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I don't play guitar, so I really don't know. He didn't have to 'show off' like Hendrix or many of the heavy metal guitar players. But then again, it seems like it would be pretty tough to play and sing a song like Good Vibrations or God Only Knows. So I would like to here from any guitar players.

The Beach Boys' guitar parts often have some tricky chords but they're generally not that hard to play.

But I'd say that if you're in your mid teens and you can pull off those Chuck Berry riffs as well as Carl did at the time, you're surely a talented guitarist.

I get the sense that the Beach Boys were much more songwriters and producers than excellent  instrumentalists. Although, the Wilsons, Bruce and even Al were capable at playing the basics in several things. I am guessing that Carl was better player than Al, or were they about the same? Who was the best piano player?

Bruce Johnston far and away the best keyboard player in the band, but I would award second best to Dennis.  Brian had more technical knowledge, but Dennis had more range as a player, I think.  People who knew them better can tell me if that's not right.

I'm pretty sure the whole band, even Mike, could play at least rudimentary keyboards.

Didn't he do the guitar solo on "It's About Time"?

I thought that was Ed Carter...?

If I had to think of one word to describe Carl Wilson's playing, it would be "solid."  The guy was not a blazer, but he could play extremely complicated guitar parts and sing over them effortlessly.  Try playing the figure to "Sloop John B" and singing a harmony over it.  Have fun.  I've done it and having done so, I won't ever disrespect Carl's guitar playing.  I bet it would give Clapton a moment's pause.  I was in the studio once cutting a remake of the song with Jerry Cole -- THE Jerry Cole -- and even he struggled with it.  Everything isn't about knowing your scales and playing them with lightning speed.

The Beach Boys, the Wilsons in particular, were all first rate foundational players.  This is a concept that gets lost on a lot of musicians who just rate things in terms of technical ability...but if no one's establishing the groove and the chord progression, all the technical ability in the world just makes for a crap arrangement.  You see this all the time with bad bar bands...everyone's showing off their chops and no one's laying down the mortar.  

Give a listen to "My Diane" on MIU ALBUM or "I Wanna Pick You Up" on LOVE YOU...Denny on drums, Brian on piano, Carl on guitar (and possibly bass on "Diane").  Basic doesn't even begin to describe the playing...but what power.  POW.  Everything locks.  It's like a brick wall.  Give me that over a noodle-rama any day.

Great example of the Beach Boys foundational playing style (though Dennis isn't on drums) here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8lqmU4ky4Y

Brian's piano is solid as a rock, quarter-note chords right hand, bass line in left.  Carl doubles the bass line on guitar and does a good approximation of Joe Walsh's guitar solo.  Al's guitar is audible doing the solo, and he's playing a part that tonally (with use of chorus) doubles and reinforces the clavinet...which in turn is underpinning Brian's piano...AND the bass line.  Drums syncopate more than a Beach Boys song usually does, but heavy on the low frequency part of the drums, a la Dennis (even though it's Bobby Figueroa)...much more toms than cymbals to keep the bottom end stomping and stay out of the frequency range of the vocals.

Here's another good one.  A good bit of overdubbing of the vocals in post, but the music sounds 100% live to me:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVKCRpOewco

Bruce, Brian and Mike Meros all double the chords on three separate keyboards that have slightly different timbres.  Carl doubles the bass line throughout while singing lead (and playing triplets while singing harmony on the chorus).  Dennis' drumming, as usual, stomps, heavy on the bottom of the kit.  Watch how often he plays the cymbals...not much....the high frequency is given over to the tambourine.  It's all toms and snare.  Particularly notice his fill at 3:13 and his drumming at the outro of the song.  It stomps.  No cymbals.  All toms.  Technically simple.  Fabulous attack and tone.  Everything locks together perfectly.

Technically speaking, could Carl blast off a solo like Steve Vai?  Or rip a blues solo for 15 minutes like Stevie Ray?  No.  But so what?  How does that fit into the Beach Boys world.  It doesn't.  Songs like God Only Knows do not require it.  There is no place for it.  If you want that "type" of guitar playing, there are tons of shred players to listen to.  Personally speaking, I think that mindset of "ok middle of song, time for your solo" is outdated long ago.  But there are some people who love that.  I get bored when I see, particularly if its long and done bad, a 10 minute solo, especially a blues jam.  Yawn.  It does not interest me.

So sure, there are different levels of proficiency on the guitar.  The genius of Brian was his chord progressions, melodies, ability to put together gorgeous harmonies and production skills.  No shredders needed.  Just the COLOR of the guitar, one of the many instruments he used to paint the picture, particulary in his latter productions. 

I agree with you. However, the Beach Boys do have some songs with extended instrumental sections, such as Feel Flows. But the only thing that shows off, at least live, is the flute. There are some some brief guitar solos on several BB rock songs, but more of a Chuck Berry riff then Stevie Ray. I am not a Stevie Ray fan, nor do I care for heavy metal. But I do like the Doors and Pink Floyd. I suppose that they don't really show off either, but sort of lay it down, like Feel Flows or the bridge to Leaving this Town.

Nope, according to Desper it's Carl on the record.  And Carl always played it live.  You might be thinking of "Bluebirds Over The Mountain":  Eddie C. plays the screaming lead licks all over that one.

I'd say that Carl was one really good guitar player! But I don't think he ranges all the way up to great or fantastic, fabolous or anything

Did Carl compose any of the guitar parts or solos for the 1961-1971 catalog? Or did he just play what he was told to? Big difference :)

//RD

Carl shredded, no questions about it. I would take someone who holds it down while singing those wonderful songs than one who is technically astounding but lacks in the soul dept. Carl Wilson is one of the MOST underrated guitarists in the universe of guitar geeks, but we know better!! :police:

Ahh ok cool...

Quite sure he composed the guitar solo for "Dance, Dance, Dance", hence his co-writer credit.

He wrote the main riff on "Dance, Dance, Dance" I think...but I would say he wrote most of his own solos.  I've worked most of them out for cover bands and he tends to have a pretty specific style, kind of a Chuck Berry thing that expands to accommodate Brian's unorthodox chord structures.  A lot of first position stuff and riffs off the chord inversions.  Kind of tricky given what he has to solo over sometimes...the chord sequence for the solo to "Be True To Your School," for example, is insane.  I can't imagine how he ever kept that straight.  He did do the solo on "Dance Dance Dance," for example, which is pretty awesome.  He apparently also played the opening solo on "Fun Fun Fun" but was doubled by Glenn Campbell.

The opening solo on "Fun Fun Fun" was played live, with no double, by whomever played the main rhythm part on the song...Campbell is not on the AFM sheet and we don't have the tracking session tape, so we can't say for sure if it was Carl or Glen, only that Glen has said he's on it.  Carl definitely doubled it...during the vocal overdub, and also played the middle solo on an overdub.  One thing I find really interesting about "Dance Dance Dance" (which DOES feature Campbell, doubling Carl's main 12-string riff on an acoustic 6-string) is that Carl played the solo live on the basic track, instead of overdubbing it.  I'm not sure he ever did that on any other song, except maybe "409" or "Surfin' Safari".

Adam I've heard you say that Bruce is the best keyboard player in the band before, and I'm just curious as to what you think makes his style so impressive. Perhaps I'm confusing his syrupy tendencies in the songwriting department with his instrumental prowess.

OH sh*t, TDHABIB BNRINGING THE PAIN

My first reason for saying that is that the Wrecking Crew guys held his playing in very high esteem...I think Hal Blaine said in his book that he had a feel on an organ that was better than any he'd ever heard.  When I did a session with them his name came up again and it was clear they viewed Bruce as a player "who could hang."  Those guys were not easily impressed.  David Marks has also singled out his playing out for praise, and commented that you'd never know it from what he does onstage.

But you can tell from watching him play, too.  Look no further than the live version of "The Nearest Faraway Place" that was just posted.  It's schmaltzy, yeah -- a lot of classically trained players ARE schmaltzy -- but technically it's miles past anything the other guys in the band could do.

Now having said that, let's make a distinction between technical musicianship and good taste!  I actually highlighted the Wilsons' playing upthread for just this very reason, because I think a lot of players could learn from their hard-hitting, minimalist style.  It's been said of Johnston that he doesn't have a rock and roll bone in his body, and to his credit, I've heard him admit as much himself...and yeah, his solo "Disney Girls" on youtube was a pretty rough go to watch -- it made Manilow seem understated!  I've played with musicians that are similar to Bruce, guys who had thorough training in chord theory, the classics, sang in choir and band, etc., and you will find they often have blind spots in terms of taste, understanding what's good and isn't good about rock music, and just playing with the right kind of emphasis.  They come from a place where there are rules, and they are loath to break them.

However -- and this is a big however -- these kinds of players are first rate in terms of precision, understanding complicated chord theory, exacting in matters of pitch, etc.  They're the kinds of guys that you can give a tough assignment to and they'll know what to do.  If it's a technical issue of execution, you don't have to explain stuff to these kinds of guys...if you do, it's usually something like "play harder." There's a reason Brian started using Bruce in the studio...the guy was, from all accounts, a fantastically quick study.  Brian didn't have to explain a complicated vocal part to Bruce twice.  On a technical level, Bruce probably "got" what Brian was going for quicker than any of the other guys.  

So yeah...rock and roller, not so much.  First rate utility dude that you can plug into almost any situation...definitely.  Best keyboard player in the band?  By any technical measure, no question.  He's in a league of musicianship above all the other guys (not counting Blondie, Ricky and David)...but that said, it may not always have been the best style of playing for the Beach Boys music.  But his live work with the band in the early '70s was pretty impressive.  It's a shame to see him so underutilized these days, but I assume that's how he wants it.  70 is not 25.

Well said, that man.

adamghost -- thanks for your excellent analysis in this thread.  I pretty much agree with everything you've said.  I am no guitar expert -- a marginal player myself, I am more proficient in piano, but no expert there either.  But I know what I enjoy hearing.  I think you correctly identify what the Wilsons had, more than anything else, was the ability to express themselves through music and instruments, which is more important than technical brilliance.  A certain basic proficiency is essential of course, but beyond that, it is what you convey through the instruments that matters.

I love your citing My Diane and I Wanna Pick You Up -- two of my all-time favorite tracks.  They are very simple but the playing DOES sound phenomenal, as you say.  There is some emotional component to the three brilliant brothers, all musical geniuses in their own way, making music together.

I would be interested to hear your opinions on Ricky and Blondie.  Personally I really love the playing on the Flame album.  Again, though a large part of the greatness is probably how tight the Flame were as a unit, presumably in part because the drummer, bassist, and one guitarist were brothers (just like the Wilson). 

I treasure certain moments from Carl as a guitarist -- like his brief solo on Long Promised Road, that brings tears to my eyes.  It just speaks in a way that so many longer, more elaborate solos do not.  (Now someone will probably post that it's not Carl). :)

I find that Bruce's  Old Grey Whistle Test performance of Disney Girls is  nauseating just as you do, even though he certainly plays some complicated chords.  I'd rather hear a version from Brian at that time ('75?) -- it would be much simpler, but more sincere. 

And as you point out, Denny did become a great keyboard player and incorporated phenomenal keyboard textures and playing -- most if not all of it done by himself -- into his 70s work.

This is a tough question to answer, and so far the answers have been very interesting! I have a slightly different take on it.

The most impressive and maybe the most amazing aspect of Carl Wilson's guitar playing is the fact that he was so influential before he was 18 years old. I'll say it another way: While he was still in high school he was recording songs which kids and adults were learning on their own.

I think Carl's best work, and I mean this as an all-encompassing standard of judging his influence, was on the pre-Beatlemania Beach Boys albums. His guitar work on those albums is not only technically good, but thanks to the technology and the studios they were using, it sounds amazing and I'd argue even more than Dick Dale at the time Carl Wilson had THE California Fender guitar sound which everyone is in love with. Sparkling clear, reverb drenched, cherry Fender equipment right from the factory, being recorded with some of the finest recording equipment possible. Dick Dale was the father of the sound, sure, the Ventures had their niche, but Dick Dale's records are more dirty-sounding than those early Beach Boys records. Carl's tone is crystal clear, and just cuts right through the mix.

Again, the thing to point out is he was still in high school! A teenage guitarist playing Dick Dale and Bill Doggett records as good as Carl was, and also adding a stamp of personality to the original songs, is quite an accomplishment.

And when those records became hits, just as Carole Kaye had her "Beach Boys pick" which producers would ask her to use, there were producers asking for session players to play like the Beach Boys' sound, which was in the early days Carl Wilson. Impressive for a teen guitarist.

Here is the point where I might stray a bit from other opinions...in the years after that initial blast of success, did Carl Wilson improve as a guitarist? Or was he playing the same kinds of leads as he had played in 1963 into the 1970's? There is the point to consider. Obviously he was a lead singer, a harmony singer, and a bandleader for all intents and purposes so his musical plate was full. But up until a point in the 70's and apart from a few highlights, did he get better as a guitarist? After you have that much success at such an early age, and you have a bag of tricks as a guitarist which you hear other people copying and using on their own records, why change your sound? At that point Carl didn't need to change because it fit what his band needed. This was apparently a conflict within the Beatles as well, and caused tension among the three guitarists when some felt others were not "keeping up" with the current sounds.

Would Carl have been a good session man like those Wrecking Crew members? Brian wanted him on some sessions when he was available, obviously he trusted Carl that way. But that was family, rather than a "job" where time is money and you're playing for clients. Those so inclined, listen to the California Girls material and hear who was making the most mistakes take after take. That's one time, one song, but if that were not family he'd probably not be hired back to play for that producer after making that many "bloopers".

Carl's best and most influential work was the first group of Beach Boys albums and singles, and they still hold up today as technically proficient, brilliant sounding recordings which might be the definition of the classic "Fender Sound" of guitar in the 60's.

It must be noted that in the early days the emphasis on Carl was very much that of a 'lead guitarist' role. He was arguably the least vocally present member of the group. Then pretty much overnight around the time of "Good Vibrations" it seemed to dawn on everyone that Carl was the most vocally talented member of the band and he basically became the lead vocalist. As the groups sound had always had it's foundation in Brian's strange piano chord sequences and interlocking multi harmonies there was never any room for blazing Hendrix like solos in the music and that combined with his ever increasing vocal duties meant there was little need for Carl to progress his playing to a technically higher level.

I think the two posts above this are, each in their own way, right on target.  David Marks has made the same statement -- that Carl stopped progressing as a guitar player after about 1966.  But in the same light, his role in the band expanded and he became less of a specialized player and more of a "big picture" kind of a guy.  You tend to look at your own playing in a bigger context at that point, and it's clear that all the Wilsons had a "less is more" philosophy towards playing...in that whatever their technical limitations were, they deliberately underplayed on tracks even relative to what they COULD do (e.g. Dennis would choose to not play a lot of fills or cymbals, even though he was perfectly capable of doing so). 

As I said above, I continue to be impressed by how many parts Carl could juggle onstage without really giving it a second thought.  It's not the same talent as a Jeff Beck, but it's in a lot of ways a rarer talent.  A lot of the shredding guitar players I know can NOT do that....in fact, many of them cannot even play decent rhythm guitar (another really underrated but important skill...speaking personally I am just an adequate lead guitarist, but I get a lot of work as a guitar player anyway because my time is good).  Carl also seemed, from interviews I have read in the '70s and '80s, to be very focused on tone, which again, is something a lot of guitar players could learn from.  One note played the right way can really do what a sixteen bar solo cannot.

In a general sense, though, how many rock players really "progress" after they become famous (or do their best-known work)? I know that some must, but it's not like Elton John plays particularly better piano now than he did in 1970, or that McCartney is a better bass player than the prime years of the Beatles. Brian certainly didn't become a better pianist. The one who did change in the group seems to have been Dennis -- but he was also the one with the most to prove as the 60s turned into the 70s.

The thing is, there are powerful market pressures on budding rock stars in two directions. One, if they want to eat, they have to learn the basics. But two, once they're famous, people seldom want radically new things from them. So there's no reason to push themselves in terms of instrumental chops (songwriting and themes on occasion, but not too far). Assuming Carl wanted to become a Beck or Clapton-style player, no Beach Boys fan would want to hear it anyway.

I don't have the Flame album...I am a big admirer of the early '70s Beach Boys, particularly IN CONCERT, but I can see the flaws in the concept too.  Blondie and Ricky were great musicians in the traditional sense of the word....technically fluid and they know their craft.  I think I'd make the argument that Ricky was the stronger player of the two (Carl I believe called him one of the best musicians he'd ever seen), in the sense that he could play phenomenal drums, and also keyboards, guitar, flute and pedal steel (which is a bitch of an instrument to learn).

I'm on the fence about how appropriate Ricky's drumming was for the Beach Boys.  He overplays a lot on IN CONCERT.  It kind of works in the way Stewart Copeland kind of works, and it doesn't bug me the way one of their future drummers did when he reinvented the parts on the songs and kinda killed the groove on 'em.  Conversely, what Ricky played on record really wasn't all that different than what Dennis played on record, but I'd argue that Dennis did the dumb drummer thing better than Ricky.  Ricky just sounds bored, and who can blame him really, whereas Dennis could hit a tom and make it sound like the end of the world.

I think the studio albums the Flame guys played on would have been better served by a liver feel.  "Funky Pretty", "Marcella" and "Leaving This Town" are much better live, though NOT "Sail On Sailor" which has a MONSTER groove.  Listen to it with headphones sometime.  The tension between the drums and the keyboards is unreal.  Perfect recording...but I digress.

The difficulty with the early '70s Beach Boys is that, even though Bruce pretty much had to go to make it work, the group definitely lost a cohering factor without him.  The vocal blend for sure suffered...the band got much more into counterpoint vocals as opposed to harmonies.  Without Bruce to shuffle around finishing this or that idea and to play his politically ambiguous role, the band basically splintered, and the Flame guys never fully integrated, which is a shame, because there's no question the early '70s live band was phenomenal.  I love the albums, they really sound like nothing else, but it's not surprising they weren't big hits.  They're quirky and they're spotty, and they're kind of sterile, particularly HOLLAND.  That's part of their charm, but it wasn't gonna make for a breakthrough situation.

I think where Carl was going with the group, Blondie and Ricky were the right guys to make it happen, but the band really became Carl-Ricky-Blondie with the other guys hovering around the margins doing their own thing.  I don't get the sense that there was any hostility from the other guys toward Ricky and Blondie, but it's too bad we didn't get more stuff like "Carry Me Home", "Out In The Country" or the "California Saga" where what Al and Dennis and to some extent Mike had to offer could gel with what was going on with the band.  The group was moving towards a hippie-roots sensibility that suited them, I think.  If they could have gotten further along that road by '74, and were able to raise their songwriting game, who knows how the history of the band would have changed.

Anyway, Blondie and Ricky, first rate players for sure.  You don't have the careers they've had otherwise.  You could argue they were a little too "good" for the Beach Boys' sound, but I think it's more a question of not having had an opportunity to really gel, and not enough unity of direction between all these different factions of the band.  It worked great live, and it could have worked better on record with more time and focus, I think.

Another point I'd like to make is when Carl stepped up his creativity in the early 70's he did so largely through the piano and moog synth. "Trader", "Feel Flows" and "Long Promised Road" all seem to have been composed primarily through these instruments, with the guitar more decorative than grounding.

I immediately thought of Smiley Smile and Friends as extreme versions. All the individual parts seem fairly simple, yet most people would not be able to come up with that combination. Especially on Friends.

The simplicity by choice point is valid, but I might disagree slightly in why they played such simple parts. Dennis was a great stage drummer, very high-energy and loud, but his time wasn't as solid, and his groove felt best, in my opinion, on the shuffles like Help Me Rhonda which he could just ace.

The simplicity of individual parts becomes a necessity when your arrangements are as full of parts as those coming from Brian Wilson. A specific part in a specific section of a song you want to emphasize cannot be crowded out of the arrangement by supporting parts which are too complex or too busy. It's actually better to underwrite your arrangements to benefit the "big picture" of the full song than it would be to show off with flashy parts that start bumping into each other.

The thing Brian had going on was his ability to manage this in both his vocal and instrumental arrangements, which reached the climax around 1966. None of those arrangements sounded cluttered, yet the orchestrations were thick and the vocals had more than the average 4-part voicings. Brilliant.

Smiley Smile and Friends, minus the more full studio bands of Pet Sounds, Smile, and Good Vibrations, stripped away much of the instrumentation. So you still heard the thick vocal arrangements front and center, but instead of three guitar parts and two bassists playing simple single lines, you only hear one or two, and it does sound quite bare compared to 1966.

But I don't think it's the musicians choosing to underplay as much as the musical arrangements dictating that they underplay.

Everything you write is true, guitarfool, but I'm also going by people who worked with them.  You've got Ricky Fataar, for example, saying in an interview that Dennis encouraged him to lay back and play more simply.  That's a philosophical thing.  You can't really say that arranging parts to interlock necessitated playing simply and then say that it wasn't a conscious decision.  You can always do something else!  I do agree that the Wllsons were all brought up with a certain way of putting records together through Brian that certainly influenced them moving forward.  Kind of a chicken or egg deal.

Anyway, it's certainly an approach I've internalized as a musician and let me tell you, not only does it really help in laying solid tracks and getting your overall sound to cohere, but it's very, very rare in a world where everyone just wants to shred.  I esteem the Wilson approach very highly....you'll find that when you get to the really top echelon of players, they will also tend to play more simply.  My two favorite drummers in the world are Dennis Wilson and Al Jackson, Jr. (Booker T/Al Green)  Technically, they are at polar ends of the spectrum...Al J. had more finesse in his little finger than Dennis had in his whole body...but the theory to their drumming is the same; respect the fundamentals.

I've always wondered exactly how Dennis learned to play. Did he take lessons? If not, where did he practice?

There's a big leap from being delegated to drums by your Mom over the rest of your band's objections to the guy playing in this clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lVfrQpGDMI

The clip is from 1963. Dennis was assigned to drums cold in 1961, right? I've been playing drums for over 20 years, and two years into it, I still pretty much sucked...... badly! How many players were as solid and professional as Dennis a mere two years or less into their playing lives?

I'm on the fence about how appropriate Ricky's drumming was for the Beach Boys.  He overplays a lot on IN CONCERT.  It kind of works in the way Stewart Copeland kind of works, and it doesn't bug me the way one of their future drummers did when he reinvented the parts on the songs and kinda killed the groove on 'em.  Conversely, what Ricky played on record really wasn't all that different than what Dennis played on record, but I'd argue that Dennis did the dumb drummer thing better than Ricky.  Ricky just sounds bored, and who can blame him really, whereas Dennis could hit a tom and make it sound like the end of the world.

Ricky's drumming on "In Concert" has always perplexed me. He's obviously an immensely skilled player but he kills a bit of the fun for me by laying down these great rhythms with great feel and then it comes time for a fill and he does this boring, lazy, rudimentary "dah da-da" on the snare almost every time.  Of course, on some songs be purely rules, but my little complaint just always makes me think of Dennis because Dennis never did anything on the drums that didn't sound like he absolutely meant it. He didn't have a stockpile of practiced/over considered fills and pick-ups that he tossed out. He always seemed to do something different with each song and each part. There was an unpredictability in his playing that was really exciting. Check him out in the Olympia clips and see

Great example -- Paul Mertens gathered a lot of players together for Brian during the BWPS sessions, so Brian could pick and choose instruments and parts. And in "Nothing But Love," BW told Gary Griffin to play a single, sustained note on the organ leading up to the chorus. And that was it. (You can actually hear it in the record, although Gary seems to add a bit of a slide at the end).  GG can clearly play more complicated parts. But BW thought of that one note, and that's all the song needed.

Side note on Dennis' drumming:  Earle Mankey recently told me that when Dennis was in the studio and he would blow a cross-tom fill, he would just keep pretending to play the fill all the way down to the ground until he fell over!

Hahaha - I love it.

I've listened to "In Concert" in its entirety about 400 times. I bought it the day it came out, and I never once ever thought that Ricky Fataar overplayed on it. I thought he played fantastic on that album as well as on CT&P and Holland. I saw him live in the early 70's and I thought he was very good back then. And I still think he played very well on P.O.B. and on the Flame album. I also think Carl Wilson's assessment of Ricky was on the money. Real nice guy, too.

I always wondered where Dennis learned to play drums too. I forgot - is it in the Stebbins book? Maybe David could tell us through Carrie. I know he started out playing Audree's pots and pans. He played pretty well starting on the original 3 or 4 songs submitted to Capitol (such as Shut Down) and throughout the Surfin' Safari album. Unorthodox way of playing, but he could keep the beat! So he only played a year or two before playing on records! When/how did he learn so fast? Was he self-taught or did somebody show him? Did he learn the drums during the time he was lighting farts with David on W. 119th street?

I probably came off as being way more critical of Ricky than was the intention. My point was to express fondness for little touches that Dennis brought to many of the songs Ricky drums to on In Concert. I picked at a specific thing Ricky does on that album which I'm not partial to in order to make my point, which makes me exactly the sort of music fan I dislike, so I stand humbly corrected  :p

As for Dennis picking up the drums so quickly, I don't have my copy of Stebbin's book anymore, so I can't go take a look ???

Speaking of, I'm partway through The Lost Beach Boy and it's by far my favorite book on the band! I mean, what better perspective on the subject could you ask for then David? Stebbins writes as neither a rabid fan-boy nor a cynical rock journalist but someone simply telling a story that has historic significance as well as being a hell of story!

A Mike bio next? ............. Please!  >:D

Not sure you need to stand corrected.......it's a matter of opinion, I guess.

Highly recommend the book on Dennis - "The Real Beach Boy". Jon will hopefully release another one; maybe next year(?)

What a fantastic thread.  Thanks to all for their insights.

As to Dennis learning the drums so quickly, it seems to me that all three Wilsons just had a tremendous innate musical ability that must have made it easier for them to play than for mere mortals like myself.

Speaking of which, in the Olympia concert thread there has been some discussion of Mike's onstage antics, which I have always found grating.  Even back in the very early striped shirt days he would do the goofiest little dances.  I always wondered why he didn't just try to learn guitar and use one on stage.  He could have just played a basic rhythm part -- he must have had the proficiency to do that.  (He couldn't have written "Big Sur" without knowing how to play some instrument.)  Hell, the thing wouldn't even have had to be hooked up, but it would have given him something to do instead of flailing around like an idiot.

Personally, I would never want to be onstage without an instrument.  Mike always looks awkward -- he looks like he feels awkward too.  An instrument would've given him something to hide behind.

Micky Dolenz from the Monkees. He was a guitarist and singer when he got the role on the TV show, and took the role of the drummer when no one else wanted to, since they didn't want Davy Jones stuck behind the drum set when he was the teen idol of the group.

So Micky, in a matter of months, learned a few beats from Peter Tork and others and practiced his butt off in the middle of all the "Monkeemania" to become competent enough of a live drummer to perform in front of thousands of fans on the first Monkees tours.

And in early 1967 - not much more than a year after he started drumming, he recorded songs like "The Girl I Knew Somewhere" and "Cuddly Toy" in the studio and did quite a good job considering the beats were a bit more than a basic rock rhythm, and he had been drumming about as long as he had been a Monkee - that's it! They realized they had to get someone like a "Fast Eddie" Hoh in the studio to cut tracks more challenging like Pleasant Valley Sunday, but Micky did his job.

I'd say Micky is the closest to a Dennis Wilson in learning the drums so quickly and being able to play live shows and not have them totally collapse on poor drumming and time-keeping.

If you watch Micky Dolenz drum, like in the film Head, he has his kit set up backwards, as if he were a left-handed drummer when he is actually right handed! His snare and hi-hat are set up for a lefty. Interesting fact.

Yeah, Micky's awesome and is one of my favorites! I had no idea he learned so quickly and on the spot!

It's funny how my favorite guys play pretty much "wrong"

Ringo's a lefty but plays a right handed set-up! Dennis plays his hi-hat and ride with his left hand and snare with his right. This isn't "wrong" so much as it makes it a tad more difficult to go from the hi-hat snare into any across the toms fills.

Charlie Watts removes the hi-hat on each up-beat. This is a somewhat common technique but he just looks like he means it more than anyone I've ever seen!

Ok, enough drum nerd talk!  :p

Count me as well as a huge Micky Dolenz fan -- BUT -- not taking ANYTHING away from Micky, Dennis was a much more solid drummer.  What Micky accomplished was amazing because: 1) he had to play the kit wacky because of a deformity in one of his feet; and 2) the guy hardly had any time to practice.  Those guys were working 22 hours a day at that time.  So I'm not taking anything away from the guy at all, what he managed to do with what he had was just incredible.  But Dennis was just a much more solid timekeeper, just sayin'.  They did have more than a little in common, though...Dolenz was an AMAZING raw talent.  He's one of the great underrated singers of the '60s, all the more interesting of a vocalist because he was basically untrained and sometimes went off into the ether in ways that made you go "wha....?"  As a songwriter, he was quirky and imaginative, and he also was the first person to play a Moog on a rock 'n' roll record.  Dolenz...man, genius.

I have to take a little issue about Ricky Fataar.  I don't doubt he's a nice guy and I give him FULL props as a musician.  It's just a question of how appropriate his drumming style was for the Beach Boys and whether his talent was ever fully utilized in the band.  As I said, I think you can make an argument either way.  I'm not dissing the guy.  IN CONCERT is one of my favorite Beach Boys albums.  The drumming grooves well and it's compelling.  But it is much busier and more polyrhythmic than that music was before or since.  Good or bad?  Who's to say.  I don't mind it.  I would have liked to have heard a little more of that on record, for sure....and as I've said, I think Ricky is at his least compelling when he's doing a basic 2-4 beat in the studio.  Give me Dennis every time for that.  So as for playing busy, Ricky didn't ruin anything, as I would argue maybe one or two more technical drummers had done on occasion.  I love the guy's work with the Surf Punks, but I've heard boots of Dennis Dragon playing drums with the BBs as a young man and to my ear, it was just crap.  Way too overexcited (he was a young dude after all) and it screwed up the groove on nearly every song.  Bobby F., on the other hand, is a much more technically accomplished drummer than Dennis but for the most part I don't really "notice" him when it's his playing and not Dennis'.  Whether that's good or bad depends on your point of view, but I think it respects the basic group sound.  Ricky definitely brought his own flair to it, and it was different from the tradition of the group's sound.  I don't mind it, but you can ask the question whether it was appropriate or not, and that's all I'm doing -- it's purely a matter of opinion, and it works for me mostly.  I definitely think Blondie and Ricky could have been integrated better into the group's sound, given more time and a different political situation.

Anyway, Ricky was what he was, and did what he did.  I have no beef with the guy.  I like that era.  I'm just thinking and listening critically and asking questions.

What someone said upthread about the Wilsons having a basic innate ability to play is what I've had people who knew them tell me.  They all just could pick something up and in a short while make it work, apparently.  

I love Bobby F and I think the fact that you don't notice him that much is a mark toward his talent. Watch him on the Knebworth DVD and it's clear him and Dennis were something of a spiritual pair.

Bobby's drumming on POB and BAMBU is frankly amazing to me. He perfectly compliments and sounds of a pair with Dennis' own drumming but is still different. I love the way he uses the hi-hit as color and to basically compliment the beat rather than something to keep time with..... It also should be noted that Dennis himself hired Bobby.

That said, the drum track for River Song is Ricky and is one of my favorite drum parts ever. I just think he was different enough from Dennis to make me miss Dennis on a lot of Beach Boys songs live.

Well said.  I may not have made this clear but I meant the fact that I didn't notice him as a compliment.

Oh vis a vis Micky's drumming...check out the live "Circle Sky" from HEAD.  His drumming is a brilliant trainwreck, in that it's all over the place, the beat is just cast hither and yon, yet it's also fricking amazing.  Just total backwards genius, and an amazing band performance.  It makes me realize why Zappa asked him to play in the Mothers of Invention.

A few comments...
I too am a Micky Dolenz fan. His singing on songs like As We Go Along and Porpoise Song might be some of the most ethereal and sensitive ever. Just otherworldly. Carole King has said that Micky was probably the best at singing her material and I agree. As a drummer and songwriter he's a total savant. He only played drums on a dozen or so Monkees tracks, but they are some of the coolest, Girl I Knew Somewhere, Randy Scouse Git, For Pete's Sake, Cuddly Toy, You Just May Be The One, You Told Me, Door Into Summer...that list is classic.

Ricky Fataar. Great drummer, great musician. If he'd only recorded the drums to River Song and nothing else I'd consider him one of my favorites. Add Holy Man, Sail On Sailor and so many others to that...wow! But I also agree that he did not do justice to the early Beach Boys tunes in concert like Surfin USA, Fun Fun Fun, I Get Around etc... Those songs and other early gems just sound so much more passionate and organic with Dennis pounding them out. His heart just jumps out every time, and its always a fun ride. I think the more people see/hear Dennis as a drummer the more they appreciate him. From TAMI Show '64, to Olympic Paris '69, to Knebworth '80...his ability and style evolved but one constant was the fact that the music becomes a living breathing character with a pulse, a heartbeat, a nervous system, and an emotional core when Dennis is laying it down.

He was self taught by all accounts. He had a couple of lessons, a few friends showed him a little bit, but the same as with his piano playing, he went from novice, to a truly unique and dynamic presence on his own. He instinctively knew what felt right.

Thanks for the words about my books, Mikie I have a new book titled The Beach Boys FAQ due out from Backbeat Books next year. If you've seen any of the FAQ series from Backbeat then you'll know what the format is. The Smiley board and its regulars get some props from me in this one. The Real Beach Boy revised edition is still a work in progress, and will surface at some still undetermined point.

I freaking love that segment of HEAD. Micky with his hi-hat right there in the front between his two rack toms is pure insane awesomeness! Micky's one of those drummers who seems to have an especially deep understanding of the different drum kit components and their relationship with each other. He's playing all over his kit on Circle Sky but his feel is extremely consistent the whole way through. He really understands the sounds each drum makes and he has a reason for hitting each one when he does and it all works beautifully. While still indeed being a glorious train wreck.

The Monkees are the most underrated group of all time. Their work between "Headquarters" and "Head" is just amazing. Mike Nesmith in particular is in that upper bracket of 60's songwriters.

I just wanted to say how great it is to see other fans of the Monkees posting the comments! I have been listening to the fantastic "Headquarters Sessions" box this past week, and it always puts a smile on my face and reminds me why The Monkees were and are one of my biggest musical influences since I first started playing!

"The Girl I Knew Somewhere" could be one of the greatest singles of the 60's, and I mean that from all perspectives: songwriting (Nesmith), production (Chip Douglas and Hank Cicalo), performance, and historical context. On the session tapes you can hear Micky struggling with the drum fills as Peter Tork talks him through the parts. They struggle with the song, but they're working hard on it, and the results on the final released version are quite amazing considering they were not expected to be able to record anything of quality as a self-contained band. Yet try to play along with Micky's drumming on that track, or Mike's guitar, or Peter's sublime harpsichord solo which always makes me smile. It's quite a record! And quite a moment of truth for the so-called "manufactured" band who was out to prove themselves.

Micky Dolenz could have survived a career as simply the "voice" of The Monkees, and his voice was perfect for the music. He did have one of the most distinctive voices on top-40 radio in the 60's, and not only with his tone but in the way he'd make a song so personal, such as the already mentioned "As We Go Along" and "Porpoise Song" and also the early album cuts like "Sometime In The Morning" and Headquarters' "I'll Spend My Life With You". He had one of the more intimate voices of that era in pop. But he also took one for the team and took up the drums, and worked hard at that too.

Micky was a natural creative talent, beyond his vocals, but it also seems he needed people to bring it out of him and encourage him, and maybe when he didn't have that his creative nature made him want to move onto the next discovery instead of working through what he had started. I think it was Chip Douglas who said he was "incapable of repeating his triumphs" when working in the studio, which could mean you had to get him on that one special take (like the 100% live Circle Sky) before he moved onto another thing.

And as was written many times before, compare Micky's Moog part on "Daily Nightly" to Paul Beaver's Moog part on "Star Collector" (Beaver sold Micky the Moog...). Micky's is pure creativity with a sense of the unknown and unexpected, while Beaver's is technically great and musically "out". Both are stunning, both are groundbreaking, but Micky's Moog parts are as fleeting and as unique as I guess Micky himself was! Would anyone else have recorded those parts on a major album in 1967 with literally no previous reference on how to play that instrument, since it was brand new?

Underrated isn't even the word for that music!

As much as I love The Monkees, Davy Jones will always be to me what Mike Love is to oldsurferdude.

Lover? Best Friend?

An annoying butthole.

I think you could make an argument that Davy Jones is to the Monkees as was Mike Love to the Beach Boys...without necessarily going the "butthole" route, but it's a fair observation in terms of their roles in the band.

I could go on and on talking about the awesomeness of Dolenz in particular and the whole Monkees project in general.  I'll pull in a Beach Boys tie-in and say that I was extremely skeptical of them for years and it was Darian Sahanaja who convinced me otherwise.  He loaned me his Monkees box set and then his entire VHS collection of the series (which I still have), and I was blown away by the depth and breadth of their catalog. Relative to the amount of time they were recording, they have as many if not more quality tracks than just about any band out there.  Of course, it wasn't really a fair comparison, since you had four guys recording separately plus a wealth of talent backing them up on the songwriting and playing end.  So you have to apportion credit out to a lot of people.

But, yeah...Dolenz and Nesmith.  I am not quite as high on Nesmith's songwriting as most people are (though it was damn good) but I friggin' LOVE that guy's voice, too.  What tone, especially in the higher register.  They didn't do it a lot but when they harmonized together it was just magic.  I remember not long ago on Facebook someone was dissing on the Monkees and I posted a long response in the form of a list of "50 undeniable Monkees tracks" and it was surprisingly easy to compile.

Speaking of Dolenz's tours de force, what about "I'm Goin' Down"?  Stunning.  I've played that for people and said "guess who this is." And no one EVER has a clue.  And everything that was said upthread I agree with...spot on.  Especially when the guy was singing Carole King.  SPINE chilling.  I agree that he was perhaps the best interpreter of her material ever, and that's saying a lot.  Porpoise Song, As We Go Along, Sometime In The Morning, Pleasant Valley Sunday...WOW.  In general I like the Monkees better when they're interpreting other songwriters, though there's no denying all four of them came up with some strong material on their own (even Jones, on the Neil Young-driven "You And I").

Did anyone hear their reunion album 15 years ago?  It was kind of bad, but in a completely stubborn, unique way that made absolutely no concessions to anyone's expectations, like they had been to Mars for the last 25 years.  I kind of like that instead of trying and failing to recapture something, they just decided to go down in flames doing their own thing.  The best song on it sounded like Z.Z. Top.  The worst song on it sounded like Sting.

love nez's music. i think his lp "and the hits just keep on comin'" is one great lp.

www.videoranch.com to get papa nez's tunes.

and micky's last lp, king for a day, is a good one also

I actually had a song on my last album called "The Night I Bought Micky Dolenz A Beer," btw.

My reasons for disliking Jones are not so much for his lack of musical ablilty but because of all the shitty things he has said about the other members in the past decade. Plus many of the groups weaker songs are from him. Compare that to 'the Nez' who didn't make a bad song during the Monkees.

I get the sense that all of the guys have issues with one another, and it's perfectly understandable...they were all thrown together and were all very, very different personalities, and they've kind of been tied to one another psychically for 40+ years now.  I cut those fellows an enormous amount of slack.  Being in a close working environment such as the road with people who you respect, but have very little in common with, is a tough bitch.  And you can bet they're all just a little bitter (Nes probably excepted) at the shadow the Monkees thing has cast over their career.  Dolenz at least put together a credible career as a director and voice over dude.

I did a gig opening for Peter Tork a year or two ago, and the guy was just hounded by this one old-record-geek-posing-as-journalist-dude who was asking him the most asinine questions imaginable, and I was thinking, good God, he's been putting up with this since 1966.  He was much more graceful about it than I would have been.  I don't think I could have put up with a lot of what they did.  The Beach Boys had a rough time too, but the money was probably better for longer with them, and they got to tour and make many records beyond their heydey, so at least there was a better tradeoff there. 

I am also a Monkees fan, but mainly because of Mickey's voice. I am not too crazy about Nez' songwriting though. Davey reminds me of Bruce with Mike's musical talent. Peter Tork is interesting.

Does anybody know why Peter didn't become the drummer since he knew how to do it?

Actually what I've read was that Davy Jones was actually the most talented drummer in the group.  The problem was he was so short you couldn't see him over the kit.  I believe Mike Nesmith said that if they'd apportioned it according to talent, it would have been Davy on drums, Peter on guitar, Mike on bass, and Micky on vox. 

I've read or heard that Peter had the ability to play pretty much any instrument at session musician level. It's odd that he was always the least dominant force in the band.

I think it has to do with him being the least driven/organized member.  He was the one who always wanted the group to function as a group, whereas the other guys were more or less doing their own thing to some degree and pushing their own agendas.  In that political situation, that's how it's usually going to play out.  (This has a lot to do with how Mike Love wound up being the dominant force in the Beach Boys as well...90% of success as they say, is just showing up...and Mike is the most organized mind -- in the conventional sense -- and the most dominant ego of the original five BBs)

Secondarily, the Monkees were primarily a vocal band in the studio (besides a few stray tracks they really only played on HEADQUARTERS, PISCES and part of HEAD), and Peter was by far the least talented singer in the band, so his ability to contribute was going to be limited to those occasions when the band recorded as a band or used the other players on their tracks (which more often than not wasn't the case...even when the guys weren't using session players they often liked to use friends or family members like Bill London or Coco Dolenz), or on tracks that Tork himself spearheaded as a writer or singer (which happened even less).

I read recently that when Tork was working on "Lady's Baby", his working method consisted of inviting his friends over to the session, hanging out all day and recording in 90 minute spurts.  The track wound up costing more than "Good Vibrations" IIRC.  You compared that to how the other three guys worked in the studio (Nes as the taskmaster, Dolenz as the inspired savant, Jones as the guy who showed up and hit his mark), you can see why he didn't wind up really being a driving force in the band.  Now, when it came to actually performing live, Tork was the key to holding it together.  Without him they would probably have been dead.  But on record it was a totally different dynamic.

Put another way, to express his talents, Peter needed the other guys more than they needed him.  A lot of time it's not about being the best or most talented, it's going to be about being the right widget for the right situation.

Here's a good place to put in a plug for the '96 Monkees reunion album "Justus".  As the title implies, they wrote, produced, sang & PLAYED the whole record themselves.  Critics be damned, I love it!  Especially the Dolenz stuff...Mickey just slays me!

Interesting observations all around! About Peter Tork - I have been listening a lot the past week or so to the "Headquarters Sessions", and I remember a comment from Chip Douglas in an 80's Monkees bio where he ran through the talents of the band members. He was vague, but hearing the sessions I think he was accurate too. My own take:

Mike was a solid rhythm guitarist, and damn good and consistent on the electric 12-string, which is a tough instrument. Davy Jones, apart from his vocals, really didn't do much except play tambourine on a few tracks, and his musical contributions consist of a few lead vocals and that was it. He wasn't much of a driving force at all, and I think the other band members did in fact resent Davy going off on his own to work with Don Kirshner after Mike and Peter specifically wanted Kirshner fired, and fortunately Kirshner was such a jerk that the Monkees' brainpower Rafelson-Schneider agreed with them about Don.

Micky Dolenz was a natural talent, and he was the hardest worker, especially on Headquarters with his drumming. He also plays guitar, contributed some really strong and unique but ultimately too unfinished songs to the project, and seemed to bring the most enthusiasm to the Headquarters album in particular. He was quite a character, and quite a musician too, but there really was not the time to develop his talent in the midst of the wild Monkeemania in 1967, so a lot of it went unfinished and a lot of ideas untapped.

Peter Tork - he was at heart a musician and a real folkie, but hearing the actual tapes he was full of energy though his musicianship was not up to the par of a session player. He had the talent, he had the drive, he's playing at least a half-dozen instruments on Headquarters alone, but his playing for a lot of what I heard was not consistent or rock solid. He'd be playing a killer banjo piece, but he'd hit a lot of dead or fluffed notes. He'd play a killer piano line but miss a left-hand note which would stand out too much as a mistake. He'd be playing an electric guitar lead and again hit too many dead notes in the middle of an otherwise very neat part. His vocals wavered off-key all the time, and it's odd but even his whistling part on Seeger's Theme can come in flat on certain pitches. His time was not as solid as Nesmith on guitar, or as Nesmith's pals filling in on random bass or guitar parts, or even Chip Douglas himself on some pretty rock-solid, amazing bass playing.

Then when given time, as on Lady's Baby, he'd whittle the time away and worry more about having the "party" atmosphere going in the studio complete with Persian rugs incense/candles and kaftans and all the other trappings of that scene and not manage to get a decent take of the tune! I think it was engineer Hank Cicalo who got very annoyed having to record Lady's Baby literally dozens of times with all of the party stuff going on, and never getting a useable take out of any of the folks assembled on the studio floor. Jimi Hendrix did the same thing with hangers=on and groupies but Eddie Kramer fortunately told him he can either cut a good record or have a party every session where Hendrix played to his crowd more than played the song itself. It could have been another scene like Tork and Lady's Baby had Kramer not ended it.

Having said all that, Peter Tork was a genuine, sincere, talented guy who had it not been in the middle of a hurricane around the Monkees and having to record with tight deadlines and touring schedules, he could have flourished more. His harpsichord solo on "Girl I Knew Somewhere" is a mini-masterpiece of a composition, and an integral part of that tune. His piano on Daydream Believer fits the song perfect. His guitar on For Pete's Sake is awesome and awesome-ly hard to recreate! His banjo on You Told Me is a highlight of his entire career, doing that country-rock thang before Bernie Leadon was even an Eagle and before Henley-Frey signed big contracts.

So Peter Tork should not take a back seat to anyone regarding the Monkees, and Micky never hesitates to give Peter praise and thanks for teaching him how to drum and being patient with him as a musician in general. I'd almost call him a mentor to Micky, along with Mike who encouraged Micky's writing. I think Peter Tork was a great person, a big influence, and a genuine lover of music but he wasn't at that time at the level of the session guys.

At the end of the day, the situation they were in did not allow them the time to develop as a band or to fine-tune their individual skills as would be the case in a "normal" band, so things Micky and Peter could have fine-tuned as creative musicians never developed as much as they could have. Davy didn't care, he had the role as the British heartthrob before anyone else was even cast. Mike had his gig solidly in place as a singer-songwriter with a country tinge, which actually was timed early but it worked out for him in the long run. Plus he inherited a fortune!

Great post, guitarfool.  I think you are spot on in everything you wrote.

When we gigged with Tork a few years ago it made me a little sad in that I felt like the Monkees thing probably prevented Tork from developing into a truly great -- as opposed to very competent -- player.  It would be hard to quantify this but it was like a shadow cast over the whole show, which was with his blues band.  He could never quite REALLY be a full-on blues band, because he was playing to a room full of Monkees fans, and also he didn't quite have the chops that the rest of his band had...and how could he?  The guys in his band probably had lives like most musicians have had, in obscurity and also in total devotion to music.  Even in the Monkees, Tork was an actor first, and he could never really go back to the Greenwich Village mindset, no matter how much I'm sure he would have liked to.  Your focus and priorities change, you have a different set of issues to deal with that knock you off the musician's path.  I think a lot of this is probably a mental thing, the stigma of ridicule of the band, the price it extracts on one's ego and self-confidence, and possibly overreacting in a different direction.  He probably felt and still feels like he had something to prove, and unfortunately, that desire often can be counterproductive.

I say this with great admiration because I gigged with Tork one other time, back in the '90s and he played solo and it was literally one of the very best solo performances I had ever seen.  I learned a lot from watching how he maintained a crowd's attention for that long as a solo performer.  But therein lies the difference between being a great musician and a great entertainer, if that makes any sense.

That's not meant as a diss at Tork's musicianship, btw.  I just think he had a lot of talent that, as guitarfool suggested above, probably was never fully developed as a result of the Monkees meat grinder, and possibly motivation-killing issues arising therefrom.

A good reason to dislike Davy is' The Day We Fall In Love' from More Of The Monkees, one of the worst songs ever.

I've never heard that one but if it's worse than "Someday Man" it must be bad!

My favourite Monkee tunes are
1) The Girl I Knew from Somewhere.
2) As We go Along.
3) Auntie's Municipal Court.
4) Randy Scouse Git.
5) Nine Times Blue.

I'm still unclear if "Shorty Blackwell" is a work of genius or one of the worst things I've ever heard in my life.

Here you go, don't say that you weren't warned! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4VS4Y7SIO4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4VS4Y7SIO4)

That was hideous beyond words!!!!!!!

You really think so? 
I thought it was laughably funny! Not something I'd want to put on repeat, but it would be good to share at a party when you need people to cut-up and roll on the floor...

Or when you want them to go home!  ;D

Sure, you'd just have to play it louder, on REPEAT. 

One of the aggravating things about The Monkees are their three post Peter Tork albums, "Instant Replay,"  "The Monkees Present," & "Changes,"  released in 1969 & 1970.  The Monkees recorded so many great, unreleased songs from 1968--1969, that it continues to mystify as to why pre-1967 cuts made those albums.


Looking For The Good Times & Ladies Aid Society are two that spring to mind.  These songs were at least 3 years old when they were pulled from the can by their music supervisor, Brendan Cahill, & appeared on "Monkees Present."   Incidentally, Davy sings both, and they severely disrupt the album.  Critics likely had a field day with these songs, as they were recorded before the band had any creative control.

Instant Replay & Present deserve a listen.  Nesmith & Dolenz contribute brilliant songs, especially Nesmith's country-rock "Don't Wait For Me," "Listen To The Band," & the barroom shuffle of "Oklahoma Backroom Dancer."  Micky's songs are best on Present, including Bye, Bye, Baby, Bye Bye & Mommy & Daddy.  He wrote both, & he's exploring jazz territory, socially conscious heavy rock, & nursery rhymes on the same album.

You would have to be a completist to hear their final original album before the reunions, "Changes."  It's bubblegum soul & pop, produced & recorded in New York by Andy Kim & Jeff Barry.  99 Pounds & I Never Thought It Peculiar were the 3-year-old songs that made it, again both sung by Davy.

However, Davy wrote some good songs during '68 & '69 that remained unreleased for years, including "Time & Time Again" & "If You Have The Time," both cowritten with Bill Chadwick.  Good Davy songs at least.  If You Have The Time has an innovative Moog solo.


You can also start a discussion as to why Tork's Lady's Baby, Tear The Top Right Off My Head, & Come On In didn't make an album.  I've got a soft spot for Come On In especially.


Seems someone in the BB camp had these albums, as the boys grabbed onto the idea of releasing old (up to a decade) songs onto current albums.  "Good Time," Suzie Cincinatti, & When Girls Get Together spring to mind.  As a result, these blasts into the past are just that, confusing an often cohesive-sounding album.   I think the BB took it to the extreme though, releasing songs so old.

By the way, Andrew Sandoval wrote a great coffee-table Monkees book (The Monkees:  The Day-By-Day Story of the '60s TV Pop Sensation) a few years ago.  Includes complete sessions, all concert gigs, & long discussions with great photos.  There's even an index at the back of the book with each song, the recording date, & album it appeared on.  You can also go to each musician in alphabetical order & see each song where their contribution has been confirmed.  The BB & their fans have a template, if they would only  check it out.

Does anyone else wish that Rhino were in charge of The Beach Boys catalogue? I say this as the care and detail Rhino put in to the deluxe editions etc put Capitol to shame.


We also appear to have gone very far off topic!

I said this years ago - Rhino became established as a company thanks to their reissuing all of the Monkees vinyl albums in the 80's (I bought them, most were under ten bucks US at the time!), and apart from the Arista "Greatest Hits" album at that same time the Monkees and their music became almost a keystone of the Rhino brand.

As a result, Rhino has continued to treat the Monkees catalog of music, television shows, and films/specials with a great deal of care and respect for the band. And, the big part of it, they gave the fans products which the fans were asking for! Knowing something like an expensive 3CD box set of raw session material was for a small niche market, they issued it with great sound and covered their bottom line by making it a "limited edition" on their Rhino Handmade special label. They did the same with their multi-disc set of concert tapes from the Monkees 1967 tour, again an expensive niche item BUT it was available for those fans who asked for it. And the items sold to those fans. Try to find an original Headquarters Sessions box today.

This is only the Monkees, remember - Rhino has some reissues from many artists and collections too which set the bar high for other labels looking to do the same thing.

But the bottom line is they treated both their fans/consumers and the Monkees themselves with respect and did it "right". The material was "new", the sound was good, and the packaging was usually solid with plenty of goodies and info. Their website off and on features exclusive interviews with members of these bands too, totally free.

The Beach Boys since the 90's have had moments of greatness in the reissues - like the Pet Sounds box set, the '93 band box set, the original 2-fers, but overall, taking every product released since that box set, do we really need yet another hits package with "summer" in the title? Am I wrong to suggest there have been more stalled projects in the past 10 years around the Beach Boys archive releases than there have been actual releases of new material? (remixes don't count) How about the behind-the-scenes struggles which as far as I know if certain parties had their way the Pet Sounds Sessions box would have never come out and the then-unreleased Smile material would have been left off the 1993 box.

Look to the way Rhino handles their Monkees catalog, those in power and those members in the band who have issues with rare material, and *that* might just be what the more loyal Beach Boys fans have been looking for and are willing to pay for, as did those loyal Monkees fans who continue to buy the band's music on Rhino.

But as I was saying about the Monkees...nah, just kidding!

Keep in mind how many people with differing agendas have to sign off on a Beach Boys project.  For everyone one thing one of us might want released, there's someone else to say "no."

But having said that, I think it's a fair point that Capitol hasn't always had the best vision with regards to how to repackage the BBs.

Going back to day one. Given the task of selecting 12 tracks to represent the best of the band's music 1961-1965, how many of us would have chosen the following ?

Surfin' USA
Catch A Wave
Surfer Girl
Little Deuce Coupe
In My Room
Little Honda
Fun, Fun, Fun
The Warmth Of the Sun
Louie Louie
You're So Good To Me
Wendy

Even if all you did was go by chart positions, you'd still get something more representative:

Surfin' Safari
Surfin' USA
Surfer Girl
Be True To Your School
Fun, Fun, Fun
I Get Around
When I Grow Up (To Be A Man)
Dance, Dance, Dance
Do You Wanna Dance
Help Me Rhonda
California Girls
Barbara Ann

Yeah, but if you go with that tracklist, you haven't saved any of their big hits for Vol. 2.

But in March 1966, who knew if they were going to have any more hits ?

Not Capitol, that's for sure.
That's why they saved songs for a Volume 2.
Why waste it all at once, when you can double your $$?

I always find it amusing that "Be True To Your School" peaked far higher than any of the songs people generally quite lovingly associate with the BBs today -- "In My Room", "The Warmth Of The Sun", "Surfer Girl", and "Don't Worry Baby" chief among them. Curious that they're all the melancholy ones that folks seem to be most appreciative beyond the more obvious mega-hits like "California GIrls" and "I Get Around" and whatnot.

1966 is not 2011, though, and haven't archive releases from other labels and other bands shown what is possible and who will buy it? I was in Best Buy last week and there were two archive sets prominently on display: The Springsteen set and the Exile On Main Street set, two releases from major label artists featuring outtakes, rare tracks, unreleased stuff, photos, full histories and liners, etc. These single-album focused archival projects would not be released if there were no market for it, period.

And wade through the pages of the 2011 Box Set thread on this same forum, and see just a sample of what fans who really care about the band's music are hoping to see and how informed they are about the music. Are they asking for a "Be True To Your School" stereo remix? Or another summer fun hits malt shop compilation? I doubt it!

Again I say look at the way Rhino handled the Monkees entire recorded output including video to see how it can be done when it's done with respect on all sides.

Its no bulletin to anyone that Rhino has a better handle on the pulse of the niche market of collector/fan than Capitol/EMI. That's their thing. But what's the point going on about that here? Its decades old news. The BB's have shown they aren't really committed to that approach. Should we dream that the BB's had signed a long term licensing agreement with Rhino instead of Capitol? They didn't. They signed up with Capitol/EMI. And in fact the folks behind the scenes who propose great new hardcore-fan-friendly BB's product on a regular basis are constantly shot down by not only the corporate hierarchy at Capitol/EMI, but often a majority of the four BRI members themselves who are more interested in releasing more greatest hits compilations because Sounds of Summer made tons of money, and they don't really care about unreleased stuff and outtakes. Comparing Rhino to the current BB's/Capitol situation is like saying wow I wish King-Cab Long-Bed four wheel drive pickups got gas mileage like a Prius because that would be so much cooler. The Beach Boys want to keep driving the big truck as if its 1985.

Well, it is fun to dream...

To me, it's just puzzling that the people ultimately responsible for BB releases are not more aware of what's going on out there.  If money is the bottom line, there are better ways to do it than they are doing it.

The greatest hits packages obviously still do sell, but for how long is that going to be the case?  I work in a bookstore that also sells music.  I've seen the CD section shrink down to probably 40% of what it once was.  And it continues to shrink.  We carry the Beach Boys, and they don't sell.  We did sell a couple of the new greatest hits thingies, but we don't sell any twofers, and I don't even think I've sold a Pet Sounds in a long time.

The reason for this, I think, among others, is that both record companies and record stores have groomed the public to not buy records.  If a record store carefully selected its stock based on what people actually want to buy, it could get by on a lot less stock on hand.  And record companies have to make products that are specifically tailored to what people want.  There are still ways to make money off the Beach Boys music.  If only the record executives were as creative at what they do as Brian Wilson was at what he does...

While you make a valid point, I'd like to think there's room in the market to satisfy all factions of the BB's fanbase. Of course Rarities comps don't make them as much money as "Best Of"s, but then how many more hats does Mike really need to buy?

What I'm saying is that their record company doesn't care because they are a dinosaur and a sinking ship, and that the BB's don't care because they are...too comfortable. So who's left to care? The guys behind the scenes banging their heads against the wall, they care, and they are increasingly frustrated  as they pitch ideas to a sinking ship and some crabby old guys who aren't very interested. Of course all of this could change tomorrow...but don't hold your breath.

Yeah, we all want to dream....  
Capitol and the BBs don't/won't care what the fans want, until their reissue products stop selling. Period.
As long as they can add a track or two, and still sell the damn things , they will. If those darn completist fans would just stop buying them, we'd have a chance for better releases.
So, everyone here needs to pledge to now and henceforth refuse to purchase any and all releases that are of this ilk, with no exceptions.  
Can you do it?

...Well we got POB and Bambu at least. Holy Man anyone?

Yer right though, the ones who care the most about the music have the least amount of pull. That be the way it is, homies.

I haven't bought Sounds of Summer or Summer Love Songs yet...not even sure what new stereo versions are on them...but for the two songs I'd like to hear on each record I'm not going to buy for the sole fact that I don't need 37 copies of Catch A Wave and all it's brethren.

I really recommend Summer Love Songs. The stereo version of 'Don't Worry Baby' is fantastic, as well as many other 09 stereo remixes. Even with all the Beach Boys albums I have collected in the last year and a half (since buying Summer Loves Songs) I'd definitely still by SLS for it's beautiful stereo mixes.
____

With the success that the Beatles and Bob Dylan had with their mono boxsets it would only make sense that America's Band would do the same (especially with their 50th coming up)....along with it (not unlike Dylan's 'Witmark Demos') It would only make sense that they would issue a 'rarities' album along with it.

What Jon said.

Also, and I say this having recently joined a once-successful '60s band, it's easy to forget that people inside a band do not have the same perspective that a fan does, and because of that can make moves that make perfect sense to their reality, but have fans slapping their foreheads in dismay.  They just ain't where we're at. and the education can be slow and painful (if it happens at all).

It's just that the Beach Boys have a special knack at this, if you will, a God-given talent...

The point of going on about it here is that someone brought it up, a lot of new eyes are reading this stuff who weren't into it 10/20/30 years ago, and it's worth putting on the table for discussion. And if someone reads it and word travels, who knows whose eyes and ears it might reach and spur something on. That's dreaming, sure, but it's definitely on the minds of a lot of fans like myself who think the back catalog and the "unreleased" catalog has a bigger market than some might think.

Back to Rhino - they also consistently release the same kinds of "greatest hits" compilations which sell to the more casual fans, alongside the deluxe editions for the veteran fans.

It is incredible for me - and I work daily with young musicians - to see how much of this "older" music is being rediscovered by younger listeners who know none of the backstory. How heartening and emotional was it for me as a musician and Monkees fan to search YouTube and find teens and pre-teens playing obscure Monkees songs on their own, or with groups and summer camps like the "School Of Rock" franchise of schools who have hosted Monkees tribute nights where kids as young as 11 or 12 are on stage playing the tunes. That is awesome to me, since the music is 45 years old.

The market is there!

I was working for Rhino in '81 to '84 which was right about the time they took their initial steps toward going "all in" regarding the Monkees. Since I was a hardcore fan I voiced my support, and also reminded them that the Beach Boys catalog was attractive. They made gestures toward the Beach Boys many times but were rebuffed.

The Kinks are another '60's' group who sell primarily to the "Greatest Hits" crowd but have also been given the deluxe edition treatment as of late. Some of their best works by far are the more obscure stuff. Ray Davies has always been keen to show the public there's more to him than just "You Really Got Me" and "Sunny Afternoon" etc. Why can't our group be the same?

Man, those Kinks reissues from years back (the early albums through the Lola album) were awesome. I had them all but sold them, back when selling CDs actually got you some cash, thinking I could always buy them again. Now they're all out of print  :-X

That, right there, is your problem. As I think Stebbins and co. have laid out time and time again, none of the surviving Beach Boys -- to say nothing of their label -- is interested in such releases. It's not simply a matter of one or the other parties (the label or the group) disagreeing on what to release or one party attempting to convince the other it's a worthwhile project. It's that neither the label nor the group are interested. No matter the fan/collector support, it doesn't seem like they're suddenly going to become interested after what is likely a decade, if not more, of inquiries on the matter.

It is in these cases that I find leaked or even, yes, bootlegged material to be of value...

I suspect you're absolutely right, but then how did we manage to get the Capitol 2-fers and the Brother Records reissues of 2000?

Maybe if we got everybody to pray at the same time the Good Lord might work his magic...

Or better yet: meditate at the same time

Erik -- Funny story about those. The original twofers came about when everything was being reissued on CD to start with -- it was a prestige thing, and the band had had a number one hit two years before. The brother twofers came out when the rights reverted back to the group and they licensed everything to Capitol -- at that point there was still a bit of a viable reissue program going.

But in the case of the recent reissues, they weren't even going to be twofers. The early albums were going to be mono/stereo versions with bonuses filling up the rest, and the Brother albums would be the original albums and substantial bonus material. But then the plans changed -- no one wanted to bother with the bonus material at all -- and they were thrown onto twofers without any bonus stuff at all. It was botched even then.

Every once in a while, we do get special releases. Such as the Good Vibrations box set, Endless Harmony sdtk and Hawthorne. I was also great to see Feel Flows and Lady on recent releases. We do get these things from time to time, so it isn't unrealistic that we could get more like it. But there will be 10 greatest hits between them.

Speaking of which, how good a guitar player is Carl?

Is this Carl on lead guitar on this track?

She's Mine (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s50tNKC2us4)

If so, that's a pretty kickin' solo, if a somewhat mediocre song.

I don't remember Carl playing lead on any of his solo stuff...I could be wrong about that.  But I remember looking for it at the time and not seeing it.

I think you're right Adam; I quick perusal of the Youngblood wiki shows Jeff Baxter as the producer and guitar player in the musicians credit.  Probably the Skunk.  Although I do love Carl's solos they're usually a model of efficiency, nothing to flashy...just sort of hits the spot.  Think "Long Promised Road".  Still, the guitar is about the best thing going in "She's Mine"!

Carl's solo material reminds me of early Petra songs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gx9K4qdCGlY

Reading this thread made me think of something else - how good a guitar player was Carl, anyway?

To sum it up, they blew it, they blew it consistently, they continue
to blow it, it is tragic and this pathological problem caused The
Beach Boys' greatest music to be so underrated by the general public.


- Jack Rieley





I love this quote...unfortunately it's so true...

I'm pretty sure Carl played one of the solos on "Rockin' All Over The World", but that's probably it.
Interestingly, Carl is the only guitarist on many of the early AFM contracts for these sessions...which doesn't mean more guitar wasn't overdubbed later by someone else, but Jeff Baxter's name appears only on the contracts for "Givin' You Up" and "What You Do To Me".

Elliott Randall appears on the contracts for "Givin' You Up" (there's a total of four guitarists on that contract, including Carl), "Rockin' All Over The World", an untitled contract (probably for "One More Night Alone"), and "What You Do To Me".

Trevor Veitch appears as a guitarist on "Goin' Down" (possibly a working title for "If I Could Talk To Love") and "Givin' You Up".

"It's Too Early To Tell" was cut with Carl's road band, including guitarist John Daly.

Interestingly, the only contract with pianist Nicky Hopkins' name is "What You Do To Me", cut months after the rest of the album.  The one song that sounds the most like it has Nicky Hopkins on it, "She's Mine", has no keyboardist name listed on the contract.

He sure did rip it up live. Unfortunately the mix is terrible.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aT87QI4zXFg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aT87QI4zXFg)

Always wondered why Carl didn't do what he said he wanted to do with his solo stuff, that is let some Rock'n'Roll out of his system, which would include some guitar solos imo

I don't think playing solos is necessarily a part of rocking. Maybe he just wanted to be a part of a rock vibe, playing rhythm and singing. That role is no less rock than soloing, in my opinion. In fact, rock 'n' roll is built on the rhythm guitar (a person could argue).

I think he meant rocking out singing, more than anything.

That's not what I meant, sorry, I thought that Carl, who was the leadguitar-player in one of the biggest bands ever, would solo more when doing his own stuff (I also thought he would be the producer), it wasn't meant as a general thing, just that I would've thought of Carl in that way. On the other hand, there's not too much Rock'n'Roll is his solo work to be found and many of it is just average at best.

I think more than anything this is the biggest disappointment with Carl's solo albums.  Nothing here rocks as hard as his solo productions from "Surf's Up" or "So Tough".  Ironically, the Carl produced Ricci Martin album "Beached" sounds more like what I'd want a Carl Wilson solo album to sound like.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aT87QI4zXFg

Youtube used to have the Carl-penned "Everybody Knows Your Name" but it looks like that was taken down.  That track dates from the "15 Big Ones" era and it definitely has that "So Tough" chugging rhythm to it.  I expected more of that sound on Carl's solo album.

Now that I agree with.

Sort of on this topic:

After AGD posted a link to the youtube 'Behind the Sounds' series on the blueboard, I had a listen to the That's Not Me episode.

Cark's 12-string guitar overdubs really stood out for me...such great tone, and this was from plugging straight into the console...a simple part for sure but so cool I think :)

"you read your guitar book, Carl?" never fails to crack me up

i attended a beach boys concert in charleston, wv in, i think, october 1985. group came out and started the show. i was in the 4th row right in front of carl. i was wearing a yellow love you t-shirt i got from brother back in 1977. had the love you cover on it. carl stared at me and that t-shirt the whole show. best part was carl played all the leads. he played what jeff usually played and jeff played what carl usually did. i was in awe. and the sound rocked. had never seen carl so into playing like that. at one point he even climbed up the drum riser, leaned back in the classic guitarist stance with the guitar pointed straight up, playing away. one of the best rocking beach boys shows i ever saw. i was blown away. he was a wild man that night. he sure played the hell out of the guitar that night.

This post made me grin ear to ear.  That's the Carl I wanna hear about!  How much do we miss him?  Muchly.  Thanks for the wonderful memory Steve.

Wow -- I would love to have seen THAT show! Thanks, Steve.

+1

dennis dragon was a great drummer! The surf punks  rocked!!

I wish Carl really went on with his 'guitar work' and ( maybe he did )

I just wish we could have seen more of it.......... his guitar solo's are 'ass kickin'....


look at the footage of him playin 'fun fun fun' in the 80's on American band.......


sh*t hot!

RickB

Everyone that made the point of how good Carl was at such a young age is dead on! His playing on the Surfin USA album was beyond any other rock guitarist at sixteen years old, I mean c'mon. And he sure as hell blew George Harrison outta the water... The Beach Boys the phenomenal singers they were were just as good musicians as ANY band at that time and NO ONE could play and sing that well and its never been replicated except maybe with a twenty piece band like the fendertones . And as a drummer myself Dennis was the reason I picked up the sticks twelve years ago in my junior year of high school/ and he had the best taste in equipment- gretsch, camco, rogers etc. Cream of the crop .

Me too.  Great post.  Carl was The Bomb.

Carl really rocked out during the group's performance in Hawaii on the Mike Douglas show in 1980 :smokin