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Author Topic: VDP on Twitter  (Read 32437 times)
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« Reply #50 on: November 03, 2017, 05:18:16 PM »

It has Little Feat on it? f***...I guess I have to then, as I'm a big mark for Lowell George (discovered him through Robert Palmer)!  

Quote
Ugh I didn’t know he took shots at you. This fandom is friggin crazy haha.

I can totally get a dislike of Song Cycle, but Discover America is a totally different animal.

Yeah around the same time he took swipes at a couple of the members here. Might be archived.

I'll  check it out eventually. I was actually thinking about starting over with his discography fresh, but every time he takes a swipe at Brian I change my mind.

Not defending bad behavior (or him acting out/lashing out on Twitter), but as I mentioned before, something really bad must've happened behind the scenes around the time of The Smile Sessions.

Van and Brian looked genuinely cordial and on good terms in the Beautiful Dreamer doc in 2004. It really didn't feel fake to me. Plus Van wrote some great material in 2008 for TLOS (although who knows when exactly it was written?)

In any event, Van definitely seems bitter and sour, and perhaps we'd all have just a tad more empathy (doesn't excuse bad behavior, just maybe we'd understand it better) if we knew the answers to why that was; what happened between 2008 to 2011 to cause this? I'm glad we know what we know about Mike being screwed out of credits; I can understand him better (though I still think Mike regularly acts abhorrently, immaturely, and narcissistically in an unacceptable manner that his legit gripes do not remotely excuse).

Not that it's any of our business, but it's fair to assume that Van felt royally mistreated in some way during that time period. This sudden change in his behavior and lashing out doesn't come out of nowhere. I have no insider info about why this is, but I have a hunch that many of us would feel some more empathy towards the guy if we knew the facts (obviously it's not gonna fully excuse really bad behavior though).
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« Reply #51 on: November 03, 2017, 05:21:44 PM »

let's not forget ... where was he when Brian Wilson asked him if he'd write lyrics and collaborate with him in 1966?

Playing with Frank Zappa and the Byrds, and writing songs for Bobby Vee and Jackie DeShannon? That's a more hopeful position than the Beach Boys circa 1969. Are we going to forget that VDP saved their careers with the Reprise contract, and then again when he had to twist BW's arm into writing "Sail On Sailor"?

Has nobody ever considered that the failure of Smile may have impeded VDP's career? The Guardian, 1971: "Van Dyke Parks ... messed Brian up in 1967, particularly on the album Smiley Smile." Such a curious way of introducing Mssr. Parks. I wonder, for how many years was he known as "the guy who ruined Brian Wilson"? I don't think he got past that until the 1990s, when the cult legend of Smile (and Song Cycle) started bringing him calls from various indie acts. And thank God for those calls.
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« Reply #52 on: November 03, 2017, 05:48:08 PM »

let's not forget ... where was he when Brian Wilson asked him if he'd write lyrics and collaborate with him in 1966?

Playing with Frank Zappa and the Byrds, and writing songs for Bobby Vee and Jackie DeShannon? That's a more hopeful position than the Beach Boys circa 1969. Are we going to forget that VDP saved their careers with the Reprise contract, and then again when he had to twist BW's arm into writing "Sail On Sailor"?

Has nobody ever considered that the failure of Smile may have impeded VDP's career? The Guardian, 1971: "Van Dyke Parks ... messed Brian up in 1967, particularly on the album Smiley Smile." Such a curious way of introducing Mssr. Parks. I wonder, for how many years was he known as "the guy who ruined Brian Wilson"? I don't think he got past that until the 1990s, when the cult legend of Smile (and Song Cycle) started bringing him calls from various indie acts. And thank God for those calls.

Respectfully on some of those credits you mentioned, you're overstating what actually happened. And we're talking 1966 - How 1969 era Beach Boys plays into this, I would ask you to clarify that comment/comparison.

I'd gladly have a dialogue on each of the points in your post, but for now just a few that stick out.

I posted Van Dyke's own words from a 2013 interview, where he says Brian Wilson in 1966-67 was viewed in the music industry as the most powerful commercial success as a singer and songwriter. A guy riding a moped around LA living in a garage working journeyman sessions being asked to collaborate by the guy viewed as the most powerful *anything* by the music biz would be like hitting the lottery. Obscurity to having name recognition - priceless. Again in his own words Van Dyke owes his own solo deal in 1967 to his working with BW.

Frank Zappa. What did Van Dyke do with Zappa, exactly? Here's what he said in an earlier Tweet: "ZAPPA called me Pinocchio in '64. Why not? I had a nose for horn charts.(So I did 3 & split after the Shrine show)." In another quote, appearing in one of Harvey Kubernick's books on 60's LA, Van Dyke said he did three charts for Zappa, he was named Pinnochio, and the only proof he had that he worked with or for Zappa was a canceled check for his work. And he said the only corroborating witnesses were Mothers Roy Estrada and Jimmy Carl Black.

If he did indeed show up on stage with Zappa in 1965, he was potentially one of several dozen characters and random people who would be part of the happening, and it could have been before or after Zappa actually played a tune or Motorhead gave the crowd a 15 minute lecture on fixing cars.

Was he at sessions for Freak Out? I don't know if it's ever been confirmed.


The thing is, and what I wish more fans would take time to research and read about because it truly is fascinating, this whole "scene" in LA especially was more close-knit and had a lot of connections that many fans don't realize. Van Dyke in that way is among quite a few musicians and artists in their early 20's, circa 1964-66, who were either friends or acquaintances with some names who would sooner or later become very big power-brokers and decision makers in the music business, and film too. Everyone from Tom Wilson, to David Anderle, to Lenny Waronker, to Randy Newman, to Lowell George, to Lee Hazelwood, to...keep going right down the list. It's not 6 Degrees Of Separation, it was 2 or 3 at the most with a lot of these people.

But ultimately if we're looking at specific times in this history and all these intertwining sagas including what brought Van Dyke into Brian Wilson's inner circle, you have to consider some of the reality of who and what these people were doing prior to becoming known entities. And some of what was in that post (and other VDP related writings and research I've seen) is inflating the truth a bit more than the truth backs up. Everything from the Zappa connection which Van Dyke himself downplays, to the notion that Van Dyke pitched Sinatra to record Something Stupid, written by his brother Carson.

It's a fascinating journey to delve into all of this stuff, but it should be realistically told just the same.

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« Reply #53 on: November 03, 2017, 08:16:38 PM »

I think we should all keep in mind that it's virtually impossible for us  to know what makes people like Van Dyke Parks, or Brian Wilson, or Mike Love, do the things they do, say the things they say, act the way they act.  After all, most of us only know these people as public figures.  Just think how hard it is to fully understand the actions/thoughts/words of people that are actually close to each of us?  Why does my sister stay in a job she hates, why do my parents seem to love their possessions more than their children, why does my co-worker get into such destructive relationships?  So I don't have the faintest clue as to why VDP says/tweets what he says/tweets.  Maybe he's bitter.  Perhaps he's being clever.  Possibly it's both.  Or maybe it's something else. 

And, Discover America is a great album... As far as I can tell...
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« Reply #54 on: November 03, 2017, 11:43:44 PM »

Cleverly bitter, or bitterly clever?
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« Reply #55 on: November 04, 2017, 02:02:49 AM »

Maybe he's just a dick?
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« Reply #56 on: November 04, 2017, 02:50:15 AM »

A Clever Dick
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« Reply #57 on: November 04, 2017, 04:29:18 AM »

Not defending bad behavior (or him acting out/lashing out on Twitter), but as I mentioned before, something really bad must've happened behind the scenes around the time of The Smile Sessions.

Van and Brian looked genuinely cordial and on good terms in the Beautiful Dreamer doc in 2004. It really didn't feel fake to me. Plus Van wrote some great material in 2008 for TLOS (although who knows when exactly it was written?)

In any event, Van definitely seems bitter and sour, and perhaps we'd all have just a tad more empathy (doesn't excuse bad behavior, just maybe we'd understand it better) if we knew the answers to why that was; what happened between 2008 to 2011 to cause this? I'm glad we know what we know about Mike being screwed out of credits; I can understand him better (though I still think Mike regularly acts abhorrently, immaturely, and narcissistically in an unacceptable manner that his legit gripes do not remotely excuse).

Not that it's any of our business, but it's fair to assume that Van felt royally mistreated in some way during that time period. This sudden change in his behavior and lashing out doesn't come out of nowhere. I have no insider info about why this is, but I have a hunch that many of us would feel some more empathy towards the guy if we knew the facts (obviously it's not gonna fully excuse really bad behavior though).

This.
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« Reply #58 on: November 04, 2017, 10:22:22 AM »

Maybe he's just a dick?

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« Reply #59 on: November 04, 2017, 03:12:33 PM »

As far as what happened between Van Dyke and Brian. Maybe there was not one thing in particular. Van Dyke has praised and made shots at Brian for years. It could just be lots of little things that have irritated him over the years. Was it at the smile premier after party that Van Dyke and his wife weren't invited. He was pretty annoyed by that.

Brian and Van Dyke have never been that close. Like Carl once said its a hot and cold relationship.
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« Reply #60 on: November 05, 2017, 06:32:30 AM »


I think VDPs ‘Discover America’ is one of the coolest albums ever made

You're not alone in that assertion. Easily in my top 10.

I gave it a try. Sorry, I guess I'm just not a fan of VDP's solo stuff. That said, I love the work he did with Brian on OCA.   
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« Reply #61 on: November 05, 2017, 07:05:46 AM »

I like Discover America. It's the only VDP album I actually play from time to time. The Esso Trinidad Steel Band album is pretty cool too! Song Cycle has its moments but it's not really my thing.
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« Reply #62 on: November 05, 2017, 08:43:53 AM »


Van and Brian looked genuinely cordial and on good terms in the Beautiful Dreamer doc in 2004. It really didn't feel fake to me. Plus Van wrote some great material in 2008 for TLOS (although who knows when exactly it was written?)


VDP has complained in interviews and on Twitter that when work began on BWPS he wasn't consulted or asked to participate. It was only further on into the project that he received the call from Brian to provide a forgotten lyric and then write new ones. While he appears enthusiastic in the video, he's also said that he felt disrespected. One would think he'd have gotten over it, but VDP harbors some weird grudges and passive-aggressively uses Twitter to lash out. His bitching about the cellos in Love and Mercy (which he never even saw), his "Free Brian Wilson" tweet when the guest artists for NPP were announced, something about having to deal with Brian's buffoonery in 1966, etc.

Whatever his issues are, I don't think they're actually real. Maybe to him they are, but it seems much ado about nothing. If anyone benefitted from his association with SMiLE it's VDP.
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« Reply #63 on: November 05, 2017, 10:38:49 AM »


Van and Brian looked genuinely cordial and on good terms in the Beautiful Dreamer doc in 2004. It really didn't feel fake to me. Plus Van wrote some great material in 2008 for TLOS (although who knows when exactly it was written?)


VDP has complained in interviews and on Twitter that when work began on BWPS he wasn't consulted or asked to participate. It was only further on into the project that he received the call from Brian to provide a forgotten lyric and then write new ones. While he appears enthusiastic in the video, he's also said that he felt disrespected. One would think he'd have gotten over it, but VDP harbors some weird grudges and passive-aggressively uses Twitter to lash out. His bitching about the cellos in Love and Mercy (which he never even saw), his "Free Brian Wilson" tweet when the guest artists for NPP were announced, something about having to deal with Brian's buffoonery in 1966, etc.

Whatever his issues are, I don't think they're actually real. Maybe to him they are, but it seems much ado about nothing. If anyone benefitted from his association with SMiLE it's VDP.

100% agreed.

Time to be blunt...I respect Mike as a person way more than VDP.  Parks is a bitter old man that needs to get over himself in a bad way.
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« Reply #64 on: November 05, 2017, 10:44:26 AM »


I think VDPs ‘Discover America’ is one of the coolest albums ever made

You're not alone in that assertion. Easily in my top 10.

I gave it a try. Sorry, I guess I'm just not a fan of VDP's solo stuff. That said, I love the work he did with Brian on OCA.   

Agreed about OCA. The ironic thing for me is that out of everything Brian has done away from the BB, this has my favorite production and arrangements.  Shame about the ghastly lyrics.
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« Reply #65 on: November 05, 2017, 11:05:22 AM »


Van and Brian looked genuinely cordial and on good terms in the Beautiful Dreamer doc in 2004. It really didn't feel fake to me. Plus Van wrote some great material in 2008 for TLOS (although who knows when exactly it was written?)


VDP has complained in interviews and on Twitter that when work began on BWPS he wasn't consulted or asked to participate. It was only further on into the project that he received the call from Brian to provide a forgotten lyric and then write new ones. While he appears enthusiastic in the video, he's also said that he felt disrespected. One would think he'd have gotten over it, but VDP harbors some weird grudges and passive-aggressively uses Twitter to lash out. His bitching about the cellos in Love and Mercy (which he never even saw), his "Free Brian Wilson" tweet when the guest artists for NPP were announced, something about having to deal with Brian's buffoonery in 1966, etc.

Whatever his issues are, I don't think they're actually real. Maybe to him they are, but it seems much ado about nothing. If anyone benefitted from his association with SMiLE it's VDP.

100% agreed.

Time to be blunt...I respect Mike as a person way more than VDP.  Parks is a bitter old man that needs to get over himself in a bad way.

The only way I'd stretch the respect thing that far would be if Mike Love stuck Doe with the bill when they had lunch.
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« Reply #66 on: November 05, 2017, 11:21:43 AM »

And a U-haul full of unsold autobiographies/ club kokomo cutlery.....
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« Reply #67 on: November 05, 2017, 11:45:30 AM »


Van and Brian looked genuinely cordial and on good terms in the Beautiful Dreamer doc in 2004. It really didn't feel fake to me. Plus Van wrote some great material in 2008 for TLOS (although who knows when exactly it was written?)


VDP has complained in interviews and on Twitter that when work began on BWPS he wasn't consulted or asked to participate. It was only further on into the project that he received the call from Brian to provide a forgotten lyric and then write new ones. While he appears enthusiastic in the video, he's also said that he felt disrespected. One would think he'd have gotten over it, but VDP harbors some weird grudges and passive-aggressively uses Twitter to lash out. His bitching about the cellos in Love and Mercy (which he never even saw), his "Free Brian Wilson" tweet when the guest artists for NPP were announced, something about having to deal with Brian's buffoonery in 1966, etc.

Whatever his issues are, I don't think they're actually real. Maybe to him they are, but it seems much ado about nothing. If anyone benefitted from his association with SMiLE it's VDP.

100% agreed.

Time to be blunt...I respect Mike as a person way more than VDP.  Parks is a bitter old man that needs to get over himself in a bad way.

The only way I'd stretch the respect thing that far would be if Mike Love stuck Doe with the bill when they had lunch.

He probably did, for all we know!

Seriously, though...they're two of a kind, except VDP does this little passive-aggressive display instead of being an adult and saying what he really means directly. Course, maybe that's beyond him. He's gotta dress it up and be as vague as possible because it's "arty", you know?
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« Reply #68 on: November 05, 2017, 11:55:25 AM »


I think VDPs ‘Discover America’ is one of the coolest albums ever made

You're not alone in that assertion. Easily in my top 10.

I gave it a try. Sorry, I guess I'm just not a fan of VDP's solo stuff. That said, I love the work he did with Brian on OCA.   

Agreed about OCA. The ironic thing for me is that out of everything Brian has done away from the BB, this has my favorite production and arrangements.  Shame about the ghastly lyrics.

The thing I really like about OCA is how Brian actually did something that didn't attempt to sound like Beach Boys music from '65 or '66. It sounds worthy of a solo career, if that makes sense. I think it's a very cool record, even though the vocals sound pretty strained here and there. Nice cover art too!
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« Reply #69 on: November 05, 2017, 12:09:00 PM »


Van and Brian looked genuinely cordial and on good terms in the Beautiful Dreamer doc in 2004. It really didn't feel fake to me. Plus Van wrote some great material in 2008 for TLOS (although who knows when exactly it was written?)


VDP has complained in interviews and on Twitter that when work began on BWPS he wasn't consulted or asked to participate. It was only further on into the project that he received the call from Brian to provide a forgotten lyric and then write new ones. While he appears enthusiastic in the video, he's also said that he felt disrespected. One would think he'd have gotten over it, but VDP harbors some weird grudges and passive-aggressively uses Twitter to lash out. His bitching about the cellos in Love and Mercy (which he never even saw), his "Free Brian Wilson" tweet when the guest artists for NPP were announced, something about having to deal with Brian's buffoonery in 1966, etc.

Whatever his issues are, I don't think they're actually real. Maybe to him they are, but it seems much ado about nothing. If anyone benefitted from his association with SMiLE it's VDP.

100% agreed.

Time to be blunt...I respect Mike as a person way more than VDP.  Parks is a bitter old man that needs to get over himself in a bad way.

The only way I'd stretch the respect thing that far would be if Mike Love stuck Doe with the bill when they had lunch.

He probably did, for all we know!

Seriously, though...they're two of a kind, except VDP does this little passive-aggressive display instead of being an adult and saying what he really means directly. Course, maybe that's beyond him. He's gotta dress it up and be as vague as possible because it's "arty", you know?

When it comes to respecting persona; to put it simply I’d rather be on VDPs bad side than Mike’s. At least with VDPs the most you’ll have to do when confronted by him is possibly pull out a dictionary to define some words. With Mike you’ll have to lawyer up. I totally get what you mean about Park’s passive aggressiveness being annoying. But I can’t respect a guy who pisses money away by starting frivolous lawsuits that completely disparage those being sued.

And Mike has a history of passive aggressive comments about the cousin he apparently loves so much - I think that’s much worse and far more annoying than Park’s being bitter about being snubbed here and there.
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« Reply #70 on: November 05, 2017, 12:44:20 PM »


Van and Brian looked genuinely cordial and on good terms in the Beautiful Dreamer doc in 2004. It really didn't feel fake to me. Plus Van wrote some great material in 2008 for TLOS (although who knows when exactly it was written?)


VDP has complained in interviews and on Twitter that when work began on BWPS he wasn't consulted or asked to participate. It was only further on into the project that he received the call from Brian to provide a forgotten lyric and then write new ones. While he appears enthusiastic in the video, he's also said that he felt disrespected. One would think he'd have gotten over it, but VDP harbors some weird grudges and passive-aggressively uses Twitter to lash out. His bitching about the cellos in Love and Mercy (which he never even saw), his "Free Brian Wilson" tweet when the guest artists for NPP were announced, something about having to deal with Brian's buffoonery in 1966, etc.

Whatever his issues are, I don't think they're actually real. Maybe to him they are, but it seems much ado about nothing. If anyone benefitted from his association with SMiLE it's VDP.

100% agreed.

Time to be blunt...I respect Mike as a person way more than VDP.  Parks is a bitter old man that needs to get over himself in a bad way.

The only way I'd stretch the respect thing that far would be if Mike Love stuck Doe with the bill when they had lunch.

He probably did, for all we know!

Seriously, though...they're two of a kind, except VDP does this little passive-aggressive display instead of being an adult and saying what he really means directly. Course, maybe that's beyond him. He's gotta dress it up and be as vague as possible because it's "arty", you know?

When it comes to respecting persona; to put it simply I’d rather be on VDPs bad side than Mike’s. At least with VDPs the most you’ll have to do when confronted by him is possibly pull out a dictionary to define some words. With Mike you’ll have to lawyer up. I totally get what you mean about Park’s passive aggressiveness being annoying. But I can’t respect a guy who pisses money away by starting frivolous lawsuits that completely disparage those being sued.

And Mike has a history of passive aggressive comments about the cousin he apparently loves so much - I think that’s much worse and far more annoying than Park’s being bitter about being snubbed here and there.

Oh, they're both bad, don't get me wrong. At least though Mike is family and there's more of a history there to justify it (however wrong it actually is*). In the grand scheme of things, who in the hell is Van Dyke Parks? You don't see Tony Asher attacking anybody on Twitter (who does he think he is, Donald Trump? Actually, there are some parallels....) But no, thanks to his inflated sense of self-importance, he has to constantly go on the attack while taking on a persona of this sensitive artist type that's complete bullshit. He needs to let go of his ego.


Quote
At least with VDPs the most you’ll have to do when confronted by him is possibly pull out a dictionary to define some words. With Mike you’ll have to lawyer up.
LOL  I got my dictionary and thesaurus ready, in case I get attacked on Twitter by the glib $10/word pontificator (see, I can do it too)

*= note, I'm not defending Mike.
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« Reply #71 on: November 05, 2017, 01:50:20 PM »

Perhaps the disappointment and even resentment among fans is that they expected a higher standard and even more class from someone like Van Dyke Parks, whereas Mike spouts off so often in interviews it's become almost expected that he'll let slip with a few insults and swipes whenever he's interviewed.

Twitter beefs and swipes are the territory of "stars" like Nicki Minaj and B-list rappers, not musicians of the caliber of a Van Dyke Parks. What's next, a "diss track" coming from Van Dyke?  Cheesy
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« Reply #72 on: November 05, 2017, 01:56:10 PM »


Twitter beefs and swipes are the territory of "stars" like Nicki Minaj and B-list rappers, not musicians of the caliber of a Van Dyke Parks. What's next, a "diss track" coming from Van Dyke?  Cheesy

Aren't twitter beefs usually two-sided, though? I don't think anyone usually responds to Van Dyke. It's not like Brian gets on Twitter and starts returning the barbs.
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Pissing off drunks since 1978
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« Reply #73 on: November 05, 2017, 02:05:43 PM »


Twitter beefs and swipes are the territory of "stars" like Nicki Minaj and B-list rappers, not musicians of the caliber of a Van Dyke Parks. What's next, a "diss track" coming from Van Dyke?  Cheesy

Aren't twitter beefs usually two-sided, though? I don't think anyone usually responds to Van Dyke. It's not like Brian gets on Twitter and starts returning the barbs.
Brian has too much class to respond back, unlike a certain hipster douchebag.  Can you imagine it though, if Brian actually went on Twitter and just unloaded on those that have either f***ed him over or disrespected him for no reason?  Will never happen, obviously, but man if anybody has the right to unload, it's Brian. He's earned it.
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« Reply #74 on: November 05, 2017, 02:19:32 PM »

Amy B is right, and I agree with Billy - All of this stuff with Van Dyke and Mike taking public swipes at Brian and airing these grievances to the fans, it's so one-sided it makes the whole thing even more absurd. Brian could unload and have every right to do so, but he does not. And that may speak as much to why so many love and show their love to Brian Wilson whenever he performs or just overall. It's respect, and unless someone can find an example of Brian in the recent past taking any public swipes at Mike, Van Dyke, or anyone else related that would warrant those being hurled at him (and his family), I can't think of any. It's not how he is. In fact, if anything Brian has been complimentary of both men when he could have easily laid them out publicly and been right on the money.

Maybe I should reboot the challenge from a few years ago and offer up a nice bottle of red wine, maybe a port or something heavier than the previous bottle of white, to coincide with the Fall and holiday seasons upon us, to anyone who can find a recent interview or Tweet where Brian publicly took a jab at either Mike Love or Van Dyke Parks.
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