SMiLE Sessions box set!

[18thofMay]

Thank you linesman thank you ball boys...

[Bill Tobelman]

Andrew, my post honestly was meant along the lines of deductive reasoning and inductive reasoning. My old college philosophy book The Way Of Words was used to brush up on things. Inductive reasoning always involves a "leap of faith" to a degree while deductive reasoning does not. When I used "best available answer" it was to say that this is often what inductive reasoning may provide...but it is in no way conclusive.

Here are a few passages from Watt's The Way Of Zen. Frank Holmes mentioned this book to me years ago.

"Thus if 'Zen' is to be translated at all, the nearest equivalent is 'Enlightenment'..."

"There is a tradition that Zen originated at the moment when the Buddha attained his supreme insight into the mysteries of life that night at Gaya in the Fifth Century B.C. That insight was handed down through a line of twenty-eight Patriarchs until it came to a certain Bodhidharma, who brought Zen to China in the Sixth Century A.D. Legends say that this insight was passed from one to the other without any intermediary of scriptures or doctrinal teaching; it was a 'direct transmission', a communication which passed immediately from mind to mind, understandable only by that person who was far enough developed to grasp his master's Enlightenment. While this 'Secret Message' was being carried on...."

I understand that you have to believe what Brian & Van Dyke say but I still maintain that they are being true to their vision by denying Zen.

As you can see the 28 smiles in the SMiLE Shop correspond to the 28 Patriarchs of Zen (and now you know that Fran Holmes knew about this source book).

And we both know that you discredit any of the Zen passages in Wouldn't It Be Nice as that is not considered a reliable source of information. It makes little difference if those passages can be backed up to a degree by other sources. You discard them altogether. It matters not that they can be used to explain a wide all encompassing variety of SMiLE phenomena, you strike them from the record.

But it seems to an inductive reasoner that even if one were to find the probable secret of SMiLE in the pattern of raindrops---that still has value by virtue of its high degree of confirmation of SMILE phenomena.

[Jonas]

f***, why can't this just come out already so I can stop coming to the board and start listening.

[Andrew G. Doe]

And we both know that you discredit any of the Zen passages in Wouldn't It Be Nice as that is not considered a reliable source of information. It makes little difference if those passages can be backed up to a degree by other sources. You discard them altogether. It matters not that they can be used to explain a wide all encompassing variety of SMiLE phenomena, you strike them from the record.

No - I discredit everything in WIBN-MOS that wasn't stolen from other authors in the first half, and pretty much all of the second half.  Brian has admitted in court that all he did for the book was a few hours of interviews (and I have it from an excellent source that the vast majority of his answers in those interviews were either "yes", "no" or "I don't remember": Gold tacitly conceded this when he justified his plagiarism by saying he had to flesh out Brian's responses) and, to open the book at random, does this sound like Brian Wilson circa 1990 to you ?

"My fears were interpreted as heavily dramatised ploys for attention. The convoluted theories of life I expounded, intricate plans I constantly devised in order to survive, like the meaning of fear and how to deal with it, were not even listened to" (p. 174, original US hardback)

Inductive reasoning always involves a "leap of faith" to a degree while deductive reasoning does not.

Again, the condescension: I, and others like me who base our researches on the nuts and bolts, cannot aspire to inductive reasoning because by virtue of our very nature, we can't make this leap of faith. Indulge me for a moment: suppose this required leap of yours is later proven to be spurious. What then ?

[Andrew G. Doe]

foder, why can't this just come out already so I can stop coming to the board and start listening.

No argument here ! 

[buddhahat]

As you can see the 28 smiles in the SMiLE Shop correspond to the 28 Patriarchs of Zen (and now you know that Fran Holmes knew about this source book).

Sorry Bill, but in response to the above I couldn't resist quoting myself from a few pages back:

It's a bit like the trick where someone tells you that the no. 28 is everywhere. Once the no. 28 is in your head, all you start seeing is that one number. But it's just a case of selective perception.

Spooky, eh?!

And I can count 32 Smiles, including the little ones on top of the objects in the left hand window. I think you're seeing what you want to see with this zen theory, although I have to say you have created a fascinating corner of Smile mythology for which I'm grateful.

[The Shift]

I think we might have had the 7-minute version of Hero Zen Villains.

[guitarfool2002]

That "Fusion" excerpt, specifically the statement that with the Smile cover Brian got "exactly what he wanted, precisely what he wanted...", with the underlying theme being humor, would seem to be as definitive a statement as one that close to Brian could make in 1968-69 about something Smile-related. So add my "Amen" to the chorus! If that's what Brian wanted then include it in a historical packaging, that's a no-brainer.

With a caveat - At what point does the intent of the hired artist (Frank Holmes) take precedent over the wishes of his employer/contractor (Brian Wilson)? Or another way of saying that might be if Frank were contracted to design a cover and he did include certain symbolism within the design which were his and his alone, what difference does it make to the overall project if his employer (Brian) didn't know (or care) about that but was satisfied with the overall finished product as Brian "got exactly what he wanted" with that cover?

Anyone in the know: Did Frank Holmes actually sit down and discuss this design with Brian in 1966, or was he working from information he got through his conversations with Van Dyke Parks exclusively? I got the impression Frank's liaison for the project was Van Dyke.

[The Shift]

That "Fusion" excerpt, specifically the statement that with the Smile cover Brian got "exactly what he wanted, precisely what he wanted...", with the underlying theme being humor, would seem to be as definitive a statement as one that close to Brian could make in 1968-69 about something Smile-related. So add my "Amen" to the chorus! If that's what Brian wanted then include it in a historical packaging, that's a no-brainer.

With a caveat - At what point does the intent of the hired artist (Frank Holmes) take precedent over the wishes of his employer/contractor (Brian Wilson)? Or another way of saying that might be if Frank were contracted to design a cover and he did include certain symbolism within the design which were his and his alone, what difference does it make to the overall project if his employer (Brian) didn't know (or care) about that but was satisfied with the overall finished product as Brian "got exactly what he wanted" with that cover?

Anyone in the know: Did Frank Holmes actually sit down and discuss this design with Brian in 1966, or was he working from information he got through his conversations with Van Dyke Parks exclusively? I got the impression Frank's liaison for the project was Van Dyke.

I think it doesn't matter -  Frank's art was integrated in the smile package was was Van Dykes. I doubt Brian understood every piece of word play that Van Dyke employed, but he instinctively knew it was right that that kind of interaction was taking place. He brought it together, he was the catalyst, the producer.

IMHO.

If he was going to dictate every blob of paint on canvas to Frank, then he might as well have done the artwork himself, as he did for MV&F on Holland, and on his 1988 solo single.  We often forget about Brian the dauber!

IMHO.

[guitarfool2002]

That "Fusion" excerpt, specifically the statement that with the Smile cover Brian got "exactly what he wanted, precisely what he wanted...", with the underlying theme being humor, would seem to be as definitive a statement as one that close to Brian could make in 1968-69 about something Smile-related. So add my "Amen" to the chorus! If that's what Brian wanted then include it in a historical packaging, that's a no-brainer.

With a caveat - At what point does the intent of the hired artist (Frank Holmes) take precedent over the wishes of his employer/contractor (Brian Wilson)? Or another way of saying that might be if Frank were contracted to design a cover and he did include certain symbolism within the design which were his and his alone, what difference does it make to the overall project if his employer (Brian) didn't know (or care) about that but was satisfied with the overall finished product as Brian "got exactly what he wanted" with that cover?

Anyone in the know: Did Frank Holmes actually sit down and discuss this design with Brian in 1966, or was he working from information he got through his conversations with Van Dyke Parks exclusively? I got the impression Frank's liaison for the project was Van Dyke.

I think it doesn't matter -  Frank's art was integrated in the smile package was was Van Dykes. I doubt Brian understood every piece of word play that Van Dyke employed, but he instinctively knew it was right that that kind of interaction was taking place. He brought it together, he was the catalyst, the producer.

IMHO.

If he was going to dictate every blob of paint on canvas to Frank, then he might as well have done the artwork himself, as he did for MV&F on Holland, and on his 1988 solo single.  We often forget about Brian the dauber!

IMHO.

That was my feeling as well, as in how much does or did it matter in the grand scheme if Frank was including cryptic messages in his artwork, if Brian as producer had the ultimate say and veto power over all of it including Van Dyke's lyrics, and according to Vosse again it was exactly what he wanted.

However I think it is important to consider how little interaction there was between Brian and Frank Holmes when there are things Frank may have thought about the design which had little to do with where Brian was going with it as part of the packaging. Brian could have wanted the cover design for a radically different reason than either Frank or Van Dyke. Same with the lyrics.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Anyone in the know: Did Frank Holmes actually sit down and discuss this design with Brian in 1966, or was he working from information he got through his conversations with Van Dyke Parks exclusively? I got the impression Frank's liaison for the project was Van Dyke.

Frank's sketches for the booklet were based on lyrics supplied to him by Brian & Van Dyke. The shop itself was entirely Frank's idea: the only brief he had for the cover from Brian was that it had to be "comic" (or did he mishear Brian saying "cosmic" ?  ). He showed Brian a rough Smile shop sketch and Brian loved it. By Frank's own admission, there was no brief for anything else than "comic".

Ah, but of course I forget - he's lying to maintain the zen mystery. Always remember this: if any of the major participants fails to mention a zen influence, or even flatly denies it, they're lying.

[Boiled Egg]

Inductive reasoning is how my young daughter arrived at 'bringed,' 'runned' and 'thinked'.  Hate to be unhelpful, but it does amply illustrate a point.

[The Shift]

Ah, and numbers such as onety, twoty, threety, forty, fivety, sixty, seventy, eighty, ninety, tenty…

[Mikie]

Inductive reasoning is how my young daughter arrived at 'bringed,' 'runned' and 'thinked'. 

...........or how her Father arrived at "Boiled Egg".   

[bgas]

Inductive reasoning is how my young daughter arrived at 'bringed,' 'runned' and 'thinked'. 

...........or how her Father arrived at "Boiled Egg".   

aww, that's cold.

[Mikie]

Nah, I put a smiley face up there to let him know I was kidding.  Sometimes I wonder where some posters on this board get their names. 

"Bgas", for example. WTF??  Insert a vowel between the "B" and "g" and "g" and "a" and whatia get?

"Bigass".   Ah Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha!         Ha! 

Hey, no offense!  I put a smiley face up there. Bgas!

[pixletwin]

OT:

I always see "Bigas" which means "rice" in filipino.

[bgas]

deleted

[Mikie]

It's called "balut", Bgas.

And I'm gonna need a couple of baluts just to stay 'up' with all those Asian women in that link!

[Dunderhead]

Brian was prone to flights of fancy. Anything you think might have influenced him was just a lark that he was only interested in for a couple of hours.

[bgas]

It's called "balut", Bgas.

And I'm gonna need a couple of baluts just to stay 'up' with all those Asian women in that link!

it's actually spelled, corrctly it seems, "a lot"  of different ways, which also includes baloot. I can't even imagine eating it, tho.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Brian was prone to flights of fancy. Anything you think might have influenced him was just a lark that he was only interested in for a couple of hours.

As I pointed out some 36 hours ago. 

[Mikie]

It's actually spelled, corrctly it seems, "a lot"  of different ways, which also includes baloot.

Bgas, just confirmed the correct spelling with the girlfriend, who is from Pangasinan. She says it's "Balut."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balut_(egg)

[Mikie]

Back on topic, boys!!!  Sorry.

[Dunderhead]

I don't think Brian was smart enough to be influenced by things.