SMiLE Sessions box set!

[18thofMay]

Brian was prone to flights of fancy. Anything you think might have influenced him was just a lark that he was only interested in for a couple of hours.

As I pointed out some 36 hours ago. 

I think he was being sarcastic..

[18thofMay]

I don't think Brian was smart enough to be influenced by things.

Pathetic©

[OBLiO]

Inductive vs. Deductive Reasoning:

"These two methods of reasoning have a very different "feel" to them when you're conducting research. Inductive reasoning, by its very nature, is more open-ended and exploratory, especially at the beginning. Deductive reasoning is more narrow in nature and is concerned with testing or confirming hypotheses." - http://www.socialresearchmethods.net/kb/dedind.php

I can't discount Bill's conviction in his belief based on patterns he has observed. For Instance, the theory regarding
Lake Arrowhead as the spot where a spiritual awakening took place. The Pet Sounds video was confirmed to him
through Derek Taylor's statement as the location the film was made. When the grange idea was challenged I decided
to look into it myself and it turns out there is a grange association with Lake Arrowhead via Victorville and Apple Valley.
The fact that Roy Rogers and Dale Evans lived in Apple Valley in 60's, or the Happy Trails, Cool Water, Home on the Range
songs are also associated with themes on SMiLE doesn't prove there is a connection unless the creators of SMiLE
confirm the influence. I don't even think there "must have been" a connection, but it does make Bill's theory plausible.
Big Sur actually has a Zen Sanctuary. I would think if Bill was peddling Zen (I don't think he is collecting money for presenting his theory, Are you Bill?), he would have chosen Big Sur instead of Arrowhead.

Everyone has theories and even I have theories and it's why I was lured into the SMiLE mystery. Bill's theory needs
to be challenged, just like anyone else, and not completely discounted. I don't know Bill, I have only visited his site,
and it did open a new door into another perspective and that goes beyond SMiLE, btw. Bill's site led me here, too.
Not only that I can say I am (officially ) a Beach Boys, Brian Wilson, Van Dyke Parks fan, now.

Here's another theory in the form of a question - Does the reference to Worms have anything to do with
Frank Herbert's Dune? It was first published in 1965. The spice, the enlightment, water of life... and so on.

[rab2591]

We have the right to argue/debate. However, the stupid jokes, the sarcastic comments based off of these theories are probably going to drive people away from this site.

Tobelman/Fishmonk probably want a universal understanding/belief of their theories, so I can see the right to argue/debate - however I think we can do without the jokes and un-friendly jibing that have been prevalent throughout the last few days.

Just my opinion.

In the mean time - SMiLE is being release later this year! YAY!!!! 

[OBLiO]

Okay Andrew, the balls in your court. Please explain how The SMILE shop is "a paradox....a visual that is not accessable in conscious reality" given the full breadth of Mr. Holmes' quote.

I don't think it's that difficult.  Surrealism is "a movement in art and literature in the 1920s, which developed esp from dada, characterized by the evocative juxtaposition of incongruous images in order to include unconscious and dream elements."  A shop that sells smiles as commodities is not accessible in conscious reality and therefore, according the definition, surrealistic - just like a melting clock is.  A paradox can be statement that is apparently self contradictory or "one exhibiting inexplicable or contradictory aspects."  Again, the image is not based on reality and therefore has inexplicable aspects.  It's drawn not exactly as a child would draw it but is "child-like."

It's apparent how the artwork mirrors the lyrics and the music - the musical sections of Smile are at times juxtaposed in an incongruous fashion, the lyrics have some incongruous surrealistic images including dream elements, and the "cartoon consciousness" of both the music and the lyrics link it with the musical and lyrical theme of innocence that runs throughout Smile.

Notice drugs and psychedelia do not have to be part of this interpretation - but  surrealistic "incongruous" dream imagery is part of the psychedelic experience and the surrealism movement would especially appeal to users of psychedelics.  Look at the poster art of 66-68!

Hi Bicycle Rider,

Your post reminded me of the play/film "Six Degrees of Separation" - when Flan talks about the 2nd grade art students:
 
"I remembered why I loved paintings in the first place, what got me into this. I thought... dreamt... remembered... how easy
it is for a painter to lose a painting. He paints and paints, works on a canvas for months, and then, one day, he loses it.
Loses the structure, loses the sense of it. You lose the painting. I remembered asking my kids' second-grade teacher:
'Why are all your students geniuses? Look at the first grade - blotches of green and black. The third grade - camouflage.
But your grade, the second grade, Matisses, every one. You've made my child a Matisse. Let me study with you.
Let me into the second grade. What is your secret?' 'I don't have any secret. I just know when to take their drawings
away from them.' "

which also reminded me of an interview with George Martin talking about the time he watched Picasso paint live
on television. At one point, Martin said to himself the painting was a masterpiece, but Picasso kept on painting
and the masterpiece was lost.

[OBLiO]

We have the right to argue/debate. However, the stupid jokes, the sarcastic comments based off of these theories are probably going to drive people away from this site.

Tobelman/Fishmonk probably want a universal understanding/belief of their theories, so I can see the right to argue/debate - however I think we can do without the jokes and un-friendly jibing that have been prevalent throughout the last few days.

Just my opinion.

In the mean time - SMiLE is being release later this year! YAY!!!! 

Rockin!

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

In the mean time - SMiLE is being release later this year! YAY!!!!

Yay!

[Boiled Egg]

Inductive reasoning is how my young daughter arrived at 'bringed,' 'runned' and 'thinked'. 

...........or how her Father arrived at "Boiled Egg".   

aww, that's cold.

Cold Boiled Egg? I feel a salad coming on.

[Bill Tobelman]

Things deductive reasoning has brought to the SMiLE table:

1) SMiLE is about the American saga. It also includes references to vegetables, wind chimes, and quotes British poets.

2) SMiLE may best be described as the sum of all Brian's intellectual endeavors at the time.

3) Brian Wilson acted in some extremely unpredictable ways during this era. He shelved the fire tapes, was paranoid after the movie SECONDS saying things about "mind gangsters," and a David Anderle painting of him caused Brian to go on an acid trip looking for meaning in the painting.

4) SMiLE is spiritual the way everything is spiritual. Dams are spiritual.

5) The creators of the work have always been straightforward about it.

6) David Leaf's claim that SMiLE was rumored to be a mind-blowing unified concept album and it is. The tracks flow into one another in a mind-blowing way.

Things silly inductive reasoning has insulted our table with:

1) SMiLE is a document of spiritual enlightenment. Its contents reference the spiritual experience through the use of multiple meanings.

2) All of Brian's intellectual endeavors reflected his spiritual experience and the desire to share that experience.

3) Brian' supposedly unpredictable episodes can be partly explained by the Zen riddle theory. The fire tapes were shelved because he was unsure about transmitting such an experience. His secrets during this era backfired when he saw them on the big screen in the film SECONDS. His belief in the possibilities of Zen like mind to mind transmission (or theft thereof) led to his "mind gangsters" comment. His Zen riddle (mysteries full of meaning) art is why he searched for the same in David Anderle's painting of him.

4) SMiLE documents the spiritual experience thought by many to be at the root of all religion.

5) As no one around Brian at the time of SMILE has ever come up with a clear explanation of the work and since no one in the history of all Beach Boys' literature, film, etc. has ever learned the location of Brain Wilson's self proclaimed "ultimate religious experience" it stands to reason that this was/and is being kept a secret.

6) David Leaf has no clue how mind-blowing this album was intended to be. This is a piece of psychedelic genius above all others.

[?]

This thread sucks.

[Dunderhead]

Yeah it really does. Some people are just so square.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Cold Boiled Egg? I feel a salad coming on

Don't think you're...cod...fillet...let's go for the buffet hee hee





Sorry...for some reason that popped in my head immediately. Been listening to a lot of Smiley Smile lately

[OBLiO]

I think my favorite tune on Smiley Smile is With Me Tonight... it would be cool if that was the chorus in Vega-Tables and
the early lyrics were flown in around the tennis flying off.. then go into With Me Tonight as a chorus and then into Vegetable
dialogue over the ba=ba-ba-ba da-da-da stuff with the whole song having that circus atmosphere like at the end of the
Smiley Smile version. Use the fast "letter" part early and finish it with the slow "letter" part. The circus feel at the end of
the Smiley Smile version really is great and way too short. Guess have to wait and see...

[Andrew G. Doe]

Things deductive reasoning has brought to the SMiLE table:

1) SMiLE is about the American saga. It also includes references to vegetables, wind chimes, and quotes British poets.

2) SMiLE may best be described as the sum of all Brian's intellectual endeavors at the time.

3) Brian Wilson acted in some extremely unpredictable ways during this era. He shelved the fire tapes, was paranoid after the movie SECONDS saying things about "mind gangsters," and a David Anderle painting of him caused Brian to go on an acid trip looking for meaning in the painting.

4) SMiLE is spiritual the way everything is spiritual. Dams are spiritual.

5) The creators of the work have always been straightforward about it.

6) David Leaf's claim that SMiLE was rumored to be a mind-blowing unified concept album and it is. The tracks flow into one another in a mind-blowing way.

1 - Partly Americana, pertly elemental, partly humor. Good mix.

2 - Change "intellectual endeavours" to "varied (and sometimes passing) interests" and you got my vote.  

3 - Brian's always been unpredictable: it just got... well, not 'worse' but... yeah, actually - worse.

4 - True, dat.

5 - The concept of VDP being straightforward is one I can't wrap my mind around, and Brian's views of the project are legendarily variable.

6 - David wasn't the first to put forward this theory. Nick Kent did in 1975, and I'm sure he appropriated that from someone else.  

Things silly inductive reasoning has insulted our table with:

1) SMiLE is a document of spiritual enlightenment. Its contents reference the spiritual experience through the use of multiple meanings.

2) All of Brian's intellectual endeavors reflected his spiritual experience and the desire to share that experience.

3) Brian' supposedly unpredictable episodes can be partly explained by the Zen riddle theory. The fire tapes were shelved because he was unsure about transmitting such an experience. His secrets during this era backfired when he saw them on the big screen in the film SECONDS. His belief in the possibilities of Zen like mind to mind transmission (or theft thereof) led to his "mind gangsters" comment. His Zen riddle (mysteries full of meaning) art is why he searched for the same in David Anderle's painting of him.

4) SMiLE documents the spiritual experience thought by many to be at the root of all religion.

5) As no one around Brian at the time of SMILE has ever come up with a clear explanation of the work and since no one in the history of all Beach Boys' literature, film, etc. has ever learned the location of Brain Wilson's self proclaimed "ultimate religious experience" it stands to reason that this was/and is being kept a secret.

6) David Leaf has no clue how mind-blowing this album was intended to be. This is a piece of psychedelic genius above all others.

1 - I see it as a document of spiritual exploration, necessarily incomplete, of course.

2 - Brian wanted to share his current interests, no question.

3 - Does the zen riddle theory explain other, much earlier, example of Brian's quirky nature, i.e. when he quit the football team in the middle of a game after he was sacked (I wonder... did he say "well that's enough of that !"), or the inclusion of the talk tracks on otherwise impeccable albums ?

4 - In my mind, Smile documents a man trying to achieve a new plateau of musical expression that encompasses his entire current experience. That his ambition exceeded his reach is by no means a total faliure.

5 - ... or possibly, because no-one knows/remembers: a door can be locked because the key is lost, not hidden.  Or maybe it's one of Brian's famous put-ons.

6 - no-one past mid 1967 had/has any idea, as all we're dealing with is unconnected and incomplete fragments (which, admittedly, are even in that state truly amazing pieces of music).

[Bill Tobelman]

Andrew said in response to my post:

Things silly inductive reasoning has insulted our table with:

1) SMiLE is a document of spiritual enlightenment. Its contents reference the spiritual experience through the use of multiple meanings.

2) All of Brian's intellectual endeavors reflected his spiritual experience and the desire to share that experience.

3) Brian' supposedly unpredictable episodes can be partly explained by the Zen riddle theory. The fire tapes were shelved because he was unsure about transmitting such an experience. His secrets during this era backfired when he saw them on the big screen in the film SECONDS. His belief in the possibilities of Zen like mind to mind transmission (or theft thereof) led to his "mind gangsters" comment. His Zen riddle (mysteries full of meaning) art is why he searched for the same in David Anderle's painting of him.

4) SMiLE documents the spiritual experience thought by many to be at the root of all religion.

5) As no one around Brian at the time of SMILE has ever come up with a clear explanation of the work and since no one in the history of all Beach Boys' literature, film, etc. has ever learned the location of Brain Wilson's self proclaimed "ultimate religious experience" it stands to reason that this was/and is being kept a secret.

6) David Leaf has no clue how mind-blowing this album was intended to be. This is a piece of psychedelic genius above all others.

1 - I see it as a document of spiritual exploration, necessarily incomplete, of course.

2 - Brian wanted to share his current interests, no question.

3 - Does the zen riddle theory explain other, much earlier, example of Brian's quirky nature, i.e. when he quit the football team in the middle of a game after he was sacked (I wonder... did he say "well that's enough of that !"), or the inclusion of the talk tracks on otherwise impeccable albums ?

4 - In my mind, Smile documents a man trying to achieve a new plateau of musical expression that encompasses his entire current experience. That his ambition exceeded his reach is by no means a total faliure.

5 - ... or possibly, because no-one knows/remembers: a door can be locked because the key is lost, not hidden.  Or maybe it's one of Brian's famous put-ons.

6 - no-one past mid 1967 had/has any idea, as all we're dealing with is unconnected and incomplete fragments (which, admittedly, are even in that state truly amazing pieces of music).

My response:

1) Your statement here tends to be vague. Both Brian's comments from 66-67 and Frank Holmes' comments from tho 90s on deal with Enlightenment ("...and 'two-step to lamp's light' is an idea of stepping to enlightenment, finding your way there."-Frank Holmes).

2) It's more than 'sharing your interests' Andrew. Why the exercise mats? Because health is an important ingredient in spiritual enlightenment. Why vegetables? Enlightenment. Why Zen riddle? Enlightenment.
"Shortly after this enlightening perception..."-BW, The BEAT
"...the joy of enlightenment..."-BW, Siegel article
"It's physical, really Zen right? The whole spiritual thing is physical."-BW, Siegel article
"Brian sought out enlightened people"-VDP

3) Why would the Zen riddle theory explain events prior to Brian's Zen riddle realization Andrew? That doesn't make sense. Also, consider the sandbox vis a vis the Surfing Saints article. Let's face it, Brian was trying to put his "ultimate religious experience" into the SMILE album.

4) See previous point. It didn't exceed his reach and your catch-all "current experience" phrase shows how you view this as varied while I show this as entirely focused.

5) We've learned about the SMILE era largely through the eyes of those there at the time. All of the 'outside looking in' points of view suggest an eclectic period without narrow focus. Suggesting it's actually the opposite (an opposite which totally validates Brian's comments to Tom Nolan regarding project focus: SPIRITUAL) also suggests that Brian was not tying it all together for the participants.
The idea that the creators would admit to the secret they were up to & have kept for 45 years simply because an interviewer asked the right question might be a little naive.

6) David Leaf has no idea because he is unfamiliar with the concepts at hand (LSD, enlightenment, Zen). These ideas were around in surf culture, beat culture, literature, and on television prior to & during the time of SMILE.

[Andrew G. Doe]

5) We've learned about the SMILE era largely through the eyes of those there at the time. All of the 'outside looking in' points of view suggest an eclectic period without narrow focus. Suggesting it's actually the opposite (an opposite which totally validates Brian's comments to Tom Nolan regarding project focus: SPIRITUAL) also suggests that Brian was not tying it all together for the participants.
The idea that the creators would admit to the secret they were up to & have kept for 45 years simply because an interviewer asked the right question might be a little naive.

Granted, this is from Wikidepia, but I feel it's a concise summation:

Conspiracy theory was originally a neutral descriptor for any claim of civil, criminal, or political conspiracy. However, it has become largely pejorative and used almost exclusively to refer to any fringe theory which explains a historical or current event as the result of a secret plot by conspirators of almost superhuman power and cunning.

Conspiracy theories are viewed with skepticism by scholars because they are rarely supported by any conclusive evidence and contrast with institutional analysis. The former speculates on the motives and actions of secretive coalitions of individuals while the latter focuses on people's collective behavior in publicly known institutions, as recorded in scholarly material and mainstream media reports, to explain historical or current events. Scholars argue that conspiracy theory goes beyond the boundaries of rational criticism when it becomes nonfalsifiable. Such a theory is a closed system of ideas which explains away contradictory evidence by claiming that the conspirators themselves planted it. The term “conspiracy theory” is therefore often used dismissively in an attempt to characterize a belief as outlandishly false and held by a person judged to be a crank or a group confined to the lunatic fringe. Such characterization is often the subject of dispute due to its possible unfairness and inaccuracy.

[hypehat]

My response Maimed by myself:

1) Your statement here tends to be vague. Both Brian's comments from 66-67 and Frank Holmes' comments from tho 90s on deal with Enlightenment ("...and 'two-step to lamp's light' is an idea of stepping to enlightenment, finding your way there."-Frank Holmes

In his own reading, sure. That may be what his drawings, done largely without Brian's involvement, signify. And that's one intrepetation.).

2) It's more than 'sharing your interests' Andrew. Why the exercise mats? Because he was rich and impulsive. Never mind the fact no-one used them. IT'S ALL PART OF THE PLAN..

Why vegetables? Enlightenment The dude admitted himself he didn't practice what he preached, but of course we can't believe him.

Why Zen riddle? Because you say so, which is not necessarily the same thing as 'because it's true.

YOU'RE DOING IT AGAIN. Those quotes are divorced from proper context, they could be anything. For instance....

"Shortly after this enlightening perception...Mike started killing prostitutes, so I really don't think LSD is right for everybody"-BW, The BEAT
"My god, does...the joy of enlightenment...bore me to tears. I prefer baseball, honestly"-BW, Siegel article
"It's physical, really Zen right? The whole spiritual thing is physical. Oh wait, I know this one. This is right after he claims swimming is spiritual, isn't it. Which doesn't really sound like a Zen mastermind to me, so I can see why you left the prior sentence out."-BW, Siegel article
"Brian sought out enlightened people.... And he found me. Be careful what you wish for...."-VDP

See? Even without my bitchy asides, they still don't say much. I said 'Enlighten me' to someone not two hours ago. Was that a invitation for my friend to turn my life into a Zen Riddle? Am I cosmically conscious? No. But divorced from context, you would say I am.


3) Why would the Zen riddle theory explain events prior to Brian's Zen riddle realization Andrew? That doesn't make sense. Also, consider the sandbox vis a vis the Surfing Saints article. Let's face it, Brian was trying to put his "ultimate religious experience" into the SMILE album.

I fail to see the leap of 'Sandpit in the living room = absolute proof of zen'. Unless you want to mail me the Surfing Saints article

I haven't read the Leaf (I can never find it anywhere), so can't comment on that. And I personally think the whole 'they're not telling' schtick is bloody ridiculous. Good going disregarding primary sources whenever it suits you. Brian tells you everything - from titles and in-depth song meanings, to the very nature of his 'spiritual' beliefs -  in the Siegel or Nolan articles, just not the fact it's all a Zen Riddle. That would be giving things away! Please.

[Dunderhead]

any fringe theory which explains a historical or current event as the result of a secret plot by conspirators of almost superhuman power and cunning.

My Lord, he read a couple of books and appreciated them, he's a regular superman.

[Bill Tobelman]

Andrew,
Arthur Koestler's book THE ACT OF CREATION: A Study of the Conscious and Unconscious Process in Humor, Scientific Discovery and Art proves that my conspiracy theory is correct. And get this, it's Brian's bio's accounts of his LSD trips which allowed me to see the truth.

Enjoy!

[bgas]

Andrew,
Arthur Koestler's book THE ACT OF CREATION: A Study of the Conscious and Unconscious Process in Humor, Scientific Discovery and Art proves that my conspiracy theory is correct. And get this, it's Brian's bio's accounts of his LSD trips which allowed me to see the truth.

Enjoy!

You two are a trip in yourselves.  Keep it up, it's much better than flashbacks!

[Bill Tobelman]

Wow. There's no other album on the level of SMiLE. Holy Cow!

[18thofMay]

Wow. There's no other album on the level of SMiLE. Holy Cow!

ENOUGH...Get off the gear!!!

[Bill Tobelman]

Sorry but The Act Of Creation is like the E=MC2 of record albums. I'm not kidding. This is serious genius.

[Mike's Beard]

Does anybody else think this thread has decended into stoner hell?

[Andrew G. Doe]

Andrew,
Arthur Koestler's book THE ACT OF CREATION: A Study of the Conscious and Unconscious Process in Humor, Scientific Discovery and Art proves that my conspiracy theory is correct. And get this, it's Brian's bio's accounts of his LSD trips which allowed me to see the truth.

Enjoy!

You two are a trip in yourselves.  Keep it up, it's much better than flashbacks!

Cheaper, too.