SMiLE Sessions box set!

[Andrew G. Doe]

If Van Dyke were referring to an official Grange Association he would have capitalized grange.

Why ? According to your previously stated theories, that would have given the game away: dissemination and obfuscation was the order of the day.  C'mon Bill, let's have a little consistency here - you make the rules, fine, but you have to stick with them if you do.

[Mikie]

The fact that you can derive different meanings from these SMiLE lyrics is exactly the point. Mysteries full of meaning.

The lyrics can have many different meanings if you want them to. Other than the Beatles lyrics (Lucy In The Sky for example) and others, it's been fun the past 40 years reading fan's interpretations of the lyrics. I think even more than the Beatles, Smile by itself has undergone sooooooooooooo much speculation over the years, and to me it has been fun, but lately it's the same ol' and it's boring.

Like I said above, Brian and Van Dyke have both 'interpreted' the lyrics for us. But some fans insist there is further meaning to them - that there's still secrets that have never been divulged. It's speculation, and much of it falls flat. Just like the Paul Is Dead rumor with the Abbey Rd. cover as evidence. And not just the music - there must be something else to Frank Holme's artwork. To others, there was something suspicious or sinister going on. And to yet others, the more dope they smoke, the more they hear inside the music and lyrics.  I know, I was one of the dope smokers back in the early 80's and INSISTED to friends and family (even with the minimal bootlegs to listen to) that SMiLE would have blown away Sgt. Pepper's!

K, I'm done. Carry on, chaps and blokes!

[Mahalo]

INSISTED to friends and family (even with the minimal bootlegs to listen to) that SMiLE would have blown away Sgt. Pepper's!

Have you changed your stance?

[Mikie]

I don't know anymore.  You know, there's so much more Smile stuff that has come out since I first heard about 30 minutes of it on a cassette in the late 70's. Parts have trickled out little by little over the years and it has only gotten better and better. If it were finished, I believe it would have beaten Pet Sounds and maybe........just maybe, Sgt. Pepper's. It's tough to say. Sgt. Pepper's was/is SO DAMN GOOD. But so was SMiLE, albeit unfinished. But for '66 and '67, yeah, Smile woulda been a strong contender for album of the year.

I've gone through and dissected SMiLE so much over the years, I feel like what Brian said about it. You just get so into it and after awhile you get so beside it and.........you just chuck it. Or something like that, I forgot the quote.

[Mahalo]

I don't know anymore.  You know, there's so much more Smile stuff that has come out since I first heard about 30 minutes of it on a cassette in the late 70's. Parts have trickled out little by little over the years and it has only gotten better and better. If it were finished, I believe it would have beaten Pet Sounds and maybe........just maybe, Sgt. Pepper's. It's tough to say. Sgt. Pepper's was/is SO DAMN GOOD. But so was SMiLE, albeit unfinished. But for '66 and '67, yeah, Smile woulda been a strong contender for album of the year.

I've gone through and dissected SMiLE so much over the years, I feel like what Brian said about it. You just get so into it and after awhile you get so beside it and.........you just chuck it. Or something like that, I forgot the quote.

One of fav quotes...works for any art. I wasn't around back in those crazy days of the 60's, but I have to surmise that SPLHCB might have been more of an immediate hit while SMiLE might have had a longer impact, like Pet Sounds. SP has Within You/Without You, a very spiritual song, but I don't think it was as "spiritual" as SMiLE. Listening to the SMiLE material I feel more heightened on that level. However, that just might be true with the BB's use of counter-melodies and instrumental arrangements. Who knows.

I will say this, that in 92-93 when I was 12-ish I heard SPLHCB being played upstairs by my older brother and was instantly changed. Forever. Those first 4 songs "Tore My Head Off!"

[Bill Tobelman]

Yesterday I offended a few people with a post of mine. Sorry. It was meant to show the dichotomy in SMiLE viewpoints.

What I should have done is simply asked for explanations of Frank Holmes' comment. So that's what I'm going to do.

What does Mr. Holmes mean by the following:

"The SMiLE Shop is a paradox. The drawing is a surrealistic idea; a visual that is not accessible in conscious reality."

Is is quote off topic? Is is right on topic? What's your take SMILE fans???

[18thofMay]

Um.. You cant go into a shop and buy smiles! But you can go into a shop and purchase something that will make you smile!!!

[bgas]

Um.. You cant go into a shop and buy smiles! But you can go into a shop and purchase something that will make you smile!!!

Consider a trip to your dentist's "shop" where he/she sells new smiles

[drbeachboy]

My dentist office is called Simply Beautiful Smiles. They use a very similar Smile cover mouth and teeth.

[18thofMay]

Like I said you cannot go into a shop and buy smiles. You can go to a shop or in your case a Dentist and have your teeth fixed that may encourage you to smile more, the dentist does not make you smile. They mave even sell you new teeth but not a new smile!!

[Dunderhead]

*disclaimer notice. yes everything I say is "my opinion", lets not have that old discussion again.*

geeze no.
the smile is a metaphor (though there is something funny about it being a dentist, like this was the ultimate puton "music for a dentist's office"), a smile is a trip. You might say a trip, is sorta like it's own hangup, like a dream, a song or poem, a work of art, a riddle, or as a koan, all those things are trips and so is a smile, a smile is a trip too.

Brian was so referential on this album, to all types of "traditional" american music that you can scarcely call it rock and roll. Its more like post-modern classical or something like that. Brian references so much of this music you can imagine the smile shop as a record store and smile as sort of browsing through a random stack of 45s you picked up. The lyrics are so referential and literary they in themselves are like browsing through a book store.

The smile shop could also be a restaurant, a healthy la restaurant or a not-so healthy place like Dalores'. Or we could be talking a movie theater, going in for a western, or seeing some cartoons.

The whole concept of SMiLE is that it's a celebration of all the little things in life (including drugs), the stuff that just makes you happy and makes life worth living, music, books, comedy, food. It's a way of telling people not to be so hung up on things, to just enjoy themselves. To me that's a message that many faiths preach. It's the concept from Surf's Up of becoming a child, becoming a child in the world and just playing and enjoying yourself. I mean break that phrase down "enjoying your self", enjoying your experience as a human being. Brian thought you had to let go of your ego to do this. That's what he means on Hang On To Your Ego. You gotta become one with the world and get rid of your hang ups. It's very spiritual, and whether or not was intended as such, naturally alloys with zen. But I do really think Brian was aware of this. He read Alan Watts. And I think that really says everything regarding this whole debate. You people who deny the importance of this link, you are counting on the fact that Brian, did not understand the books he was reading. Brian was up on this stuff, these books were being newly published in 1966, he sought them out and read them. This was clearly something he was interested in, this was something he enthusiastically pursued. He read them, he understood them, and SMiLE so clearly demonstrates their influence I think no further argument is necessary.

[18thofMay]

geeze no.
the smile is a metaphor (though there is something funny about it being a dentist, like this was the ultimate puton "music for a dentist's office"), a smile is a trip. You might say a trip, is sorta like it's own hangup, like a dream, a song or poem, a work of art, a riddle, or as a koan, all those things are trips and so is a smile, a smile is a trip too.

Brian was so referential on this album, to all types of "traditional" american music that you can scarcely call it rock and roll. Its more like post-modern classical or something like that. Brian references so much of this music you can imagine the smile shop as a record store and smile as sort of browsing through a random stack of 45s you picked up. The lyrics are so referential and literary they in themselves are like browsing through a book store.

The smile shop could also be a restaurant, a healthy la restaurant or a not-so healthy place like Dalores'. Or we could be talking a movie theater, going in for a western, or seeing some cartoons.

The whole concept of SMiLE is that it's a celebration of all the little things in life (including drugs), the stuff that just makes you happy and makes life worth living, music, books, comedy, food. It's a way of telling people not to be so hung up on things, to just enjoy themselves. To me that's a message that many faiths preach. It's the concept from Surf's Up of becoming a child, becoming a child in the world and just playing and enjoying yourself. I mean break that phrase down "enjoying your self", enjoying your experience as a human being. Brian thought you had to let go of your ego to do this. That's what he means on Hang On To Your Ego. You gotta become one with the world and get rid of your hang ups. It's very spiritual, and whether or not was intended as such, naturally alloys with zen. But I do really think Brian was aware of this. He read Alan Watts. And I think that really says everything regarding this whole debate. You people who deny the importance of this link, you are counting on the fact that Brian, did not understand the books he was reading. Brian was up on this stuff, these books were being newly published in 1966, he sought them out and read them. This was clearly something he was interested in, this was something he enthusiastically pursued. He read them, he understood them, and SMiLE so clearly demonstrates their influence I think no further argument is necessary.

Here we go again...

[Dunderhead]

Go buy a copy of the Joyous Cosmology, and read it. Brian read this book. What do you think, he just read 2 pages and threw it away? You're placing yourself on the high ground, as the more reasonable and level headed, but that's not a counter-argument. You are confusing reasonableness with simpleness, a reasonable man would affirm a more sophisticated model if it better suited the data. No one who considers the Earth to be flat is ever thought of as more reasonable because that model doesn't rely on the assumption of gravity. The idea of the "Hip" SMiLE is much more reflective of Brian's literary interests, it takes into account Brian's language use, it explains why SMiLE is titled that. It's a better theory.

[18thofMay]

Go buy a copy of the Joyous Cosmology, and read it. Brian read this book. What do you think, he just read 2 pages and threw it away? You're placing yourself on the high ground, as the more reasonable and level headed, but that's not a counter-argument. You are confusing reasonableness with simpleness, a reasonable man would affirm a more sophisticated model if it better suited the data. No one who considers the Earth to be flat is ever thought of as more reasonable because that model doesn't rely on the assumption of gravity. The idea of the "Hip" SMiLE is much more reflective of Brian's literary interests, it takes into account Brian's language use, it explains why SMiLE is titled that. It's a better theory.

Here is what I think....
Yes Brian read the Joyous Cosmology, he read allot of other informative thought evoking literature throughout his growth as a an artist. I believe creatively Brian absorbed allot of material and transferred it to his creative vice (music). He absorbed melody from Gershwin and others, he absorbed harmony from the Four Freshmen and others etc etc. Brian was an artist who was part of and very instrumental in an explosion of creative and artistic advancement in not only music but thought as well. Education and advancement of ones self is a about absorbing information and or facts and formulating your thoughts, beliefs and actions as best suits your understanding of that educational process. Yes Brian expanded his mind through drugs and information but did he write music to serve this new found ideal. In my opinion NO. Smile was soaked in the times, a spiritual awakening!! It was not an ode to drugs, zen interpretations and the other agenda's being peddled around here!! Yes Brian had read about many things, have you heard his mutterings about the universe? Hardly world shattering stuff more like astronomy/astrology 101.
Some search for answers and look for clues to a different place or meaning. Others look within to their heart and spirit. My opinion is that Brian was not engaging Van Dyke , The wrecking crew and The Beach Boys to write an ode to the counter culture, drugs and zen interpretations, he was engaging them to enhance his awakening as a man, to highlight his ability as an artist and to present his vision of what American cultural evolution was and that makes me want to SMiLE!!

[OBLiO]

Found a couple interesting tidbits:

in 1892, a "...former San Bernardino City engineer...  went to Victorville and helped get the desert land owners organized and file an action in the courts preventing the "Arrowhead Reservoir Company" from diverting any of the desert watershed to San Bernardino." - http://bigbear.us/arrow.html

I started out by looking for an Eliza Tibbet's and the naval orange connection from Riverside to Arrowhead.
Instead the dispute was over the water from Arrowhead going to Apple Valley instead of San Bernardino
or Riverside.

Roy Rogers and Dale Evans made Apple Valley their home.
Highway 18 in Apple Valley is called Happy Trails. It was named after the song written by Dale Evans.
Roy Rogers was in a group called The Sons of the Pioneers and they recorded the songs "Cool Water"
and "Home on the Range". Roy Rogers was also a square dance caller.
A Cotillion is a square dance... "cotillion squared"
from wiki "In 1885, the railroad came northward through the Cajon Pass and established a train stop,
calling it Victor(Victorville) on the Mojave River"
from wiki "Victorville boomed as the commercial center of the area with gold refineries, quarries, dance halls
and saloons, while Apple Valley remained more pastoral with ranches and apple orchards."
Highway 18 does run through Big Bear and the Arrowhead area, as well, and is also known as Rim of the World Highway. There was a narrow gauge steam railway that ran along Highway 18 in Arrowhead.

grange is french for farm or granary or barn, but I also found this:
GRANGE PATRONS OF HUSBANDRY CALIFORNIA, VICTORVILLE California

humming "if I were a peddler... the first thing that I'd like to cockadewdle-dooooooooo......"
singing "I'd rather be the cobbler than the nail... yes I wood... I surely wooooooood...."
yodeling "I love you most of alllllll... my favorite Vega-Table"

[Andrew G. Doe]

Brian was - and is - prone to whims.  Wants to get fit: installs a gym in his living room.  Can't buy a telescope (or a ping-pong table, I forget which) at three in the morning: let's open a 24-hour shop for same.  Decides healthy eating is the way: let's turn the grounds of the house into a vegetable garden, Marilyn can sell the produce to people driving by.  I'm sure that for a short, intense, period of time, Brian was entranced by what Tony Asher (who was far more worldly) referred to as "the marsh-mallow mystics" (for the record, I read them all in college and was similarly entranced, notably by The Little Prince: read it again some 25 years later, and found it to be, politely, exceedingly twee).  I'm equally sure that after a few days/weeks, he tired of them and moved on to something else. Brian works best at speed, in short bursts, on the fly and prepared to depart from such gameplan as he has to hand.  To sit down and consciously plan an extended piece or project based on one complex topic runs counter to his nature.  Smile changed direction more than once before mutating into Smiley Smile, hence it's chock-full of musical, literary and cultural references, but it's less a planned collection than the result of a fascinated child running around on a beach and picking up pebbles, seaweed, shells, glass floats, anything that takes his fancy. The song list reflects that.

That's my (semi-informed) opinion. Your mileage may differ.

[OBLiO]

Brian was - and is - prone to whims.  Wants to get fit: installs a gym in his living room.  Can't buy a telescope (or a ping-pong table, I forget which) at three in the morning: let's open a 24-hour shop for same.  Decides healthy eating is the way: let's turn the grounds of the house into a vegetable garden, Marilyn can sell the produce to people driving by.  I'm sure that for a short, intense, period of time, Brian was entranced by what Tony Asher (who was far more worldly) referred to as "the marsh-mallow mystics" (for the record, I read them all in college and was similarly entranced, notably by The Little Prince: read it again some 25 years later, and found it to be, politely, exceedingly twee).  I'm equally sure that after a few days/weeks, he tired of them and moved on to something else. Brian works best at speed, in short bursts, on the fly and prepared to depart from such gameplan as he has to hand.  To sit down and consciously plan an extended piece or project based on one complex topic runs counter to his nature.  Smile changed direction more than once before mutating into Smiley Smile, hence it's chock-full of musical, literary and cultural references, but it's less a planned collection than the result of a fascinated child running around on a beach and picking up pebbles, seaweed, shells, glass floats, anything that takes his fancy. The song list reflects that.

That's my (semi-informed) opinion. Your mileage may differ.

I agree and I think Van Dyke was the glue holding the pebbles, seaweed, shells, glass floats
and the fancy together.

Also, btw, from one of your earlier posts, I have only seen low resolution scans of all the other artwork
Frank Holmes drew. other than Vega-Tables. I am really late to the SMiLE party, and have found alot of what
used to be around is no longer there, including "in their words" interviews. I am especially interested
in the interviews Brian gave to the UK (journalist or reporter?) and The Cheetah Articles. On a personal note,
I have found Brian Wilson to be pretty tough but with a heart of gold, based on what I have seen or
read, so far. I think he learned something about survival from playing sports in high school.

I read alot of that stuff too but I believe the counter culture is as much destructive as it is productive.
Much creativity spawned, but... all I can say is most of  the New Age stuff floating around is more about money
than enlightment as far as what I have encountered. I don't fault anyone for delving into self discovery
or into to alternate universes. It will be cool to hear what they release and would be great if Brian and Van Dyke
make the record they wanted to make back then just for the sake of putting it into it's correct context.
I am a fan of BWPS as well as Smiley Smile btw, so it's all good.

[Bill Tobelman]

Last night I asked for explanations of Frank Holmes' comment regarding his SMiLE art. The few comments that were made were entertaining and much appreciated. Wish there were more.

As you may have guessed my take on Frank's comment fits into my usual viewpoint. Frank Holmes stated:

"The SMiLE Shop is a paradox. The drawing is a surrealistic idea; a visual that is not accessible in conscious reality."

Based upon the viewpoint that SMILE is comparable to a Zen riddle the first thing to mention is that Zen riddles appear paradoxical to the unenlightened.

The SMiLE Shop paradox has to do with the perspective of the drawing. The "tiles" on the sidewalk outside the shop are not drawn in the same perspective as is the shop itself.

The idea is that if the listener to the Zen riddle album achieves enlightenment then they are no longer in the state of conscious reality. The album has served a go between conscious reality & enlightenment.

And the SMiLE Shop album cover now shows that the shop actually sits atop the "tiles." The tiles would therefore represent the enlightened state of mind. The SMiLE Shop is now seen as your go between conscious reality & enlightenment. There is no paradox.

The Shop and the Zen riddle/album are both doors and windows to enlightenment. In this way the SMiLE Shop cover art is the perfect fit for SMiLE.

[TdHabib]

Oblio?? Ladies and gentlemen we have a Nilsson fan!!

[Andrew G. Doe]

Last night I asked for explanations of Frank Holmes' comment regarding his SMiLE art. The few comments that were made were entertaining and much appreciated. Wish there were more.

As you may have guessed my take on Frank's comment fits into my usual viewpoint. Frank Holmes stated:

"The SMiLE Shop is a paradox. The drawing is a surrealistic idea; a visual that is not accessible in conscious reality."

Based upon the viewpoint that SMILE is comparable to a Zen riddle the first thing to mention is that Zen riddles appear paradoxical to the unenlightened.

The SMiLE Shop paradox has to do with the perspective of the drawing. The "tiles" on the sidewalk outside the shop are not drawn in the same perspective as is the shop itself.

The idea is that if the listener to the Zen riddle album achieves enlightenment then they are no longer in the state of conscious reality. The album has served a go between conscious reality & enlightenment.

And the SMiLE Shop album cover now shows that the shop actually sits atop the "tiles." The tiles would therefore represent the enlightened state of mind. The SMiLE Shop is now seen as your go between conscious reality & enlightenment. There is no paradox.

The Shop and the Zen riddle/album are both doors and windows to enlightenment. In this way the SMiLE Shop cover art is the perfect fit for SMiLE.

Or... Frank Holmes was influenced by the group of Chicago imagists known as The Hairy Who, known for their grotesquerie and surrealism, and for applying cartoon techniques to fine art.  Here's what Frank has to say about the shop:

"I was trying to find another way to approach art," he says, "like the drawings I did as a child. I was trying to do my work in that fashion, spontaneous, no retakes, no seconds. I was looking for a fresh, alive quality I wanted in my work...  I wanted it to look turn of the century American. I used the storefront format, which was an idea I got while taking a walk one Sunday morning in Pasadena. I came upon a wooden storefront with nothing in the windows but some small display platforms. In the background were some faded green velvet café curtains hanging midway from curtain rods. The store looked as if it had gone out of business years before. This was my inspirational starting point for the cover. The sign at the top of the store is a double image representing smiles, and the water of the ocean. The ‘Open’ sign on the door is intended to be a positive statement as an invitation to the music. The SMiLE Shop is a paradox. The drawing is a surrealistic idea; a visual that is not accessible in conscious reality …”

Notice how Bill took the final two sentences in isolation and, once again, presented them out of context. That's why the perspective is skewed - because Frank was drawing it as a child would.

[bgas]

Let's be Friends

[Bill Tobelman]

Andrew G. Doe quoted Frank Holmes and added some comments:

"I was trying to find another way to approach art," he says, "like the drawings I did as a child. I was trying to do my work in that fashion, spontaneous, no retakes, no seconds. I was looking for a fresh, alive quality I wanted in my work...  I wanted it to look turn of the century American. I used the storefront format, which was an idea I got while taking a walk one Sunday morning in Pasadena. I came upon a wooden storefront with nothing in the windows but some small display platforms. In the background were some faded green velvet café curtains hanging midway from curtain rods. The store looked as if it had gone out of business years before. This was my inspirational starting point for the cover. The sign at the top of the store is a double image representing smiles, and the water of the ocean. The ‘Open’ sign on the door is intended to be a positive statement as an invitation to the music. The SMiLE Shop is a paradox. The drawing is a surrealistic idea; a visual that is not accessible in conscious reality …”

Notice how Bill took the final two sentences in isolation and, once again, presented them out of context. That's why the perspective is skewed - because Frank was drawing it as a child would.

Okay Andrew, the balls in your court. Please explain how The SMILE shop is "a paradox....a visual that is not accessable in conscious reality" given the full breadth of Mr. Holmes' quote.

[pixletwin]

Sounds like the kind of comment an artist would say to validate his art without actually meaning anything.   

[Mikie]

I gotta contact Frank Holmes and encourage him to read this thread.  I'm sure it will provide him with some entertaining reading!



Oh yeah, P.S.

Both "alot" and "allot" are not words in the English language, people!!

The Spelling Police.

[drbeachboy]

Actually, "allot" is a word. To assign or allocate. Though, not a correct spelling for "a lot".