Heroes and Villains (March Reconstruction)

[Cam Mott]

Did Brian refuse to sing "sunny down" for H&V after taking the lead away from Mike? It is all confusing to us but I don't see where Brian was confused.

[c-man]

Maybe FN was conceived as a tag to a longer song with repeating verses, and maybe we're missing a chorus. Or maybe Barnyard was the chorus. Or the tag. I mean, honestly, who knows?

I genuinely believe that IWBA/FN were always meant to follow Fire as Domenic Priore argues. It follows so smoothly out from the crashing bass-drum (presumably representing a crashing timber) at the end of Fire, the 'rebuilding after the fire' of the workshop is a very logical explanation, plus I feel you need something calm (and humorous) to follow such an agressive piece of music. Of all the Smile pieces that could go together this seems the most convincing and logical to me.

I dunno...to me, "Water" makes sense as something to naturally come after "Fire" (both musically, in the case of the two recorded pieces, and philosophically).  Dom told me (or I read him say, I can't remember which) that Carol Kaye was the one that told him "I Wanna Be Around" was supposed to follow "Fire".  And we know her memory is, shall we say, less than reliable?  Also, we should consider that even IF Brian indeed intended that to be the sequence when he originally recorded "I Wanna Be Around", by the time he got around to recording "Water"/"Da Da", his scheme MAY have changed, and now that the "Water" element was actually on tape, he may have decided it was better to follow "Fire" with it.  It seems the running order (at least certain elements of it...pun intended) was subject to constant change.

[Bicyclerider]

"The 2nd Wind Chimes session produced the 3 sections heard on the GV box version recorded one section at a time."

That is not correct, the first session produced the middle section, that was not rerecorded.  Only the first section and last were rerecorded.

As to Mike's fight in front of the cameras on Dec 15th, this has been denied by people who were present (Jules  Siegel) and is not on any of the Inside Pop reel logs that list everything recorded by the cameras.

[Bubba Ho-Tep]

RE: Televised “Fight” (session going badly)

We’ve already dismissed this bit of folklore. Simply boring backing vocals for Wonderful. Another misconception spread further by Priore's new Smile book. The last word on Smile, people. The only tool future generations will ever need.  Anyone who argues his cold hard facts are internet geeks.

I too feel that what represents Barnyard and Great Shape on BWPS sound unfinished in comparison to the rest of the album. If this was Brian’s original intent, it seems pretty half-assed, which doesn’t seem like his style. I have to believe that some of those sections would have been repeated and a more traditional verse/chorus format would have been used, as that was how the majority of the album played. I mean, if you only had one verse of Cabinessence followed by one Iron Horse and the tag it would probably sound as poorly thought out as Great Shape. Still, with the materials we have heard thus far, it is hard to find any other way of structuring the songs. SO Barnyard and Great Shape sound like a collection of leftover scraps instead of working as songs.

I’m not sure about Great Shape following Fire. Anything is possible.

The only thing left to discover is the CBS footage. I truly believe that many new answers will surface there. Just from the notations alone we can see so much. We don’t even need a proper release. We just need someone who knows the questions to watch the footage and find the answers. Let’s hope someone, anyone, can someday view it and report it to the world.

I also don’t believe Mike refuse to sing anything. He say the two lines he complains about the most. He seemed perfectly happy singing about Vegetables on that early comp reel version. And he might even be singing on the fade for Sunshine (False Barnyard), although it is incredibly hard to make it out. That small fragment of a lead vocal only fuels my belief that there were more vocals cut than what we have heard.

About “Sunny Down Snuff”…since it is part of the original blueprint it must have been attempted during the sessions, I’d imagine, right? The Smiley Smile part is not of the Smile era, is it? It is designed to go straight into the chorus. If it was used before the Bicycle Rider theme became part of H&V, how would it have played? Would it have been sung over the main verse riff like the rest of it? I suppose it could have. Why is there no version of the song that contains all the lyrics? Three Score, Peace in the Valley, Sunny Down Snuff…..why not tell the whole story? Could Sunny Down Snuff work sung over top of the prelude to fade? I asked Van about the writing of the song and he said that all the verses were written that first night. The only later addition is seems was either “Great Shape” or “Cantina” depending on what stage the song was at. So Brian plays the verse riff at the piano and Van knocks out several verses of lyric:

I’ve been in the town so long/once at night
La la la,/stand or fall…(doesn’t “la la la seem like a cop-out? Was there something else there originally….something “inappropriate?”)
My children were raised/ three score and five
Been in this town so long to the city/Sunny Down Snuff

No chorus, but there doesn’t necessarily needs to be one. To jazz things up, Brian throws in nifty acappella part. He knows that there are several ideas that he want to work into the album somewhere: syncopated laughter (cantina and early Vegetables), an explosion of reverb (Great Shape or Cantina version. “exciting new recording techniques”, he claimed in an interview at the time), orchestra strings sliding downward (OMP or early attempt at Prelude to Fade). And we can see that he tries to throw these things into several songs.

 Who knows if and when Great Shape or Barnyard become part of it, but that’s the way he seems to present it to Humble Harv. Lyrically, neither of them seem suited to the song. These were probably just a couple of stray “feels”.  This was supposed to be their answer to “El Paso” and the Cantina section definitely reflects that, so it’s odd that they wouldn’t go in that direction from the start. So maybe the Humble Harv tape is a red herring. Although if we use Shape as the middle section and Barnyard as the fade, I guess it’s feasible. But if the tape explosion of Great Shape were used, then the whistling one from the Cantina version probably wouldn’t have.

I’d love to see Van’s original lyric sheet for the song. Who knows what other lyrics he might have written and not used (or at least never turned up in the vaults).

[Old Rake]

I have to believe that some of those sections would have been repeated and a more traditional verse/chorus format would have been used, as that was how the majority of the album played. I mean, if you only had one verse of Cabinessence followed by one Iron Horse and the tag it would probably sound as poorly thought out as Great Shape.

Yeah, exactly. And we actually DO HAVE a mix like that, from the December comp reel. We have similar messed-around A-B-C roughs of Child, too. Brian had a tendency to put three sections next to each other on comp reels, not necessarily meaning that it was the final structure. "Wind Chimes" I don't think was meaning to repeat (though earlier versions do continue on past the tag, so who knows?) but "Worms" and "Child" and "Cab" all are more than A-B-C.

It makes me wonder about OMP especially -- it, too, is on an acetate as A-B-C but it was Toby who suggested that a repeat might have happened THERE as well. We have no vocals on the "Old Master Painter" sections -- perhaps it *was* meant to cycle around again, with each appearance having a different part of "Old Master Painter" lyrics over it, and essentially "My Only Sunshine" as the chorus. In other words -- Old Master Painter, You Are My Sunshine, cello descent. Old Master Painter different verse, You Are My Sunshine, cello descent. Tag. THAT structure expands the song into a slightly more significant/similar length AND puts it more in line with the rest of the Smile songs in terms of structure.

Which is why I tend to think the A-B-C of "Great Shape" doesn't make sense, kinda. I really feel with a verse melody as lovely as "Great Shape" it would have been USED -- cycled around again, at least. With so many missing pieces, it really would take a play-through of the song (on the Inside Pop tape, possibly) to let us know anything about a structure.

I’m not sure about Great Shape following Fire. Anything is possible.

It all depends on whether the "Great Shape" on the session log was intentional. It surely could have been, or it could have been an accidental transcription or confusion. If Carole IS to be believed (and that reminiscence happened long long ago, when her memory was much less faulty) that session was another "Fire" session, with the folks wearing fire hats on THAT day as well, while they were hammering and sawing. The specific fire hat detail is what makes me suspect, or at least wonder, whether she didn't have a correct insight there.

I agree, it sounds better after Fire than as part of any "Great Shape" structure. But that's just me. I've done many versions where it follows the last "thump" of the fire being put out, and the key of 'IWBA' works so well as the next thing you hear. Less so, IMO, with following the tape explosion.

[Bubba Ho-Tep]

And you know….there are three verses of OMP. Who says Brian wasn’t planning on using them all? This is what is looks like with all the words:

That old master painter from the faraway hills
painted the violets and the daff-o-dills
He put the purple in the twilight haze
then did a rainbow for the rainy days

You Are My Sunshine
My only sunshine.
You make me happy
When skies are grey.
You'll never know, dear,
How much I love you.
Please don't take my sunshine away

Dreamed up the murals on the blue summer skies
painted the devil in my darlin's eyes
Captured the dreamer with a thousand thrills
The old master painter from the faraway hills

You Are My Sunshine
My only sunshine.
You make me happy
When skies are grey.
You'll never know, dear,
How much I love you.
Please don't take my sunshine away

Then came his masterpiece and when he was through
He smiled down from heaven and he gave me you
What a beautiful job on that wonderful day
That old master painter from the hills far away

You Are My Sunshine
My only sunshine.
You make me happy
When skies are grey.
You'll never know, dear,
How much I love you.
Please don't take my sunshine away

That last chorus of Sunshine may or may not be the “false barnyard” tag with the sunshine lyrics over it. This makes sense on paper, yet seems too pedestrian for a track. Surely Brian would have thrown some razzle dazzle in there. But it totally fits the M.O. of the rest of the album, like Cabinessence and CIFOTM. All that's missing is a zinger like the piano/bass part in Child. It needs something like that. It's one part away from being something special.

I am not sure how long of a track this turns out to be. I’ll have to try to piece it together. It’s difficult to cut from the chorus back to the verse because of the saxophone riff. And where would that riff and the slide occur in a version like this? Maybe just before false barnyard? Doesn’t seem to flow right. Because I think it plays better cutting sharply from “sunshine away” into the opening cello riff.  The song might slide to a finish with the strings and then have a slight pause before the False Barnyard fade comes in, very similar to the Cabin Essence Coulee Dam fade.

Now all of a sudden this song looks like a frigging masterpiece.

Of all the possibilities of a bridge I guess Barnyard is top suspect because a) it had no home and b) it relates to the tag. But I don’t think it sounds particularly well here either. But it feels like something would have popped in just before the third verse of OMP to shake things up, no? Maybe Barnyard sans lyrics works best. Just a few Bars of mooing and crazyness, like the Wonderful insert, you know?

Hell, when you look at the track like this it’s almost like another Cabin Essence. It feels right, like a real track. Can we look at the recording dates and find anything else recorded around this period that Brian may have intended to use here? Soul Made Beautiful? Just throwing it out there…

I can't wait to get home and assemble this. This feels so right.

[Old Rake]

I am not sure how long of a track this turns out to be. I’ll have to try to piece it together. It’s difficult to cut from the chorus back to the verse because of the saxophone riff. And where would that riff and the slide occur in a version like this?

I think it happens twice -- at the end of each verse/chorus repetition. The cello descent leads into the cello playing Old Master Painter again.

[Bubba Ho-Tep]

Yes…yes….and that could explain the 2 slightly different edits of the horn solo.

[Old Rake]

As a matter of fact, it could. I never even thought about that.

[Bicyclerider]

As to where "sunny down snuff" could go in an early version without the chorus - there are several good sounding possibilities.  To go from "children were raised/three score and five" to "sunny down snuff" with a complete "heroes and villains" at the end, then go into the false Barnyard fade OR even better go into prelude to fade and then the false Barnyard fade (or rerecord of the same).

[Bubba Ho-Tep]

"By the heroes and"

It's setting us up for something. At least that version is. An earlier attempt might have done something else. There are more syllables in it than the other verses, so it doesn't work right over the verse riff. I don't think the alternatives to the chorus sound as striking. It's gotta jump out and hit you over the head. Who knows? If only someone would come forward with something else. Another mix. Another alternative. Come on, Bruce! Spill it!

[Chris Brown]

Bubba I love your ideas about OMP/Sunshine!  I think that with another section or two that Brian would have presumably come up with, it could have been one hell of a track.  Makes sense that he would only put the verse and chorus on a comp reel, if he was just intending to go verse/chorus/verse/chorus/fade (maybe a bridge in there somewhere too).  All he had to do was the fade (which I don't think would have been false Barnyard, as much as I love it after the descending cellos).  The only thing about that particular sequence is that it seems too slow moving...Brian almost always had at least one relatively up tempo section within each song.  Like Child...the verses are slow, but the chorus is a faster moving chant.  I think that maybe OMP into Sunshine and then repeating both would have dragged a little.  It would have been amazing for sure, but I think to make it work Brian would have needed to record a few more sections.  I really like the idea of OMP as a full on song though!

[Bubba Ho-Tep]

 The only thing about that particular sequence is that it seems too slow moving...Brian almost always had at least one relatively up tempo section within each song.  Like Child...the verses are slow, but the chorus is a faster moving chant.  I think that maybe OMP into Sunshine and then repeating both would have dragged a little. 

Yes, it is sluggish, which leads me to believe something silly like a bit of Barnyard might have fallen in there, though the sax solo is sort of zany. Same with Wonderful (Smiley Version), he cuts in something whacky like that. It has precedent. Still, in the earlier takes of OMP there was a little more speed and even some strange, tribal beats going on, so it could have moved a little more on the verse and then cooled out for the chorus, like an inverted Cabin Essence vibe. I'm really convincing myself of this theory. It makes sense and helps out the album as a whole.

Hopefully one of our technically talented people out there will assemble what we've talked about here. 

Now if only we knew what to do with Great Shape/Friday Night!

[Old Rake]

Vosse, in the article on this very site, associates "IWBA/Friday Night" with "Old Master Painter / You Are My Sunshine" instead of either with the Elements OR with Im In Great Shape. Make of it what you will.

[Bicyclerider]

"By the heroes and"

You're assuming that an earlier sunny down snuff section would end like it does in the Smiley single version - I would contend that originally it more likely ended with the full "by the Heroes and Villains" - then it would neatly go into prelude to fade/C& W theme or into the fade itself.

[Bubba Ho-Tep]

What’s interesting about Vosse’s statement is he talks about the bassline from Brian’s sunshine rendition leading him to think of Old MacDonald's Barnyard and making it part of the song. The version of Sunshine we have does not really have much of a bass line. See, the problem here is that he cut false barnyard at the session and not the real Barnyard…unless false Barnyard really is an updated version of Barnyard, in which case we’ve got something here.

Do we have a concrete date for Barnyard? I think it was said to be from Oct. 20. OMP cut Nov. 14. I dunno, I don’t think it holds water. Perhaps Barnshine was a revamped version. Animal sounds over top of it wouldn’t be out of line. 

I don’t think Vosse was saying the saws were part of OMP, I think the mention of the animal sounds made him think of other neat sound effects and he just mentioned it chain of thought like.

Really the only thing holding back this notion of the Barnyard integrated OMP is that it doesn’t sound very good. Let’s be frank, it’s not nearly as impressive as the others.  If we assembled this thing with OMP/Sunshine/OMP/Sunshine/Barnyard/OMP/Barnshine we have a more complete song yet perhaps not a very engaging one. We can speculate that full vocal treatment would have helped, and surely more overdubs on Sunshine would have helped…I mean, what’s with the drumstick percussion? Sounds kinda cheesy, no?

Another thing, since we’re on the Vosse article, which I believe in quite a bit because it’s only 2 years after the fact….he mentions that the album would end with Surf’s Up and a sort of amen thing. Sounds like Prayer, right? Isn't there a comp reel with prayer with a piece of the end missing. The part just before the “hmmm” thing? I know I've got it somewhere. Was that a legitimate Brian Wilson edit? What if he decided to take that out and then have that and maybe “hmmm” again close the record. I mean, he’s got an intro to the album, and closing prayer is not out of line, no?

Another hypothesis – CIFOTM reprise not originally part of SU. Brian just sings “Ahhh” and then it would go “hmmm” and close things out. Although Child sure fits nice there. Just spit balling. See what sticks.

[Chris Brown]

I've always thought of Barnyard as just an offshoot of H&V that would have either turned into its own song or just ended up as a part of H&V.  In context of OMP, nothing from Barnyard or false Barnyard really makes much sense (though it sounds damn cool).  I think it is possible that false Barnyard may have been another section for Heroes, or maybe as another section to be added to what we already know as Barnyard.  Like you said Bubba, Barnyard mixed with OMP doesn't really sound good.  Even if vocals had been added in places, I just don't see it working.  The thing is, Sunshine probably wasn't conceptualized as a part of a particular song...in whatever LLVS article its in, the journalist basically said that Brian just came up with the past tense Sunshine on the spot and played it, as if it had just popped into his head.  So maybe it was never meant to go anywhere, then Brian thought of doing OMP and decided to link the two.  I think that a track consisting of OMP as the verse and Sunshine as the chorus, with a few additions, could have been a great addition to Smile, but of course nobody knows whether or not that was ever Brian's intention. 

I like the idea of the album ending with Surf's Up, and then the "hmmm" from Prayer.  The keys fit together (the "hmmm" is a B flat and the end of Surf's Up has a G minor in it) and it's a very "spiritual" way to conclude the album.  I've not heard about a comp reel with the end of Prayer chopped off but if there is then it isn't hard to believe that there was a good reason for doing it.  You might be right about Child also, even though as you said, it fits really well at the end of Surf's Up. 

Anyone else thing a cool ending for Heroes would be Sunny Down Snuff, then "by the heroes and...", concluding with Bridge to Indians?  Kinda like on BWPS except without the chorus.  I don't think that ending the Sunny Down Snuff part with "by the heroes and villiains" would have fit, unless maybe he paused before singing "villains" and then brought back the verse track right as he sang "villains".  Even that way, it would sound weird.  That verse couldn't work like the others because the phrasing wouldn't work.  I also think that leaving off "villains" and then going into Barnshine would sound cool too.   

[jazzfascist]

 Anyone else thing a cool ending for Heroes would be Sunny Down Snuff, then "by the heroes and...", concluding with Bridge to Indians? 

I've actuallly done that, I made a version of the BWPS version, where I inserted Great Shape instead of Bicycle Rider and out of necessity I had to end it that way.

Søren

[memoryman]

I think OMP doesn't work as a repeated section, and I also think that part of what's so cool about SMiLE's modular structure is that you an get away with A-B-C tracks in between more traditionally structured songs. Also once you start repeating more and more secions, you quickly pass the 40 minute single LP limit.

[Bubba Ho-Tep]

Yeah, after doing a rough edit I see that it truely blows. No salvation for OMP and Great Shape....yet...

[memoryman]

I've not heard about a comp reel with the end of Prayer chopped off but if there is then it isn't hard to believe that there was a good reason for doing it.

The comp reel version of prayer actually has the second to last section removed, not the final hum.

[Chris Brown]

I've not heard about a comp reel with the end of Prayer chopped off but if there is then it isn't hard to believe that there was a good reason for doing it.

The comp reel version of prayer actually has the second to last section removed, not the final hum.

Oh really?  Thanks for clearing that up...thats kinda strange, I figured it would have been the hum.  Either way, it must have been removed for some purpose.  Very interesting stuff like always...

[Amazing Larry]

"By the heroes and" goes well into "How I Love My Girl"

[Chris Brown]

"By the heroes and" goes well into "How I Love My Girl"

You're right, that would sound cool as well.  In fact, I think almost anything would sound better than going into the chorus (I can't stand the chorus). 

[Mahalo]

Vosse, in the article on this very site, associates "IWBA/Friday Night" with "Old Master Painter / You Are My Sunshine" instead of either with the Elements OR with Im In Great Shape. Make of it what you will.

I know I'm well over 600 days late in responding to this, but on my SMiLE! mix I have IWBA/Friday Night right after OMP/YAMS...the descending cello line melts right into IWBA; while the theme is not comprimised, as it is dealing with heartbreak....


BTW, this is one of the best threads on SSMB,.....