BWPS - The Final Verdict

[b00ts]

Beethoven in his life was extremely famous for his improvisation.  we will never hear that side of Beethoven, ever.  likewise, we don't really know if beethovens symphonies as we are used to hearing them are accurate as to his intentions, because we don't know what they sounded like when he directed them. 

I just had this vision of someone coming forward in time from the early 19 th century and hearing a beautiful Beethoven piano piece on CD and saying, "You know, I've heard that piece directly from Beethoven, and this is a piece of merda compared to what I know." Ridiculous, I know, but I think BWPS is dealt a raw deal because people have heard the earlier recordings.

I think you hit the nail on the head here. BWPS unfortunately will always be compared to the original recordings which are the essentially most legendary recordings in the history of rock music.

While I am far from a blueboarder, I must part company with Dennis Moore, however:

The recording was brilliant - or at least I thought so at the time. Eventually as I came down from the initial experience, I was left with the same thoughts I have to this day - Brian's band cannot and will never replace the Beach Boys vocally, and the instrumental performances, while competent, lack all of the mystique, mystery, and uncertainty of those unfinished sessions. "K-Tel repackaging of the Smile music" is very, very accurate when it comes to describing BWPS as an album. Competent, professional, spit-shined, and SAFE. Uncomfortably safe. Smile as a collection of music is NONE of those. It's rambling, incoherent, frightening, and, yes, dangerous. BWPS is NONE of those. BWPS is not Brian's statement of what he deemed to be the unbiased, unequivical truth; the spirituality he felt in his mind. It's a forgery. A mock-up. And I highly, highly doubt there was much, if any, input from the man himself.

BWPS, the album was, then and now, a disgrace and insult - to the Smile music, its legacy, Brian himself, the Beach Boys, and all of us. It's on the same level as Michael Love and Adrian Baker re-recording Beach Boys songs. And that is a damn shame. This music didn't just deserve a proper exhibition, it required and demanded it. And the fact that BWPS, the album, has become the final word, is incredibly distressing and unbelievably sad. Dare I say, it's pathetic.

Dennis, I love your post, and I agree with your summation of the 60's SMiLe.  I happen to adore BWPS; I consider it a definitive version of the work. To you and others who dislike BWPS as "K-Tel repackaging of Smile music," I'd like to posit the following questions:

Is there any way that Brian Wilson, circa 2004, could have put out a new version of SMiLe that would have satisfied you?
What if he used the original masters and built on top of those?
What if he used the living Beach Boys?

Something tells me that no matter what, some people would be talking about how it was a travesty or just not very good at all.

My point is that, in this case, as Amy said, our expectations and the mythology surrounding the album, as well as Brian's mental health and history, colour our reception of BWPS for good and for bad. I remember when the idea of Brian even playing a concert, let alone playing a SMiLe track at a concert, seemed like an impossible dream.

To this day, I can't quite believe just how good BWPS sounds and how well they pulled it off. In my experience, most non-hardcore Beach Boys fans who know the original sessions assume that they used the original master tapes for BWPS. There are some artistic decisions that I don't agree with 100 percent, but there is also artistic continuity and consistency when it comes to the packaging, recording, artwork, and the continued collaborations with VDP to finish the lyrics.

I am interested to hear more about Brian's attitude towards / degree of participation in BWPS. Obviously the buck stops with him since he put his name on it (and wrote and blueprinted the entire thing as well) but I would of course love to know whether or not he was involved with the day to day production.

[Jason]

Mr. b00ts, excellent post. Nice perspective you have there.

As a program of music, BWPS is certainly enjoyable. As a live experience it's one of a kind, the true "Great Thing" that we all hope for in the Beach Boys world but only comes along once in a blue moon. I accept BWPS as a live performance of the Smile music designed to flow and entertain. On that count, it succeeds, and quite admirably.

But the studio recording of BWPS just leaves me cold, cold, cold. None of the magic is there. The Smile recordings from 1966-67, under Brian's supervision, have an ambiance and feel to them that is completely absent from BWPS. The Smile recordings are cult, perverse, and confounding. The bass thunders at such a frequency as to literally beat your heart for you. The sounds achieved on the unfinished recordings are one of a kind and completely the work of a mastermind, if not a genius.

Put simply, the 1966-67 recordings are an accurate description of the music and where Brian was when he produced them - they're disturbed, fractured, fragmented, frightening, occult, and quite possibly insane. BWPS has none of this. There is none of the danger, none of the insanity. Instead it's replaced by an overall cartoon atmosphere. When I hear the original recordings and I think of the name of the album they were supposed to form, irony is the first word that comes to mind. The album's called Smile, but the recordings are so disturbing and frightening that it effectively makes the title a paradox.

Brian said in 1966 that his new sound would "scare a lot of people". The unfinished recordings are proof positive of this. BWPS does not unsettle me. It comforts me. And that is an unforgivable flaw. Brian's state of mind in 1966 was indeed scared and it was on the way to disturbed and out of touch with reality. BWPS, coming from a Brian Wilson who is in a much better place now than he was then, just feels false. It feels unnatural. It's a damning blow to the album and the whole stigma it has attached to the Smile saga. And that is why I hate the fact that it's become the final word on Smile as an album, a story, a mystique, a cult, indeed, the turning point in the Beach Boys' story.

Ideally, a live recording wouldn't have been a problem. Leave it at that. But a studio recording that is riddled with flaws being pegged as the final word? As a fan of Brian Wilson, I cannot and will not accept BWPS as that. And that's something I just have to live with. I certainly can't tell others how to listen to the music. More power to them if they enjoy it. I certainly wouldn't try to deny them their enjoyment of the music. My views are my own. I do not expect them to be shared nor do I secretly wish for it.

And I'm left thinking what I posted earlier. I'm just a dude on a forum, posting a few thoughts and musings. People are inevitably upset by them. I've certainly come to accept that as the truth. And, of course, at the end of the day I am of no importance to the Beach Boys. They're the ones who made the music, who have all of the money and all of the success and respect they've earned and deserved. Wealth, success, respect...the Beach Boys have all of these. Certainly they did something right. And BWPS was a resounding success as far as reception and sales. I certainly can't argue with that.

I, too, live in a little fantasy world when it comes to the Beach Boys and how I like to think of them.

Think about that. I mean, really think about it.

[b00ts]

Brian said in 1966 that his new sound would "scare a lot of people". The unfinished recordings are proof positive of this. BWPS does not unsettle me. It comforts me. And that is an unforgivable flaw. Brian's state of mind in 1966 was indeed scared and it was on the way to disturbed and out of touch with reality. BWPS, coming from a Brian Wilson who is in a much better place now than he was then, just feels false. It feels unnatural. It's a damning blow to the album and the whole stigma it has attached to the Smile saga. And that is why I hate the fact that it's become the final word on Smile as an album, a story, a mystique, a cult, indeed, the turning point in the Beach Boys' story.

Ideally, a live recording wouldn't have been a problem. Leave it at that. But a studio recording that is riddled with flaws being pegged as the final word? As a fan of Brian Wilson, I cannot and will not accept BWPS as that. And that's something I just have to live with. I certainly can't tell others how to listen to the music. More power to them if they enjoy it. I certainly wouldn't try to deny them their enjoyment of the music. My views are my own. I do not expect them to be shared nor do I secretly wish for it.

And I'm left thinking what I posted earlier. I'm just a dude on a forum, posting a few thoughts and musings. People are inevitably upset by them. I've certainly come to accept that as the truth. And, of course, at the end of the day I am of no importance to the Beach Boys. They're the ones who made the music, who have all of the money and all of the success and respect they've earned and deserved. Wealth, success, respect...the Beach Boys have all of these. Certainly they did something right. And BWPS was a resounding success as far as reception and sales. I certainly can't argue with that.

I, too, live in a little fantasy world when it comes to the Beach Boys and how I like to think of them.

Think about that. I mean, really think about it.

Anyone who is upset by your opinion is a weak-minded fool. Nobody's opinion about a piece of art should preclude anyone else from enjoying it. I find it provocative and you make a great case here against BWPS. I can see how it appears that they took the edges off for the 2004 version, and Brian's state of mind, in contrast to his mid-60's mindset, is certainly readily apparent in the 2004 version. Still, I was shocked at how well they replicated the twisted sound of the original sessions using modern technology. I don't think anybody could have done a better job.

As the owner of a vinyl copy of BWPS and a vinyl copy of SMiLe (the 3-disc coloured version) I am going to do some hardcore listening to both with these points in mind. I truly love both versions of SMiLe. I also love Smiley Smile in a different way.

Perhaps there should be some small consolation for you in the fact that they titled the album differently (Brian Wilson Presents...) and gave it a different album cover. Also you can be thankful that the album wasn't finished by Landy in 1989 with lyrics about how tricyclic antidepressants helped Brian overcome the crazy beatings from his father... Smiley Frown.

I heard elsewhere that some of the key band members didn't want to make it into a studio recording - is this true?

[Cam Mott]

I love the music but the recording leaves me cold, maybe for some of the reasons other feel, not sure why really. Again, a great accomplishment for Brian and those involved and I agree it works better live as it was intended, the album is beautifully performed and recorded but is what leaves me cold. On the political side, the substitutions in GV rub me the wrong way; if whoever had the idea explained their thinking to me I probably would get it but in my igorance: wrong way rubbing. Brian performing it live does not rub me the wrong way but Brian releasing it as an album does. Paging Dr. Freud.

[Jonathan Blum]

Hey man, I'm just a dude making small talk on the internet about the Beach Boys. The Beach Boys are the ones who are successful and have all the cash. I'm definitely of the "who am I in the bigger picture" school of thought. But I've been jumped on for less challenging comments about the Beach Boys than my essay in this thread. That's a perverse mentality on the part of those who get their knickers in a knot over some dude on a webforum writing a lot of stuff that they disagree with about a rock band.

...Well, I think there's a bit of a perverse mentality in listening to an album that's that beautiful and hearing "a disgrace and an insult".  If that's your idea of small talk, I'd hate to see you at a cocktail party!  It's not that these comments are "important" in some way, it's just that they seem... well... really embittered.  Like you're not listening to the music, but to a soundtrack recording of years of internet arguments and decades of band politics among people you don't actually know.  That can't possibly be fun.

And as for the idea that the completed Smile is wrong because it's not dangerous and insane...  I tend to think that's more of a reason why the original one failed, and was never completed.  Because Brian didn't want to make a nightmare, he didn't want the title to be ironic -- he wanted to leave people smiling.  A less disturbing disc is closer to his original intentions -- it's not a failure because it's not deranged in the same way.

But this doesn't stop me loving the original recordings as something quite different...  they're a fascinating exploration of all sorts of different emotional states, highs and lows, an almost unfiltered work in progress -- pure creativity.

Put it another way?  The original, puzzlebox Smile recordings are a thing of beauty; the completed Smile is a joy forever.  Neither one renders the other wrong.

Cheers,
Jon Blum

[the captain]

Boring negativity is as boring as the Blueboard's positivity. And calling BWPS an insult is an insult to the very talented people who did it. Feel free to post your best work for similar judgment.

[Sheriff John Stone]

And calling BWPS an insult is an insult to the very talented people who did it. Feel free to post your best work for similar judgment.

Give me a break. That's a bunch of politically correct, sucking up to the majority, irrelevant crap. He already stated twice that he was just a dude on the internet making small talk, posting a few thoughts and musings about the Beach Boys. Since when does a poster on a rock & roll message board have to compare his musical talent or "best work" with professional musicians before he's worthy to express an opinion - either negative or positive. You've stated several times in your posts, in a self-deprecating manner, how your opinion is just that, an opinion, and it doesn't really mean much in the big picture. That's how I interpreted it, anyway. Why do you make this poster more accountable? Because you don't agree with it, or because more "honored guests" don't agree with it? And, as far as "insulting the people who did it"? Yeah, we don't wanna hurt their feelings, I mean, we're such good buddies....

[armona]

Interesting thread. I've never believed that BWPS was an attempt to finish what would have been the original album, and I'm really glad Brian did not touch the original tapes for BWPS. Very wise leave those originals in the past. "Brian Wilson Presents" has elements that would never have been on the original album, such as the lyrics over the water chant, which VanDyke intended were written as a moment of cleansing for Brian's mental hell. The only way Brian would have gotten near any of the Smile material was to do it live, and while they were rehearsing for the 04 shows, Jeff F. pointed out that they were not trying to recreate the mystique of the original Smile, just trying to perform the songs. Using that approach, it would have been pretty silly to try to recreate the mystique in the studio after the live shows were performed. I think they were wise enough to realize that that would have been an impossible task. Had the album just been called "Smile", used the original artwork, and use the original backing tracks I would have taken issue with BWPS as an attempt to masquerade as completion of the original work. I don't think that's the case here so much as BWPS is a 2004 interpretation of the original material. If it allows the guy to exorcise some of the demons in his head and actually feel good about the music, and get on with his life, so much the better. I strongly doubt TLOS would be what it is if BWPS hadn't happened.

Even though I prefer the original Smile, I'm thankful to have both, and I'm really thankful BWPS came out because it piqued my curiosity enough to go and get the Good Vibrations boxset and seek out the original recordings--all that probably would never have happened without BWPS.

[the captain]

Yeah, i'm all about political correctness. My track record shows that.

[Mr. Cohen]

I love BWPS. It's not a lot of us associate with the Smile sessions, and maybe that is why it can be off-putting. But judged on its own merits, it is amazing.

[runnersdialzero]

I'm not sure where people are getting this "Brian wanted to scare people" idea from.

Marilyn Manson he was not - he realized how different and strange this music might be interpreted as being to some people. But did he set out to freak people out? Nah. That's why I don't understand the "travesty" claims - is BWPS a bit "safer" than what a 67 Smile might have been? Shore. Is it still pretty "out there" - dangerous, weird, etc. in a lot of ways? Yes.

I also agree with this:

And as for the idea that the completed Smile is wrong because it's not dangerous and insane...  I tend to think that's more of a reason why the original one failed, and was never completed.  Because Brian didn't want to make a nightmare, he didn't want the title to be ironic -- he wanted to leave people smiling.  A less disturbing disc is closer to his original intentions -- it's not a failure because it's not deranged in the same way.

...

Put it another way?  The original, puzzlebox Smile recordings are a thing of beauty; the completed Smile is a joy forever.  Neither one renders the other wrong.

Yes. Yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes.

Smile, Pet Sounds, everything around that time - Brian's whole thing about songwriting at the time was wanting to take the listener to some place different, somewhere where they'd neve been before. With Smile, he wasn't setting out to be pretentious and arty for the sake of pretentious and arty, it was never about scaring, offending, freaking people out for the sake of those things. Again, Brian realized it was different, he was simply stating that he recognized people would think it was different.

[SG7]

I'm happy for what BWPS is than what its not. It's not the 66 - 67 version, it doesn't have the beach boys or the wrecking crew.  It's a modern adaptation of what could have been. I can't tell you how many people became fans through this album or hearing about it (me for example). Will it stand the test of time? I'm not sure and no one is here can judge that. It met a purpose and a need. A purpose to finally kick the past in the teeth and bring new folks into the fold. Nothing wrong with that. The live shows were amazing and special to me. I wish every fan could have seen one of the shows. It sealed my fate as a fan.   

[Ebb and Flow]

BWPS might be ultimately fulfilling for those involved, and for fans who want "closure".  Personally: I hate the production, a great deal of the sequencing and nearly all of the lyrical additions.  I think the original sessions are great, timeless works of art and BWPS just...isn't that at all.

In 50 years, when all participants will be dead, and in all likelihood an official Smile Sessions box is released...I think BWPS will largely be considered a musical footnote in the legacy of Smile.  They'll all still listen to the demo of Surf's Up and wonder what could have been.

[Andrew G. Doe]

I'm not sure where people are getting this "Brian wanted to scare people" idea from.

Brian, quoted in the Jules Siegel article.

[runnersdialzero]

I'm not sure where people are getting this "Brian wanted to scare people" idea from.

Brian, quoted in the Jules Siegel article.

Still - he wasn't writing solely to freak everyone out like people here are saying. I'm sure they know that, but they're talking like it's the most important thing about Smile when it really isn't. Smile was written from Brian's heart, not his ego.

[Jonathan Blum]

I'm not sure where people are getting this "Brian wanted to scare people" idea from.

Brian, quoted in the Jules Siegel article.

Seems to me he recognized that it would scare people, not that it was meant to.  The way "Pet Sounds" scared some people and made them think they shouldn't be messing with the formula -- doesn't mean he wanted that to be a bad trip either!

Also, of course, we know that Brian backed away from various bits as being too scary.  So as a statement of his intentions, I don't think it works...

Cheers,
Jon Blum

[TdHabib]

Darian has feelings:

My wife and I were fortunate enough to have spent some time with both Darian and Probyn Gregory in New Orleans after Bran's show at Jazzfest last year. (it was gumbo at the Gumbo Shop in the French Quarter, but I digress) I, of course was peppering Darian with questions about the SMiLE CD and he was happy to indulge me. Dee (who keeps pretty quiet around discussions like this) flat out asks Darian (I had been telling her about the comments over the last 2 and a half years about Brian's true involvement with the project) "what do say to those who say the CD is just Darian's fanmix?" He looked shocked as hell. Probyn then interjected, "Darian's track list might be more interesting than what we did play". Darian asks "what do you mean by 'Darian's fanmix?" I explain the rumours and the scutlebutt and the cynicism. He responds, "I was just doing what I was told. Every decision was Brian's". Darian, of course did the hard work or researching the material which he then presented to Brian, but it was ultimately Brian's decision. Nobody did it for him. It wasn't Melinda approving of the final sequencing,  it was Brian.

And before ANYONE says he is in it for the money you better remember that he was close to quitting the BW band because "Caroline, No" was being played the Joe Thomas way. And he objects strongly (I was told this first hand) when people aren't being faithful to the original arrangements. AND BW tours almost never make money.

[runnersdialzero]

Darian has feelings:

My wife and I were fortunate enough to have spent some time with both Darian and Probyn Gregory in New Orleans after Bran's show at Jazzfest last year. (it was gumbo at the Gumbo Shop in the French Quarter, but I digress) I, of course was peppering Darian with questions about the SMiLE CD and he was happy to indulge me. Dee (who keeps pretty quiet around discussions like this) flat out asks Darian (I had been telling her about the comments over the last 2 and a half years about Brian's true involvement with the project) "what do say to those who say the CD is just Darian's fanmix?" He looked shocked as hell. Probyn then interjected, "Darian's track list might be more interesting than what we did play". Darian asks "what do you mean by 'Darian's fanmix?" I explain the rumours and the scutlebutt and the cynicism. He responds, "I was just doing what I was told. Every decision was Brian's". Darian, of course did the hard work or researching the material which he then presented to Brian, but it was ultimately Brian's decision. Nobody did it for him. It wasn't Melinda approving of the final sequencing,  it was Brian.

And before ANYONE says he is in it for the money you better remember that he was close to quitting the BW band because "Caroline, No" was being played the Joe Thomas way. And he objects strongly (I was told this first hand) when people aren't being faithful to the original arrangements. AND BW tours almost never make money.

And I keep finding more and more reasons to like Darian.

[Bean Bag]

I've been revisiting SMiLE music lately...both new and old.  I firmly believe that BWPS is two things;

1.  The studio equivalent of Brian's live performance of Pet Sounds.  You can't compare the original Pet Sounds to Brian's Live version.  I enjoy both...the live version of Pet Sounds is a pleasant modern performance...and the original Pet Sounds is brooding, soulful and tortured.  It's not fair to compare...they're almost different works.  Likewise, the original SMiLE sessions were dark, mysterious and full of pain and emotion - and captured the wonder of experimentation, exploration and youthful exuberance AS IT HAPPENED.  BWPS is only a revisiting of this great music...and can't be compared to the original.  It's just not right to do so.

2.  A completion of the sessions.  Obviously Brian needed to complete the sessions to realize the work -- the SMiLE "quilt" needed to use some newly purchased materials and some new fingers to do the stitching.  I don't know where exactly the all the new elements are...but that's not the point.  The point is Brian needed to "finish" the work done 37 years prior.  So...BWPS is now integral to the total SMiLE experience.


I've been listening mostly to my SMiLE quilt lately -- made ONLY from the original SMiLE pieces -- but assembled according to the finished "picture" provided by the BWPS puzzle box.  So there's missing pieces and no vocals in spots.  But the results are so incredible.  It's simply stunning.  It is an amazing album to believe to have existed in 1967, that's for damn sure!  It's a record that seems silly at times -- downright crazy, and yes SCARY at others -- but it's powerful and sophisticated beyond category.

BWPS, using only 1967 SMiLE music, provides all the power, mystery and the full range of emotions of those 1967 recordings -- the fear, humor, fun, love, excitement, dreaming and longing -- but with the MUST NEEDED total picture for it all to be consumed.  Otherwise, without the completed picture provided by Brian 37 years later -- it's as chaotic and rambling as ANYBODY's journal would be if someone ripped the pages out and threw them into the wind.

[The Heartical Don]

I've been revisiting SMiLE music lately...both new and old.  I firmly believe that BWPS is two things;

1.  The studio equivalent of Brian's live performance of Pet Sounds.  You can't compare the original Pet Sounds to Brian's Live version.  I enjoy both...the live version of Pet Sounds is a pleasant modern performance...and the original Pet Sounds is brooding, soulful and tortured.  It's not fair to compare...they're almost different works.  Likewise, the original SMiLE sessions were dark, mysterious and full of pain and emotion - and captured the wonder of experimentation, exploration and youthful exuberance AS IT HAPPENED.  BWPS is only a revisiting of this great music...and can't be compared to the original.  It's just not right to do so.

2.  A completion of the sessions.  Obviously Brian needed to complete the sessions to realize the work -- the SMiLE "quilt" needed to use some newly purchased materials and some new fingers to do the stitching.  I don't know where exactly the all the new elements are...but that's not the point.  The point is Brian needed to "finish" the work done 37 years prior.  So...BWPS is now integral to the total SMiLE experience.


I've been listening mostly to my SMiLE quilt lately -- made ONLY from the original SMiLE pieces -- but assembled according to the finished "picture" provided by the BWPS puzzle box.  So there's missing pieces and no vocals in spots.  But the results are so incredible.  It's simply stunning.  It is an amazing album to believe to have existed in 1967, that's for damn sure!  It's a record that seems silly at times -- downright crazy, and yes SCARY at others -- but it's powerful and sophisticated beyond category.

BWPS, using only 1967 SMiLE music, provides all the power, mystery and the full range of emotions of those 1967 recordings -- the fear, humor, fun, love, excitement, dreaming and longing -- but with the MUST NEEDED total picture for it all to be consumed.  Otherwise, without the completed picture provided by Brian 37 years later -- it's as chaotic and rambling as ANYBODY's journal would be if someone ripped the pages out and threw them into the wind.

That is a pretty powerful and well-thought through post, sir. I salute you.

[Roger Ryan]

I will only add again that Brian has often used the term "scary" to mean "amazing" or "surprising" (as well as actually scary too!). I believe his initial intention with SMiLE was to amaze and surprise people. He was also on record stating that he wanted to make an album that was lighter in tone than PET SOUNDS which he correctly perceived as melancholic. To me, the most effective moments found in the original SMiLE sessions are the ones that lift the spirits with their artistry. BWPS fulfills that original intention. Everything about the arrangements to the art direction supports a particular vision that is remarkably joyous without being simplistic or sentimental. Certainly it is impossible to capture lightning in the bottle twice and therefore the 2004 sessions and vocals are probably less than their 60s counterparts (although personally I find the vocal arrangement of "Surf's Up" to be definitive), but how amazingly close they came in creating these most delightful "cover versions".

...And, in the end, "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow" still scared some folks who could not believe that "noise created by a mad man" could win a Grammy!

[Mike's Beard]

I've always found the music of Smile to be joyfull or reflective, depending on which song I'm listening to at the time. The only one that could be called scary to me is "Mrs. Leary's Cow". That song reminds me of some of Frank Zappa and The Mothers of Invention early freaky weirdness.

[Bean Bag]

I find the bicycle rider theme to be the most scary -- actually, it's the longer instrumental bicycle/heroes "section" from the Good Vibes box that I'm referring to.  You know what I'm talking about?  It starts off with the lone piano (or two) then the bass and organ kick in (boom-boom-boom-boom).  Spooky stuff...with the tambourine sounding like chains dragging in a dungeon.

Dude, that's heavy stuff.  Hauntingly terrifying, actually.

[Synth Wash]

This whole discussion was rendered moot when Weird Al Yankovic released THE definitive SMiLE track, "My Pancreas".  When I listen to either BWPS or the original tracks, I just think about how I could be listening to My Pancreas instead.

Same goes for all pre-1966 Beach Boys material. Why listen to that inferior garbage when I can hear "Trigger Happy" from Al's "Off the Deep End" album?

[Jason]

Great, great thread. This has been a lot of fun to read.

Well, I think there's a bit of a perverse mentality in listening to an album that's that beautiful and hearing "a disgrace and an insult". It's not that these comments are "important" in some way, it's just that they seem... well... really embittered.  Like you're not listening to the music, but to a soundtrack recording of years of internet arguments and decades of band politics among people you don't actually know.  That can't possibly be fun.

Regarding your first point, Jon, the reaction in France to the premiere of Stravinsky's Rite of Spring ballet must have been the product of a perverse mentality, because people were indeed quite insulted by what they heard, as it too confounded them.

However, I wouldn't say that my comments are embittered. Cynical, definitely. Challenging, perhaps. Embittered? Not really. As I've stated before, I know I'm in a select minority with my feelings on BWPS. I would say that my comments come from the perspective of someone who, as merely a fan and listener, is too close to the Smile thing to see it in a proper context. And that's where the cynicism comes in.

Listening to BWPS isn't analogous to me revisiting any number of arguments on this board and others about the whole Smile thing. It's merely the presentation and its after effects that bugs me, for the reasons I've mentioned before. That's my problem. A few agree with me, many, many more disagree. That's fine. That's life. More power to and God help us all for being honest with ourselves and making our own judgments. You like it, you like it. If not, then you don't. I certainly have not gone around consciously looking for reasons to dislike BWPS.

And as for the idea that the completed Smile is wrong because it's not dangerous and insane...  I tend to think that's more of a reason why the original one failed, and was never completed.  Because Brian didn't want to make a nightmare, he didn't want the title to be ironic -- he wanted to leave people smiling.  A less disturbing disc is closer to his original intentions -- it's not a failure because it's not deranged in the same way.

But this doesn't stop me loving the original recordings as something quite different...  they're a fascinating exploration of all sorts of different emotional states, highs and lows, an almost unfiltered work in progress -- pure creativity.

This argument is where we get into the pure "wishful thinking" scenario. I am quite aware that Brian wasn't out to create some kind of Black Mass in musical form with Smile. Brian still wanted commercial appeal in 1967. A proverbial "Black Mass in musical form" would have been commercially stillborn from its inception. But the inherent darkness and musical confrontation is evident in the sounds, the melodies, the vocal lines. I do believe that Brian was aware that there was a radical departure involved in the Smile project, if not so much the musical mechanics, then definitely in the exection and style.

From a mere compositional perspective, Smile is simultaneously more and less complicated than Pet Sounds. Much of the material on Smile is not riddled with chords. In a lot of cases, we're talking mainly two or three chords. Heroes and Villains at its most basic is two chords. Vega-Tables is three chords. And keep in mind how there are so many repeated musical lines in different songs, not to mention the variations on the musical themes that popped up in so many of the fragments. Essentially, the compositional mechanics are not wholly Greek, even to the unseasoned and untrained listener. The vocal melodies are where Brian really hit his zenith; essentially he surpassed himself to such a degree that it was inevitable he would never come up with something even close to that level ever again. Smile was by far his greatest achievement when it came to writing vocal melodies, harmonies, and counterpoints. We're not really in the realm of "difficult music" as far as the actual composition unless we're talking harmonies, and then we're into really, really uncharted areas.

But the way these songs were arranged and constructed in the recording studio tells a different story. The musical invention from an instrumental perspective on Pet Sounds was taken to a completely different level on Smile. Combinations of instruments combined with uncommon instruments in popular music really do color this material. Sonically, it's unlike anything Brian had ever attempted before or since.

But, as put a while back, Smile was essentially an expression of the spirituality in Brian's mind, and his personal statement as to what he saw as the truth. And the way he expressed his feelings in music just happened to spill out in such a way that was unsettling. I don't think Brian intended Smile to be an ironic title, but when you take that title with what was recorded, we're left with the paradox, in my opinion. Certainly not intended, but that's what it certainly feels like to me. My disagreement with BWPS lacking this feeling of fear and malevolence is mainly a personal thing, although some in this thread have expressed feelings that some of the sounds in the music are indeed a bit eerie.

Just my two cents but only a penny for my thoughts, perhaps.