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SMiLE - What's missing from the vaults?
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Topic: SMiLE - What's missing from the vaults? (Read 13070 times)
Andrew G. Doe
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Re: SMiLE - What's missing from the vaults?
«
Reply #25 on:
November 18, 2011, 02:57:42 AM »
For years, folk have had small orgasms about unearthing "SUpt2", and it's even been stated that someone (actually, just one uncorroborated person) has heard it, but the fact is, the
sole
piece of extremely shaky evidence for any such piece of music even existing, much less being recorded, is an AFM sheet that lists the session as "Surf's Up (1st movement)", causing those prone to doing so to leap (and doubtless bound - ya see what I did there ?) to the assumption that a part 2
MUST
exist. There's more persuasive evidence for the existence of Bigfoot.
Quote from: Chris Moise on November 17, 2011, 10:45:40 AM
If my thinking is correct then how would we know the session wasn’t for Surf’s Up part 2? I get that there is no firm evidence supporting it was for part 2 but if we know a) there was a session that day
b) it was logged as Surf’s Up and c) a backing for the 2nd half of the song had yet to be recorded
then ‘part 2’ seems as likely as anything else. I guess I’m not seeing how we would know for certain there was no session this date or why the lack of a tape would be firm proof it never happened...
So... why wasn't it logged as "part 2" or "(2nd movement)" ?
«
Last Edit: November 18, 2011, 03:00:57 AM by Andrew G. Doe
»
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The Shift
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Re: SMiLE - What's missing from the vaults?
«
Reply #26 on:
November 18, 2011, 03:12:38 AM »
Quote from: Andrew G. Doe on November 18, 2011, 02:57:42 AM
For years, folk have had small orgasms about unearthing "SUpt2", and it's even been stated that someone (actually, just one uncorroborated person) has heard it, but the fact is, the
sole
piece of extremely shaky evidence for any such piece of music even existing, much less being recorded, is an AFM sheet that lists the session as "Surf's Up (1st movement)", causing those prone to doing so to leap (and doubtless bound - ya see what I did there ?) to the assumption that a part 2
MUST
exist. There's more persuasive evidence for the existence of Bigfoot.
Quote from: Chris Moise on November 17, 2011, 10:45:40 AM
If my thinking is correct then how would we know the session wasn’t for Surf’s Up part 2? I get that there is no firm evidence supporting it was for part 2 but if we know a) there was a session that day
b) it was logged as Surf’s Up and c) a backing for the 2nd half of the song had yet to be recorded
then ‘part 2’ seems as likely as anything else. I guess I’m not seeing how we would know for certain there was no session this date or why the lack of a tape would be firm proof it never happened...
So... why wasn't it logged as "part 2" or "(2nd movement)" ?
Careful Andrew, if what you're reporting was being taken by some as a basis for evidence of a Part Two, then surely it also doesn't rule there being parts Three and Four… in fact, maybe as many as 24.
Oooh the excitement!
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Chris Moise
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Re: SMiLE - What's missing from the vaults?
«
Reply #27 on:
November 20, 2011, 07:17:37 PM »
Quote from: Andrew G. Doe on November 18, 2011, 02:57:42 AM
So... why wasn't it logged as "part 2" or "(2nd movement)" ?
Not sure why you ask. Understand I haven't argued or assumed it was for "part 2" or "2nd movement" - in fact I went out my way to acknowledge it could've been for anything and there was no proof it had feces to do with Surf's Up.
My only point was to question the assertion part 2 was definitely not recorded. I totally get there is zero proof for it - if I were a betting man I'd bet against it but since - a) there are more sessions logged as "SU" than we have tapes for b) the session in question wasn't cancelled c) the instrumental lineup doesn't match any Smile known material it seems possible the Jan 23 session was "part 2", sure, it's also possible it was a full band recreation of "Ball & Mitt" or the session went so bad they didn't bother starting the tape machine. It just seemed premature to me to strike the gavel and declare it wasn't recorded but, as I said earlier, I'll yield to your expertise here, just not without a fight first
«
Last Edit: November 20, 2011, 07:20:39 PM by Chris Moise
»
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Chris Moise
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Re: SMiLE - What's missing from the vaults?
«
Reply #28 on:
November 20, 2011, 07:20:05 PM »
Quote from: Andrew G. Doe on November 18, 2011, 02:57:42 AM
...but the fact is, the
sole
piece of extremely shaky evidence for any such piece of music even existing, much less being recorded, is an AFM sheet that lists the session as "Surf's Up (1st movement)", causing those prone to doing so to leap (and doubtless bound - ya see what I did there ?) to the assumption that a part 2
MUST
exist. There's more persuasive evidence for the existence of Bigfoot.
I believe c-man has said the AFM sheet lists the first session as just "Surf's Up" and the second session later that day with the strings is logged as simply "Part 1".
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Dr. Tim
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Re: SMiLE - What's missing from the vaults?
«
Reply #29 on:
November 20, 2011, 07:57:56 PM »
Asked this in the Surf's Up box set thread but I'll ask it here too:
For BWPS, Brian asked Paul Mertens to add a string section for part 2. My question: is that string arrangement something Brian remembered from 1967 and told Paul how it should go? Or was that one of the 2003 improvements and "new things" added to BWPS?
I still ask, though I also understand that there was no actual string section recorded for part 2 in 1967, as Andrew notes above.
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Chocolate Shake Man
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Re: SMiLE - What's missing from the vaults?
«
Reply #30 on:
November 20, 2011, 08:14:14 PM »
Quote from: Dr. Tim on November 20, 2011, 07:57:56 PM
Asked this in the Surf's Up box set thread but I'll ask it here too:
For BWPS, Brian asked Paul Mertens to add a string section for part 2. My question: is that string arrangement something Brian remembered from 1967 and told Paul how it should go? Or was that one of the 2003 improvements and "new things" added to BWPS?
I still ask, though I also understand that there was no actual string section recorded for part 2 in 1967, as Andrew notes above.
Well, even if it was something from 1967, we could hardly imagine that there'd be any similarities since it would be an entirely new arrangment written by a person who wasn't even around the original sessions.
But I would say that it is extremely unlikely bordering on impossible that this was a vintage idea. The 2003 idea is simply using the the Surf's Up LP model, which was forced to use the solo demo version for Part 2 in lieu of no actual studio recording of Part 2 turning up, and they added a string arrangment over top. Of course using a demo for a section quite simply would not have happened on a completed 1967 Smile. Moreover the 2003 string arrangement is just not in keeping with the Smile asethetic. So like I said in that same thread, while there are lots of gorgeous and wonderful versions of Smile (both on the sessions, the demo, the Wild Honey version, and on BWPS) we unfortunately have nothing that sounds like what the song would have sounded like had it been completed in 1967 for a completed Smile album.
«
Last Edit: November 20, 2011, 08:22:13 PM by rockandroll
»
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Jim V.
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Re: SMiLE - What's missing from the vaults?
«
Reply #31 on:
November 20, 2011, 09:10:39 PM »
Quote from: rockandroll on November 20, 2011, 08:14:14 PM
Quote from: Dr. Tim on November 20, 2011, 07:57:56 PM
Asked this in the Surf's Up box set thread but I'll ask it here too:
For BWPS, Brian asked Paul Mertens to add a string section for part 2. My question: is that string arrangement something Brian remembered from 1967 and told Paul how it should go? Or was that one of the 2003 improvements and "new things" added to BWPS?
I still ask, though I also understand that there was no actual string section recorded for part 2 in 1967, as Andrew notes above.
Well, even if it was something from 1967, we could hardly imagine that there'd be any similarities since it would be an entirely new arrangment written by a person who wasn't even around the original sessions.
But I would say that it is extremely unlikely bordering on impossible that this was a vintage idea. The 2003 idea is simply using the the Surf's Up LP model, which was forced to use the solo demo version for Part 2 in lieu of no actual studio recording of Part 2 turning up, and they added a string arrangment over top. Of course using a demo for a section quite simply would not have happened on a completed 1967 Smile. Moreover the 2003 string arrangement is just not in keeping with the Smile asethetic. So like I said in that same thread, while there are lots of gorgeous and wonderful versions of Smile (both on the sessions, the demo, the Wild Honey version, and on BWPS) we unfortunately have nothing that sounds like what the song would have sounded like had it been completed in 1967 for a completed Smile album.
I know what you're saying, but you know what? It doesn't really bother me. All of the versions of this song are beautiful, and I'm happy we have all of them.
And yes, it didn't sound
exactly
like it may have in 1967, but we have to remember that Brian contributed to and/or okayed all of the versions that are out there, including the
Surf's Up
version, the
BWPS
version, and
The SMiLE Sessions
version. And what I care about, is that the song hits me emotionally, and that the artist seems happy with it. And Brian is happy with all of those, so I won't waste time crying over spilt milk. It's kinda how I feel about
SMiLE
as a whole; sure, I'd really love it was finished the way Brian saw it at one point in 1966 or 1967, but it wasn't, and I'm happy that he's shared all that he has with us.
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Shane
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Re: SMiLE - What's missing from the vaults?
«
Reply #32 on:
November 20, 2011, 09:12:54 PM »
Not to derail the thread or anything... I noticed the mention of "Ball and Mitt" a few posts ago. I saw that notation on one of the tape boxes... what exactly is this thing?
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Chris Moise
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Re: SMiLE - What's missing from the vaults?
«
Reply #33 on:
November 21, 2011, 02:38:26 PM »
Quote from: Shane on November 20, 2011, 09:12:54 PM
Not to derail the thread or anything... I noticed the mention of "Ball and Mitt" a few posts ago. I saw that notation on one of the tape boxes... what exactly is this thing?
Others will have more details but I believe it is a recording of a baseball landing in a catchers mitt.
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Tristero
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Re: SMiLE - What's missing from the vaults?
«
Reply #34 on:
November 21, 2011, 03:09:56 PM »
Quote from: sweetdudejim on November 20, 2011, 09:10:39 PM
I know what you're saying, but you know what? It doesn't really bother me. All of the versions of this song are beautiful, and I'm happy we have all of them.
And yes, it didn't sound
exactly
like it may have in 1967, but we have to remember that Brian contributed to and/or okayed all of the versions that are out there, including the
Surf's Up
version, the
BWPS
version, and
The SMiLE Sessions
version. And what I care about, is that the song hits me emotionally, and that the artist seems happy with it. And Brian is happy with all of those, so I won't waste time crying over spilt milk. It's kinda how I feel about
SMiLE
as a whole; sure, I'd really love it was finished the way Brian saw it at one point in 1966 or 1967, but it wasn't, and I'm happy that he's shared all that he has with us.
I'm with you on this. It's fascinating to speculate what Brian might have done with the arrangement for Part 2 back then and if the tapes magically emerged tomorrow, I'd get down on my knees and thank Murry, but I'm not holding my breath. Maybe the sessions went badly or they were actually for something else--we'll likely never know. At this point, I've grown so accustomed to the stripped down "demo" version from '66, I tend to prefer a more minimalist presentation on Surf's Up anyway. When the song's that great, you don't need a lot of additional window dressing.
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hypehat
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Re: SMiLE - What's missing from the vaults?
«
Reply #35 on:
November 21, 2011, 04:05:58 PM »
Quote from: Chris Moise on November 21, 2011, 02:38:26 PM
Quote from: Shane on November 20, 2011, 09:12:54 PM
Not to derail the thread or anything... I noticed the mention of "Ball and Mitt" a few posts ago. I saw that notation on one of the tape boxes... what exactly is this thing?
Others will have more details but I believe it is a recording of a baseball landing in a catchers mitt.
Brian and Dennis chucking a ball about in the studio, apparently. I guess it was deemed dispensable in cutting down from 7 discs worth of sessions.
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Re: SMiLE - What's missing from the vaults?
«
Reply #36 on:
November 21, 2011, 09:53:59 PM »
Quote from: hypehat on November 21, 2011, 04:05:58 PM
Quote from: Chris Moise on November 21, 2011, 02:38:26 PM
Quote from: Shane on November 20, 2011, 09:12:54 PM
Not to derail the thread or anything... I noticed the mention of "Ball and Mitt" a few posts ago. I saw that notation on one of the tape boxes... what exactly is this thing?
Others will have more details but I believe it is a recording of a baseball landing in a catchers mitt.
Brian and Dennis chucking a ball about in the studio, apparently. I guess it was deemed dispensable in cutting down from 7 discs worth of sessions.
5 seconds of hidden track wouldn't have hurt!
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Dunderhead
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Re: SMiLE - What's missing from the vaults?
«
Reply #37 on:
November 22, 2011, 12:00:22 AM »
I always thought the arrangement for part 2 would follow the piano. It's always been taken for granted that the second half of the song would have that piano backing, but remember, as far as we know it was just a demo. That piano part could have been played by strings/horns instead. I think you can kind of imagine how it would sound.
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Re: SMiLE - What's missing from the vaults?
«
Reply #38 on:
November 22, 2011, 02:57:41 AM »
Were any more "Elements" tracks recorded apart from "Part One: Fire" ??
I am guessing that the answer is "no".
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37!ws
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Re: SMiLE - What's missing from the vaults?
«
Reply #39 on:
November 22, 2011, 08:53:03 AM »
Quote from: hypehat on November 21, 2011, 04:05:58 PM
Brian and Dennis chucking a ball about in the studio, apparently. I guess it was deemed dispensable in cutting down from 7 discs worth of sessions.
My guess is it was never even considered -- remember, Linnet said that when whittling down to 5 disc, NO MATERIAL was sacrificed; I'm guessing it was just simply the arrangement of tracks to make 'em fit in as few CDs as possible...
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Re: SMiLE - What's missing from the vaults?
«
Reply #40 on:
November 22, 2011, 08:59:23 AM »
Quote from: 37!ws on November 22, 2011, 08:53:03 AM
Quote from: hypehat on November 21, 2011, 04:05:58 PM
Brian and Dennis chucking a ball about in the studio, apparently. I guess it was deemed dispensable in cutting down from 7 discs worth of sessions.
My guess is it was never even considered -- remember, Linnet said that when whittling down to 5 disc, NO MATERIAL was sacrificed; I'm guessing it was just simply the arrangement of tracks to make 'em fit in as few CDs as possible...
Ball & Mitt would have added nothing to the box - I'd take one minute of Surf's Up over a thousand Ball & Mitts.
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runnersdialzero
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Re: SMiLE - What's missing from the vaults?
«
Reply #41 on:
November 22, 2011, 09:06:04 AM »
Quote from: John Manning on November 22, 2011, 08:59:23 AM
Quote from: 37!ws on November 22, 2011, 08:53:03 AM
Quote from: hypehat on November 21, 2011, 04:05:58 PM
Brian and Dennis chucking a ball about in the studio, apparently. I guess it was deemed dispensable in cutting down from 7 discs worth of sessions.
My guess is it was never even considered -- remember, Linnet said that when whittling down to 5 disc, NO MATERIAL was sacrificed; I'm guessing it was just simply the arrangement of tracks to make 'em fit in as few CDs as possible...
Ball & Mitt would have added nothing to the box - I'd take one minute of Surf's Up over a thousand Ball & Mitts.
You speak as though, had "Ball & Mitt" been included, something incredibly important as part of the "Surf's Up" session would've been removed.
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Re: SMiLE - What's missing from the vaults?
«
Reply #42 on:
November 22, 2011, 10:26:23 AM »
From the invaluable "Sound on Sound" article about BWPS (
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/Oct04/articles/smile.htm
)
"Mertens also helped to score the orchestration for the second part of the song 'Surf's Up'. A 1966 version featuring Brian playing the song alone at the piano has survived, and a more produced instrumental track for the first section exists featuring percussion, basses and horns, but no similarly developed recording of the second section has ever been found. "I asked Brian what he remembered of it," says Darian, "and he said there were some strings, so we worked on that a little bit, and Van Dyke and Paul Mertens did some orchestrating."
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Dr. Tim
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Re: SMiLE - What's missing from the vaults?
«
Reply #43 on:
November 22, 2011, 10:40:17 AM »
That's as good an answer as can be expected - thanks!
I now recall I read this at the time but did not download it, I had remembered the part about the orchestrating but not the rest. Will keep it now for my reference archive!
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anazgnos
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Re: SMiLE - What's missing from the vaults?
«
Reply #44 on:
November 22, 2011, 10:45:29 AM »
Quote from: John Manning on November 22, 2011, 08:59:23 AM
Quote from: 37!ws on November 22, 2011, 08:53:03 AM
Quote from: hypehat on November 21, 2011, 04:05:58 PM
Brian and Dennis chucking a ball about in the studio, apparently. I guess it was deemed dispensable in cutting down from 7 discs worth of sessions.
My guess is it was never even considered -- remember, Linnet said that when whittling down to 5 disc, NO MATERIAL was sacrificed; I'm guessing it was just simply the arrangement of tracks to make 'em fit in as few CDs as possible...
Ball & Mitt would have added nothing to the box - I'd take one minute of Surf's Up over a thousand Ball & Mitts.
Of course, in a few years once the dust has settled and the needs of "Joe Public" are but a distant memory, the failure of The Smile Sessions to take a strict "one thousand Ball and Mitts" approach will come to be seen as a tragic missed opportunity. Mark my words.
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