The Smiley Smile Message Board

I admit, I don't always know what Van Dyke is talking about, but what is this exchange?

Twitter user named Brad to VDP: Dude, you helped write SMiLE.
VDP: He helped me write "Smile". What a dude'll do. Brad, you goofin' me, right?

I assume he is referring to the fact Brian asked him to contribute lyrics so Brian was helping him a relative unknown rather than Van Dyke helping him - and also the fact Brian wrote the melodies and Van Dyke then wrote the lyrics syllable for syllable to fit the melody, so that "helped" him rather than the other way around.

It can also be construed as  saying that he didn't help Brian write Smile, but rather Brian helped *him* in that it was more him (VDP) than Brian.

I wouldn't hope that would be the inference, but with VDP who the hell knows?

.

I used to admire him greatly, but to see him so bitter is just incredibly sad.

That's how I read it, and I hope I read it wrong.

 I agree. Something bad must’ve gone down in the last decade behind the scenes, and I don’t feel qualified to have any opinion about it because we are completely not privy to this information. But it is indeed sad.

Comes across as little bit pretentious.  He had this to say when Skrillex asked him for help on a track:


 'Oh, thank you, Mr. Parks. We will destroy the world.' I said, 'Okay...' I Google him and there he is, on YouTube, in front of 30,000 people, pouring beer onto a laptop computer, at which point the crowd jumps into the mosh pit and has an erection.…I have two things I can do: Run away from all this in horror because I’m so superior, or dig in and serve and try to bring hope to the hopeless. That can be done behind the curtain, and that’s where I’m very comfortable working.…I treat every job as if it were the very thing that will define me. Nothing is beneath me. I think that is evident to people who ask my best."[

Dick...

It's not pretentious for him to say his musical abilities are fat above those of Shrillex. It's just honest.

I completely agree. VDPs has lived to see his talents be compared to the Beatles (albeit in marketing for his first album, but nonetheless he worked with Brian Wilson at Brian’s peak). And then he’s reduced to now collaborating with some jackass who dumps beer on expensive equipment all for the roar of a dimwitted crowd - and this is coming from someone who listened to Skrillex in clubs a few years ago. Ugh.

I can imagine, for VDPs, seeing the degradation of meaningful music culture is sad as hell, and him being openly honest about his collaboration with Skrillex is a least refreshing to hear - rather than him being passive about it.

As for the tweet above, I just took it as a joke rather than something he seriously means. And perhaps VDPs is taking Brad literally when he says “writing” as VDPs was the lyricist and wrote probably the majority of those lyrics. Or he’s being bitter. These days you just can’t really tell.

"Brad" was responding to this tweet from Van Dyke, which accompanied a video of Ry Cooder. It doesn't sound bitter:
 @thevandykeparks  12h12 hours ago
I coulda been somebody. Yet, content in being no-one at all. Just to be at keyboard, with such band mates--Word.


Wasn't there an issue around the time the Smile boxset came out? Van Dyke was conspicuously absent from that project.

The conversation didn't end there.

This Brad guy wrote: "Sorry. I don’t mean to take anything away from anyone else. I just think of your involvement with SMILE as a great moment in rock history."
VDP replied that he wishes he gets a fee every time he (Brian) performs it (Smile), but he then deleted the tweet, that's why I can't quote the exact words. He sounded quite resentful.

VDP's cranky tweets and comments strike me as similar to others who make that type of cranky, "tellin' it like it is" comments: When their target is something you share some level of disdain or disapproval of, then his comments are highly entertaining. If you're defensive of something he goes after, then he appears to be a crackpot, out of touch, bitter individual.

I've definitely had both types of reactions to what he writes. Sometimes it's pretty damn funny, and other times he comes across as bitter and marginalized.

VDP watching skrillex pour beer on a laptop... ;D

And who would waste an innocent beer like that?

saying "I'm so superior" isn't dickish... gotcha...

It's dickish.....funny, but still dickish. 

If Skrillex himself didn't pour that beer onto his DJ gear, I gladly would have volunteered for that job. And I would have double-fisted two beers to make sure all the gear crapped out. And I'm guessing all the ravers with their glow-stix and pacifiers would have kept dancing, music or not.

The "I'm so superior" bit he clearly means as a joke or sarcastic aside. The stuff about Smile, not so much.

That VDP interview where he talks about watching skrillex videos at home is one of greatest things ever!

Skrillex surprising opened a few shows for Guns N Roses last summer.   Thank God it wasn't the one I attended, which had Alice in Chains.

A little bit pretentious? 

I think when you say "nothing is beneath me" in direct reference to someone you're working with, you are clearly implying that it is in fact beneath you.  I wouldn't want to work with Skrillex either, but I wouldn't take the job and then diss him.  Classless. 

It's interesting. A portion of his tweets are devoted to talking about himself and his own career, pointing out his achievements and his impressive childhood, as if he's saying, "Well, I should have been a bigger star, having been in a child prodigy, having known Einstein, having been in a movie with Grace Kelly as a kid, having been a composer from a young age, here's an artist I like, who I can't mention without saying what I did for his album... Since few people recognize all this, I'll point it out." He also makes a big point of being overly modest: "I'm just a beta male, I'll work with anyone, nothing is beneath me, I sweat bullets when I write music." It's a weird juxtaposition. Maybe the self-promotion is his way of drumming up work.

If, say, he didn't get any royalties from the latter-day Smile issues, I could see how he would be bitter.

The guy has always had an acerbic sense of humour and a way with words. That's what got him the Smile gig in the first place.


And he has dignity and a sense of his own self worth. Probably why he walked away from the Smile gig.


VDP is VDP. A one off.  Dickish and pretensious? Try devilish and contentious. Good friends with Richard Thompson too, apparently. Says it all.

More to the story but he deleted it

As far as I could tell, it seems as though Van Dyke Parks is bitter at Brian Wilson, “genius” being the archetype used to describe Wilson, alluding to Jules Siegel’s usage of the term to describe Wilson in his infamous article about the circumstances surrounding the rise and downfall of the projected Smile album: “Goodbye Surfing, Hello God,” (1967), and perhaps stipulating that he and his wife were not paid deservedly for their roles and involvement in Brian Wilson’s live renditions of material from the Smile era. That will be as far as I will go with these assumptions, despite having not dissected the altering of the word: “volumes” to “volumns[sic].”

I love Van Dyke Parks ad think he is a genius too. He's a terrific musician and arranger, and he influenced me personally as a musician and writer. He's a uniquely American talent, and contributed a lot to the world of music, and he should be recognized as such.

But let's not forget - and Van Dyke himself has said versions of what is to follow mostly when he and Brian were actively working together or on good terms - where was he when Brian Wilson asked him if he'd write lyrics and collaborate with him in 1966? Van Dyke was living in very small quarters, if I'm not mistaken atop a garage, and his transportation was a motorbike. He was cutting some records and writing some that had not yet hit big, but were getting some industry buzz and attention, but he was not a name outside of his circle in LA that was also due to his friend David Anderle's influence in the music business. he was making a journeyman living as a working musician, as thousands of others were in LA at that time. He was doing sessions, but not on the level of guys like Hal Blaine who bought a vintage Rolls Royce and lived a great life due to his session money at that time to where he could demand double or triple scale, or even Glen Campbell who was so in demand he could schedule golf outings around the sessions he'd take, and would choose which sessions he'd play on...like Sinatra, Brian Wilson, etc.

So Van Dyke gets invited by David Crosby to go to Brian's to hear advance dubs of the single that would become Sloop John B. David Crosby, the hippest guy in LA who knew everone and every connection. Then through Terry Melcher at a party - Terry being extremely wealthy too, a producer with a strong track record of making hit records, and a guy who would sit in on Brian's sessions to watch the man work his magic often alongside his childhood buddy Bruce Johnston watching too - Brian and Van Dyke talked about collaborating because Brian thought Van Dyke was a word man, someone good with the English language who could turn a clever phrase in the way he was envisioning the next project he was going to undertake, which would become Smile.

So tell me what we're missing here when Van Dyke was going from gig to gig, living in a small rental apartment, riding around on a motorbike, then he gets asked by the man who was arguably the hottest producer of pop records in LA at that time, a man who other producers and musicians including the Beatles were listening to with keen ears and wanting to crack the code of how Brian made those records and those hits...to collaborate with him on the next project for The Beach Boys. The same band who would soon be holding the #1 single on the charts. And beyond that, Brian bought Van Dyke a brand new Volvo when they started working together.

And he ended up getting a solo record contract which it has been said by I believe Van Dyke himself was in part because of his working with Brian on a project that was the buzz of the industry.

So if there is a beef over something, between them now, that's their business. But don't forget how Van Dyke Parks was working in near obscurity in 1965 and by the end of 1966 was driving a new Volvo and collaborating with the man who had the ear of the music business at that time.

Not a bad deal for a guy in his early 20's, I'd say. For all the gratitude and humility I have seen come from Van Dyke's comments in the past, it's unfortunate to see where it is now and being aired out in dribs and drabs on a Twitter feed.

It also seems that Parks is somewhat dismissive of Wilson’s mental health issues.

f*** VDP. There. I said it. Nobody would give two shits about him or his pretentious ass if it weren't for SMiLE.

Skrillex is far from my favorite EDM artist, but I'd rather listen to him than a hipster asshole whose lyrical ideas were seemingly inspired by reading a thesaurus while under the influence of mescaline

Which brings me to something that belongs in Unpopular Opinions: Pet Sounds is better than SMiLE and Wilson/Asher had greater chemistry than Wilson/Parks.

I do prefer SMiLE but it was the case of a blind squirrel (VDP) miraculously finding a nut against all odds.

Respectfully disagree. I think VDPs ‘Discover America’ is one of the coolest albums ever made and that Moonlighting is one of the more vibrant and mesmerizing live albums I’ve ever heard.. Give me that over anything Skrillex has ever done. Yeah, VDPs seems to be off his rocker as of late. Pretentious, bitter, dickish, whatever the description may be there is certainly talent behind those emotions of his.

Edit, meant to say that I respectfully disagree with your last sentence. Totally agree he wouldn’t have gotten the catapult he got in ‘67 had it not been for his involvement with Smile...seriously, how else would you convince a record company to spend a record amount of money on your first ever album?
 

For the record. And proceed accordingly. Van Dyke in his own words. Relevant quote in bold.

Source:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/23/arts/music/smile-and-other-difficulties.html (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/23/arts/music/smile-and-other-difficulties.html)

Quote:
Q. At the time you made “Song Cycle,” were you already working at Warner Brothers as a producer?

A. Well, Warner hired me because they thought I was a “solution,” in a bifurcated way — first of all, as a musician who had enormous studio experience. When I went into the music business, in 1963, my first union job was as an arranger on “The Bare Necessities,” for Disney. I soon became adjunctive to other people’s search for fame and fortune. Also, by 1967 I had been through eight months of Beach Boys experience — or Brian Wilson, really, with one short conversation with one or two of the other Beach Boys. I left that job in the shambles that became so famous. It became a pioneering event for interactive record design.

Q. Are you referring to the fact that fans, using bootlegged outtakes, have been assembling their own reconstructions of “Smile” for the last few decades?

A. Yes, bootleggery. My opportunity at Warner Brothers came specifically from the fact that I had worked with Brian Wilson, and carried what they might have thought was a Rosetta stone to Brian’s thinking. I don’t think it’s sinister to suspect that they wanted to learn what Brian Wilson knew, because he was the most powerful commercial success as a singer and songwriter in the industry then.

Q. What was the label’s reaction when you brought them “Song Cycle?”

A. When I played the album for Joe Smith, the president of the label, there was a stunned silence. Joe looked up and said, “Song Cycle”? I said, “Yes,” and he said, “So, where are the songs?” And I knew that was the beginning of the end. Warner held the album for a year. Then I met Jac Holzman [who ran Elektra Records], and after he listened to it, he went to Warner Brothers and said, “If you folks aren’t going to release this album, I will — how much do you want for it?” So they decided to put it out, grudgingly.

I don't even know if that qualifies as an unpopular opinion, I think it's 110% true that PS is a better album.  The lyrics are better.  The album was actually finished.  And Pet Sounds doesn't have any lulls like the released Smile. 

I was more reserved than you  ;D but I 100% agree

It's clear from several relatively recent comments from VDP that the money thing is for whatever reason a sticking point and source of animosity from him.

No doubt, there are tons of less famous counterparts in bands and whatnot who are living modest if not destitute lifestyles while watching their counterparts live in luxury. It can't be easy, and every case is different. Some folks who feel disenfranchised didn't bring a lot creatively to the table and should probably be happy for whatever they got, while others did contribute a great deal but don't reap the rewards. Some reaped the rewards and blew it. It's different in every case.

So I can understand if, independently of anything to do with Brian, VDP has hit some rough financial patches. But if that's the case, for a guy who *is* so bright, he would then seem to be lashing out in a very obvious case of taking his life problems out on Brian.

VDP is probably dealing with something not totally unlike what the other BBs did over the years. They vacillated between being grateful for Brian creating the whole thing, then were spiteful at other times, then went back to fawning over Brian, then went back to "we don't need him", and so on.

Ironically, it seems like what VDP is alluding to as far as what he'd *like* concerning Brian capitalizing on "Smile" is a *bit* like what Mike tried to argue in his mid-2000s "Smile" lawsuits. It sounds like, while VDP isn't actually arguing any legalities, that he'd like for "Smile" to be a kind of jointly-owned piece of work that he and Brian both reap financial rewards from when it's aired or used in any form. It's a bit like when Mike tried to claim all of the stuff including "Smile" was done under an implied partnership, etc.

I would assume VDP still collects his songwriting royalties checks. There's not much else, right? I would imagine in being invited back for the 2004 album that he made some coin off of that.

You're not alone in that assertion. Easily in my top 10.

Discussions like this have a way of repeating in cycles, and every year or so there are tweets or posts or whatever else similar to this current one. So check this one out, from last January, with a relevant post where I thought I was repeating myself (again, haha) and I was right after checking the archives...but if you have a cup of coffee or a pint of beer, read through some 16+ pages when things were *getting bad* in terms of some blatantly false or even propaganda-like information on some of these same issues, including attempts to discredit or dismiss those eyewitnesses who were actually there for all of these events with sometimes laughable rationale. No substitute for the truth and fact, even when books are being prepared for release and filibustering shifts over from political discourse to talking all about the music...

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,23176.0.html (http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,23176.0.html)

Oddly enough,  I hadn't tried to slog through discover America,  but everything else especially Song Cycle did jack all for me, and this was BEFORE I realized what an asshole he is. ..certainly not going to go back and listen now!

As far as Skrillex goes...I hesitant to criticize anybody who works in the same genre I do  (that's tacky)and my post was not intended as such, but...uh...yeah not my favorite based on personal preference /different approach to music, but more because he's used as a catch all artist for anybody who works in the same field, and I know that annoys him as much as it does me. There's as much difference between him and Tritonal  (great guys, by the way)as there are between the Beatles and Five  Finger Death Punch but are all lumped in together.

Oh and last off topic thing...SKRILLEX IS NOT DUBSTEP. Sorry had to let off some steam.

If you ever need something to listen to one day I really recommend ‘Discover America’. So smile was meant to be a bicycle ride across America...Discover America is supposed to be a Winnebago trip across the Caribbean - and I doubt the obvious homage to Smile is an accident haha. But it’s an awesome look at Caribbean folk music done by some really talented people - heck, I don’t think Van Dyke is even on it much, but he put the whole thing together. It’s a great trip.

He may be an asshole but he’s nowhere near asshole levels that a certain someone is (don’t want to trigger any apologists) and yet I’ll still listen to ‘Getcha Back’ and love the hell out of that song as well as many others in his catalogue.

Idk, to each their own and I totally respect your opinion. But there are a few things VDPs did post Song Cycle that are truly worth looking past his prickery.

I'm sure this has been explained many times on this board, but can someone provide a simple breakdown of who gets what when music is made? There's an artist royalty (Beach Boys/Brian) and songwriter's royalty (Brian/Van Dyke). If Van Dyke already gets a songwriter's royalty for Smile, then he made money off the 2004 reissue AND the box set, right? Wouldn't he also get something when the song is used or performed anywhere?

Now...I know a lot of artists have complained that royalties are next to nothing, especially with downloads. The real money is in touring. So Van Dyke may not have made very much money from Smile. But what would be the rationale for lashing out against Brian for that? Is there anything Brian could do to cause Van Dyke to make more money?

Excellent album!

Who was the nut?

It's a figure of speech  https://www.usingenglish.com/reference/idioms/even+a+blind+squirrel+finds+a+nut+once+in+a+while.html

In this case, SMiLE itself was the nut.

I'll give it a shot one day...but I will say this...my musical opinion was based on strictly that long before he took shots at me or really started in on Brian.

Ugh I didn’t know he took shots at you. This fandom is friggin crazy haha.

I can totally get a dislike of Song Cycle, but Discover America is a totally different animal.

Aw, come on man, you're better than this.  It's a fabulous album and it has Little Feat on it.  I promise you there's no slogging involved.

I think that VDP is extensively misunderstood.

It has Little Feat on it? f***...I guess I have to then, as I'm a big mark for Lowell George (discovered him through Robert Palmer)! 


Yeah around the same time he took swipes at a couple of the members here. Might be archived.

I'll  check it out eventually. I was actually thinking about starting over with his discography fresh, but every time he takes a swipe at Brian I change my mind.

Billy ain't bout that life..... ;)

:lol

Not defending bad behavior (or him acting out/lashing out on Twitter), but as I mentioned before, something really bad must've happened behind the scenes around the time of The Smile Sessions.

Van and Brian looked genuinely cordial and on good terms in the Beautiful Dreamer doc in 2004. It really didn't feel fake to me. Plus Van wrote some great material in 2008 for TLOS (although who knows when exactly it was written?)

In any event, Van definitely seems bitter and sour, and perhaps we'd all have just a tad more empathy (doesn't excuse bad behavior, just maybe we'd understand it better) if we knew the answers to why that was; what happened between 2008 to 2011 to cause this? I'm glad we know what we know about Mike being screwed out of credits; I can understand him better (though I still think Mike regularly acts abhorrently, immaturely, and narcissistically in an unacceptable manner that his legit gripes do not remotely excuse).

Not that it's any of our business, but it's fair to assume that Van felt royally mistreated in some way during that time period. This sudden change in his behavior and lashing out doesn't come out of nowhere. I have no insider info about why this is, but I have a hunch that many of us would feel some more empathy towards the guy if we knew the facts (obviously it's not gonna fully excuse really bad behavior though).

Playing with Frank Zappa and the Byrds, and writing songs for Bobby Vee and Jackie DeShannon? That's a more hopeful position than the Beach Boys circa 1969. Are we going to forget that VDP saved their careers with the Reprise contract, and then again when he had to twist BW's arm into writing "Sail On Sailor"?

Has nobody ever considered that the failure of Smile may have impeded VDP's career? The Guardian, 1971: "Van Dyke Parks ... messed Brian up in 1967, particularly on the album Smiley Smile." Such a curious way of introducing Mssr. Parks. I wonder, for how many years was he known as "the guy who ruined Brian Wilson"? I don't think he got past that until the 1990s, when the cult legend of Smile (and Song Cycle) started bringing him calls from various indie acts. And thank God for those calls.

Respectfully on some of those credits you mentioned, you're overstating what actually happened. And we're talking 1966 - How 1969 era Beach Boys plays into this, I would ask you to clarify that comment/comparison.

I'd gladly have a dialogue on each of the points in your post, but for now just a few that stick out.

I posted Van Dyke's own words from a 2013 interview, where he says Brian Wilson in 1966-67 was viewed in the music industry as the most powerful commercial success as a singer and songwriter. A guy riding a moped around LA living in a garage working journeyman sessions being asked to collaborate by the guy viewed as the most powerful *anything* by the music biz would be like hitting the lottery. Obscurity to having name recognition - priceless. Again in his own words Van Dyke owes his own solo deal in 1967 to his working with BW.

Frank Zappa. What did Van Dyke do with Zappa, exactly? Here's what he said in an earlier Tweet: "ZAPPA called me Pinocchio in '64. Why not? I had a nose for horn charts.(So I did 3 & split after the Shrine show)." In another quote, appearing in one of Harvey Kubernick's books on 60's LA, Van Dyke said he did three charts for Zappa, he was named Pinnochio, and the only proof he had that he worked with or for Zappa was a canceled check for his work. And he said the only corroborating witnesses were Mothers Roy Estrada and Jimmy Carl Black.

If he did indeed show up on stage with Zappa in 1965, he was potentially one of several dozen characters and random people who would be part of the happening, and it could have been before or after Zappa actually played a tune or Motorhead gave the crowd a 15 minute lecture on fixing cars.

Was he at sessions for Freak Out? I don't know if it's ever been confirmed.


The thing is, and what I wish more fans would take time to research and read about because it truly is fascinating, this whole "scene" in LA especially was more close-knit and had a lot of connections that many fans don't realize. Van Dyke in that way is among quite a few musicians and artists in their early 20's, circa 1964-66, who were either friends or acquaintances with some names who would sooner or later become very big power-brokers and decision makers in the music business, and film too. Everyone from Tom Wilson, to David Anderle, to Lenny Waronker, to Randy Newman, to Lowell George, to Lee Hazelwood, to...keep going right down the list. It's not 6 Degrees Of Separation, it was 2 or 3 at the most with a lot of these people.

But ultimately if we're looking at specific times in this history and all these intertwining sagas including what brought Van Dyke into Brian Wilson's inner circle, you have to consider some of the reality of who and what these people were doing prior to becoming known entities. And some of what was in that post (and other VDP related writings and research I've seen) is inflating the truth a bit more than the truth backs up. Everything from the Zappa connection which Van Dyke himself downplays, to the notion that Van Dyke pitched Sinatra to record Something Stupid, written by his brother Carson.

It's a fascinating journey to delve into all of this stuff, but it should be realistically told just the same.

I think we should all keep in mind that it's virtually impossible for us  to know what makes people like Van Dyke Parks, or Brian Wilson, or Mike Love, do the things they do, say the things they say, act the way they act.  After all, most of us only know these people as public figures.  Just think how hard it is to fully understand the actions/thoughts/words of people that are actually close to each of us?  Why does my sister stay in a job she hates, why do my parents seem to love their possessions more than their children, why does my co-worker get into such destructive relationships?  So I don't have the faintest clue as to why VDP says/tweets what he says/tweets.  Maybe he's bitter.  Perhaps he's being clever.  Possibly it's both.  Or maybe it's something else. 

And, Discover America is a great album... As far as I can tell...

Cleverly bitter, or bitterly clever?

Maybe he's just a dick?

A Clever Dick

This.

(http://cliff.hostkansas.com/images/2012/well_there's_your_problem.jpg)

As far as what happened between Van Dyke and Brian. Maybe there was not one thing in particular. Van Dyke has praised and made shots at Brian for years. It could just be lots of little things that have irritated him over the years. Was it at the smile premier after party that Van Dyke and his wife weren't invited. He was pretty annoyed by that.

Brian and Van Dyke have never been that close. Like Carl once said its a hot and cold relationship.

I gave it a try. Sorry, I guess I'm just not a fan of VDP's solo stuff. That said, I love the work he did with Brian on OCA.   

I like Discover America. It's the only VDP album I actually play from time to time. The Esso Trinidad Steel Band album is pretty cool too! Song Cycle has its moments but it's not really my thing.

VDP has complained in interviews and on Twitter that when work began on BWPS he wasn't consulted or asked to participate. It was only further on into the project that he received the call from Brian to provide a forgotten lyric and then write new ones. While he appears enthusiastic in the video, he's also said that he felt disrespected. One would think he'd have gotten over it, but VDP harbors some weird grudges and passive-aggressively uses Twitter to lash out. His bitching about the cellos in Love and Mercy (which he never even saw), his "Free Brian Wilson" tweet when the guest artists for NPP were announced, something about having to deal with Brian's buffoonery in 1966, etc.

Whatever his issues are, I don't think they're actually real. Maybe to him they are, but it seems much ado about nothing. If anyone benefitted from his association with SMiLE it's VDP.

100% agreed.

Time to be blunt...I respect Mike as a person way more than VDP.  Parks is a bitter old man that needs to get over himself in a bad way.

Agreed about OCA. The ironic thing for me is that out of everything Brian has done away from the BB, this has my favorite production and arrangements.  Shame about the ghastly lyrics.

The only way I'd stretch the respect thing that far would be if Mike Love stuck Doe with the bill when they had lunch.

And a U-haul full of unsold autobiographies/ club kokomo cutlery.....

He probably did, for all we know!

Seriously, though...they're two of a kind, except VDP does this little passive-aggressive display instead of being an adult and saying what he really means directly. Course, maybe that's beyond him. He's gotta dress it up and be as vague as possible because it's "arty", you know?

The thing I really like about OCA is how Brian actually did something that didn't attempt to sound like Beach Boys music from '65 or '66. It sounds worthy of a solo career, if that makes sense. I think it's a very cool record, even though the vocals sound pretty strained here and there. Nice cover art too!

When it comes to respecting persona; to put it simply I’d rather be on VDPs bad side than Mike’s. At least with VDPs the most you’ll have to do when confronted by him is possibly pull out a dictionary to define some words. With Mike you’ll have to lawyer up. I totally get what you mean about Park’s passive aggressiveness being annoying. But I can’t respect a guy who pisses money away by starting frivolous lawsuits that completely disparage those being sued.

And Mike has a history of passive aggressive comments about the cousin he apparently loves so much - I think that’s much worse and far more annoying than Park’s being bitter about being snubbed here and there.

Oh, they're both bad, don't get me wrong. At least though Mike is family and there's more of a history there to justify it (however wrong it actually is*). In the grand scheme of things, who in the hell is Van Dyke Parks? You don't see Tony Asher attacking anybody on Twitter (who does he think he is, Donald Trump? Actually, there are some parallels....) But no, thanks to his inflated sense of self-importance, he has to constantly go on the attack while taking on a persona of this sensitive artist type that's complete bullshit. He needs to let go of his ego.


:lol  I got my dictionary and thesaurus ready, in case I get attacked on Twitter by the glib $10/word pontificator (see, I can do it too)

*= note, I'm not defending Mike.

Perhaps the disappointment and even resentment among fans is that they expected a higher standard and even more class from someone like Van Dyke Parks, whereas Mike spouts off so often in interviews it's become almost expected that he'll let slip with a few insults and swipes whenever he's interviewed.

Twitter beefs and swipes are the territory of "stars" like Nicki Minaj and B-list rappers, not musicians of the caliber of a Van Dyke Parks. What's next, a "diss track" coming from Van Dyke?  :-D

Aren't twitter beefs usually two-sided, though? I don't think anyone usually responds to Van Dyke. It's not like Brian gets on Twitter and starts returning the barbs.

Brian has too much class to respond back, unlike a certain hipster douchebag.  Can you imagine it though, if Brian actually went on Twitter and just unloaded on those that have either f***ed him over or disrespected him for no reason?  Will never happen, obviously, but man if anybody has the right to unload, it's Brian. He's earned it.

Amy B is right, and I agree with Billy - All of this stuff with Van Dyke and Mike taking public swipes at Brian and airing these grievances to the fans, it's so one-sided it makes the whole thing even more absurd. Brian could unload and have every right to do so, but he does not. And that may speak as much to why so many love and show their love to Brian Wilson whenever he performs or just overall. It's respect, and unless someone can find an example of Brian in the recent past taking any public swipes at Mike, Van Dyke, or anyone else related that would warrant those being hurled at him (and his family), I can't think of any. It's not how he is. In fact, if anything Brian has been complimentary of both men when he could have easily laid them out publicly and been right on the money.

Maybe I should reboot the challenge from a few years ago and offer up a nice bottle of red wine, maybe a port or something heavier than the previous bottle of white, to coincide with the Fall and holiday seasons upon us, to anyone who can find a recent interview or Tweet where Brian publicly took a jab at either Mike Love or Van Dyke Parks.

VDP's contribution to Smile is arguably some of his greatest creative work (at least, historically speaking). It must be a very personal subject for him and if he's been shafted over it (presumably, judging by the shift in his attitude towards BW post 2011) then I can understand some of the bitterness. I think suddenly calling him a 'dick' seems unnecessary, especially when we are missing an awful lot of the picture.

Wasn't based on just that...I was one of two people here who were called out by him in an interview  (Mike Eder was the other ) without provocation.  He likes to run his mouth and talk crap about people,  well I can return the favor.  That's what he does.

Did he just single you out for no reason or was he responding to criticisms you’d made? What did he say?

I hadnt said jack about him, but I was referred to as an "anti-intellectual" . If I can find the link, I'll post it. Might be archived here, cause I hit the roof when I saw it and I remember discussing it here.

Finally clicked on this, another poorly named thread (sorry, I write newspaper headlines as a side gig), and once again found myself wondering what I'm missing about VDP.

Maybe it's because a song's lyrics are the last thing I appreciate or analyze. Maybe it's because I'm pretty nonplussed by the Smile lyrics and can't will myself to like Orange Crate Art. Whatever it is, I must be missing something here, because obviously there's a reason he's been deemed legendary. I suppose I should care about his tweets and spats with other artists.  I'm trying.

VDP is a guy writing his own tweets on his own Twitter account, he doesn't have PR people telling him what to say. Same with ML, he's a minor celebrity who obviously answers only to himself. BW has a carefully orchestrated career and image. In interviews, he either clams up and says nothing at all, or he sticks to PR-friendly and uncontroversial statements. What I mean is that we have a glimpse of the real VDP or ML, warts and all. But BW? Who's to say what he's like now in his private life? What does he say when he's by himself with friends, with no reporter around? It's hard to say.

Why would he call you that?

It’s not really hard to say. On this very site, and elsewhere, people who have been around Brian Wilson casually have talked about what he is like in private. He can be a very sweet guy, a wild guy, a shy guy, etc.. I’m sure he also has his opinions about certain people that he keeps to those private moments.

And during interviews? You’re saying that’s not the real Brian acting nervous and annoyed that he’s being inteviewed usually by people who don’t really care? That’s the real Brian right there. That’s not someone being controlled to act like a nervous wreck, that’s actually how Brian feels during some of those interviews. But the real Brian is also someone who will open up and talk at length to certain reporters he’s comfortable around. Billy knows of one great interview (I forget what’s it’s from, but it’s on YouTube) when Brian seems to be unstoppable in a great conversation about music. Brian is a multi-angled type of person...whatever angle you get just depends on his mood at the time.

The difference between Brian and Mike/VDPs is that Brian has tact. It’s not that PR people are telling him “Brian, please don’t go after Mike Love in this interview” because Brian has never stooped to that level to begin with. He’s a genuine nice guy who doesn’t publicly sh*t on the hard work of others (unlike Mike). That’s the real Brian Wilson, again not someone created in a marketing dept but that’s just who he is. I’ve no doubt he has his opinions about Mike behind closed doors, but again, there’s the difference between Mike and Brian: Brian has enough tact to not share a negative opinion to the media.

Exactly - agreed. Airing out dirty laundry or taking swipes via social media and interviews with The Small Town Gazette "weekender" insert while plugging a live show isn't tactful, nor does it show class to fans reading it. What people say or need to say in private isn't the same as airing it out to thousands of people reading. That behavior should be left in the territory of Nicki Minaj, not men in their 70's.

I honestly have no idea. I might have said something that he didn't like. Either that, or a certain someone might have told him something I said via pm.

It was an interview at a Guitar Center, of all things.

In the 1980s, I remember Brian calling Van Dyke Parks “an asshole” at a birthday party. I’m fine with that.

I'm actually not surprised it was at a GC where he opened up more about music - Maybe he was more comfortable because he felt he was with other musicians, "his people". It's been said many times that Brian in the studio is not the Brian seen or heard in press interviews, which makes perfect sense. That's his place.

I say this too because I saw G.E. Smith who was musical director for Saturday Night Live from the mid-80's to the early 90's talking about when Valerie Bertinelli was the guest host, and her husband Eddie Van Halen came to the week's rehearsals at NBC with her. Eddie looked uncomfortable, so G E invited him to come to the offices they had set up for the musicians in the band and just hang out, relax, shoot the sh*t about music with the other players. As soon as Eddie did that, he was in his element, he was happy, and as G E said it was because he was with "his people", the musicians. He didn't relate to the TV or showbiz stuff as much as chilling out with the musicians. And it was such a good thing that Eddie ended up unannounced guesting on guitar with G E and the SNL band during the commercial breaks, playing guitar on an appearance that alot of fans still remember who were watching.

It could be about being in the comfort zone, talking about things like a good groove and listening to great records versus being asked "how does it feel to be on tour?" and all the usual questions.

Thanks! I just need to bookmark that interview as I reference it fairly often.

In the 90s actually. Ringos birthday. Good stuff! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngCuGxEJsAY

He really can't help himself. His latest tweet.

"No Pop Music Publicist's delusion-this is true genius..."

?

Oh, I love that cover art, and I even like most of the lyrics. Brian's vocals are awesome! The only poor track vocally is Hold Back Time. Now supposedly it is a duet with Danny Hutton, but it sounds like two Brian's to me - two Brian's slightly out of synch with each other. It's very emotional music for me, reminds me of when the album came out - by far, the happiest time in my life. My life had become like a movie - magical. Then suddenly, one day, it was back to real life. Real life is tragic.

Brian is not articulate enough to respond to any barbs and his interests likely lie elsewhere, as in what he is having for his next meal....

Time for you to mediate with Mike Love.... ::)

Seriously, your schtick is getting very old

Ironic you complain about Brian not responding to criticism when you yourself don’t respond to anyone who replies to your inane garble.

Rab! :woot :woot :woot :woot :woot :woot :woot :woot

Cause he's a troll and just doing it to parody the anti -Mike stuff. I've seen windows less transparent.

Mikesbeard to blame?

Man I don't know. All I know is that Jessie pinkman may be making a visit soon.

(https://cdn3.whatculture.com/images/2013/10/Breaking-Bad-Jesse.jpg)

I tend to create generic thread titles when I don't want to stir the pot. I wasn't sure WHAT to think about Van Dyke's tweet.
My other recent gem, "Interview with Mike," or whatever it was, was so written because I just wanted to post it without judgment. I'm not one to title a thread "Mike: Dennis Wanted to Join the Manson Family."

Thread title is just fine IMHO

Ha! Yes god help us if all thread titles were written like newspaper headlines. I agree - less is more in most cases.

The thread titles that get my goat are the speculative ones about potential archival releases that read like  press releases e.g.

Thread title - Brian Wilson Bedroom Tapes to be released imminently ...

1st post - Does anyone know if there are plans for the Bedroom Tapes to be released imminently or, failing that, ever?

 :wall :wall :wall

I never said I'd write them like headlines, although good headlines do share some qualities that would also benefit thread titles.  In essence, a good headline is one that conveys the gist of a piece in the shortest intelligible string of words. So less is definitely more... unless that less lacks context. "VDP on Twitter" tells me absolutely nothing about the conversation I'm clicking into, and as an editor, this annoys me. No offense.

I don't lose any sleep about Amy B's thread titles, and I don't particularly care if others don't find them annoying. I mentioned it, but in passing.  

My larger point was that I've never understood what the big deal is about VDP, which leads me to wonder what role his contributions really played in Smile's iconic status. I personally think that's overstated. While his lyrics aren't mind-numbingly inane like Mike's, I don't personally value them as absolutely integral to that masterpiece.

Other than the possibility of not knowing what the VDP initials mean, I'd say "VDP on Twitter" is a reasonably clear thread title. If I click on it, I would expect to see some sort of discussion regarding VDP and his presence on Twitter, which is what this thread is.

The only thread titles that I've seen as a problem here over the years (other than trollish stuff of course) are the truly non-descriptive titles like:

"Check this Out...."

"Something that you might find interesting"

"A new article"

"Some Thoughts...."

Stuff like that. But "VDP on Twitter" is pretty clear. I suppose it doesn't indicate whether it's a discussion of a specific comment on Twitter versus his general presence on Twitter, but ultimately the thread has understandably touched on both.

I never understood the big deal either. SMiLE is the exception because although the lyrics make no sense for the most part, they work well when combined with the music. ..I'd actually say they are perfect combined with the music. On their own, though, they are near gibberish but they match he talks,  so there's that!

VD is a very advanced musician.  Song Cycle and much of his catalog likely sails over the heads of many BW fans....As Bri himself stated, "I have met my match in this music man".

Get lost.... >:(

Things that I don't understand...
  - how does a jet that weights half a million pounds actually fly
  - what do VDP's lyrics mean
  - how can anyone prefer Mike Love to Brian Wilson

I'm a writer and editor too. I guess i just have a different perspective. Out of curiosity, what would you call this thread?
Anyway, it's not a big deal. You clicked on it, so it worked.  ;D

Why? Are you saying BW fans are stupid?

Enough is enough with this troll.

Indefinite suspension until I talk to GF and sees what he wants to do and if he's with me on this.

(https://cdn3.whatculture.com/images/2013/10/Breaking-Bad-Jesse.jpg)

Billy! 8)

Yeah, I figured a visit from Jesse Pinkman was in order :lol

Fear to stop kicking ass! :lol

I support Billy 100%.

I too would be interested to read what he comes up with that would improve the thread title. "VDP's recent controversial tweets" perhaps? But it still sheds little light on the specific nature of the tweets. However, any more detail and you're effectively putting the whole first post within the thread title.

Back on topic - It worries me how some of the protagonists in BB history can so quickly be demonised here.

It seems if you have anything negative to say about a cherished key player (Brian, Dennis, Carl etc.) then attitudes towards you shift very quickly.

VDP expresses some bitterness/frustration towards Brian & his team. Rather than focusing on what the causes behind this change of attitude might be, many here now seem to be rubbishing his creative output and name-calling. We saw something very similar in the Loren Daro thread. Daro criticised Marilyn and was subsequently hounded off the board thereby minimising opportunities to hear his anecdotes and opinions about a key period in BB history.

As a reaction to the events I think it's unhealthy to write those off that criticise Brian - In a bizarre twist VDP is now seemingly being consigned to the Villains bin along with Mike Love, Daro, Landy et al!

An unlikely scenario, granted, but let's imagine that as VDP grows older, with his apparent shift in attitude towards BW and a desire to 'set the record straight' he might be more open to discussing Smile as honestly as possible. 10 years ago this would have been the perfect forum for him to open up as an 'honoured guest' but no chance now (and certainly not if his recollections cast Brian in a bad light). So we foster an environment with an aggressive pro Brian (Carl, Dennis) bias that closes doors to information rather than opens them.

A Van Dyke Parks memoir would be a fascinating read, and not only for his perspective on the Smile experience. I bet he has some stories to tell.

A songwriters symposium with both of them would be great as well.

Again - no way this change in VDP's behavior came outta nowhere. That stuff never does. I seem to recall grumblings around the time of The Smile Sessions' release in 2011 that something bad had recently went down behind the scenes causing the fallout, but no details were ever public. No accident that VDP was involved in BWPS, but not in TSS. I'm guessing it has to do with royalties/money, but maybe it's more than that.

I think anyone who is pissed (and rightfully so) at VDP's undeniably childish tweets against Brian should at least acknowledge that whatever went down must have been pretty bad, at least in VDP's eyes, in order to get him to the emotionally-charged/lashing-out point he's at these days.

However, I will say that I cannot imagine anything that he feels shortchanged on is deserving of acting out in the way that he's publicly doing. I won't condone it, but we must know what happened (even if we probably never will) if we are to fully understand why things are the way they are.

I sometimes suspect that there might be a Salieri/Mozart dynamic at play. Parks is smarter than Brian, more versatile,. more technically accomplished, yet Brian is the genius.

Van Dyke's feelings and experiences are shared by others who have worked with BW. They haven't necessarily publicized them as widely as Mr. Parks, but that doesn't make those feelings and experiences less real. An insider once told me that a "black cloud" seemed to follow Brian's collaborators.

Exactly, and I also have little doubt that all of the BBs individually and collectively have left various people over the years as disgruntled (or insert some other similar term), and some of those people have been more justified in feeling that way than others.

This dynamic even exists *within* the band; I think some of the feelings VDP may have towards Brian were shared by at least some of the other BBs at various points over the years.

As is the case with the BBs, you can look at VDP's role in working with Brian either way. Is he someone who contributed a great deal who has seen far less fame and fortune than Brian as a result of "Smile?" Or is he someone who nobody outside of the most inner circles of the industry would ever have heard of had it not been for his "Smile" association? It's of course both, right?

Look at someone like Mike Love, who has reaped *far* more rewards (fame and fortune, etc.) than any of the other collaborators and even any of the other Beach Boys outside of Brian, yet even *he* comes across as disenfranchised and disgruntled.

I think there's no question that some people who have come into Brian/the BBs orbit have been worse for the wear and have some valid complaints/frustrations, etc.

Where *some* of these people make a mistake is to assume that if they've been "cut off" from working with Brian or talking to him, or if for some reason Brian present-day doesn't meet up to their arbitrary standards or doesn't seem like he "used to be in the olden days", it *must* be because of some external factor other than Brian. Look back that "A&E Biography* back around 2000 or so. Who was it, I think it was Ginger Blake who seem to think some truly nefarious is the cause of why Brian "isn't the same", as opposed to the obvious (drugs, mental illness, Landy, simple aging, etc.). Similarly, Mike Love doesn't want to admit *Brian* doesn't want to work with him or go to his birthday parties or whatever, so he blames others.

If anything, I think VDP has at least *sometimes* directly blamed Brian for whatever issues he has with Brian instead of *always* blaming someone else around Brian.

I'm guessing VDP doesn't have all that much money in the bank (again, unlike the very wealthy Mike), which has to suck for someone associated so deeply with such an esteemed project (one that many scholars say rivals Sgt Pepper as the most groundbreaking work of the 1960s)... and VDP perhaps believes that the Legend of Brian Wilson is due in no small part to SMiLE, in which case I'd say he's not all that offbase.

Of course that album is just a drop in the bucket of all of Brian's amazing contributions to music, but SMiLE is what got MANY people hooked and fascinated with Brian in particular, and helped mythologize him greatly. If Van is having money troubles and feels recently (as of 2011?) cheated or disrespected in some way, I can certainly understand resentment.

It's odd how Twitter in the 2010s has become this faucet for disgruntled men born in the 1940s with (presumably) widely differing political/overall views who repeatedly run their mouths, both acting like children rather than adults. It's really a bizarre, yet perhaps understandable phenomenon, since it's such an easy/low effort way to vent to the masses and be a smart alec if one wishes to be one.

There are far worse stories than VDP's. Do we all remember the Bob Burchman story?

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,14995.msg344233.html#msg344233

I surmise something similar happened when Ed Carter had "Surfer Suzie" ready for the KTSA album. I'm not suggesting these songs, these one-shot compositions, match up to VDP's excellent work on "Smile", but as VDP himself seems to hone in quite often on the financial/business side of things in his complaints, it appears he could have ended up in a far worse position than he ended up with.

There are certainly some folks who come across uniformly well in actual interviews, who inexplicably come across quite poorly on Twitter.

VDP can recount stories quite entertainingly and be quite funny. His "Summer in Paradise" story about sharing the airplane with Mike and getting stiffed, etc. is still a favorite. Imagine if, instead of being a great raconteur in telling that story many years ago, he instead posted a one line snark about it on Twitter. 

I dunno, sometimes when these guys who did great work with famous/rich people years ago find themselves in financial straits, a call to their former associate might help. Not always, but sometimes. Even the *notoriously* stingy Paul McCartney reportedly had his people "go back through the books" and "found" some money to send drummer Denny Seiwell. I would imagine that had partly to do with Seiwell generally speaking fondly of McCartney over the years.

Yep, I remember reading that before. That is a gnarly story.

Didn't Brian originally agree to go 50/50 with Van on everything way back when they first started collaborating in '66? I might be misremembering, but I seem to recall Brian was particularly generous and tried to be very fair with everything in terms of his and Van's collabs. This might not have been a formal agreement though. So yeah, if Van eventually 45 years later got far less than what he had expected from their original handshake (?) deal, I would not fault Van for being pissed. Only for how he goes about expressing it.

Thanks for the refresher!

just an aside...


If true, Mike must have loved that  ;D

I'm sure it must've pissed Mike off royally, but again I don't think these discrepancies are necessarily simply random occurrences. Maybe I'm wrong, but I've hypothesized that Brian may have been resentful of Mike's ongoing pushiness, and perhaps as a result wasn't especially motivated to be as generous with Mike as he was with Van; Van, being someone who Brian obviously really wanted to work with, and someone who Brian correctly predicted would be a person who would be important to his career and evolving image/creativity, plus someone who was short on coin, appeared to be the fortunate recipient of Brian's generosity at the time.

This is also, of course, not unique to Brian. I'm sure Denny Laine had some choice words for a certain ex-Beatle at times.

There are quite a few musicians who've played with Ozzy Osbourne over the years who said they weren't given proper songwriting credit on some of his biggest hits.  When Bob Daisley and Lee Kerslake tried to sue to get somewriting credits on the massively successful Blizzard of Ozz and Diary of a Madman albums, Sharon Osbourne responded by reissuing those albums with their bass and drum tracks replaced. 

And surely one of the reasons he's been pretty much frozen out of McCartney's life since 1981/82. Going to the tabloids with unflattering stories in the 80s probably sealed the deal.

And even something like Laine's position with McCartney is open to interpretation. How much did he add? How much was McCartney dragging him along? Was keeping him on for awhile after Wings was disbanded a case of doing him a favor? Or was his "Office Space-esque" firing/phasing out during "Tug of War" kind of a mean thing to do? Open to interpretation.

Are years of service as important as artistic input? VDP's work on "Smile" is probably more substantial than any one thing Denny Laine did with Wings, but Laine also spent ten years with McCartney and was then cast aside, while VDP's time with Brian was much more short-term.

One has to guess VDP knew, even if "Smile" was going to be completed, that it might be a "one and done" situation, as he had to know that Tony Asher was his predecessor.

I can't find the quote now, but I remember a interview where Van Dyke expressed dissapointment over Brian's return to the Beach Boys for the 50th anniversary. I follow him on Twitter and he replied to me a few times, even RTed me. Yet I find some of his comments about Brian puzzling. I''ve been thinking about asking him directly about this issue. Which, of course, does not guarantee a non-oblique answer...

BTW, I think that he's a genius too (VDP, not Murry Wilson), and even without Smile he'd still be a cult artist. Of course, you have to wonder if he would have had the chance to land a record contract without the Smile prestige.

Not so sure that's the case; had SMiLE come out, it could have (subject to speculation/interpretation, of course) drastically changed the course of things with this band. I think it was far more of a leap into uncharted territory than any other album the band had released.

Unlike, say, Pet Sounds, which wasn't quite a huge success/game changer for the band as much as SMiLE could potentially have been. Had SMiLE been released, and critics finally started talking about how The Beach Boys' lyrics/content had matured and caught up with the maturity of the backing tracks, this could have further marginalized Mike, and emboldened Brian to continue working on more songs with Van, post-SMiLE. But only with a seismic shift in band power dynamics, which I contend could possibly have been possible had the album been finished.

Or not. Obviously Van witnessed some immense family toxicity around Brian, and wanted out of that situation. But I feel that a completed and positively-received SMiLE could have led to the band being taken far more seriously by the cool kids/reviewers, and Brian's choice of his next collaborator(s) would quite possibly have been affected by this. I think that more Van collabs on the next project(s) could have happened, but only if the album sold, and only if Brian using collaborators other than Mike Love was made a big, positive deal of, by influential publications.

I'm surprised Mike didn't bootleg audio record Brian's promise that Mike would get to be the main collaborator on the next album, and/or get it in writing, notarized even. I guess he knew his guilt trips could eventually do the trick without these other methods.

Your question in bold answered by Van Dyke himself in bold:

For what it's worth, I thought VDP was overrated long before he criticized Brian.

I'd wager that VDP is like many artists; he's capable of some good stuff and some dreck. "The Waltz", or "Walk With You" are pretty "meh" (at best), yet I think the *songs* on "Orange Crate Art" are almost uniformly quite good. The lyrics I have mixed feelings about. But even if that genre/style isn't one's precise cup of tea, I can't deny that especially in subsequent years that not only Brian's great vocal work but also VDP's *songs* from OCA have grown on me.

It's definitely impossible to know what could have happened with future work with VDP had "Smile" been released. I think the seeming semi-conventional wisdom that "Smile" would have been successful had it been released may be incorrect. I don't think it would have bettered "Pet Sounds" on the charts, and I don't think even among snooty, progressive rock critics of the time it would have been framed as being as good or better than Pepper. So I'm not sure how much even Brian would have motivated to continue on with VDP.

I love "Smile" of course, but even *I*, in some alternate universe where "Smile" was released, can't fathom wanting *all* of the BBs subsequent albums for the next few years to be filled to the brim with VDP lyrics.

But I think the thing with working exclusively with an outside writer wouldn't have worked with the band long-term. Mike was clearly not super happy about these outside collaborators (and has, to his credit, said so to some degree in certain terms in interviews years later). While Howie Edelson was able to ask Mike directly while working "Sunshine Tomorrow" if the "Wild Honey" songwriting situation (meaning a lot of Mike/Brian songs) was some sort of quid-pro-quo in exchange for Mike getting shafted in the past (Mike's answer was emphatically no), the fact that Brian got back with Mike couldn't have done anything but at least help in some small way at least *that* particular point of conflict within the band.

But I also think the band, both in practice in terms of what they did, and what they *should have* or *could have* done had they had even stronger commercial instincts for success, was headed down the better path in terms of not having an "outside" guy write all of their lyrics.

Part of the reason, and I'm cribbing no doubt from some old discussions here with Howie regarding Pepper/Smile, that stuff like Lennon's lyrics were hitting that pop culture critical mass was because they were *his* words. The Beatles' lyrics were *theirs.*

Apologies for the digression. In short, at the very least VDP had to know one strong *possibility* in working on "Smile" was that, success or no success, he might not be working on their *next* album.

Yes, I'm familiar with that interview. Of course VDP got the Song Cycle contract because of Smile. But I was wondering if, in a Smile-less scenario, he would have been able to get a chance at an album, sooner or later. Lots of people inside the LA/San Francisco scene landed record contracts, perhaps VDP would have been signed by another label in 69, who knows? Anyway, I think VDP payed his dues with Brian through the years: his role in Reprise, then SOS, OCA...

I wonder if VDP's attitude towards Brian these days goes back to OCA? I recall an interview where VDP talked about touring with BW in support of the album. Is Van Dyke bitter because that didn't happen?
Denny Laine made the mistake of talking to a writer back in the 80's sort of "off the record", and then those stories ended up in the tabloids. Denny never has an unkind word for McCartney these days, but it seems it is too little, too late. Macca seems to be in touch with other ex-Wings like Denny Seiwell, but Laine is like...well, it's like he never existed.

Oddly, Tony Asher seems to one of those who remain positive about his experience working with Brian and the Beach Boys, unless I'm missing something. He worked on a one-off project that turned out to be enormously revered, and yet aside from major BBs fans, I'll bet a lot of people who sing along to God Only Knows have no idea who wrote those lyrics. And I assume (big assumption) that he had the same deal with Brian with regards to royalties as VDP had, given that one project came after the other. Yet, aside from expressing mild annoyance that his GV lyrics were replaced, and that Mike eventually got partial credit for WIBN (and swearing Mike had nothing to do with it), Asher seems to view his experience with fondness. I wonder if that's because he had a regular job for years (instead of being a freelance musician trying to make ends meet). Or it could just that he and VDP have different personalities, and he's less sensitive.

By the way, I thought VPD marveled that Brian wanted to go 50/50 on songwriting credits. Wouldn't that mean that VDP collects half the songwriting royalties for every recording of a song or songs from Smile? Or might the terms have been changed by the time he signed the agreement?

Me too.

He might have taken a swipe at me because I had admitted here I wasn't crazy about Song Cycle.  Hell it was my opinion.

He seemed fine with Brian in 2004, when BWPS came out, and he worked on TLOS too. I share others' suspicions that his current gripe is related to the Smile Sessions. He didn't write any of the liner notes. Perhaps he wasn't asked?

It seems Laine and McCartney aren't 100% estranged. There's a pic of them together (presumably they just ran into each other rather than going together) backstage around 2007 at a UB40 concert. Laine also mentioned shooting McCartney some emails about doing a Cirque sort of thing for Wings music. But I think he mostly got the blow-off.

Similar to Seiwell, McCartney is on relatively friendly terms with people like Laurence Juber who have remained largely positive about McCartney post-Wings. (I think Juber was heard to criticize, and right so, the "Wingspan" documentary and called it "Paul McCartneyspan" or something like that).

As for VDP, he remained on good terms with Brian through the 2000 Pet Sounds "Symphonic Suite" and of course the 2003/2004 "Smile" project. Not sure what happened after that. I don't think anything to do with OCA is a major factor in VDP being disgruntled.

Somewhat like Mike, VDP's gripes sometimes seem to be a case of (seemingly) arbitrarily getting angry again about something that happened (or something to do with something that happened) many years ago.

I think even Asher had a few ups and downs regarding his feelings about Brian. Isn't Asher's (presumably more than just apocryphal) quote about Brian something like calling Brian "A genius musician but an amateur human being."

Nor do many of us care who wrote them. As I said before in this thread, IF I notice lyrics, it's the last thing I notice and the last thing I value in a song.  Perhaps that's because I've tried and failed several times to compose and arrange music, and therefore respect that craft-- arguably more than the craft (writing) that pays my bills. To come up with a melody, a harmony, the chords, instrumentation... then sing it all so beautifully? That's work. THAT's the genius.

Lyrics are like barbecue sauce on a good brisket. If the brisket's done right, the sauce is but an afterthought-- a nice little bonus. Nice but not necessarily needed. I think my 4 year old could write serviceable lyrics for a BW hit.

Now I want brisket.  Dammit lol

I think there's a saying that goes something like "You're allowed to have an opinion, as long as it's mine".

. 

The same with Pete Best... it's unfortunate because I would have loved to have seen Pete Best on the Beatles anthology series speaking with Paul, George and Ringo about the early years..oh well...

As good as the Anthology was, there were a lot of missed opportunities. They could have had interviews with Pete Best, Andy White, Stu Sutcliffe's family, other members of The Quarrymen, etc.

The explicit decision with Anthology was to tell the Beatles story from the 4 Beatles point of view, no talking heads, with the only two exceptions George Martin and Neil as they were with them all the way through their recording career and both had a claim to being the "5th" Beatle.  If Mal had been alive I wonder if he would have been included as well.

Theres a decent doc called Best of the Beatles about Pete's point of view.  I think it was released in 2004.

VDP was already signed to MGM in 1965, where he recorded two or three singles. The thing about the Warners deal is that he got a $75,000 budget to record whatever he wanted, which wouldn't have happened without Smile.

Not my cup of tea, but Walk Hard: The Dewey Cox Story will be shown on the AXS network tonight at 8:00 pm (Central Time)
VDP had some involvement in this movie.

Terrific movie. VDP wrote a Smile pastiche: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bF3HPqfW5ZU

Great movie, and THAT is something I have to give Parks credit for....great pastiche

I love that movie..very underrated...

Agreed. If the idea of Anthology was "the story of the Beatles, told by the Beatles", then Pete should have been included. And leaving Denny out of Wingspan - the only person not named McCartney to be in the band for the entire 10 years - left a huge hole in the story.

I liked it but thought some of the jokes could have been better. But the Beatles scene, with the terrible accents, is worth seeing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6frgnqTo1eM

Yesterday Van Dyke put this on his Twitter feed:

“On Aug. 9, '69, just after 3:00 p.m, I rapped on the door at 10050 Cielo Dr., to visit Terry Melcher at home. He'd moved. On that front lawn I'd 1st met Brian. Sharon met me, clued me in. Asked if I wanted to come join her & her guests. Decent! I declined.”

Y’know, if every person who claimed they were at 10050 Cielo the day of the murders were put in Dodger Stadium, you’d probably need to put the overflow in The Hollywood Bowl. I believe my Facebook friend the actress Joanna Pettet when she says she lunched with Sharon that day because a) she was well known as one of Sharon’s closest friends and b) the actress Barbara Leigh was there too. I have to put this one with VDP’s statement that Sinatra decided to record his brother Carson’s song Somethin’ Stupid after VDP sang it to him acapella while he was getting a massage - he never said anything about that until after Ol’ Blue Eyes was gone.

He's so full of sh*t that he pisses out 2000 Flushes™