SMILE tracks on 1993 boxed set

[Andrew G. Doe]

Things is, that fade is another variation on the Bicycle Rider theme!  Wasn't eh tale that David Leaf had it edited on to Veggies as a surreptitious way of getting more SMiLE material released officially under Brian's nose?

That's what David told me in a conversation about the box back in the 90s - to get more Smile stuff on the set without paying out any more in mechanicals. Mark is doubtless correct in saying that he didn't edit "Vegetables" - but someone else sure as hell did. 

[The Shift]

Things is, that fade is another variation on the Bicycle Rider theme!  Wasn't eh tale that David Leaf had it edited on to Veggies as a surreptitious way of getting more SMiLE material released officially under Brian's nose? To my ears it had nothing to do with Veggies and the fact that it resembles the mid-section of Smiley Veggies was DL's excuse for sneaking it on to the SMiLE version.

'Course, recycling riffs between songs and even between movements would not have been out-of-the-question for SMiLE. 

Correction: I meant  to say: "the fact that it resembles the mid-section of Smiley Wonderful was DL's excuse for sneaking it on to the SMiLE version"...

[buddhahat]

I remember asking on this board if that last section of Vegetables actually was originally intended for it as it sounds so out of place, and the response was fairly unanimous that Brian did record it to be part of Vegetables. IIRC the evidence was that it was found on a vegeatbles tape box or something. So am I now to understand that david Leaf just shoe-horned that section 3 in from another song - possibly Heroes or Wondeful, to get more Smile material on the box? Can anyone clarify where that Vegetables section 3 actually should go?!

[Roger Ryan]

Wasn't this section listed on the original tape box as "Vegetables Fade"?

[buddhahat]

Wasn't this section listed on the original tape box as "Vegetables Fade"?

Yes I think that's what I remember being told when I previously asked about it. It seems unlikely to me that david Leaf would get somebody to edit part of another song on to vegetables to get more smile material on the box - seems a bit arbitrary to me. Surely it's more likely that they edited the fade on to vegetables because they believed it to be the actual fade to that song (despite its incongruity to the rest of the song).

[Andrew G. Doe]

Wasn't this section listed on the original tape box as "Vegetables Fade"?

Yes I think that's what I remember being told when I previously asked about it. It seems unlikely to me that david Leaf would get somebody to edit part of another song on to vegetables to get more smile material on the box - seems a bit arbitrary to me.

Be that as it may, that's what exactly what he told me in 1993.  But then, what would he know - he's only one of the producers of the set.

Of course, the other possibility is that I'm fabricating said conversation.

[buddhahat]

Wasn't this section listed on the original tape box as "Vegetables Fade"?

Yes I think that's what I remember being told when I previously asked about it. It seems unlikely to me that david Leaf would get somebody to edit part of another song on to vegetables to get more smile material on the box - seems a bit arbitrary to me.

Be that as it may, that's what exactly what he told me in 1993.  But then, what would he know - he's only one of the producers of the set.

Of course, the other possibility is that I'm fabricating said conversation.

There's no need for sarcasm -  I was saying that editing part of a different song in to vegetables would be arbitrary. I wasn't claiming that you fabricated anything. As far as I can tell you don't say directly that David claimed to have shoe-horned part of a different song on to Vegetables - just that he wanted to get as much smile material in there as possible, so my post doesn't contradict your recollection, unless David told you "yes we stuck part of Wonderful on the end just to get as much Smile material on the box as possible." Vegetables doesn't need that fade - it does sound out of place. So the decision to stick it on the end could have been entirely in the spirit of maximising the Smile portion of the box, as David told you. Anyway I'm not you so I have no idea exactly what he said - what did he tell you exactly?

[Jeff]

If it were as simple as just including more Smile material, and the tag actually belonged to Wonderful, whay would he not just have added it on to Wonderful?

[TdHabib]

Wasn't this section listed on the original tape box as "Vegetables Fade"?

Of course, the other possibility is that I'm fabricating said conversation.

Your memory's getting senile

[Andrew G. Doe]

Wasn't this section listed on the original tape box as "Vegetables Fade"?

Yes I think that's what I remember being told when I previously asked about it. It seems unlikely to me that david Leaf would get somebody to edit part of another song on to vegetables to get more smile material on the box - seems a bit arbitrary to me.

Be that as it may, that's what exactly what he told me in 1993.  But then, what would he know - he's only one of the producers of the set.

Of course, the other possibility is that I'm fabricating said conversation.

There's no need for sarcasm -  I was saying that editing part of a different song in to vegetables would be arbitrary. I wasn't claiming that you fabricated anything. As far as I can tell you don't say directly that David claimed to have shoe-horned part of a different song on to Vegetables - just that he wanted to get as much smile material in there as possible, so my post doesn't contradict your recollection, unless David told you "yes we stuck part of Wonderful on the end just to get as much Smile material on the box as possible." Vegetables doesn't need that fade - it does sound out of place. So the decision to stick it on the end could have been entirely in the spirit of maximising the Smile portion of the box, as David told you. Anyway I'm not you so I have no idea exactly what he said - what did he tell you exactly?

I asked David why the tag of "Vega-tables" was pretty obviously a variation on the "Wonderful" riff, and he replied that it was cross-faded into it to sneak a little bit more of Smile onto the box without having to pay any more mechanicals (which is also, btw, why every track on disc 5 turns up somewhere else on the box).

I think if I've explained - twice - why the tag was there and apparently had said explanation questioned entitles me to a little mild sarcasm. 

[Mr. Cohen]

But Doe, my gut tells me to doubt that the "Vege-tables" tag was placed there arbitrarily. And the gut has more nerve endings than the brain, plus the most blood flow. And if you doubt that, think about it from your gut...

So, the "Vege-tables" tag was put there by Brian. End of story.

[Jason]

End of story.

Bold statement in a Smile thread. Kudos.

[buddhahat]

Wasn't this section listed on the original tape box as "Vegetables Fade"?

Yes I think that's what I remember being told when I previously asked about it. It seems unlikely to me that david Leaf would get somebody to edit part of another song on to vegetables to get more smile material on the box - seems a bit arbitrary to me.

Be that as it may, that's what exactly what he told me in 1993.  But then, what would he know - he's only one of the producers of the set.

Of course, the other possibility is that I'm fabricating said conversation.

There's no need for sarcasm -  I was saying that editing part of a different song in to vegetables would be arbitrary. I wasn't claiming that you fabricated anything. As far as I can tell you don't say directly that David claimed to have shoe-horned part of a different song on to Vegetables - just that he wanted to get as much smile material in there as possible, so my post doesn't contradict your recollection, unless David told you "yes we stuck part of Wonderful on the end just to get as much Smile material on the box as possible." Vegetables doesn't need that fade - it does sound out of place. So the decision to stick it on the end could have been entirely in the spirit of maximising the Smile portion of the box, as David told you. Anyway I'm not you so I have no idea exactly what he said - what did he tell you exactly?

I asked David why the tag of "Vega-tables" was pretty obviously a variation on the "Wonderful" riff, and he replied that it was cross-faded into it to sneak a little bit more of Smile onto the box without having to pay any more mechanicals (which is also, btw, why every track on disc 5 turns up somewhere else on the box).

I think if I've explained - twice - why the tag was there and apparently had said explanation questioned entitles me to a little mild sarcasm. 

Well I think the coincidence of it being labelled Vegetables Fade on a tape box, and its inclusion as the fade to Vegetables on the boxset entitles me to question the validity of any claim that it was actually part of Wonderful. As Jeff point out, why not edit it onto Wonderful where it allegedly belonged? You were just questioning another historian's recollection of events in another thread (the redwood, Brian in tears episode) and now I'm questioning yours - not directly challenging mind - just questioning. Surely it's all part of the process?

[The Song Of The Grange]

On the topic of this Fade To Vegetables, does anyone know if the "radio spot" that appears on the Hawthorne CA release is Brains work, or the work of who ever put together the compilation?  The box set Vegetable fade provides the back ground music for the chants and skits.  If this was a production circa 1967 then it would lend weight to the idea that the Vegetable fade music was at least considered part of the Vegetables family of fragments.  I for one am not convinced that the Vegetables fade had anything to do with Wonderful until it was put to use in the Smiley Smile version, which by the way, also has the Bicycle Rider melody running through it on the piano.  I would love to be convinced, however.

The Fade to Vegetables has a lot in common with the fade to the Cantina version of Heroes and Villains (plus other versions of this music), with Bicycle Rider, with the second section of the box set version of Wind Chimes, with Mrs. O'Leary's Cow, with He Gives Speeches, and with the backing  music to a few version so Do A Lot.  There was definitely a theme at work here.

[Jason]

The "radio spot" is fake, it uses segments from a profanity-ridden 25 minute tape of Brian, Michael Vosse, and Hal Blaine bullshitting about vegetables over the track of the fade.

[ESQ Editor]

This might help, but so much has happened since 1994, it might not.

In an interview with ESQ in September of 1994 regarding the box set Mark Linett said, "…Anything that we were trying to present as some kind of representation of an original that we don't have… Somewhere there must have been an accurate mix of 'Vega-Tables' in some form. All that work that represents 'Vega-Tables' was done in one day, as far as I can tell. And I'm sure Brian did a mix to represent that so that he could listen to it. It ain't here, and it ain't been bootlegged, so where is it?"

[Sheriff John Stone]

Maybe that fade on the boxed-set "Vegetables" was added by SOMEBODY other than Brian, but I hope it wasn't David Leaf. Not that I'm jumping to conclusions, or blaming him, but this would be the David Leaf, who's book, The Beach Boys And The California Myth, is loaded with insinuatons about people (especially Mike Love) messing with Brian's artistic vision. If Brian didn't add that fade on the boxed-set, and David Leaf supported it, wouldn't that be hypocrisy of the highest degree?

[A Million Units In Jan!]

I asked David why the tag of "Vega-tables" was pretty obviously a variation on the "Wonderful" riff, and he replied that it was cross-faded into it to sneak a little bit more of Smile onto the box without having to pay any more mechanicals (which is also, btw, why every track on disc 5 turns up somewhere else on the box).

I think if I've explained - twice - why the tag was there and apparently had said explanation questioned entitles me to a little mild sarcasm. 

Do I get the feeling that whenever anyone questions you on anything, you're insulted?

[Andrew G. Doe]

I asked David why the tag of "Vega-tables" was pretty obviously a variation on the "Wonderful" riff, and he replied that it was cross-faded into it to sneak a little bit more of Smile onto the box without having to pay any more mechanicals (which is also, btw, why every track on disc 5 turns up somewhere else on the box).

I think if I've explained - twice - why the tag was there and apparently had said explanation questioned entitles me to a little mild sarcasm. 

Do I get the feeling that whenever anyone questions you on anything, you're insulted?

Nope - only when they ignore my answers or explanations. Twice. 

[A Million Units In Jan!]

Gotcha

[Jeff]

Here are links to earlier discussions involving Fade to Vegetables:

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,2726.0.html

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,5024.0.html

[The Song Of The Grange]

Here are links to earlier discussions involving Fade to Vegetables:

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,2726.0.html

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,5024.0.html

Thank you Jeff for these references.  Have you or anyone else found a good was to search the many pages of this message board?  When I post I am always worried I am just rehashing something from 3 years ago.  There is a real treasure trove of info in these pages.

[Black Tiger]

Try the "Search" function at the top of the page! 

[Jason]

Nope - only when they ignore my answers or explanations. Twice. 

Ba-dum-CHING.

[Jeff]

Here are links to earlier discussions involving Fade to Vegetables:

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,2726.0.html

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,5024.0.html

Thank you Jeff for these references.  Have you or anyone else found a good was to search the many pages of this message board?  When I post I am always worried I am just rehashing something from 3 years ago.  There is a real treasure trove of info in these pages.

I agree with Black Tiger that the search function is very useful.  I'd also say that it's best not to be afraid of bringing up things that were discussed in the past, b/c knowledge of Smile, amazingly, is still evolving.  It wasn't that long ago that people still thought Holidays = Tones.  So questioning the established wisdom can be a good thing...