Iain Lee's Opinion Of This Forum: "I'd kill everybody on that board. Everybody."

[Debbie KL]

I've read pretty much every Beach Boys related interview since 2012 that I can get my minds on. 

Sure, I don't like a lot of what Mike has to say.  And he does tend to repeat himself.   To say it's an anti-Brian campaign seems a little silly to me. 

And we're hitting some common ground now, HJ.  When you said some of the people who rush to the defense of Brian can be "over the top."  That's true.  And the same Brian fans can be a little over the top on their criticisms of Mike, or anyone in his camp, to the point of trying to diminish his contributions, which is the same time of revisionist history that Mike sometimes spews in interviews. 

I have to say that at the point Mike tried to empathize with the point of view of Evan Landy last year, it very much reeked of an "enemy of my enemy is my friend" tact. Also, his David Beard interview/monologue ("hopefully there's no autotune") read very much as part of a campaign. I guess we can parse the definition of a "campaign", but basically what I mean is a continued effort to downplay/negate something rather than it just being random "stream of consciousness" ramblings.

Maybe Mike doesn't see it as "anti-Brian", but more "anti-the people around Brian", but it's the same thing, and the "people around Brian" stuff also is insulting to Brian.

As for having some context about past posts/archives relating to those who left this board for the other, here's one post from someone who used to post here and now posts on that other board:

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,23872.msg577773.html#msg577773

Does that read like someone escaping a bad board, or someone being a part of what is bad about a board?

I remember that well.  But I also believe the poster was pushed to the point where he thought it was necessary to hurl those insults.  A little tact would've been nice, though.  

Nice spin, KDS. Says all we need to know. Maybe...just maybe...not lying and not creating fake aliases and using IP maskers to hide behind an alias and evade a ban would have been the "tactful" way to act. After that, all else is bunk no matter how necessary hurling insults you think would be after the initial lie. But, that's past history. You know where to go to "like" as many sh*t-stirring posts as you can like in one sitting.

Unbelievable, huh? Where does this apologist draw the line?

Debbie, is this you being "helpful" again?  By insulting me?  I'm a Mike apologist now? 

No, I'm calling you a Mike's Beard/China Pig apologist, appropriate to your post.  How did I provoke that little creep into talking about Brian "dumping my saggy ass" to the point that you defended him? 

Please tell me how you didn't "insult" me in that?

Debbie.  Firstly, I don't agree with what he said, and I do think it was disrespectful.  I apologize if you took what I said about him being pushed to say that as an insult to you, as I didn't mean it that way.  

But, as I said before, your efforts to "help" fans understand Brian Wilson are often not very tactful, and can come across as insulting.  Like when one poster, observed that he'd seen Brian in concert three times, and each time, Brian was "worst than the last time."  You came back saying that was utter BS and that person didn't "get it."  Can you see how that can be off putting?  

How else was I supposed to take your defense of that poster?  He "hurled insults" because he was "pushed", even though he was posting after being banned under an essentially "illegal" screen name?  So I wasn't delicate enough with certain posters, and that's your equivalent?  You are clearly making the point about why you're here, and it certainly isn't about being "fair and balanced".

If you look at my post, I said that I thought that post from the ChinaPig was disrespectful.

I've already apologized, and I'm making an attempt to illustrate why some people have a problem with this forum.  And so far, you and Guitarfool are doing a wonderful job proving my point.   

Yes, you used the word "disrespectful," but you also said that he was "pushed" to "hurl insults."  You very clearly said that, too - right? I still am trying to understand that comment.  People who hurl insults, quite frankly, I'm happy to have on that "other forum."  I don't think most of us here care to have people posting who have bullied, harassed and made "joking" death threats against people.  Nor those who have lied, and/or made racist, misogynist comments.  If you want that kind of board, I have a pretty good idea where you can find it. 

So the point GF and I are making on your behalf is?  That we don't agree with you and say so?  Help me out here.

[KDS]

I've read pretty much every Beach Boys related interview since 2012 that I can get my minds on. 

Sure, I don't like a lot of what Mike has to say.  And he does tend to repeat himself.   To say it's an anti-Brian campaign seems a little silly to me. 

And we're hitting some common ground now, HJ.  When you said some of the people who rush to the defense of Brian can be "over the top."  That's true.  And the same Brian fans can be a little over the top on their criticisms of Mike, or anyone in his camp, to the point of trying to diminish his contributions, which is the same time of revisionist history that Mike sometimes spews in interviews. 

I have to say that at the point Mike tried to empathize with the point of view of Evan Landy last year, it very much reeked of an "enemy of my enemy is my friend" tact. Also, his David Beard interview/monologue ("hopefully there's no autotune") read very much as part of a campaign. I guess we can parse the definition of a "campaign", but basically what I mean is a continued effort to downplay/negate something rather than it just being random "stream of consciousness" ramblings.

Maybe Mike doesn't see it as "anti-Brian", but more "anti-the people around Brian", but it's the same thing, and the "people around Brian" stuff also is insulting to Brian.

As for having some context about past posts/archives relating to those who left this board for the other, here's one post from someone who used to post here and now posts on that other board:

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,23872.msg577773.html#msg577773

Does that read like someone escaping a bad board, or someone being a part of what is bad about a board?

I remember that well.  But I also believe the poster was pushed to the point where he thought it was necessary to hurl those insults.  A little tact would've been nice, though.  

Nice spin, KDS. Says all we need to know. Maybe...just maybe...not lying and not creating fake aliases and using IP maskers to hide behind an alias and evade a ban would have been the "tactful" way to act. After that, all else is bunk no matter how necessary hurling insults you think would be after the initial lie. But, that's past history. You know where to go to "like" as many sh*t-stirring posts as you can like in one sitting.

Unbelievable, huh? Where does this apologist draw the line?

Debbie, is this you being "helpful" again?  By insulting me?  I'm a Mike apologist now? 

No, I'm calling you a Mike's Beard/China Pig apologist, appropriate to your post.  How did I provoke that little creep into talking about Brian "dumping my saggy ass" to the point that you defended him? 

Please tell me how you didn't "insult" me in that?

Debbie.  Firstly, I don't agree with what he said, and I do think it was disrespectful.  I apologize if you took what I said about him being pushed to say that as an insult to you, as I didn't mean it that way.  

But, as I said before, your efforts to "help" fans understand Brian Wilson are often not very tactful, and can come across as insulting.  Like when one poster, observed that he'd seen Brian in concert three times, and each time, Brian was "worst than the last time."  You came back saying that was utter BS and that person didn't "get it."  Can you see how that can be off putting?  

How else was I supposed to take your defense of that poster?  He "hurled insults" because he was "pushed", even though he was posting after being banned under an essentially "illegal" screen name?  So I wasn't delicate enough with certain posters, and that's your equivalent?  You are clearly making the point about why you're here, and it certainly isn't about being "fair and balanced".

If you look at my post, I said that I thought that post from the ChinaPig was disrespectful.

I've already apologized, and I'm making an attempt to illustrate why some people have a problem with this forum.  And so far, you and Guitarfool are doing a wonderful job proving my point.   

Yes, you used the word "disrespectful," but you also said that he was "pushed" to "hurl insults."  You very clearly said that, too - right? I still am trying to understand that comment.  People who hurl insults, quite frankly, I'm happy to have on that "other forum."  I don't think most of us here care to have people posting who have bullied, harassed and made "joking" death threats against people.  Nor those who have lied, and/or made racist, misogynist comments.  If you want that kind of board, I have a pretty good idea where you can find it. 

So the point GF and I are making on your behalf is?  That we don't agree with you and say so?  Help me out here.

The point you and GF are making for me is that you refuse to acknowledge that there's a problem on this board.  And the attitudes of both of you are a big part of that problem.  You have both been disrespectful at various times towards me, and others on the board, whose opinions don't always jibe with your opinions. 

I've seen people who say that the constant complaining about Mike is tiresome called a fool, and a mod agree with it.  I've been posters (and this term is overused, but apt here) bullied for saying that they didn't care for Brian's last album.  I've seen posters' intelligence insulted because they enjoyed a Mike and Bruce concert. 

And when I tried to bring up some of these issues, I get insulted myself, or my point gets turned around. 

That's fine. 

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Kds...they respond like that because they've been driven to it and provoked in to it. And as far as being bullied be a use they didn't like Brian's last album, again, speaking only for myself...there a certain group of people whose sole purpose is to tear down Brian in order to boost Mike. Granted that percentage is small, but those are vocal enough that others who gave valid criticisms got lumped in with people like Autotune and Sheriff John Stone, fairly or not.

[KDS]

Kds...they respond like that because they've been driven to it and provoked in to it. And as far as being bullied be a use they didn't like Brian's last album, again, speaking only for myself...there a certain group of people whose sole purpose is to tear down Brian in order to boost Mike. Granted that percentage is small, but those are vocal enough that others who gave valid criticisms got lumped in with people like Autotune and Sheriff John Stone, fairly or not.

So to tear people down for criticizing NPP is OK because they might be one of the very few who supposedly have an axe to grind against Brian? 

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Kds...they respond like that because they've been driven to it and provoked in to it. And as far as being bullied be a use they didn't like Brian's last album, again, speaking only for myself...there a certain group of people whose sole purpose is to tear down Brian in order to boost Mike. Granted that percentage is small, but those are vocal enough that others who gave valid criticisms got lumped in with people like Autotune and Sheriff John Stone, fairly or not.

So to tear people down for criticizing NPP is OK because they might be one of the very few who supposedly have an axe to grind against Brian? 

I literally had just posted 'fairly or not'. Did you not see it? (Asking, not tearing you up)

[KDS]

Kds...they respond like that because they've been driven to it and provoked in to it. And as far as being bullied be a use they didn't like Brian's last album, again, speaking only for myself...there a certain group of people whose sole purpose is to tear down Brian in order to boost Mike. Granted that percentage is small, but those are vocal enough that others who gave valid criticisms got lumped in with people like Autotune and Sheriff John Stone, fairly or not.

So to tear people down for criticizing NPP is OK because they might be one of the very few who supposedly have an axe to grind against Brian? 

I literally had just posted 'fairly or not'. Did you not see it? (Asking, not tearing you up)

I did.   But it seemed like you were OK with the criticism, be it fair or unfair. 

[Debbie KL]

I've read pretty much every Beach Boys related interview since 2012 that I can get my minds on. 

Sure, I don't like a lot of what Mike has to say.  And he does tend to repeat himself.   To say it's an anti-Brian campaign seems a little silly to me. 

And we're hitting some common ground now, HJ.  When you said some of the people who rush to the defense of Brian can be "over the top."  That's true.  And the same Brian fans can be a little over the top on their criticisms of Mike, or anyone in his camp, to the point of trying to diminish his contributions, which is the same time of revisionist history that Mike sometimes spews in interviews. 

I have to say that at the point Mike tried to empathize with the point of view of Evan Landy last year, it very much reeked of an "enemy of my enemy is my friend" tact. Also, his David Beard interview/monologue ("hopefully there's no autotune") read very much as part of a campaign. I guess we can parse the definition of a "campaign", but basically what I mean is a continued effort to downplay/negate something rather than it just being random "stream of consciousness" ramblings.

Maybe Mike doesn't see it as "anti-Brian", but more "anti-the people around Brian", but it's the same thing, and the "people around Brian" stuff also is insulting to Brian.

As for having some context about past posts/archives relating to those who left this board for the other, here's one post from someone who used to post here and now posts on that other board:

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,23872.msg577773.html#msg577773

Does that read like someone escaping a bad board, or someone being a part of what is bad about a board?

I remember that well.  But I also believe the poster was pushed to the point where he thought it was necessary to hurl those insults.  A little tact would've been nice, though.  

Nice spin, KDS. Says all we need to know. Maybe...just maybe...not lying and not creating fake aliases and using IP maskers to hide behind an alias and evade a ban would have been the "tactful" way to act. After that, all else is bunk no matter how necessary hurling insults you think would be after the initial lie. But, that's past history. You know where to go to "like" as many sh*t-stirring posts as you can like in one sitting.

Unbelievable, huh? Where does this apologist draw the line?

Debbie, is this you being "helpful" again?  By insulting me?  I'm a Mike apologist now? 

No, I'm calling you a Mike's Beard/China Pig apologist, appropriate to your post.  How did I provoke that little creep into talking about Brian "dumping my saggy ass" to the point that you defended him? 

Please tell me how you didn't "insult" me in that?

Debbie.  Firstly, I don't agree with what he said, and I do think it was disrespectful.  I apologize if you took what I said about him being pushed to say that as an insult to you, as I didn't mean it that way.  

But, as I said before, your efforts to "help" fans understand Brian Wilson are often not very tactful, and can come across as insulting.  Like when one poster, observed that he'd seen Brian in concert three times, and each time, Brian was "worst than the last time."  You came back saying that was utter BS and that person didn't "get it."  Can you see how that can be off putting?  

How else was I supposed to take your defense of that poster?  He "hurled insults" because he was "pushed", even though he was posting after being banned under an essentially "illegal" screen name?  So I wasn't delicate enough with certain posters, and that's your equivalent?  You are clearly making the point about why you're here, and it certainly isn't about being "fair and balanced".

If you look at my post, I said that I thought that post from the ChinaPig was disrespectful.

I've already apologized, and I'm making an attempt to illustrate why some people have a problem with this forum.  And so far, you and Guitarfool are doing a wonderful job proving my point.   

Yes, you used the word "disrespectful," but you also said that he was "pushed" to "hurl insults."  You very clearly said that, too - right? I still am trying to understand that comment.  People who hurl insults, quite frankly, I'm happy to have on that "other forum."  I don't think most of us here care to have people posting who have bullied, harassed and made "joking" death threats against people.  Nor those who have lied, and/or made racist, misogynist comments.  If you want that kind of board, I have a pretty good idea where you can find it. 

So the point GF and I are making on your behalf is?  That we don't agree with you and say so?  Help me out here.

The point you and GF are making for me is that you refuse to acknowledge that there's a problem on this board.  And the attitudes of both of you are a big part of that problem.  You have both been disrespectful at various times towards me, and others on the board, whose opinions don't always jibe with your opinions. 

I've seen people who say that the constant complaining about Mike is tiresome called a fool, and a mod agree with it.  I've been posters (and this term is overused, but apt here) bullied for saying that they didn't care for Brian's last album.  I've seen posters' intelligence insulted because they enjoyed a Mike and Bruce concert. 

And when I tried to bring up some of these issues, I get insulted myself, or my point gets turned around. 

That's fine. 

Please explain the "problem" on this board - "debate" possibly - that isn't on other boards?

I can't quite make sense of your 2nd paragraph.  At some point you reference being "bullied."  That much I could make out.  How were you "bullied" that any one of us hasn't encountered here or elsewhere?  Good heavens.  I've been called a cheerleader, told I had "my claws out," been accused of having a "cat fight" with a woman who was advocating illegal downloads, harassed every time I posted for 10 days, told to move my "saggy ass" on, and on other boards, accused of being a fraud until a long-time friend posted in support of me, just as a few examples.

That's what we endure online, like it or not.

I'm not clear who insulted you or how - or what this has to do with some fool making stupid death threat against posters here. 

I'm not sure where you're going with this, other than to complain about this board, the mods and the posters here. 

If that's the case, we've heard your complaints.  Is that it?

[Dove Nested Towers]

Honestly, I think the problems on this board have been resolved, except for the occasional attempt to continue arguing about what the problems of the board used to be.
I also don't think that Mike's Beard is somehow free of responsibility for his own language, nor that disagreeing with someone is equivalent to not allowing them to state their opinion.

Hear, hear, +1. And nice to have you back BTW Emily, I enjoyed your back and forth with Rocky. Boy was that a thread from a morbidly fascinating version of Hell.

[Quincy]

Well Motts gone I think KDS is filling up the slack!

[Dove Nested Towers]

I don't think it's so much the dislike of Mike Love that he finds troubling.  

But the outright, hatred towards Mike that has a tendency to derail music based threads.  Or the attacks on posters who might dare to defend Mike, write something positive about a Mike show, or say something negative about a Brian Wilson song, album, or concert.  

I know there's a lot that Mike has done to make people dislike him.  But the blind hatred to the point where some people want to completely dismiss any positive contribution to The Beach Boys makes no sense to me.  

There are far worse people who get far less crap from their fans than Mike Love.  
[/quote

I think the problem, though, is that valid criticism in response to a specific issue (e.g. a Mike interview) is lumped in with "blind hatred."

I also think Mr. Lee doesn't come to such a conversation with much credibility, as he came on the board and egged on what he knew was such a divisive issue. He *starts* a thread about why people don't like Mike Love, and then complains about there being too many posters criticizing Mike? He *literally* asked for it!

That it eventually became obvious that he simply used the board to supplement an article he was writing (rather than doing actual research and reading the board's TEN YEARS of posts to learn more than anything he would ever need to know to write such an article) made the whole thing even more troubling.

A conversation about fan negativity is one worth having. But the guy who stoked the flames, then said pretty nasty stuff about the fan community, and then continued to post here, is *not* someone with credibility to speak to such a conversation.

Lee was textbook passive-aggressive in his final comments here, "I will gladly just leave if it will make you folks happy" etc. Those types are frequently the most disingenuous and two-faced, in my experience.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Kds...they respond like that because they've been driven to it and provoked in to it. And as far as being bullied be a use they didn't like Brian's last album, again, speaking only for myself...there a certain group of people whose sole purpose is to tear down Brian in order to boost Mike. Granted that percentage is small, but those are vocal enough that others who gave valid criticisms got lumped in with people like Autotune and Sheriff John Stone, fairly or not.

So to tear people down for criticizing NPP is OK because they might be one of the very few who supposedly have an axe to grind against Brian? 

I literally had just posted 'fairly or not'. Did you not see it? (Asking, not tearing you up)

I did.   But it seemed like you were OK with the criticism, be it fair or unfair. 

I didn't say that I was. If I did, wouldn't I think it was all fair? Think , McFly.

Point is, the f*** wits and sh*t weasels (to borrow a phrase) have ruined it for every body, and caused people to get jumped on that didn't deserve it.

[SurfRiderHawaii]

Mr. Lee was canned by the BBC. Judging from that, his behavior on this board, and now these comments, he is obviously dealing with some behavior issues. Death threats are no laughing matter. If he were here in the US, I would be filing a police report. Good riddance!

I must say, except for a couple of exceptions, this board is a much nicer, friendly, more respectful place these days.

[thorgil]

Sure ORR, and I add that it looks as lively as ever, contrary to what somebody predicted (or wished).

[Robbie Mac]

I've read pretty much every Beach Boys related interview since 2012 that I can get my minds on. 

Sure, I don't like a lot of what Mike has to say.  And he does tend to repeat himself.   To say it's an anti-Brian campaign seems a little silly to me. 

And we're hitting some common ground now, HJ.  When you said some of the people who rush to the defense of Brian can be "over the top."  That's true.  And the same Brian fans can be a little over the top on their criticisms of Mike, or anyone in his camp, to the point of trying to diminish his contributions, which is the same time of revisionist history that Mike sometimes spews in interviews. 

I have to say that at the point Mike tried to empathize with the point of view of Evan Landy last year, it very much reeked of an "enemy of my enemy is my friend" tact. Also, his David Beard interview/monologue ("hopefully there's no autotune") read very much as part of a campaign. I guess we can parse the definition of a "campaign", but basically what I mean is a continued effort to downplay/negate something rather than it just being random "stream of consciousness" ramblings.

Maybe Mike doesn't see it as "anti-Brian", but more "anti-the people around Brian", but it's the same thing, and the "people around Brian" stuff also is insulting to Brian.

As for having some context about past posts/archives relating to those who left this board for the other, here's one post from someone who used to post here and now posts on that other board:

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,23872.msg577773.html#msg577773

Does that read like someone escaping a bad board, or someone being a part of what is bad about a board?

I remember that well.  But I also believe the poster was pushed to the point where he thought it was necessary to hurl those insults.  A little tact would've been nice, though.  

From whom?

[SMiLE Brian]

Welcome back ORR!

[Debbie KL]

I don't think it's so much the dislike of Mike Love that he finds troubling.  

But the outright, hatred towards Mike that has a tendency to derail music based threads.  Or the attacks on posters who might dare to defend Mike, write something positive about a Mike show, or say something negative about a Brian Wilson song, album, or concert.  

I know there's a lot that Mike has done to make people dislike him.  But the blind hatred to the point where some people want to completely dismiss any positive contribution to The Beach Boys makes no sense to me.  

There are far worse people who get far less crap from their fans than Mike Love.  
[/quote

I think the problem, though, is that valid criticism in response to a specific issue (e.g. a Mike interview) is lumped in with "blind hatred."

I also think Mr. Lee doesn't come to such a conversation with much credibility, as he came on the board and egged on what he knew was such a divisive issue. He *starts* a thread about why people don't like Mike Love, and then complains about there being too many posters criticizing Mike? He *literally* asked for it!

That it eventually became obvious that he simply used the board to supplement an article he was writing (rather than doing actual research and reading the board's TEN YEARS of posts to learn more than anything he would ever need to know to write such an article) made the whole thing even more troubling.

A conversation about fan negativity is one worth having. But the guy who stoked the flames, then said pretty nasty stuff about the fan community, and then continued to post here, is *not* someone with credibility to speak to such a conversation.

Lee was textbook passive-aggressive in his final comments here, "I will gladly just leave if it will make you folks happy" etc. Those types are frequently the most disingenuous and two-faced, in my experience.

Thanks for bringing this back on-topic.  Iain is typical of a certain type who seems to enjoy success for a brief time - all gunslinger, fiery aggression (stupid death threats) when people who don't know what he's talking about are cheering him on.  Then, when someone calls him on his sh*t-stirring ulterior motives here, he gets "all hurt and pouty."  Right.  Enough of the manipulation. I can't imagine why this guy would be missed here or anywhere else.  

I'm sure he'll enjoy his new fellow posters, though.  He isn't the first of them who've moved to "the other board"  who remind me of him - some, of course, due to a valid ban here, others because they're getting more attention there - whatever.  Those who are actually interested in the facts will keep coming here - and all those folks who are selling their books, cds, etc. will post on all the boards as usual.  If this guy writes a book, would we even want to know about it?

[KDS]

I've read pretty much every Beach Boys related interview since 2012 that I can get my minds on. 

Sure, I don't like a lot of what Mike has to say.  And he does tend to repeat himself.   To say it's an anti-Brian campaign seems a little silly to me. 

And we're hitting some common ground now, HJ.  When you said some of the people who rush to the defense of Brian can be "over the top."  That's true.  And the same Brian fans can be a little over the top on their criticisms of Mike, or anyone in his camp, to the point of trying to diminish his contributions, which is the same time of revisionist history that Mike sometimes spews in interviews. 

I have to say that at the point Mike tried to empathize with the point of view of Evan Landy last year, it very much reeked of an "enemy of my enemy is my friend" tact. Also, his David Beard interview/monologue ("hopefully there's no autotune") read very much as part of a campaign. I guess we can parse the definition of a "campaign", but basically what I mean is a continued effort to downplay/negate something rather than it just being random "stream of consciousness" ramblings.

Maybe Mike doesn't see it as "anti-Brian", but more "anti-the people around Brian", but it's the same thing, and the "people around Brian" stuff also is insulting to Brian.

As for having some context about past posts/archives relating to those who left this board for the other, here's one post from someone who used to post here and now posts on that other board:

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,23872.msg577773.html#msg577773

Does that read like someone escaping a bad board, or someone being a part of what is bad about a board?

I remember that well.  But I also believe the poster was pushed to the point where he thought it was necessary to hurl those insults.  A little tact would've been nice, though.  

From whom?

Can't speak for him so I really can't say.

[Debbie KL]

Mr. Lee was canned by the BBC. Judging from that, his behavior on this board, and now these comments, he is obviously dealing with some behavior issues. Death threats are no laughing matter. If he were here in the US, I would be filing a police report. Good riddance!

I must say, except for a couple of exceptions, this board is a much nicer, friendly, more respectful place these days.

Yea! Good to see you ORR.  And as Thorgil said, it's as lively here as ever.  We certainly don't need disingenuous blow-hards who are trying to manipulate everyone - fake tough guys one minute, crying that no one "likes me" next.  Please grow up.  The other board is probably more appropriate to this guy's emotional age.

[KDS]

I've read pretty much every Beach Boys related interview since 2012 that I can get my minds on. 

Sure, I don't like a lot of what Mike has to say.  And he does tend to repeat himself.   To say it's an anti-Brian campaign seems a little silly to me. 

And we're hitting some common ground now, HJ.  When you said some of the people who rush to the defense of Brian can be "over the top."  That's true.  And the same Brian fans can be a little over the top on their criticisms of Mike, or anyone in his camp, to the point of trying to diminish his contributions, which is the same time of revisionist history that Mike sometimes spews in interviews. 

I have to say that at the point Mike tried to empathize with the point of view of Evan Landy last year, it very much reeked of an "enemy of my enemy is my friend" tact. Also, his David Beard interview/monologue ("hopefully there's no autotune") read very much as part of a campaign. I guess we can parse the definition of a "campaign", but basically what I mean is a continued effort to downplay/negate something rather than it just being random "stream of consciousness" ramblings.

Maybe Mike doesn't see it as "anti-Brian", but more "anti-the people around Brian", but it's the same thing, and the "people around Brian" stuff also is insulting to Brian.

As for having some context about past posts/archives relating to those who left this board for the other, here's one post from someone who used to post here and now posts on that other board:

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,23872.msg577773.html#msg577773

Does that read like someone escaping a bad board, or someone being a part of what is bad about a board?

I remember that well.  But I also believe the poster was pushed to the point where he thought it was necessary to hurl those insults.  A little tact would've been nice, though.  

Nice spin, KDS. Says all we need to know. Maybe...just maybe...not lying and not creating fake aliases and using IP maskers to hide behind an alias and evade a ban would have been the "tactful" way to act. After that, all else is bunk no matter how necessary hurling insults you think would be after the initial lie. But, that's past history. You know where to go to "like" as many sh*t-stirring posts as you can like in one sitting.

Unbelievable, huh? Where does this apologist draw the line?

Debbie, is this you being "helpful" again?  By insulting me?  I'm a Mike apologist now? 

No, I'm calling you a Mike's Beard/China Pig apologist, appropriate to your post.  How did I provoke that little creep into talking about Brian "dumping my saggy ass" to the point that you defended him? 

Please tell me how you didn't "insult" me in that?

Debbie.  Firstly, I don't agree with what he said, and I do think it was disrespectful.  I apologize if you took what I said about him being pushed to say that as an insult to you, as I didn't mean it that way.  

But, as I said before, your efforts to "help" fans understand Brian Wilson are often not very tactful, and can come across as insulting.  Like when one poster, observed that he'd seen Brian in concert three times, and each time, Brian was "worst than the last time."  You came back saying that was utter BS and that person didn't "get it."  Can you see how that can be off putting?  

How else was I supposed to take your defense of that poster?  He "hurled insults" because he was "pushed", even though he was posting after being banned under an essentially "illegal" screen name?  So I wasn't delicate enough with certain posters, and that's your equivalent?  You are clearly making the point about why you're here, and it certainly isn't about being "fair and balanced".

If you look at my post, I said that I thought that post from the ChinaPig was disrespectful.

I've already apologized, and I'm making an attempt to illustrate why some people have a problem with this forum.  And so far, you and Guitarfool are doing a wonderful job proving my point.   

Yes, you used the word "disrespectful," but you also said that he was "pushed" to "hurl insults."  You very clearly said that, too - right? I still am trying to understand that comment.  People who hurl insults, quite frankly, I'm happy to have on that "other forum."  I don't think most of us here care to have people posting who have bullied, harassed and made "joking" death threats against people.  Nor those who have lied, and/or made racist, misogynist comments.  If you want that kind of board, I have a pretty good idea where you can find it. 

So the point GF and I are making on your behalf is?  That we don't agree with you and say so?  Help me out here.

The point you and GF are making for me is that you refuse to acknowledge that there's a problem on this board.  And the attitudes of both of you are a big part of that problem.  You have both been disrespectful at various times towards me, and others on the board, whose opinions don't always jibe with your opinions. 

I've seen people who say that the constant complaining about Mike is tiresome called a fool, and a mod agree with it.  I've been posters (and this term is overused, but apt here) bullied for saying that they didn't care for Brian's last album.  I've seen posters' intelligence insulted because they enjoyed a Mike and Bruce concert. 

And when I tried to bring up some of these issues, I get insulted myself, or my point gets turned around. 

That's fine. 

Please explain the "problem" on this board - "debate" possibly - that isn't on other boards?

I can't quite make sense of your 2nd paragraph.  At some point you reference being "bullied."  That much I could make out.  How were you "bullied" that any one of us hasn't encountered here or elsewhere?  Good heavens.  I've been called a cheerleader, told I had "my claws out," been accused of having a "cat fight" with a woman who was advocating illegal downloads, harassed every time I posted for 10 days, told to move my "saggy ass" on, and on other boards, accused of being a fraud until a long-time friend posted in support of me, just as a few examples.

That's what we endure online, like it or not.

I'm not clear who insulted you or how - or what this has to do with some fool making stupid death threat against posters here. 

I'm not sure where you're going with this, other than to complain about this board, the mods and the posters here. 

If that's the case, we've heard your complaints.  Is that it?

Well, I'm glad that you, GF, and Billy have approached my posts today with the level of maturity I've sadly come to expect from the SSMB.  

My posts here have nothing to do with the death threats you keep bringing up.  I don't condone them.  

But, like I said earlier, I've participated on message boards (music, sports, tv, movies, etc) for almost 20 years now, and I've never experienced the toxicity that exists here.  

[Debbie KL]

I've read pretty much every Beach Boys related interview since 2012 that I can get my minds on. 

Sure, I don't like a lot of what Mike has to say.  And he does tend to repeat himself.   To say it's an anti-Brian campaign seems a little silly to me. 

And we're hitting some common ground now, HJ.  When you said some of the people who rush to the defense of Brian can be "over the top."  That's true.  And the same Brian fans can be a little over the top on their criticisms of Mike, or anyone in his camp, to the point of trying to diminish his contributions, which is the same time of revisionist history that Mike sometimes spews in interviews. 

I have to say that at the point Mike tried to empathize with the point of view of Evan Landy last year, it very much reeked of an "enemy of my enemy is my friend" tact. Also, his David Beard interview/monologue ("hopefully there's no autotune") read very much as part of a campaign. I guess we can parse the definition of a "campaign", but basically what I mean is a continued effort to downplay/negate something rather than it just being random "stream of consciousness" ramblings.

Maybe Mike doesn't see it as "anti-Brian", but more "anti-the people around Brian", but it's the same thing, and the "people around Brian" stuff also is insulting to Brian.

As for having some context about past posts/archives relating to those who left this board for the other, here's one post from someone who used to post here and now posts on that other board:

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,23872.msg577773.html#msg577773

Does that read like someone escaping a bad board, or someone being a part of what is bad about a board?

I remember that well.  But I also believe the poster was pushed to the point where he thought it was necessary to hurl those insults.  A little tact would've been nice, though.  

Nice spin, KDS. Says all we need to know. Maybe...just maybe...not lying and not creating fake aliases and using IP maskers to hide behind an alias and evade a ban would have been the "tactful" way to act. After that, all else is bunk no matter how necessary hurling insults you think would be after the initial lie. But, that's past history. You know where to go to "like" as many sh*t-stirring posts as you can like in one sitting.

Unbelievable, huh? Where does this apologist draw the line?

Debbie, is this you being "helpful" again?  By insulting me?  I'm a Mike apologist now? 

No, I'm calling you a Mike's Beard/China Pig apologist, appropriate to your post.  How did I provoke that little creep into talking about Brian "dumping my saggy ass" to the point that you defended him? 

Please tell me how you didn't "insult" me in that?

Debbie.  Firstly, I don't agree with what he said, and I do think it was disrespectful.  I apologize if you took what I said about him being pushed to say that as an insult to you, as I didn't mean it that way.  

But, as I said before, your efforts to "help" fans understand Brian Wilson are often not very tactful, and can come across as insulting.  Like when one poster, observed that he'd seen Brian in concert three times, and each time, Brian was "worst than the last time."  You came back saying that was utter BS and that person didn't "get it."  Can you see how that can be off putting?  

How else was I supposed to take your defense of that poster?  He "hurled insults" because he was "pushed", even though he was posting after being banned under an essentially "illegal" screen name?  So I wasn't delicate enough with certain posters, and that's your equivalent?  You are clearly making the point about why you're here, and it certainly isn't about being "fair and balanced".

If you look at my post, I said that I thought that post from the ChinaPig was disrespectful.

I've already apologized, and I'm making an attempt to illustrate why some people have a problem with this forum.  And so far, you and Guitarfool are doing a wonderful job proving my point.   

Yes, you used the word "disrespectful," but you also said that he was "pushed" to "hurl insults."  You very clearly said that, too - right? I still am trying to understand that comment.  People who hurl insults, quite frankly, I'm happy to have on that "other forum."  I don't think most of us here care to have people posting who have bullied, harassed and made "joking" death threats against people.  Nor those who have lied, and/or made racist, misogynist comments.  If you want that kind of board, I have a pretty good idea where you can find it. 

So the point GF and I are making on your behalf is?  That we don't agree with you and say so?  Help me out here.

The point you and GF are making for me is that you refuse to acknowledge that there's a problem on this board.  And the attitudes of both of you are a big part of that problem.  You have both been disrespectful at various times towards me, and others on the board, whose opinions don't always jibe with your opinions. 

I've seen people who say that the constant complaining about Mike is tiresome called a fool, and a mod agree with it.  I've been posters (and this term is overused, but apt here) bullied for saying that they didn't care for Brian's last album.  I've seen posters' intelligence insulted because they enjoyed a Mike and Bruce concert. 

And when I tried to bring up some of these issues, I get insulted myself, or my point gets turned around. 

That's fine. 

Please explain the "problem" on this board - "debate" possibly - that isn't on other boards?

I can't quite make sense of your 2nd paragraph.  At some point you reference being "bullied."  That much I could make out.  How were you "bullied" that any one of us hasn't encountered here or elsewhere?  Good heavens.  I've been called a cheerleader, told I had "my claws out," been accused of having a "cat fight" with a woman who was advocating illegal downloads, harassed every time I posted for 10 days, told to move my "saggy ass" on, and on other boards, accused of being a fraud until a long-time friend posted in support of me, just as a few examples.

That's what we endure online, like it or not.

I'm not clear who insulted you or how - or what this has to do with some fool making stupid death threat against posters here. 

I'm not sure where you're going with this, other than to complain about this board, the mods and the posters here. 

If that's the case, we've heard your complaints.  Is that it?

Well, I'm glad that you, GF, and Billy have approached my posts today with the level of maturity I've sadly come to expect from the SSMB.  

My posts here have nothing to do with the death threats you keep bringing up.  I don't condone them.  

But, like I said earlier, I've participated on message boards (music, sports, tv, movies, etc) for almost 20 years now, and I've never experienced the toxicity that exists here.  

Although it may be "immature" of me to bring this up, the Iain Lee death threat is the topic of this thread.  Would it be okay with you if we continue that discussion?

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

I've read pretty much every Beach Boys related interview since 2012 that I can get my minds on.  

Sure, I don't like a lot of what Mike has to say.  And he does tend to repeat himself.   To say it's an anti-Brian campaign seems a little silly to me.  

And we're hitting some common ground now, HJ.  When you said some of the people who rush to the defense of Brian can be "over the top."  That's true.  And the same Brian fans can be a little over the top on their criticisms of Mike, or anyone in his camp, to the point of trying to diminish his contributions, which is the same time of revisionist history that Mike sometimes spews in interviews.  

I have to say that at the point Mike tried to empathize with the point of view of Evan Landy last year, it very much reeked of an "enemy of my enemy is my friend" tact. Also, his David Beard interview/monologue ("hopefully there's no autotune") read very much as part of a campaign. I guess we can parse the definition of a "campaign", but basically what I mean is a continued effort to downplay/negate something rather than it just being random "stream of consciousness" ramblings.

Maybe Mike doesn't see it as "anti-Brian", but more "anti-the people around Brian", but it's the same thing, and the "people around Brian" stuff also is insulting to Brian.

As for having some context about past posts/archives relating to those who left this board for the other, here's one post from someone who used to post here and now posts on that other board:

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,23872.msg577773.html#msg577773

Does that read like someone escaping a bad board, or someone being a part of what is bad about a board?

I remember that well.  But I also believe the poster was pushed to the point where he thought it was necessary to hurl those insults.  A little tact would've been nice, though.  

From whom?

Can't speak for him so I really can't say.

Are we talking about the same guy who was also making anti-Trans comments? I got complaints form several people about him.

And what do you mean about my level of maturity?  I've been calm this whole time but now I am a little peeved. Please explain.

[KDS]

Basically, Billy, I hoped to bring to light some of the perceived problems with this board.

Debbie, GF, and to a lesser extent yourself decided you'd rather go on the offensive rather than have a productive dialog. 

So, I know all I need to know.  The Smiley Smile Message Board is a haven for Brianistas.  Anyone with an opinion which doesn't follow the Brianista agenda probably shouldn't post there. 

That's pretty much what I expected.  Thought I don't really understand how people who worship a man who has spent over half a century creating beautiful, life changing music can be so bitter, crass, and hate filled. 

As I've said many times on here.  I'm a fan of The Beach Boys.  I'm a fan of Brian Wilson, Carl Wilson, Dennis Wilson, Al Jardine, David Marks, Blondie Chaplin, Bruce Johnston, Ricky Fataar, and yes, Mike Love. 

I gladly pay to see Brian Wilson and his great band and Mike Love and his great band, and enjoy every note. 

I listen to everything from Surfin to No Pier Pressure, and everything in between, some more than others. 

But, for my own well being, I'm taking an extended leave from this board before a certain small portion make me start resenting the very music that I love enough to make me sign up for such a message board. 

[HeyJude]

What constitutes "toxic" is of course open to interpretation, but I can't imagine staying in a place that I found to be, over the course of 20 years of internet browsing, the most toxic place I'd ever seen.

Let me be clear, this is not a hint or implication or wish for anyone to leave this board. I just have to wonder why we have now more than one example of someone characterizing this place as *the worst place on the internet" who for some reason seem to keep coming back here.

Now, I think such a characterization is beyond ridiculous, and it suggests to me either huge amounts of hyperbole or having lived the most sheltered of sheltered internet existences. I could find stuff a hundred times worst than the worst thing ever posted here in a few short minutes by perusing the YouTube "Comments" section on countless videos there.

Back to the idea of coming back here despite finding it the WORST place ever on the internet, I think *THAT* is perhaps why we end up in these super "Meta" discussions about the board itself. People who want to be here are here. Most people who don't want to be here aren't here. I think that makes for a pretty calm situation. So maybe it's the people who seem to have utter contempt for the board but who keep coming back, often to remind us all how awful it is here, who are causing these circular debates.

I agree with Emily and others. It has been pretty good overall here. Not perfect; it never has. Considering the feeling I think many (including myself) had a year or two ago when Mike's book was announced that every corner of the BB internet universe would implode once the book hit, I think things are pretty okay.

I've seen the same two usual pro-Mike suspects (one now gone) criticize the criticism of the book, one s**t-disturber who pre-judged anyone who would be critical of the book the same way he apparently feels those people would criticize the book itself (that person is now also gone), and that's mostly it.

Beyond that, we're getting into a bunch of circular semantics where we're talking about the criticism itself, or the state of the board itself.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Basically, Billy, I hoped to bring to light some of the perceived problems with this board.

Debbie, GF, and to a lesser extent yourself decided you'd rather go on the offensive rather than have a productive dialog.  

So, I know all I need to know.  The Smiley Smile Message Board is a haven for Brianistas.  Anyone with an opinion which doesn't follow the Brianista agenda probably shouldn't post there.  

That's pretty much what I expected.  Thought I don't really understand how people who worship a man who has spent over half a century creating beautiful, life changing music can be so bitter, crass, and hate filled.  

As I've said many times on here.  I'm a fan of The Beach Boys.  I'm a fan of Brian Wilson, Carl Wilson, Dennis Wilson, Al Jardine, David Marks, Blondie Chaplin, Bruce Johnston, Ricky Fataar, and yes, Mike Love.  

I gladly pay to see Brian Wilson and his great band and Mike Love and his great band, and enjoy every note.  

I listen to everything from Surfin to No Pier Pressure, and everything in between, some more than others.  

But, for my own well being, I'm taking an extended leave from this board before a certain small portion make me start resenting the very music that I love enough to make me sign up for such a message board.  

How am I going on the offensive?   I wasn't being snarky or offensive when I asked earlier. ..I really don't know why you feel that way towards me. I meant what I said when I said I respect Mike's musical contributions.  Keep in mind you're talking to someone  who LIKES Looking Back with Love and hates Imagination.  I don't think much of him as a person, I think he bullied Brian for far too long, I think he's two faced and a phiny. But I will give him his fair due artistically  when he deserves it.

Brian Wilson is not just my musical hero...hrs my personal hero and meeting him is on my bucket list.

If everything I said above makes me a Brianista,  then f*** it...I'm a Brianista and proud of it

If you want to leave then do so, but it's your own decision.  I'm not asking you to, telling you to, or forcing you to. Just do it or don't,  hug if you do, please don't go on that other board and say how I forced you out.

[CenturyDeprived]

As I've said many times on here.  I'm a fan of The Beach Boys.  I'm a fan of Brian Wilson, Carl Wilson, Dennis Wilson, Al Jardine, David Marks, Blondie Chaplin, Bruce Johnston, Ricky Fataar, and yes, Mike Love. 

I'm a fan of all those guys too, including Mike. I like Mike tracks *including* many that he did not do with Brian. Doesn't mean that I won't call out his BS when I believe it's justified to do so. I think the vast majority of people here would agree with this sentiment.