SMILE tracks on 1993 boxed set

[Dove Nested Towers]

But Doe, my gut tells me to doubt that the "Vege-tables" tag was placed there arbitrarily. And the gut has more nerve endings than the brain, plus the most blood flow. And if you doubt that, think about it from your gut...

So, the "Vege-tables" tag was put there by Brian. End of story.

The "fade to Vege-tables" tag flows beautifully to my ears, even if it's not completely in synch
with the rest of the song, and if it really was in a tape box originally labeled "Fade to Vegetables"
that's pretty powerful evidence, if indeed that was what the box said.

It sounds plausible that even if Leaf's motivation was to get more Smile material on the box without
paying the "mechanicals" that goal may have dovetailed nicely with his or the actual editor's belief
that it was originally indended for the end of that song, and was restored there, or Brian's edit in-
cluding it was located for inclusion.

My "gut" tells me that it belongs there also.

[Andrew G. Doe]

But Doe, my gut tells me to doubt that the "Vege-tables" tag was placed there arbitrarily. And the gut has more nerve endings than the brain, plus the most blood flow. And if you doubt that, think about it from your gut...

So, the "Vege-tables" tag was put there by Brian. End of story.

I'm merely recounting what David Leaf, who co-produced the box, told me in late 1993, in a phone conversation, in response to my direct query. Many people have issues with him - myself included - but I've known him for years and don't doubt his integrity in these matters. Plus, if it truly was "Fade To Vega-tables", the mechanicals problem wouldn't have arisen as he could have very reasonably claimed it was merely another section of the same song. That's my side of the story. 

PS: it's not an edit, it's a cross-fade... and I don't recall Brian using that anywhere else in Smile. Or, indeed, anywhere else... unless someone's memory is better than mine (not difficult, I'll confess).

[buddhahat]

I asked David why the tag of "Vega-tables" was pretty obviously a variation on the "Wonderful" riff, and he replied that it was cross-faded into it to sneak a little bit more of Smile onto the box without having to pay any more mechanicals (which is also, btw, why every track on disc 5 turns up somewhere else on the box).

I think if I've explained - twice - why the tag was there and apparently had said explanation questioned entitles me to a little mild sarcasm. 

Do I get the feeling that whenever anyone questions you on anything, you're insulted?

Nope - only when they ignore my answers or explanations. Twice. 

So if you explain something twice does that make it an indisputable fact? Since when has the board functioned in that way?

Don't get me wrong, AGD, I've benefited more than a few times from your BB-related knowledge for which I am grateful, but you have to allow for doubters when you drop some choice Smile 'fact' that flies in the face of all available evidence. Peter Reum came on the board and stated that Brian told him in the 80s that Smile was going to be in 3 movements very similar to BWPS. Beautiful though the theory was, not everyone snapped it up as historical truth. Why? Because there was strong evidence to the contrary, and Brian clearly contradicts himself. Leaf isn't infallible either - after all, wasn't he responsible for spreading the theory that Heroes Intro belonged to Fire? So perhaps he made a mistake when he told you that Veg fade belonged to Wonderful. Or perhaps not. I'm not sure but surely I have a right to question that, whether you state it two or  two-thousand times?

[Sheriff John Stone]

I'm still surprised at the underwhelming response/reaction to the OFFICIAL RELEASE of those SMiLE tracks on the 1993 boxed set. You also didn't really read/hear too much about them when Brian was re-recording them in 2003-04. With Disc 2 and 3 of the boxed set, you can compile a pretty representative SMiLE mix - by The Beach Boys.

[Andrew G. Doe]

I asked David why the tag of "Vega-tables" was pretty obviously a variation on the "Wonderful" riff, and he replied that it was cross-faded into it to sneak a little bit more of Smile onto the box without having to pay any more mechanicals (which is also, btw, why every track on disc 5 turns up somewhere else on the box).

I think if I've explained - twice - why the tag was there and apparently had said explanation questioned entitles me to a little mild sarcasm. 

Do I get the feeling that whenever anyone questions you on anything, you're insulted?

Nope - only when they ignore my answers or explanations. Twice. 

So if you explain something twice does that make it an indisputable fact? Since when has the board functioned in that way?

Don't get me wrong, AGD, I've benefited more than a few times from your BB-related knowledge for which I am grateful, but you have to allow for doubters when you drop some choiof the material of that erace Smile 'fact' that flies in the face of all available evidence. Peter Reum came on the board and stated that Brian told him in the 80s that Smile was going to be in 3 movements very similar to BWPS. Beautiful though the theory was, not everyone snapped it up as historical truth. Why? Because there was strong evidence to the contrary, and Brian clearly contradicts himself. Leaf isn't infallible either - after all, wasn't he responsible for spreading the theory that Heroes Intro belonged to Fire? So perhaps he made a mistake when he told you that Veg fade belonged to Wonderful. Or perhaps not. I'm not sure but surely I have a right to question that, whether you state it two or  two-thousand times?

If you're going to quote me, please do it accurately: I never said that David told me that the tag belonged there, because he never said that to me. Entirely the contrary, in fact. What he did say (once more) was that the tag as it appears on the 1993 box is there because it was included to get more the material of that era on the box without exceeding the budget. David co-produced the project: he made the decisions along with Mark & Andy. If he'd used a tape called "Fade to Vegetables" less than a year previously, I think he'd remember it rather than make up some tale about mechanicals. You have every right to question that, because all you have to go on is my word, just as I've questioned Chuck Negron's story of Mike reducing Brian to tears, and also, incidentally, what Brian told Peter in the early 80s regarding the 3rd movement (frankly, I think it's nonsense, as does someone else I asked who was a lot closer to the action at the time). That's how we get to rewrite the books.

[The Song Of The Grange]

Try the "Search" function at the top of the page! 

Oh yeah, the search function right in front of my nose.  I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed!

[Jonas]

Try the "Search" function at the top of the page! 

Oh yeah, the search function right in front of my nose.  I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed!

You can't entirely trust the search function on here. Unfortunately it doesn't search as well as something like Google, I wish someone would code a much better search algorithm for the SMF board. If you don't find what you want through our board's search, I recommend you use Google. Something like "smiley smile message board (+) whatever you want to search", since Chuck unleashed the Google spider/bot on here, I'm pretty sure its thoroughly archived every post on here. Personally, I think you will find better results that way.

[mrski]

On the subject of the 1993 Smile songs on the box set, what's the story with the speed problems on Do You Like Worms?

I'd be interested to hear about this again too...

[onkster]

Re the wow on "Worms":  Mark Linett told me that they had pulled the wrong master for that, somehow.  Sounds like an acetate with an eccentric center hole to me.

If that was the wrong master, does that therefore suggest they had the right master there somewhere?

And do sessions sheets indicate that lead vocals were ever recorded?  To me it seems weird there would be acetates of just the backings...

[Andrew G. Doe]

There was a 12/21/66 vocal session for "DYLW" at Columbia - whether that was for just the bvs or the lead as well, couldn't say. Certainly the lyric was written by then.

[c-man]

Re the wow on "Worms":  Mark Linett told me that they had pulled the wrong master for that, somehow.  Sounds like an acetate with an eccentric center hole to me.

If that was the wrong master, does that therefore suggest they had the right master there somewhere?

I was just reading about this in an old ESQ...Mark said that after the box set's release, they sent the corrected master to Capitol, but he wasn't sure if anything was done with it.  So if anyone has a later pressing of the set, they would be the ones to ask.

[Jay]

I wonder how the speed corrected version ended up getting bootleged?

[grillo]

I

Re the wow on "Worms":  Mark Linett told me that they had pulled the wrong master for that, somehow.  Sounds like an acetate with an eccentric center hole to me.

I don't think the box set version is from an acetate. Then again, where IS it from?  I know its been covered before, but as per the search discussion above, I can't seem to find it. BTW, loving the SMiLE discussions, even if it's all rehashed. I think there are some new ideas I hadn't heard before. And why oh why must everyone pick on ol' AGD? He is trying to help, I assume, after all.

[Dove Nested Towers]

I think it's great that, despite any imperfections, a version of DYLW was located (or created, using material that had not ever circulated) that included
(or had edited into it by persons unknown) the backing vocal section that would have accompanied the second "Sandwich Isles" lyric part of the song. It seems odd that that vocal section would have only been placed in front of the second verse and not the first, when the complete lyrics that led into both the first and second verses had presumably both been written.

Does AGD or anyone else know the story behind that? I had heard again that Linett swore that
he didn't do any editing on DYLW.

[Bicyclerider]

I wonder how the speed corrected version ended up getting bootleged?

It was a fan computer speed corrected version that was booted, not the original.

[Ian]

I'm curious about "our Prayer"- as most of you know a tape circulates of the vocal session for this song (possibly the most fascinating tape-with Brian asking whether the others can feel the effect of certain substances and Carl asking Brian to really lead the session, etc).  Tape I heard has Brian continually stopping the group-mostly due to Mike flatting...So did the session end with a releasable take? Or did they never finish it due to their altered states? I ask because it's clear in Oct 1966 the song was fully formed in Brian's head and they knew the parts-yet in 1968 it is known that they went to Capitol to add more vocals-is that because it was never finished or they just felt it could be better?  I find it odd that they could spend a whole night working on it and then not return to it the next day or next session...but maybe that is what happened....

[Chris Brown]

I'm curious about "our Prayer"- as most of you know a tape circulates of the vocal session for this song (possibly the most fascinating tape-with Brian asking whether the others can feel the effect of certain substances and Carl asking Brian to really lead the session, etc).  Tape I heard has Brian continually stopping the group-mostly due to Mike flatting...So did the session end with a releasable take? Or did they never finish it due to their altered states? I ask because it's clear in Oct 1966 the song was fully formed in Brian's head and they knew the parts-yet in 1968 it is known that they went to Capitol to add more vocals-is that because it was never finished or they just felt it could be better?  I find it odd that they could spend a whole night working on it and then not return to it the next day or next session...but maybe that is what happened....

Based on the "Goodbye Surfing, Hello God" article, the track was finished in '66.  Maybe not at that particular session, but very shortly thereafter.  It was apparently the last acetate Brian played for his dinner guests that night.

[Jonas]

I'm curious about "our Prayer"- as most of you know a tape circulates of the vocal session for this song (possibly the most fascinating tape-with Brian asking whether the others can feel the effect of certain substances and Carl asking Brian to really lead the session, etc).  Tape I heard has Brian continually stopping the group-mostly due to Mike flatting...So did the session end with a releasable take? Or did they never finish it due to their altered states? I ask because it's clear in Oct 1966 the song was fully formed in Brian's head and they knew the parts-yet in 1968 it is known that they went to Capitol to add more vocals-is that because it was never finished or they just felt it could be better?  I find it odd that they could spend a whole night working on it and then not return to it the next day or next session...but maybe that is what happened....

It's safe to say we know you're referring to acid.

[buddhahat]

I'm curious about "our Prayer"- as most of you know a tape circulates of the vocal session for this song (possibly the most fascinating tape-with Brian asking whether the others can feel the effect of certain substances and Carl asking Brian to really lead the session, etc).  Tape I heard has Brian continually stopping the group-mostly due to Mike flatting...So did the session end with a releasable take? Or did they never finish it due to their altered states? I ask because it's clear in Oct 1966 the song was fully formed in Brian's head and they knew the parts-yet in 1968 it is known that they went to Capitol to add more vocals-is that because it was never finished or they just felt it could be better?  I find it odd that they could spend a whole night working on it and then not return to it the next day or next session...but maybe that is what happened....

Based on the "Goodbye Surfing, Hello God" article, the track was finished in '66.  Maybe not at that particular session, but very shortly thereafter.  It was apparently the last acetate Brian played for his dinner guests that night.

This leads me to believe Brian considered it the final track to Smile at one point, after Surf's Up. Vosse describes a choral piece that was to follow Surf's up as the closer to the album in his 68 article. I struggle to think this could have been anything other than Our Prayer, although as others have pointed out Vosse was familiar with 20/20 at the time of the article so you'd think he'd refer to the piece by name. I wish I'd been around to ask him about this when he briefly showed up on The Smile Shop board. Is that thread archived anywhere?

[Chris Brown]

I'm curious about "our Prayer"- as most of you know a tape circulates of the vocal session for this song (possibly the most fascinating tape-with Brian asking whether the others can feel the effect of certain substances and Carl asking Brian to really lead the session, etc).  Tape I heard has Brian continually stopping the group-mostly due to Mike flatting...So did the session end with a releasable take? Or did they never finish it due to their altered states? I ask because it's clear in Oct 1966 the song was fully formed in Brian's head and they knew the parts-yet in 1968 it is known that they went to Capitol to add more vocals-is that because it was never finished or they just felt it could be better?  I find it odd that they could spend a whole night working on it and then not return to it the next day or next session...but maybe that is what happened....

Based on the "Goodbye Surfing, Hello God" article, the track was finished in '66.  Maybe not at that particular session, but very shortly thereafter.  It was apparently the last acetate Brian played for his dinner guests that night.

This leads me to believe Brian considered it the final track to Smile at one point, after Surf's Up. Vosse describes a choral piece that was to follow Surf's up as the closer to the album in his 68 article. I struggle to think this could have been anything other than Our Prayer, although as others have pointed out Vosse was familiar with 20/20 at the time of the article so you'd think he'd refer to the piece by name. I wish I'd been around to ask him about this when he briefly showed up on The Smile Shop board. Is that thread archived anywhere?

That's possible, but you're right, you would think that Vosse would have referred to Prayer by name.  Maybe it just slipped his mind.  Obviously at the session, Brian considers it to be a "little intro to the album," but God knows he changed his mind like the wind. 

Maybe Vosse was referring to the "Child" tag when he spoke of a choral piece after Surf's Up?  That would make more sense to me.

[buddhahat]

I'm curious about "our Prayer"- as most of you know a tape circulates of the vocal session for this song (possibly the most fascinating tape-with Brian asking whether the others can feel the effect of certain substances and Carl asking Brian to really lead the session, etc).  Tape I heard has Brian continually stopping the group-mostly due to Mike flatting...So did the session end with a releasable take? Or did they never finish it due to their altered states? I ask because it's clear in Oct 1966 the song was fully formed in Brian's head and they knew the parts-yet in 1968 it is known that they went to Capitol to add more vocals-is that because it was never finished or they just felt it could be better?  I find it odd that they could spend a whole night working on it and then not return to it the next day or next session...but maybe that is what happened....

Based on the "Goodbye Surfing, Hello God" article, the track was finished in '66.  Maybe not at that particular session, but very shortly thereafter.  It was apparently the last acetate Brian played for his dinner guests that night.

This leads me to believe Brian considered it the final track to Smile at one point, after Surf's Up. Vosse describes a choral piece that was to follow Surf's up as the closer to the album in his 68 article. I struggle to think this could have been anything other than Our Prayer, although as others have pointed out Vosse was familiar with 20/20 at the time of the article so you'd think he'd refer to the piece by name. I wish I'd been around to ask him about this when he briefly showed up on The Smile Shop board. Is that thread archived anywhere?

That's possible, but you're right, you would think that Vosse would have referred to Prayer by name.  Maybe it just slipped his mind.  Obviously at the session, Brian considers it to be a "little intro to the album," but God knows he changed his mind like the wind. 

Maybe Vosse was referring to the "Child" tag when he spoke of a choral piece after Surf's Up?  That would make more sense to me.

Yeah - perhaps that tag was to have wordless vocals over it. It's certainly similar to Our Prayer with the descending parts. Anybody's guess I suppose but it would be interesting to ask Vosse to clarify - At least it would be something he could definitely answer, memory permitting. I wish I'd been on the board when he was answering questions.

[Bicyclerider]

Maybe Vosse was referring to the "Child" tag when he spoke of a choral piece after Surf's Up?  That would make more sense to me.

Yeah - perhaps that tag was to have wordless vocals over it. It's certainly similar to Our Prayer with the descending parts. Anybody's guess I suppose but it would be interesting to ask Vosse to clarify - At least it would be something he could definitely answer, memory permitting. I wish I'd been on the board when he was answering questions.
[/quote]

There's a Smile era edit of the song that takes out the next to last vocal section - it could be that section was the choral piece after Surf's Up, ending the album with Prayer (or part of Prayer) and bringing Smile full circle to the beginning.

[Roger Ryan]

There's a Smile era edit of the song that takes out the next to last vocal section - it could be that section was the choral piece after Surf's Up, ending the album with Prayer (or part of Prayer) and bringing Smile full circle to the beginning.

Which could also explain why a portion of "Prayer" shows up at the end of "In Blue Hawaii" on BWPS. I wonder if Darian thought of that himself or if Brian recalled that he originally wanted a reprise of "Prayer" to come in near the end?

[Bill Tobelman]

I also thought (because it was commonly thought "Surf's Up" would conclude SMiLE) that Jules Siegel's noting that the end of "Surf's Up" was like the "Prayer" that folks would imagine that SMiLE could have ended with the prayer. Siegel goes, "On the last word Brian's voice rose and fell, like the ending of that prayer chorale he had played so many months before."

[Andrew G. Doe]

There's a Smile era edit of the song that takes out the next to last vocal section - it could be that section was the choral piece after Surf's Up, ending the album with Prayer (or part of Prayer) and bringing Smile full circle to the beginning.

Which could also explain why a portion of "Prayer" shows up at the end of "In Blue Hawaii" on BWPS. I wonder if Darian thought of that himself or if Brian recalled that he originally wanted a reprise of "Prayer" to come in near the end?

Or... it could just be a neat way of closing the cycle (circle) by returning to the beginning.