How good a guitar player was Carl?

[Mahalo]

Maybe if we got everybody to pray at the same time the Good Lord might work his magic...

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Or better yet: meditate at the same time

[Wirestone]

Erik -- Funny story about those. The original twofers came about when everything was being reissued on CD to start with -- it was a prestige thing, and the band had had a number one hit two years before. The brother twofers came out when the rights reverted back to the group and they licensed everything to Capitol -- at that point there was still a bit of a viable reissue program going.

But in the case of the recent reissues, they weren't even going to be twofers. The early albums were going to be mono/stereo versions with bonuses filling up the rest, and the Brother albums would be the original albums and substantial bonus material. But then the plans changed -- no one wanted to bother with the bonus material at all -- and they were thrown onto twofers without any bonus stuff at all. It was botched even then.

[Magic Transistor Radio]

Every once in a while, we do get special releases. Such as the Good Vibrations box set, Endless Harmony sdtk and Hawthorne. I was also great to see Feel Flows and Lady on recent releases. We do get these things from time to time, so it isn't unrealistic that we could get more like it. But there will be 10 greatest hits between them.

Speaking of which, how good a guitar player is Carl?

[gsmile]

Is this Carl on lead guitar on this track?

She's Mine

If so, that's a pretty kickin' solo, if a somewhat mediocre song.

[adamghost]

I don't remember Carl playing lead on any of his solo stuff...I could be wrong about that.  But I remember looking for it at the time and not seeing it.

[gsmile]

I think you're right Adam; I quick perusal of the Youngblood wiki shows Jeff Baxter as the producer and guitar player in the musicians credit.  Probably the Skunk.  Although I do love Carl's solos they're usually a model of efficiency, nothing to flashy...just sort of hits the spot.  Think "Long Promised Road".  Still, the guitar is about the best thing going in "She's Mine"!

[Magic Transistor Radio]

Carl's solo material reminds me of early Petra songs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gx9K4qdCGlY

[NHC]

Reading this thread made me think of something else - how good a guitar player was Carl, anyway?

[Rocker]

What I'm saying is that their record company doesn't care because they are a dinosaur and a sinking ship, and that the BB's don't care because they are...too comfortable. So who's left to care? The guys behind the scenes banging their heads against the wall, they care, and they are increasingly frustrated  as they pitch ideas to a sinking ship and some crabby old guys who aren't very interested. Of course all of this could change tomorrow...but don't hold your breath.

To sum it up, they blew it, they blew it consistently, they continue
to blow it, it is tragic and this pathological problem caused The
Beach Boys' greatest music to be so underrated by the general public.


- Jack Rieley





I love this quote...unfortunately it's so true...

[c-man]

I don't remember Carl playing lead on any of his solo stuff...I could be wrong about that.  But I remember looking for it at the time and not seeing it.

I'm pretty sure Carl played one of the solos on "Rockin' All Over The World", but that's probably it.
Interestingly, Carl is the only guitarist on many of the early AFM contracts for these sessions...which doesn't mean more guitar wasn't overdubbed later by someone else, but Jeff Baxter's name appears only on the contracts for "Givin' You Up" and "What You Do To Me".

Elliott Randall appears on the contracts for "Givin' You Up" (there's a total of four guitarists on that contract, including Carl), "Rockin' All Over The World", an untitled contract (probably for "One More Night Alone"), and "What You Do To Me".

Trevor Veitch appears as a guitarist on "Goin' Down" (possibly a working title for "If I Could Talk To Love") and "Givin' You Up".

"It's Too Early To Tell" was cut with Carl's road band, including guitarist John Daly.

Interestingly, the only contract with pianist Nicky Hopkins' name is "What You Do To Me", cut months after the rest of the album.  The one song that sounds the most like it has Nicky Hopkins on it, "She's Mine", has no keyboardist name listed on the contract.

[Rocker]

I don't remember Carl playing lead on any of his solo stuff...I could be wrong about that.  But I remember looking for it at the time and not seeing it.

I'm pretty sure Carl played one of the solos on "Rockin' All Over The World", but that's probably it.

He sure did rip it up live. Unfortunately the mix is terrible.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aT87QI4zXFg

Always wondered why Carl didn't do what he said he wanted to do with his solo stuff, that is let some Rock'n'Roll out of his system, which would include some guitar solos imo

[the captain]

I don't think playing solos is necessarily a part of rocking. Maybe he just wanted to be a part of a rock vibe, playing rhythm and singing. That role is no less rock than soloing, in my opinion. In fact, rock 'n' roll is built on the rhythm guitar (a person could argue).

[c-man]

I don't think playing solos is necessarily a part of rocking. Maybe he just wanted to be a part of a rock vibe, playing rhythm and singing. That role is no less rock than soloing, in my opinion. In fact, rock 'n' roll is built on the rhythm guitar (a person could argue).

I think he meant rocking out singing, more than anything.

[Rocker]

I don't think playing solos is necessarily a part of rocking. Maybe he just wanted to be a part of a rock vibe, playing rhythm and singing. That role is no less rock than soloing, in my opinion. In fact, rock 'n' roll is built on the rhythm guitar (a person could argue).

That's not what I meant, sorry, I thought that Carl, who was the leadguitar-player in one of the biggest bands ever, would solo more when doing his own stuff (I also thought he would be the producer), it wasn't meant as a general thing, just that I would've thought of Carl in that way. On the other hand, there's not too much Rock'n'Roll is his solo work to be found and many of it is just average at best.

[gsmile]

I thought that Carl, who was the leadguitar-player in one of the biggest bands ever, would solo more when doing his own stuff (I also thought he would be the producer), it wasn't meant as a general thing, just that I would've thought of Carl in that way. On the other hand, there's not too much Rock'n'Roll is his solo work to be found and many of it is just average at best.

I think more than anything this is the biggest disappointment with Carl's solo albums.  Nothing here rocks as hard as his solo productions from "Surf's Up" or "So Tough".  Ironically, the Carl produced Ricci Martin album "Beached" sounds more like what I'd want a Carl Wilson solo album to sound like.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aT87QI4zXFg

Youtube used to have the Carl-penned "Everybody Knows Your Name" but it looks like that was taken down.  That track dates from the "15 Big Ones" era and it definitely has that "So Tough" chugging rhythm to it.  I expected more of that sound on Carl's solo album.

[the captain]

On the other hand, there's not too much Rock'n'Roll is his solo work to be found and many of it is just average at best.

Now that I agree with.

[Sam_BFC]

Sort of on this topic:

After AGD posted a link to the youtube 'Behind the Sounds' series on the blueboard, I had a listen to the That's Not Me episode.

Cark's 12-string guitar overdubs really stood out for me...such great tone, and this was from plugging straight into the console...a simple part for sure but so cool I think

[hypehat]

"you read your guitar book, Carl?" never fails to crack me up

[Steve Mayo]

i attended a beach boys concert in charleston, wv in, i think, october 1985. group came out and started the show. i was in the 4th row right in front of carl. i was wearing a yellow love you t-shirt i got from brother back in 1977. had the love you cover on it. carl stared at me and that t-shirt the whole show. best part was carl played all the leads. he played what jeff usually played and jeff played what carl usually did. i was in awe. and the sound rocked. had never seen carl so into playing like that. at one point he even climbed up the drum riser, leaned back in the classic guitarist stance with the guitar pointed straight up, playing away. one of the best rocking beach boys shows i ever saw. i was blown away. he was a wild man that night. he sure played the hell out of the guitar that night.

[gsmile]

i attended a beach boys concert in charleston, wv in, i think, october 1985. group came out and started the show. i was in the 4th row right in front of carl. i was wearing a yellow love you t-shirt i got from brother back in 1977. had the love you cover on it. carl stared at me and that t-shirt the whole show. best part was carl played all the leads. he played what jeff usually played and jeff played what carl usually did. i was in awe. and the sound rocked. had never seen carl so into playing like that. at one point he even climbed up the drum riser, leaned back in the classic guitarist stance with the guitar pointed straight up, playing away. one of the best rocking beach boys shows i ever saw. i was blown away. he was a wild man that night. he sure played the hell out of the guitar that night.

This post made me grin ear to ear.  That's the Carl I wanna hear about!  How much do we miss him?  Muchly.  Thanks for the wonderful memory Steve.

[Emdeeh]

Wow -- I would love to have seen THAT show! Thanks, Steve.

[hypehat]

i attended a beach boys concert in charleston, wv in, i think, october 1985. group came out and started the show. i was in the 4th row right in front of carl. i was wearing a yellow love you t-shirt i got from brother back in 1977. had the love you cover on it. carl stared at me and that t-shirt the whole show. best part was carl played all the leads. he played what jeff usually played and jeff played what carl usually did. i was in awe. and the sound rocked. had never seen carl so into playing like that. at one point he even climbed up the drum riser, leaned back in the classic guitarist stance with the guitar pointed straight up, playing away. one of the best rocking beach boys shows i ever saw. i was blown away. he was a wild man that night. he sure played the hell out of the guitar that night.

This post made me grin ear to ear.  That's the Carl I wanna hear about!  How much do we miss him?  Muchly.  Thanks for the wonderful memory Steve.

+1

[kookadams]

Count me as well as a huge Micky Dolenz fan -- BUT -- not taking ANYTHING away from Micky, Dennis was a much more solid drummer.  What Micky accomplished was amazing because: 1) he had to play the kit wacky because of a deformity in one of his feet; and 2) the guy hardly had any time to practice.  Those guys were working 22 hours a day at that time.  So I'm not taking anything away from the guy at all, what he managed to do with what he had was just incredible.  But Dennis was just a much more solid timekeeper, just sayin'.  They did have more than a little in common, though...Dolenz was an AMAZING raw talent.  He's one of the great underrated singers of the '60s, all the more interesting of a vocalist because he was basically untrained and sometimes went off into the ether in ways that made you go "wha....?"  As a songwriter, he was quirky and imaginative, and he also was the first person to play a Moog on a rock 'n' roll record.  Dolenz...man, genius.

I have to take a little issue about Ricky Fataar.  I don't doubt he's a nice guy and I give him FULL props as a musician.  It's just a question of how appropriate his drumming style was for the Beach Boys and whether his talent was ever fully utilized in the band.  As I said, I think you can make an argument either way.  I'm not dissing the guy.  IN CONCERT is one of my favorite Beach Boys albums.  The drumming grooves well and it's compelling.  But it is much busier and more polyrhythmic than that music was before or since.  Good or bad?  Who's to say.  I don't mind it.  I would have liked to have heard a little more of that on record, for sure....and as I've said, I think Ricky is at his least compelling when he's doing a basic 2-4 beat in the studio.  Give me Dennis every time for that.  So as for playing busy, Ricky didn't ruin anything, as I would argue maybe one or two more technical drummers had done on occasion.  I love the guy's work with the Surf Punks, but I've heard boots of Dennis Dragon playing drums with the BBs as a young man and to my ear, it was just crap.  Way too overexcited (he was a young dude after all) and it screwed up the groove on nearly every song.  Bobby F., on the other hand, is a much more technically accomplished drummer than Dennis but for the most part I don't really "notice" him when it's his playing and not Dennis'.  Whether that's good or bad depends on your point of view, but I think it respects the basic group sound.  Ricky definitely brought his own flair to it, and it was different from the tradition of the group's sound.  I don't mind it, but you can ask the question whether it was appropriate or not, and that's all I'm doing -- it's purely a matter of opinion, and it works for me mostly.  I definitely think Blondie and Ricky could have been integrated better into the group's sound, given more time and a different political situation.

Anyway, Ricky was what he was, and did what he did.  I have no beef with the guy.  I like that era.  I'm just thinking and listening critically and asking questions.

What someone said upthread about the Wilsons having a basic innate ability to play is what I've had people who knew them tell me.  They all just could pick something up and in a short while make it work, apparently. 

Count me as well as a huge Micky Dolenz fan -- BUT -- not taking ANYTHING away from Micky, Dennis was a much more solid drummer.  What Micky accomplished was amazing because: 1) he had to play the kit wacky because of a deformity in one of his feet; and 2) the guy hardly had any time to practice.  Those guys were working 22 hours a day at that time.  So I'm not taking anything away from the guy at all, what he managed to do with what he had was just incredible.  But Dennis was just a much more solid timekeeper, just sayin'.  They did have more than a little in common, though...Dolenz was an AMAZING raw talent.  He's one of the great underrated singers of the '60s, all the more interesting of a vocalist because he was basically untrained and sometimes went off into the ether in ways that made you go "wha....?"  As a songwriter, he was quirky and imaginative, and he also was the first person to play a Moog on a rock 'n' roll record.  Dolenz...man, genius.

I have to take a little issue about Ricky Fataar.  I don't doubt he's a nice guy and I give him FULL props as a musician.  It's just a question of how appropriate his drumming style was for the Beach Boys and whether his talent was ever fully utilized in the band.  As I said, I think you can make an argument either way.  I'm not dissing the guy.  IN CONCERT is one of my favorite Beach Boys albums.  The drumming grooves well and it's compelling.  But it is much busier and more polyrhythmic than that music was before or since.  Good or bad?  Who's to say.  I don't mind it.  I would have liked to have heard a little more of that on record, for sure....and as I've said, I think Ricky is at his least compelling when he's doing a basic 2-4 beat in the studio.  Give me Dennis every time for that.  So as for playing busy, Ricky didn't ruin anything, as I would argue maybe one or two more technical drummers had done on occasion.  I love the guy's work with the Surf Punks, but I've heard boots of Dennis Dragon playing drums with the BBs as a young man and to my ear, it was just crap.  Way too overexcited (he was a young dude after all) and it screwed up the groove on nearly every song.  Bobby F., on the other hand, is a much more technically accomplished drummer than Dennis but for the most part I don't really "notice" him when it's his playing and not Dennis'.  Whether that's good or bad depends on your point of view, but I think it respects the basic group sound.  Ricky definitely brought his own flair to it, and it was different from the tradition of the group's sound.  I don't mind it, but you can ask the question whether it was appropriate or not, and that's all I'm doing -- it's purely a matter of opinion, and it works for me mostly.  I definitely think Blondie and Ricky could have been integrated better into the group's sound, given more time and a different political situation.

Anyway, Ricky was what he was, and did what he did.  I have no beef with the guy.  I like that era.  I'm just thinking and listening critically and asking questions.

What someone said upthread about the Wilsons having a basic innate ability to play is what I've had people who knew them tell me.  They all just could pick something up and in a short while make it work, apparently. 

dennis dragon was a great drummer! The surf punks  rocked!!

[bringahorseinhere?]

I wish Carl really went on with his 'guitar work' and ( maybe he did )

I just wish we could have seen more of it.......... his guitar solo's are 'ass kickin'....


look at the footage of him playin 'fun fun fun' in the 80's on American band.......


sh*t hot!

RickB