitar part you played on (...fill in song name here...), I learned that part, that was such an inspiration, thank you!" and all the other hyperbole that fans hurl at these musicians regularly. That's what fans do, I've done it and so has every musician I'm sure.

So that famous session player cannot remember playing that particular song, but in his mind thinks "perhaps I did play that?" because he knows he worked with the artist this fan is talking about, what does he say? Does he act polite to that obviously grateful fan and say "Thanks!", or because he may or may not have played it, does he say "Sir, I don't know what the hell you're talking about, I never played that song, etc..."

This is one way the inaccurate information spreads through the years and snowballs into where some of these cases are today. I'm not saying this is to justify someone insisting something isn't so in spite of factual proof, but let's cut a bit more slack than some might be willing to do when the case warrants it, because do we honestly think these session players can remember each and every day from 4 decades ago when a fan calls them on it?

Again, not to whitewash people who know the facts and insist something is so when it just ain't so, but there are reasons behind some of these issues.

And just as an experiment, with Christmas coming up, I challenge each of you to remember a specific date of December 23, two days before Christmas with all the hustle and bustle, choose a year: 2010, 2005, 1995, 1985, 1975, etc. Now remember something specific about that day in any of those years. Good luck!

You are right, this is definitely the case. They have no way of keeping track of the hundreds of sessions in their memory, and they are constantly being told they played on nearly everything that was a hit song recorded in L.A. during that period. People reel off the classic tunes from the era, and even many documentary filmmakers and authors regurgitate the spiel including some of the newest stuff that's out there. However, we should also think about it like this for a minute...
You're a drummer and founding member of a band. YOU played on the classic Beach Boys versions of Surfer Girl, Catch A Wave, Hawaii, In My Room, Little Deuce Coupe, Don't Worry Baby, Little Saint Nick, Fun Fun Fun, The Warmth Of The Sun, I Get Around, Wendy, All Summer Long, Little Honda, Hushabye, Girls On The Beach, Don't Back Down, Dance Dance Dance, When I Grow Up To Be A Man, I'm So Young, She Knows Me Too Well, Girl Don't Tell Me, You're So Good To Me, That's Not Me, Holidays, Wild Honey, I Can Hear Music,  etc... But 90% of the music aficionados who think they know a little bit about music history assume that someone else was the drummer on all of this stuff. When they hear this stuff on the radio or on TV or in movies they are listening with the thought in mind its that Wrecking Crew genius Hal Blaine playing those classic drums parts because he's an artist and you were only a clubber. And when they comment they say that you got replaced in the studio because you were not good enough. Sure, you were fun to watch in concert...but not skilled enough for the studio. To me the disrespect that Dennis Wilson routinely gets, not by low information fans, but by people who think of themselves as knowledgeable is sickening. ANY drummer would be thrilled to have a fraction of the memorable credits that Dennis should be remembered for, but more often than not he gets zero credit for. To me the point you made vs. this crime in progress do not compare. And I'm not saying YOU were comparing them...but the above is exactly why some of us get a little freaked out when someone like Glen or Hal or Carol take credit for something that wasn't theirs. It spreads like an infection, and in the end you get the constant drip that the Beach Boys were inferior musicians who could not cut it in the studio. I want to be one of the people who turns that perception back towards something closer to the truth.

[guitarfool2002]

I agree, and Jon, you deserve a lot of credit and thanks for your efforts in correcting that story and giving Dennis the credit he deserves as a drummer on those classic hits. It's definitely an uphill battle, as proven by the tens of thousands of fans who still, to this day, hang the line "but they didn't play their own instruments" around the necks of the Monkees, which totally discounts their music in a way. Just like saying Dennis wasn't on those studio sessions, it's like casting a shadow on the music and the enjoyment of that music by placing an asterisk next to the song title...and the asterisk shouldn't be there in the first place if people knew the truth. I'm afraid the work will be made much harder be decades of misinformation by those who have told the story in books, film, and the like, as you describe.

[Jon Stebbins]

I agree, and Jon, you deserve a lot of credit and thanks for your efforts in correcting that story and giving Dennis the credit he deserves as a drummer on those classic hits. It's definitely an uphill battle, as proven by the tens of thousands of fans who still, to this day, hang the line "but they didn't play their own instruments" around the necks of the Monkees, which totally discounts their music in a way. Just like saying Dennis wasn't on those studio sessions, it's like casting a shadow on the music and the enjoyment of that music by placing an asterisk next to the song title...and the asterisk shouldn't be there in the first place if people knew the truth. I'm afraid the work will be made much harder be decades of misinformation by those who have told the story in books, film, and the like, as you describe.

Thanks...but don't get me started on the Monkees. Hugest crime in progress is the fact they are not in the Rock Hall of Fame. They should have gone in 20 years ago. The quality of their best stuff ranks with anybody. They were genius on so many levels. And they did it all in two years!

[Mike's Beard]

Well three of them should be inducted anyway. Jones can go suck on one.

[Tristero]

You're a drummer and founding member of a band. YOU played on the classic Beach Boys versions of Surfer Girl, Catch A Wave, Hawaii, In My Room, Little Deuce Coupe, Don't Worry Baby, Little Saint Nick, Fun Fun Fun, The Warmth Of The Sun, I Get Around, Wendy, All Summer Long, Little Honda, Hushabye, Girls On The Beach, Don't Back Down, Dance Dance Dance, When I Grow Up To Be A Man, I'm So Young, She Knows Me Too Well, Girl Don't Tell Me, You're So Good To Me, That's Not Me, Holidays, Wild Honey, I Can Hear Music,  etc... But 90% of the music aficionados who think they know a little bit about music history assume that someone else was the drummer on all of this stuff. When they hear this stuff on the radio or on TV or in movies they are listening with the thought in mind its that Wrecking Crew genius Hal Blaine playing those classic drums parts because he's an artist and you were only a clubber. And when they comment they say that you got replaced in the studio because you were not good enough. Sure, you were fun to watch in concert...but not skilled enough for the studio. To me the disrespect that Dennis Wilson routinely gets, not by low information fans, but by people who think of themselves as knowledgeable is sickening. ANY drummer would be thrilled to have a fraction of the memorable credits that Dennis should be remembered for, but more often than not he gets zero credit for. To me the point you made vs. this crime in progress do not compare. And I'm not saying YOU were comparing them...but the above is exactly why some of us get a little freaked out when someone like Glen or Hal or Carol take credit for something that wasn't theirs. It spreads like an infection, and in the end you get the constant drip that the Beach Boys were inferior musicians who could not cut it in the studio. I want to be one of the people who turns that perception back towards something closer to the truth.

Fair enough, Denny deserves more credit, but then why do you keep glossing over the not inconsiderable drumming contributions of Jim Gordon, sir?     Seriously though, he did some fine work for the Boys.  I just realized that's him pounding away on I'm Waiting For The Day.

I agree about the Monkees too.  For me, one of the coolest things about that band was the way they staged their rebellion (largely at Mike's urging) and seized control of their musical destiny on Headquarters (not to mention the subversive self parody of Head!).  Yes, a lot of people still buy the pre-fab myth, but fortunately, the Monkees have a strong and devoted following out there, counteracting the misinformation (as we see on the Hoffman board regularly).

[guitarfool2002]

You're a drummer and founding member of a band. YOU played on the classic Beach Boys versions of Surfer Girl, Catch A Wave, Hawaii, In My Room, Little Deuce Coupe, Don't Worry Baby, Little Saint Nick, Fun Fun Fun, The Warmth Of The Sun, I Get Around, Wendy, All Summer Long, Little Honda, Hushabye, Girls On The Beach, Don't Back Down, Dance Dance Dance, When I Grow Up To Be A Man, I'm So Young, She Knows Me Too Well, Girl Don't Tell Me, You're So Good To Me, That's Not Me, Holidays, Wild Honey, I Can Hear Music,  etc... But 90% of the music aficionados who think they know a little bit about music history assume that someone else was the drummer on all of this stuff. When they hear this stuff on the radio or on TV or in movies they are listening with the thought in mind its that Wrecking Crew genius Hal Blaine playing those classic drums parts because he's an artist and you were only a clubber. And when they comment they say that you got replaced in the studio because you were not good enough. Sure, you were fun to watch in concert...but not skilled enough for the studio. To me the disrespect that Dennis Wilson routinely gets, not by low information fans, but by people who think of themselves as knowledgeable is sickening. ANY drummer would be thrilled to have a fraction of the memorable credits that Dennis should be remembered for, but more often than not he gets zero credit for. To me the point you made vs. this crime in progress do not compare. And I'm not saying YOU were comparing them...but the above is exactly why some of us get a little freaked out when someone like Glen or Hal or Carol take credit for something that wasn't theirs. It spreads like an infection, and in the end you get the constant drip that the Beach Boys were inferior musicians who could not cut it in the studio. I want to be one of the people who turns that perception back towards something closer to the truth.

Fair enough, Denny deserves more credit, but then why do you keep glossing over the not inconsiderable drumming contributions of Jim Gordon, sir?     Seriously though, he did some fine work for the Boys.  I just realized that's him pounding away on I'm Waiting For The Day.

I agree about the Monkees too.  For me, one of the coolest things about that band was the way they staged their rebellion (largely at Mike's urging) and seized control of their musical destiny on Headquarters (not to mention the subversive self parody of Head!).  Yes, a lot of people still buy the pre-fab myth, but fortunately, the Monkees have a strong and devoted following out there, counteracting the misinformation (as we see on the Hoffman board regularly).

I don't get the Jim Gordon reference...

[18thofMay]

That interview was for the syndicated 20th Anniversary TV Special (1981, with lots of 1980 concert footage from Knebworth and DC).

Yes, that's the one. Been awhile since I saw it - amazing how memory fades in 30 years, isn't it? 

And no, it can't be corroborated b/c Glen's name is not on any of the "Good Vibrations" AFMs, nor is his voice on, or name referred to, on any of the session tapes.  Same for the rest of the SMiLE sessions.  If he did play on five "Good Vibrations" sessions, the tapes are missing from the vaults, the AFM sheets are missing from the Union and Capitol Records files, and they didn't make it to the final edit anyway.

Well, shoot! Did Glen exaggerate then? Is this also a case where a member of the Wrecking Crew claimed that he played on Good Vibrations and really didn't? Did he 'misremember'? Was he lying or did he have a selective memory? Did he really play on a cover version of Good Vibrations? Can he be forgiven for this misrepresentation of himself?

Please see posts about Tedesco, Blaine and Kaye above. 

Thanks, C-man.

You are obviously missing the point Mikie!

[Mikie]

I'm reporting you to the Moderator.

[DonnyL]

Thanks...but don't get me started on the Monkees. Hugest crime in progress is the fact they are not in the Rock Hall of Fame. They should have gone in 20 years ago. The quality of their best stuff ranks with anybody. They were genius on so many levels. And they did it all in two years![/quote]

+1

[Tristero]

I don't get the Jim Gordon reference...

I just thought that it was funny that he kept talking about how Denny's drumming got overlooked in favor of Hal Blaine, but then he didn't mention Gordon's contributions either, which kind of gets back to the point you made earlier.  It seems like some of these musicians (Kaye and Blaine, in particular) have been more successful at preserving their legacy while others get left behind, not because they were inferior players, but due to circumstance, bad luck, etc.

[guitarfool2002]

I don't get the Jim Gordon reference...

I just thought that it was funny that he kept talking about how Denny's drumming got overlooked in favor of Hal Blaine, but then he didn't mention Gordon's contributions either, which kind of gets back to the point you made earlier.  It seems like some of these musicians (Kaye and Blaine, in particular) have been more successful at preserving their legacy while others get left behind, not because they were inferior players, but due to circumstance, bad luck, etc.

That does make sense, I just wasn't sure but wanted to clarify! Another factor is that some of them were better at the art of self-promotion than others, and may have been bigger personalities than others who may have been more quiet.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

Yeah, it is interesting the different sort of categories that have developed.  You have guys like Glen or Leon Russell, who obviously self promoted so much that they became stars in their own right, but Hal could be said to be a star on some level too.  And then Carol, Tedesco, Joe Osborne, Larry Knechtel...they are pretty well known to the average 60s music fan, I should think.

And then you have the guys who were stars in another genre.  Barney Kessel, Howard Roberts--jazz poll winners.

And then, of course, you have what I suppose would just be the "average" studio musician.  Richie Frost or somebody like that.

Plenty of diversity, at least.

[bgas]

I don't get the Jim Gordon reference...

I just thought that it was funny that he kept talking about how Denny's drumming got overlooked in favor of Hal Blaine, but then he didn't mention Gordon's contributions either, which kind of gets back to the point you made earlier.  It seems like some of these musicians (Kaye and Blaine, in particular) have been more successful at preserving their legacy while others get left behind, not because they were inferior players, but due to circumstance, bad luck, etc.

That does make sense, I just wasn't sure but wanted to clarify! Another factor is that some of them were better at the art of self-promotion than others, and may have been bigger personalities than others who may have been more quiet.

 I don't see Jon trying to gloss over Jim Gordon's contributions; all I read is he wants Denny to get the credit he deserves for HIS OWN drumming, which is being lost to Hal.  Jim's credits are an entirely different matter, and while he certainly deserves them, if they ultimately get washed away, I'd ventuire its on account of his actions in the other matter. Just or not, "for every action there's a reaction"