Darian and SMiLE

[Sam_BFC]

I had no idea that so many here regard BWPS to be the Smile...
So, are the '66-'67 sessions "Smile"?  Nope.  The Brian Wilson of 1966-1967 never finished it.  So, BWPS is finished, so that must be "Smile", right?  Nope.

I don't consider BWPS to be the Smile.  I consider it to be the only complete Smile if that makes any sense.  And to describe it as a 'cover' would be to undermine it IMO...just as to describe BWPS as the  Smile would undermine the material of the original sessions.

I would love to add a needledrop to my SMiLE library...if only I could find one...

ME toooooooooooo.

[pixletwin]

Yeah, people complain about the sound of BWPS...on CD. But I also recall hearing people say BWPS sounds amazing on vinyl. (And please...spare me the whole vinyl-is-God thing. It's apples and oranges to me...)

BUT...I do recall asking a couple years back if anybody had done a needle-drop of BWPS...or perhaps talked the good Dr. Ebbetts into doing so. Did this ever happen?

I would love to add a needledrop to my SMiLE library...if only I could find one...

I never had a problem with the sound of BWPS.  I think it sounds great.  It's missing something else.

I know exactly what you mean. It is missing the Beach Boy blend.

....


aaaaaaand the synthesizer kills it too. 

[FatherOfTheMan Sr101]

Yeah, people complain about the sound of BWPS...on CD. But I also recall hearing people say BWPS sounds amazing on vinyl. (And please...spare me the whole vinyl-is-God thing. It's apples and oranges to me...)

BUT...I do recall asking a couple years back if anybody had done a needle-drop of BWPS...or perhaps talked the good Dr. Ebbetts into doing so. Did this ever happen?

I would love to add a needledrop to my SMiLE library...if only I could find one...

Damn man me too... I heard Joanna Leary's Cow on vinyl [it's on YouTube] and it really does sound good. I've been looking for a vinyl rip of BWPS for YEARS.

I Have some 66'-67' stuff of vinyl, if you're interested PM me, consider it done

[rab2591]

SMiLE is an idea. It is an album that was to be humorous, it was to carry the sound of the elements, it was to make us laugh, cry, pray, and send us on a spiritual journey from Plymouth Rock to Hawaii. BWPS did all this for me. The idea worked for me. Thus, the idea of SMiLE was carried out to my (and Brian's) liking. The idea of SMiLE was completed - according to the composer of the work.

Call it what you want to call it...call it Brian Wilson talks to Melinda/management, then talks to Darian, then re-records, and then finally presents The Smile Sessions - whatever helps you sleep at night - Brian calls it a finished work of SMiLE...and that work has turned a lot of people to liking the Beach Boys and Brian Wilson compositions. Mission accomplished.

Because the wrecking crew or the Beach Boys weren't on it does not make the idea/finished work any less satisfactory. Just because Brian forgot some tidbits and didn't add them to BWPS* doesn't make BWPS an illegitimate version of SMiLE.

*he probably did the same thing with Pet Sounds - ideas are fleeting, it doesn't make the final product any less legitimate just because those ideas weren't used.

[Micha]

Your version of SMiLE doesn't exist, never has existed,

Actually 3 of my versions of SMiLE exist... and two more in my mind I didn't get to splice together yet. 

The Beach Boys vocals will never be topped by anyone, ever. There is enthusiasm and a youthful glow to their voices that Brian's band DOES NOT HAVE AT ALL.

Noone does, nobody can top the BBs, you can't blame Brian's band. 

SMiLE is an idea. It is an album that was to be humorous, it was to carry the sound of the elements, it was to make us laugh, cry, pray, and send us on a spiritual journey from Plymouth Rock to Hawaii. BWPS did all this for me. The idea worked for me. Thus, the idea of SMiLE was carried out to my (and Brian's) liking. The idea of SMiLE was completed - according to the composer of the work.

Absolutely. SMiLE was to be an "American Gothic" trip, and BWPS is. Too bad he called it "Brian Wilson Presents SMiLE" to go with the previous "Brian Wilson Presents Pet Sounds" CD/DVD.

[SloopJohnB]

Brian calls it a finished work of SMiLE...

Brian says a LOT of things. What's his favorite movie again?

Because the wrecking crew or the Beach Boys weren't on it does not make the idea/finished work any less satisfactory.

Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man. To me it's way less satisfactory.

Just because Brian forgot some tidbits and didn't add them to BWPS* doesn't make BWPS an illegitimate version of SMiLE.

*he probably did the same thing with Pet Sounds - ideas are fleeting, it doesn't make the final product any less legitimate just because those ideas weren't used.

Ah, but you see, the difference is that Pet Sounds was released when it was supposed to be, so we know what Brian wanted it to be like at that time. We don't know what Brian wanted Smile to be like in mid-1967. Hell, he probably didn't know it himself, and probably still doesn't know it today.

[rab2591]

Brian calls it a finished work of SMiLE...

Brian says a LOT of things. What's his favorite movie again?

Because the wrecking crew or the Beach Boys weren't on it does not make the idea/finished work any less satisfactory.

Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man. To me it's way less satisfactory.

Just because Brian forgot some tidbits and didn't add them to BWPS* doesn't make BWPS an illegitimate version of SMiLE.

*he probably did the same thing with Pet Sounds - ideas are fleeting, it doesn't make the final product any less legitimate just because those ideas weren't used.

Ah, but you see, the difference is that Pet Sounds was released when it was supposed to be, so we know what Brian wanted it to be like at that time. We don't know what Brian wanted Smile to be like in mid-1967. Hell, he probably didn't know it himself, and probably still doesn't know it today.

On your first point. True. Brian has no idea what the hell he likes/wants/etc. He is a vegetable.

On your second point - that's my point - you're basing the legitimacy of SMiLE on your personal basis (you want the wrecking crew, you want the Beach Boys, you want a fleeting idea)...you're not basing the legitimacy of the work on Brian's opinion. YOU can say that SMiLE isn't SMiLE (whatever that means) - fine, that's YOUR opinion, my point is that the composer has dubbed BWPS as SMiLE...thus I think he has some say in the matter...though apparently his say doesn't matter to some people around here. His supposed favorite movie is Norbit - all credibility from thereon vanished.

On your third point. Brian never knew what SMiLE wanted to be like back in the day...thus there is no SMiLE and thus, from your standpoint, you can't tell us what SMiLE isn't (since it never existed). Like I said, SMiLE is an idea, a concept created by Brian Wilson and Van Dyke Parks...recorded to album form in 2004, released to the public in completed form.

Also, my point on Pet Sounds was, hypothetically, that Brian may have had an idea for background vocals on 'Don't Talk' but forgot what he wanted. Doesn't make the song any less beautiful. (You were claiming that part of the reason why you think BWPS is not definitive is because Brian may have forgotten an idea he had in '67 and didn't transfer it to the 2004 recordings. It doesn't matter. It doesn't make the music/sequencing any less beautiful...it's all relative).

[SloopJohnB]

On your first point. True. Brian has no idea what the hell he likes/wants/etc. He is a vegetable.

Tssk. Where did I say he was a vegetable? (and if he is, he's my favorite one). He's an artist promoting his work, and the record company & wifeandmanagers have a say in what he's going to tell interviewers. "Nah, it's isn't Smile, it would have been much different, this album is just rerecorded songs, presented as a finished album, but it's not what I would have done in 1967" probably wasn't the right thing to say. Although he commented that the 2004 album is different sonically from what he was going towards 37 years before.

On your second point - that's my point - you're basing the legitimacy of SMiLE on your personal basis (you want the wrecking crew, you want the Beach Boys, you want a fleeting idea)...you're not basing the legitimacy of the work on Brian's opinion. YOU can say that SMiLE isn't SMiLE (whatever that means)

I'm saying BWPS isn't Smile. Not that Smile isn't Smile (although for you, BWPS is Smile, so...) Besides, I didn't base its legitimacy on what I want. I based it on what it would have been. I said that Smile would have used real instruments, the Beach Boys and the Wrecking Crew had it been released in 1967.

On your third point. Brian never knew what SMiLE wanted to be like back in the day...thus there is no SMiLE and thus, from your standpoint, you can't tell us what SMiLE isn't (since it never existed). Like I said, SMiLE is an idea, a concept created by Brian Wilson and Van Dyke Parks...recorded to album form in 2004, released to the public in completed form.

Yellow is my opinion, green is yours. To me Smile is an unfinished and unreleased album recorded in 1966/1967, to you Smile is an idea, that includes the original recordings and BWPS. I personally refer to this idea as the "Smile saga", to differentiate it from the unreleased album. Maybe it's just semantics at that point. But I think we'll just agree to disagree.

Also, my point on Pet Sounds was, hypothetically, that Brian may have had an idea for background vocals on 'Don't Talk' but forgot what he wanted. Doesn't make the song any less beautiful. (You were claiming that part of the reason why you think BWPS is not definitive is because Brian may have forgotten an idea he had in '67 and didn't transfer it to the 2004 recordings. It doesn't matter. It doesn't make the music/sequencing any less beautiful...it's all relative).

Pet Sounds was released when it was supposed to be, so we can reasonably assume that Brian had had enough time to play with all his ideas for it and decide whether to reject or include them on the album. With Smile, it's different. It looks like he scrapped it before he had time to record all his potential ideas, which is why on BWPS we can only hear the ideas that had already been recorded. Perhaps Smile, if released in 1967, would have used only these ideas (the later ones being ditched) and would have sounded *exactly* like BWPS (although it most likely wouldn't have - it wouldn't have fit on a 33rpm record because of technical limitations) But perhaps it would have used other parts that Brian would have thought of later. We will never know.

[ghost]

I've prepared a batch of kool aid for us all. Put on BWPS and we'll all be In Blue Hawaii in no time.

[rab2591]

You're right. It's semantics. We'll agree to disagree.

[Jonathan Blum]

I had no idea that so many here regard BWPS to be the Smile.  That seems to be the opposite of the majority of views expressed on the boards back in '04.

...and again, we're right back to the detail that the world doesn't actually revolve around what people say on this board.  Sorry, mods.  :-)

I'm saying BWPS isn't Smile. Not that Smile isn't Smile (although for you, BWPS is Smile, so...) Besides, I didn't base its legitimacy on what I want. I based it on what it would have been.

But you're still basing its "legitimacy" on criteria you select -- that focus on "would have been".  And we don't actually have that authority over the work.  Smile exists outside of us.

(And the criteria people are selecting often don't reflect the creator's intentions even at the time.  Some posters have been loving the scary, downbeat aspects of Smile...  the ones which caused Brian to want to scrap "Fire" because it was too freaky.  So it's not part of the "would have been".  He didn't want Smile to be like that, even at the time -- that's not a 2004 revision of his intentions, it's an expression of his intentions right then...)

Cheers,
Jon Blum

[monicker]

Some posters have been loving the scary, downbeat aspects of Smile...  the ones which caused Brian to want to scrap "Fire" because it was too freaky.  So it's not part of the "would have been".  He didn't want Smile to be like that, even at the time -- that's not a 2004 revision of his intentions, it's an expression of his intentions right then...)

Cheers,
Jon Blum

How do you explain Fall Breaks And Back To Winter? Or Smiley Smile Wind Chimes? Or Do You Like Worms? Etc.

EDIT: I guess you would argue that Worms would have probably been scrapped too. But the other two were released a few months after Smile was scrapped.

[ghost]

Brian didn't want freaky at the time? May I remind all of the "... scare a lot of people" quote from Brian during the time? Seems that he did want something unusual, strange, far outside the box. Something a little dangerous - on the edge.

[sockittome]

Here's a little curve ball for the argument:  has everyone forgotten that much of the SMiLE sessions were never meant to be heard by all of us?  That it took some sneaky, illegal, and perhaps unethical (to the artists) acts to make it possible for us to hear them?  Don't get me wrong, I'm glad I've had the opportunity to hear those tracks.  I love 'em.  But think about it.  Technically, officiallythere never was a '67 SMiLE.  

I know, I know that's all about to change.......


hopefully.......

[SloopJohnB]

I'm saying BWPS isn't Smile. Not that Smile isn't Smile (although for you, BWPS is Smile, so...) Besides, I didn't base its legitimacy on what I want. I based it on what it would have been.

But you're still basing its "legitimacy" on criteria you select -- that focus on "would have been".  And we don't actually have that authority over the work.  Smile exists outside of us.

So, if Smile had been released in 1967, it wouldn't have used 1967 instruments, the Beach Boys and the Wrecking Crew? Interesting. 

[Andrew G. Doe]

Smile isn't Smile.

[SloopJohnB]

Smile isn't Smile.

 

[Chris Moise]

Yeah, people complain about the sound of BWPS...on CD. But I also recall hearing people say BWPS sounds amazing on vinyl.

Eh, the best BWPS mastering in the world can't change the fact it uses Kurzweil digital samples rather than a real harpsichord. This is why I prefer the sound of a poor tape dub of a beat up 1966 acetate over BWPS. Just my .02.

[GoofyJeff]

My perspective has changed slightly since the release of BWPS.  At the time, I pretty much considered it THE SMiLE.

Now it's a little more complex than that.

Yes, the original intent back in 2003 was to present the SMiLE material in a way that flows nicely for live performance. That was the genesis of the project. However, as the project involved, Brian started to get more into it and remember certain things, how certain pieces fit together. The introduction of Van Dyke into the project... his being a part of it cannot be understated. He brought legitimacy to the whole deal. Once he came on board, I think the mindset changed. They were completing sections that didn't have lyrics, they were putting things in a cohesive order. They were doing in 2003/2004 what they couldn't and didn't do in 1966/1967. This is not to say they were completing SMiLE, rather taking existing pieces and turning it into something new, yet similar. I get the feeling (and I may be totally off-base) that once VDP came on the scene, Darian let the two masters work their magic, perhaps offering opinions, but pretty much stayed on the sidelines.

I, for one, am incredibly grateful that the upcoming release is, in fact, titled THE SMiLE SESSIONS and not just SMiLE. SMiLE never will be, sadly. However, BWPS and TSS combined give us a great insight and approximation of what could have been, direct from the folks who, under different circumstances, would have created and released the greatest album of all time.  And that, my friends, is something very special indeed.

[onkster]

Brian a vegetable? That's just insulting.

But if he is...he's my favorite vege-table.

[onkster]

[

I Have some 66'-67' stuff of vinyl, if you're interested PM me, consider it done
[/quote]

Nah, I just need a needledrop of BWPS.

I USED to have the 3 LP vinyl set of the old stuff, which I then sold to a disingenuous (former?) member of this board, who took it, made up lame excuses for not paying, then just vanished...from my PM box, at least. But thank you anyway! (And of course, bad on me for trusting someone enough not to get the check first...guess I'm dumb...)

[FatherOfTheMan Sr101]

Brian a vegetable? That's just insulting.

But if he is...he's my favorite vege-table.

WIN.

"If you can just give me one Brian I'll make it last all day!"

Haha

[onkster]

If you brought a big brown bag of him home, I'd...wait, that's getting sick.

[SloopJohnB]

Brian a vegetable? That's just insulting.

But if he is...he's my favorite vege-table.

I hold the copyright to that joke buddy - just scroll up

Tssk. Where did I say he was a vegetable? (and if he is, he's my favorite one).

[onkster]

Dang firsties!