Iain Lee's Opinion Of This Forum: "I'd kill everybody on that board. Everybody."

[KDS]

Iain Lee comments on the Smiley Smile board at 45:15 into the video. Published June 15th, Richard Herring's Leicester Square Theatre Podcast - with Iain Lee #101.

"I'd kill everybody on that board. Everybody, without shadow of a doubt, yeah."

https://youtu.be/fp8a_G6YsnA?t=45m15s

Twitter today:



'This place [Pet Sounds forum] seems nicer'? Ignorance is bliss. Instead of writing off all of those who dislike Mike Love, perhaps he should try to find out why. But if he has read the book and still doesn't know, I suppose there's no hope for him.

I don't think it's so much the dislike of Mike Love that he finds troubling. 

But the outright, hatred towards Mike that has a tendency to derail music based threads.  Or the attacks on posters who might dare to defend Mike, write something positive about a Mike show, or say something negative about a Brian Wilson song, album, or concert. 

I know there's a lot that Mike has done to make people dislike him.  But the blind hatred to the point where some people want to completely dismiss any positive contribution to The Beach Boys makes no sense to me. 

There are far worse people who get far less crap from their fans than Mike Love. 

[HeyJude]

I guess maybe because I've been on the internet for now over 20 years, I've seen far, far weirder groups of fans. Even just among music fans.

This place is often more analytical than other places, but that's what separates it from the "everything is awesome!!!!" communities online. With all due respect, I'm glad this board isn't the "Endless Summer Quarterly" of message boards. Those things have their place too.

I *do* think there are very few cases where a main member of a band has such a large number of detractors among that band's actual hardcore fans. And while I think as fans some self-reflection is always important; we do need to look at how we're acting and our attitudes, I think that interesting factoid about BB fans has far more to do with *Mike Love* than it does the fans. The fans aren't the ones saying and doing all of the things Mike says and does.

I was talking awhile back with someone and we were trying to determine if a George Lucas-Mike Love analogy was apt enough. That is, a main creative figure in a franchise where huge droves of fans heap such scorn. I think the analogy is good enough to make a very general comparison, but I don't think even George Lucas is quite as deserving of the criticism quite as much as Mike is.  

[HeyJude]

I don't think it's so much the dislike of Mike Love that he finds troubling.  

But the outright, hatred towards Mike that has a tendency to derail music based threads.  Or the attacks on posters who might dare to defend Mike, write something positive about a Mike show, or say something negative about a Brian Wilson song, album, or concert.  

I know there's a lot that Mike has done to make people dislike him.  But the blind hatred to the point where some people want to completely dismiss any positive contribution to The Beach Boys makes no sense to me.  

There are far worse people who get far less crap from their fans than Mike Love.  

I think the problem, though, is that valid criticism in response to a specific issue (e.g. a Mike interview) is lumped in with "blind hatred."

I also think Mr. Lee doesn't come to such a conversation with much credibility, as he came on the board and egged on what he knew was such a divisive issue. He *starts* a thread about why people don't like Mike Love, and then complains about there being too many posters criticizing Mike? He *literally* asked for it!

That it eventually became obvious that he simply used the board to supplement an article he was writing (rather than doing actual research and reading the board's TEN YEARS of posts to learn more than anything he would ever need to know to write such an article) made the whole thing even more troubling.

A conversation about fan negativity is one worth having. But the guy who stoked the flames, then said pretty nasty stuff about the fan community, and then continued to post here, is *not* someone with credibility to speak to such a conversation.

[KDS]

I guess maybe because I've been on the internet for now over 20 years, I've seen far, far weirder groups of fans. Even just among music fans.

This place is often more analytical than other places, but that's what separates it from the "everything is awesome!!!!" communities online. With all due respect, I'm glad this board isn't the "Endless Summer Quarterly" of message boards. Those things have their place too.

I *do* think there are very few cases where a main member of a band has such a large number of detractors among that band's actual hardcore fans. And while I think as fans some self-reflection is always important; we do need to look at how we're acting and our attitudes, I think that interesting factoid about BB fans has far more to do with *Mike Love* than it does the fans. The fans aren't the ones saying and doing all of the things Mike says and does.

I was talking awhile back with someone and we were trying to determine if a George Lucas-Mike Love analogy was apt enough. That is, a main creative figure in a franchise where huge droves of fans heap such scorn. I think the analogy is good enough to make a very general comparison, but I don't think even George Lucas is quite as deserving of the criticism quite as much as Mike is.  

I've been on a lot of band/artists boards, and I've seen some divisive band members (Gene Simmons of KISS comes to mind).

But, I've never seen fans who defend those members get attacked and accused of "being on payroll."  So, it's not so much the dislike of Mike that I have an issue with, it's the venom and ridiculous conspiracy stuff directed as fans who dare say something nice about Mike (ie. a poster supposedly being supplied concert tickets by Mike's camp).  

Example, roughly 20 years ago, when Pink Floyd was still an active band, there were the Roger fans v the Dave Fans, but I never saw a fan who praised The Division Bell or P.U.L.S.E. get accused of being on David Gilmour's payroll.  Same with the Sammy Hagar v David Lee Roth thing.  

I think fans can disagree and still be civil and respectful.  

[Debbie KL]

Luckily for me I don't give a f*** what he thinks anyway 

Yes - He talks out of his a**, pretty much all the time, and with the right group of people who know nothing about his subject matter, gets some chuckles.  I loved it when, in the same post after replying to my calling him out on his previous SS bullsh*t, he told me to "calm down" (you know, the "little woman was all emotional," right?), he immediately then starts his little girl pout about how maybe people don't like him and maybe he should take his toys and go from the board. If the PS board wants him, great.  I'll never go there anyway, so I won't have to endure this fool again, that is, unless he sends a hit man to my house.

This clearly is the year of the completely reckless, semi-literate clown getting lots of air-time.  Hopefully, we've seen the last of this one.  

[HeyJude]

The "payroll" stuff gets way too muddy, because I think sometimes it's meant a bit more figuratively.

I tend to doubt much of anyone literally puts fans on the payroll, like actually paying them money, to say nice things about them (and/or attack the "opposition").

It's a much more subtle, muddy situation. It's more like there is a very small number of people who are not objective because of perks or simply out of being in the vicinity of one particular member of the group.

If someone gets free tickets or free backstage passes all the time, and/or gets other stuff comped by, let's say Mike, and they also regularly defend Mike (sometimes against pretty indefensible stuff) and also tend to, say, criticize Brian more, I would question that person's objectivity. It doesn't mean they're literally "on the payroll."

Even muddier is the seeming "objective" fan or journalist who only has regular contact with one member. So someone who is, let's say for example, on the outs with Brian's "camp" but regularly talks to Mike and people in Mike's camp, who gets backstage passes and whatnot, they get all of their information and "intel" from one source. They may either turn their blinders on or genuinely (and naively) believe what they're "hearing" is the full truth and act accordingly. They talk to Mike, Mike's nice to them. Maybe they hear a bunch of negative stuff about Brian and Brian's camp when they run in those circles. So then maybe some stuff that reflects pretty negatively on Mike is ignored, and things that might reflect negatively on Brian (or Al) are highlighted.

There are plenty (in fact most) of people on this board who are fans and nothing more, never talk to any insiders or anyone from any "camps."

But there are folks who *do* talk to one, two, or all "sides." Some of those folks have their head screwed on straight and can remain analytical and objective as they take in all of this "intel" and information. Others, either through an agenda or opinion they already have, and/or because of the "input" they get from one "side", run with that and end up potentially compromising any objectivity by feeling the need to defend that "side."

[halblaineisgood]

noun, Chiefly New York State.
1.
a channel; creek; stream; river: used especially in place names:
Kill Van Kull.

[Debbie KL]

Iain Lee comments on the Smiley Smile board at 45:15 into the video. Published June 15th, Richard Herring's Leicester Square Theatre Podcast - with Iain Lee #101.

"I'd kill everybody on that board. Everybody, without shadow of a doubt, yeah."

https://youtu.be/fp8a_G6YsnA?t=45m15s

Twitter today:



'This place [Pet Sounds forum] seems nicer'? Ignorance is bliss. Instead of writing off all of those who dislike Mike Love, perhaps he should try to find out why. But if he has read the book and still doesn't know, I suppose there's no hope for him.

I don't think it's so much the dislike of Mike Love that he finds troubling. 

But the outright, hatred towards Mike that has a tendency to derail music based threads.  Or the attacks on posters who might dare to defend Mike, write something positive about a Mike show, or say something negative about a Brian Wilson song, album, or concert. 

I know there's a lot that Mike has done to make people dislike him.  But the blind hatred to the point where some people want to completely dismiss any positive contribution to The Beach Boys makes no sense to me. 

There are far worse people who get far less crap from their fans than Mike Love. 

Please specify who these people are who express "outright hatred" for Mike.  What attacks do Mike's fans endure that are any worse than the attacks/challenges that Brian supporters have faced here, whether it's about recorded music, concerts, whatever?

As I said before, I've never seen a death threat against Mike here, yet I just saw one against me - most of us, I guess - by some disingenuous semi-comedian (Pickle Brothers, anyone?) for posting a challenge to the little whiner's intentions.  I think he's proven my point about why he was here.

[KDS]

The "payroll" stuff gets way too muddy, because I think sometimes it's meant a bit more figuratively.

I tend to doubt much of anyone literally puts fans on the payroll, like actually paying them money, to say nice things about them (and/or attack the "opposition").

It's a much more subtle, muddy situation. It's more like there is a very small number of people who are not objective because of perks or simply out of being in the vicinity of one particular member of the group.

If someone gets free tickets or free backstage passes all the time, and/or gets other stuff comped by, let's say Mike, and they also regularly defend Mike (sometimes against pretty indefensible stuff) and also tend to, say, criticize Brian more, I would question that person's objectivity. It doesn't mean they're literally "on the payroll."

Even muddier is the seeming "objective" fan or journalist who only has regular contact with one member. So someone who is, let's say for example, on the outs with Brian's "camp" but regularly talks to Mike and people in Mike's camp, who gets backstage passes and whatnot, they get all of their information and "intel" from one source. They may either turn their blinders on or genuinely (and naively) believe what they're "hearing" is the full truth and act accordingly. They talk to Mike, Mike's nice to them. Maybe they hear a bunch of negative stuff about Brian and Brian's camp when they run in those circles. So then maybe some stuff that reflects pretty negatively on Mike is ignored, and things that might reflect negatively on Brian (or Al) are highlighted.

There are plenty (in fact most) of people on this board who are fans and nothing more, never talk to any insiders or anyone from any "camps."

But there are folks who *do* talk to one, two, or all "sides." Some of those folks have their head screwed on straight and can remain analytical and objective as they take in all of this "intel" and information. Others, either through an agenda or opinion they already have, and/or because of the "input" they get from one "side", run with that and end up potentially compromising any objectivity by feeling the need to defend that "side."

I don't doubt there are people on this board who are legit fans with no ties (like myself), and oftentimes fans are the ones who're called "fools" by one side or another because we don't pick a side......or we pick the "wrong" side.  

[thorgil]

No, I'm never going to be friends with anyone who says he's gladly kill me and my friends (hopefully not serious) and calls me and my friends the worst "arseholes" in the Internet (and this IS serious).
Not with anyone (namely, the Pet Sounds forum) who gladly hosts such a "tool".
Sorry, kds. Universal peace is impossible, as much as I'd wish for it.
I tend to take death threats, and heavy insults, seriously. My bad, I know. 

[KDS]

Iain Lee comments on the Smiley Smile board at 45:15 into the video. Published June 15th, Richard Herring's Leicester Square Theatre Podcast - with Iain Lee #101.

"I'd kill everybody on that board. Everybody, without shadow of a doubt, yeah."

https://youtu.be/fp8a_G6YsnA?t=45m15s

Twitter today:



'This place [Pet Sounds forum] seems nicer'? Ignorance is bliss. Instead of writing off all of those who dislike Mike Love, perhaps he should try to find out why. But if he has read the book and still doesn't know, I suppose there's no hope for him.

I don't think it's so much the dislike of Mike Love that he finds troubling. 

But the outright, hatred towards Mike that has a tendency to derail music based threads.  Or the attacks on posters who might dare to defend Mike, write something positive about a Mike show, or say something negative about a Brian Wilson song, album, or concert. 

I know there's a lot that Mike has done to make people dislike him.  But the blind hatred to the point where some people want to completely dismiss any positive contribution to The Beach Boys makes no sense to me. 

There are far worse people who get far less crap from their fans than Mike Love. 

Please specify who these people are who express "outright hatred" for Mike.  What attacks do Mike's fans endure that are any worse than the attacks/challenges that Brian supporters have faced here, whether it's about recorded music, concerts, whatever?

As I said before, I've never seen a death threat against Mike here, yet I just saw one against me - most of us, I guess - by some disingenuous semi-comedian (Pickle Brothers, anyone?) for posting a challenge to the little whiner's intentions.  I think he's proven my point about why he was here.

It's not just specifically Mike's fans who get attacked.  Debbie, you always go on the offensive anytime a fan posts a review of a Brian show who says things like "Brian seemed out of it,"  "Brian wasn't as engaged as one show or another,"  or "Brian's vocals were off this particular night" regardless of the fact that said poster may be posting a positive review of the concert, you harp on the one criticism and accuse that person of "not getting it."  Debbie, you have a unique insight into the world of the Beach Boys, but instead of sharing your knowledge with fans, you seem to be more interested in putting them down.  

I didn't mention anything about death threats, and I'm not speaking specifically about Ian's comments.  I'm just speaking specifically to the root of the issue most people seem to have with this Board.  

As I'm sure you know, I'm on this board as well as Brian's Board, and the Pet Sounds Board.  On both the BW Board and the PS Board, it seems fans can disagree and keep it civil, but that doesn't seem to be the case here.  

I'm not particularly interested in putting one side against another because, shouldn't we all be on the same side?  Aren't we all Beach Boys fans at the end of the day?  Regardless of whether or not we put Love You in our top three albums.  Or enjoy listening to Kokomo on a summer day.  Or don't much care of the No Pier Pressure album.   Or enjoy seeing Brian's band more than Mike's, or vice versa.  Or pine for another C50 style reunion.  

[KDS]

No, I'm never going to be friends with anyone who says he's gladly kill me and my friends (hopefully not serious) and calls me and my friends the worst "arseholes" in the Internet (and this IS serious).
Not with anyone (namely, the Pet Sounds forum) who gladly hosts such a "tool".
Sorry, kds. Universal peace is impossible, as much as I'd wish for it.
I tend to take death threats, and heavy insults, seriously. My bad, I know. Evil

Universal peace is impossible.  And I'm not here to defend a death threat. 

But, I find it childish and silly for fans of the same band to fight to the point that a rival board needed to be created. 

[Debbie KL]

Iain Lee comments on the Smiley Smile board at 45:15 into the video. Published June 15th, Richard Herring's Leicester Square Theatre Podcast - with Iain Lee #101.

"I'd kill everybody on that board. Everybody, without shadow of a doubt, yeah."

https://youtu.be/fp8a_G6YsnA?t=45m15s

Twitter today:



'This place [Pet Sounds forum] seems nicer'? Ignorance is bliss. Instead of writing off all of those who dislike Mike Love, perhaps he should try to find out why. But if he has read the book and still doesn't know, I suppose there's no hope for him.

I don't think it's so much the dislike of Mike Love that he finds troubling.  

But the outright, hatred towards Mike that has a tendency to derail music based threads.  Or the attacks on posters who might dare to defend Mike, write something positive about a Mike show, or say something negative about a Brian Wilson song, album, or concert.  

I know there's a lot that Mike has done to make people dislike him.  But the blind hatred to the point where some people want to completely dismiss any positive contribution to The Beach Boys makes no sense to me.  

There are far worse people who get far less crap from their fans than Mike Love.  

Please specify who these people are who express "outright hatred" for Mike.  What attacks do Mike's fans endure that are any worse than the attacks/challenges that Brian supporters have faced here, whether it's about recorded music, concerts, whatever?

As I said before, I've never seen a death threat against Mike here, yet I just saw one against me - most of us, I guess - by some disingenuous semi-comedian (Pickle Brothers, anyone?) for posting a challenge to the little whiner's intentions.  I think he's proven my point about why he was here.

It's not just specifically Mike's fans who get attacked.  Debbie, you always go on the offensive anytime a fan posts a review of a Brian show who says things like "Brian seemed out of it,"  "Brian wasn't as engaged as one show or another,"  or "Brian's vocals were off this particular night" regardless of the fact that said poster may be posting a positive review of the concert, you harp on the one criticism and accuse that person of "not getting it."  Debbie, you have a unique insight into the world of the Beach Boys, but instead of sharing your knowledge with fans, you seem to be more interested in putting them down.  

I didn't mention anything about death threats, and I'm not speaking specifically about Ian's comments.  I'm just speaking specifically to the root of the issue most people seem to have with this Board.  

As I'm sure you know, I'm on this board as well as Brian's Board, and the Pet Sounds Board.  On both the BW Board and the PS Board, it seems fans can disagree and keep it civil, but that doesn't seem to be the case here.  

I'm not particularly interested in putting one side against another because, shouldn't we all be on the same side?  Aren't we all Beach Boys fans at the end of the day?  Regardless of whether or not we put Love You in our top three albums.  Or enjoy listening to Kokomo on a summer day.  Or don't much care of the No Pier Pressure album.   Or enjoy seeing Brian's band more than Mike's, or vice versa.  Or pine for another C50 style reunion.  

I do point out to people that certain gestures and facial expressions of Brian's don't mean what they think when he's onstage.  I thought that was offering insights on how to "get" Brian.  Apparently not?  I didn't realize that I was "going on the offensive."  

I did point out that uneven vocals in live shows may have a lot to do with NOT using vocal processing when performing onstage.  Brian has, oddly, been accused of vocal processing at the same time that he's accused of being "uneven."  I found that hypocritical from Mike's fans when some videos I've seen online of Mike's band (apparently live?) certainly reek of those tools.  I thought maybe it was something to do with the poster adding this until Stephen Desper - a man I used to love watch working the board both in the studio and at BB concerts - came away from an M&B concert with the conclusion that this was what Mike's band was doing at a fairly recent show.  And he posted it here and I appreciated his honest clarification of what I was hearing.

Does that make me a "Mike hater?"  Seriously, I'd like to know.

Believe it or not, I talk to "both sides" as well.  I just despise lies and hypocrisy and it shows, I guess.  I do try to educate, and I guess some sensitive types get their feelings hurt. It wasn't my intention.  I just don't know how fragile some people are or aren't.

I know you weren't the one to claim death threats against Mike.  That would have been Mike's SS online attorney who was attempting to derail, yet another thread.

But I just had a death threat launched against me.  Having that idiot call me an "arsehole" is something I took as a compliment.  I'm glad I got under his thin skin.  Should I be ignoring that because, you know, we fans all have to get along?

[Ang Jones]

TBH I think that fans respond in kind. So if there is a band which has factions and divisions, that is mirrored in the fan base.

[KDS]

Iain Lee comments on the Smiley Smile board at 45:15 into the video. Published June 15th, Richard Herring's Leicester Square Theatre Podcast - with Iain Lee #101.

"I'd kill everybody on that board. Everybody, without shadow of a doubt, yeah."

https://youtu.be/fp8a_G6YsnA?t=45m15s

Twitter today:



'This place [Pet Sounds forum] seems nicer'? Ignorance is bliss. Instead of writing off all of those who dislike Mike Love, perhaps he should try to find out why. But if he has read the book and still doesn't know, I suppose there's no hope for him.

I don't think it's so much the dislike of Mike Love that he finds troubling. 

But the outright, hatred towards Mike that has a tendency to derail music based threads.  Or the attacks on posters who might dare to defend Mike, write something positive about a Mike show, or say something negative about a Brian Wilson song, album, or concert. 

I know there's a lot that Mike has done to make people dislike him.  But the blind hatred to the point where some people want to completely dismiss any positive contribution to The Beach Boys makes no sense to me. 

There are far worse people who get far less crap from their fans than Mike Love. 

Please specify who these people are who express "outright hatred" for Mike.  What attacks do Mike's fans endure that are any worse than the attacks/challenges that Brian supporters have faced here, whether it's about recorded music, concerts, whatever?

As I said before, I've never seen a death threat against Mike here, yet I just saw one against me - most of us, I guess - by some disingenuous semi-comedian (Pickle Brothers, anyone?) for posting a challenge to the little whiner's intentions.  I think he's proven my point about why he was here.

It's not just specifically Mike's fans who get attacked.  Debbie, you always go on the offensive anytime a fan posts a review of a Brian show who says things like "Brian seemed out of it,"  "Brian wasn't as engaged as one show or another,"  or "Brian's vocals were off this particular night" regardless of the fact that said poster may be posting a positive review of the concert, you harp on the one criticism and accuse that person of "not getting it."  Debbie, you have a unique insight into the world of the Beach Boys, but instead of sharing your knowledge with fans, you seem to be more interested in putting them down.  

I didn't mention anything about death threats, and I'm not speaking specifically about Ian's comments.  I'm just speaking specifically to the root of the issue most people seem to have with this Board.  

As I'm sure you know, I'm on this board as well as Brian's Board, and the Pet Sounds Board.  On both the BW Board and the PS Board, it seems fans can disagree and keep it civil, but that doesn't seem to be the case here.  

I'm not particularly interested in putting one side against another because, shouldn't we all be on the same side?  Aren't we all Beach Boys fans at the end of the day?  Regardless of whether or not we put Love You in our top three albums.  Or enjoy listening to Kokomo on a summer day.  Or don't much care of the No Pier Pressure album.   Or enjoy seeing Brian's band more than Mike's, or vice versa.  Or pine for another C50 style reunion.  

I do point out to people that certain gestures and facial expressions of Brian's don't mean what they think when he's onstage.  I thought that was offering insights on how to "get" Brian.  Apparently not?  I didn't realize that I was "going on the offensive."  

I did point out that uneven vocals in live shows may have a lot to do with NOT using vocal processing when performing onstage.  Brian has, oddly, been accused of vocal processing at the same time that he's accused of being "uneven."  I found that hypocritical from Mike's fans when some videos I've seen online of Mike's band (apparently live?) certainly reek of those tools.  I thought maybe it was something to do with the poster adding this until Stephen Desper - a man I used to love watch working the board both in the studio and at BB concerts - came away from an M&B concert with the conclusion that this was what Mike's band was doing at a fairly recent show.  And he posted it here and I appreciated his honest clarification of what I was hearing.

Does that make me a "Mike hater?"  Seriously, I'd like to know.

Believe it or not, I talk to "both sides" as well.  I just despise lies and hypocrisy and it shows, I guess.  I do try to educate, and I guess some sensitive types get their feelings hurt. It wasn't my intention.  I just don't know how fragile some people are or aren't.

I know you weren't the one to claim death threats against Mike.  That would have been Mike's SS online attorney who was attempting to derail, yet another thread.

But I just had a death threat launched against me.  Having that idiot call me an "arsehole" is something I took as a compliment.  I'm glad I got under his thin skin.  Should I be ignoring that because, you know, we fans all have to get along.

Debbie, you may have been trying to offer insights at how to better enjoy a Brian Wilson concert, but it doesn't often come out that way.  I'm just paraphrasing here.  But I've seen you address such posters saying things to the likes of "this is BS" or "why can't you stop complaining and enjoy" to that effect.  Maybe if you used a little more tact, you can actually help out some fans who're new to the fold, and maybe not quite aware of Brian's tenancies on the stage. 

I never said you were a Mike hater, and there you are, getting defensive.  I'm just trying to have a dialog. 

[KDS]

TBH I think that fans respond in kind. So if there is a band which has factions and divisions, that is mirrored in the fan base.

There may be a division between fans when a band is fractured, but as I said I've never seen it with as much venom. 

[HeyJude]

I would, as objectively and humbly as possible, suggest that if you joined the board in the last year or so and may not have experienced much or any of the first ten years of this board, I would say it may have been those no longer here that contributed heavily to the perceived problems on this board.

Just because another board was created with a very small pool of members/posters, still in the "new relationship" phase, and there aren't fights breaking out left and right, it doesn't mean the people on *that* board had nothing to do with the problems that led them to their new board.

What I don't understand is the continued references to this board on the new board. Even when people there post the reasons they like the new board, they have to mention *not* just things they like about the new board, but reference *this* board. Ironically, it reminds me a bit of when Mike is asked why he has maintained his health, and rather than say what he *is* doing and has done (living a healthy lifestyle, etc.), he has to instead mention the bad things the Wilsons did that he *didn't* do.

[guitarfool2002]

TBH I think that fans respond in kind. So if there is a band which has factions and divisions, that is mirrored in the fan base.

There may be a division between fans when a band is fractured, but as I said I've never seen it with as much venom. 

I'm guessing you never saw the "Cab Board", "Male Ego" board, "Shut Down", "The Smile Shop", etc in their heyday?

The myth that everyone got along and all was peace love and flowers until this board came along is a load of bull. Ask those who were there and maybe those who were banned from those forums too, KDS.

[CenturyDeprived]

The "payroll" stuff gets way too muddy, because I think sometimes it's meant a bit more figuratively.

I tend to doubt much of anyone literally puts fans on the payroll, like actually paying them money, to say nice things about them (and/or attack the "opposition").

It's a much more subtle, muddy situation. It's more like there is a very small number of people who are not objective because of perks or simply out of being in the vicinity of one particular member of the group.

If someone gets free tickets or free backstage passes all the time, and/or gets other stuff comped by, let's say Mike, and they also regularly defend Mike (sometimes against pretty indefensible stuff) and also tend to, say, criticize Brian more, I would question that person's objectivity. It doesn't mean they're literally "on the payroll."

Even muddier is the seeming "objective" fan or journalist who only has regular contact with one member. So someone who is, let's say for example, on the outs with Brian's "camp" but regularly talks to Mike and people in Mike's camp, who gets backstage passes and whatnot, they get all of their information and "intel" from one source. They may either turn their blinders on or genuinely (and naively) believe what they're "hearing" is the full truth and act accordingly. They talk to Mike, Mike's nice to them. Maybe they hear a bunch of negative stuff about Brian and Brian's camp when they run in those circles. So then maybe some stuff that reflects pretty negatively on Mike is ignored, and things that might reflect negatively on Brian (or Al) are highlighted.

There are plenty (in fact most) of people on this board who are fans and nothing more, never talk to any insiders or anyone from any "camps."

But there are folks who *do* talk to one, two, or all "sides." Some of those folks have their head screwed on straight and can remain analytical and objective as they take in all of this "intel" and information. Others, either through an agenda or opinion they already have, and/or because of the "input" they get from one "side", run with that and end up potentially compromising any objectivity by feeling the need to defend that "side."

The whole idea of "payroll" as a thing that actually happens shouldn't be *that* preposterous. Whether anyone thinks anything remotely of that nature has ever happened in regards to this band is one thing, but nobody should be naive enough to think that stuff never happens in the entertainment industry or with politicians.

[KDS]

TBH I think that fans respond in kind. So if there is a band which has factions and divisions, that is mirrored in the fan base.

There may be a division between fans when a band is fractured, but as I said I've never seen it with as much venom. 

I'm guessing you never saw the "Cab Board", "Male Ego" board, "Shut Down", "The Smile Shop", etc in their heyday?

The myth that everyone got along and all was peace love and flowers until this board came along is a load of bull. Ask those who were there and maybe those who were banned from those forums too, KDS.

I was not on those boards, so I can't really speak for them.  I can only speak for the three I've been on.  I'll admit, I'm a fairly recent convert to The Beach Boys universe.  But, I'm also a music geek who has been participating in music related forums and social media pages since I had dial up internet.  

And, as I've pointed out, I've not seen a board for any band, at any time, that has as much conflict as this one.  

Here, it seems like people are not allowed to have an opinion unless it conforms to one side.  And trolling is tolerated if it conforms to that side.  

[HeyJude]

The thing too is that when someone is accused of "being on the payroll" and immediately makes some joke about how they're "still waiting for a check in the mail" or something, *that's* why I think that, if the assertion is that someone is advocating for a "side" because of some sort of influence or perk, it has to be specified.

When someone says they're not getting checks in the mail, that doesn't address what other perks or influence may exist.

[KDS]

The thing too is that when someone is accused of "being on the payroll" and immediately makes some joke about how they're "still waiting for a check in the mail" or something, *that's* why I think that, if the assertion is that someone is advocating for a "side" because of some sort of influence or perk, it has to be specified.

When someone says they're not getting checks in the mail, that doesn't address what other perks or influence may exist.

I think when one says they're waiting for their check, they're addressing the ridiculousness of the accusation. 

[CenturyDeprived]

The thing too is that when someone is accused of "being on the payroll" and immediately makes some joke about how they're "still waiting for a check in the mail" or something, *that's* why I think that, if the assertion is that someone is advocating for a "side" because of some sort of influence or perk, it has to be specified.

When someone says they're not getting checks in the mail, that doesn't address what other perks or influence may exist.

I think when one says they're waiting for their check, they're addressing the ridiculousness of the accusation.  

I find it funny that it just so happens that the people who dodge the payroll question directly, or who don't address any other perks which may exist, just happen to be the people who dodge various questions (unrelated to "payroll") the most on this board. As in dodging a question in the middle of a back-and-forth conversation (again, unrelated to "payroll"). This is super rude and infuriating during a conversation supposedly between two mature adults.

And I only really see that happen from people from 1 side of the BB political spectrum (admittedly only a few people from that side do this dodging to that degree).  Why do you think that is? It's not an accident.

And I think the reason for this is because they *know* in their hearts that some things cannot be defended, but they are too stubborn to admit it for some strange reason - which again, begs the question of them potentially being incentivized.  And the worst part is - they won't even address the fact that they dodge questions. They dodge the questions about dodging questions. It's preposterous. THIS is the type of behavior which helps contribute to boards imploding. Because when someone has made an inarguable point, and someone else refuses to admit it... 

[guitarfool2002]

TBH I think that fans respond in kind. So if there is a band which has factions and divisions, that is mirrored in the fan base.

There may be a division between fans when a band is fractured, but as I said I've never seen it with as much venom. 

I'm guessing you never saw the "Cab Board", "Male Ego" board, "Shut Down", "The Smile Shop", etc in their heyday?

The myth that everyone got along and all was peace love and flowers until this board came along is a load of bull. Ask those who were there and maybe those who were banned from those forums too, KDS.

I was not on those boards, so I can't really speak for them.  I can only speak for the three I've been on.  I'll admit, I'm a fairly recent convert to The Beach Boys universe.  But, I'm also a music geek who has been participating in music related forums and social media pages since I had dial up internet.  

And, as I've pointed out, I've not seen a board for any band, at any time, that has as much conflict as this one.

Here, it seems like people are not allowed to have an opinion unless it conforms to one side.  And trolling is tolerated if it conforms to that side.  

And your statement in bold is exactly what you're missing by making these overreaching comments about the boards. If you don't know the history, if you don't have the perspective or context, you don't know what preceded this board and who was involved (and banned) from some of those boards that you've never seen. Consider how many of the "conflicts" were the same actors doing and saying similar things a decade prior to you becoming a fan. It's a shame those boards collapsed and took their archives with them, it gave absolution and whitewash by default. Maybe you'd be able to see more of the background first before judging this or any other board as you've been doing.

It doesn't develop in a vacuum.

[Debbie KL]

Iain Lee comments on the Smiley Smile board at 45:15 into the video. Published June 15th, Richard Herring's Leicester Square Theatre Podcast - with Iain Lee #101.

"I'd kill everybody on that board. Everybody, without shadow of a doubt, yeah."

https://youtu.be/fp8a_G6YsnA?t=45m15s

Twitter today:



'This place [Pet Sounds forum] seems nicer'? Ignorance is bliss. Instead of writing off all of those who dislike Mike Love, perhaps he should try to find out why. But if he has read the book and still doesn't know, I suppose there's no hope for him.

I don't think it's so much the dislike of Mike Love that he finds troubling. 

But the outright, hatred towards Mike that has a tendency to derail music based threads.  Or the attacks on posters who might dare to defend Mike, write something positive about a Mike show, or say something negative about a Brian Wilson song, album, or concert. 

I know there's a lot that Mike has done to make people dislike him.  But the blind hatred to the point where some people want to completely dismiss any positive contribution to The Beach Boys makes no sense to me. 

There are far worse people who get far less crap from their fans than Mike Love. 

Please specify who these people are who express "outright hatred" for Mike.  What attacks do Mike's fans endure that are any worse than the attacks/challenges that Brian supporters have faced here, whether it's about recorded music, concerts, whatever?

As I said before, I've never seen a death threat against Mike here, yet I just saw one against me - most of us, I guess - by some disingenuous semi-comedian (Pickle Brothers, anyone?) for posting a challenge to the little whiner's intentions.  I think he's proven my point about why he was here.

It's not just specifically Mike's fans who get attacked.  Debbie, you always go on the offensive anytime a fan posts a review of a Brian show who says things like "Brian seemed out of it,"  "Brian wasn't as engaged as one show or another,"  or "Brian's vocals were off this particular night" regardless of the fact that said poster may be posting a positive review of the concert, you harp on the one criticism and accuse that person of "not getting it."  Debbie, you have a unique insight into the world of the Beach Boys, but instead of sharing your knowledge with fans, you seem to be more interested in putting them down.  

I didn't mention anything about death threats, and I'm not speaking specifically about Ian's comments.  I'm just speaking specifically to the root of the issue most people seem to have with this Board.  

As I'm sure you know, I'm on this board as well as Brian's Board, and the Pet Sounds Board.  On both the BW Board and the PS Board, it seems fans can disagree and keep it civil, but that doesn't seem to be the case here.  

I'm not particularly interested in putting one side against another because, shouldn't we all be on the same side?  Aren't we all Beach Boys fans at the end of the day?  Regardless of whether or not we put Love You in our top three albums.  Or enjoy listening to Kokomo on a summer day.  Or don't much care of the No Pier Pressure album.   Or enjoy seeing Brian's band more than Mike's, or vice versa.  Or pine for another C50 style reunion.  

I do point out to people that certain gestures and facial expressions of Brian's don't mean what they think when he's onstage.  I thought that was offering insights on how to "get" Brian.  Apparently not?  I didn't realize that I was "going on the offensive."  

I did point out that uneven vocals in live shows may have a lot to do with NOT using vocal processing when performing onstage.  Brian has, oddly, been accused of vocal processing at the same time that he's accused of being "uneven."  I found that hypocritical from Mike's fans when some videos I've seen online of Mike's band (apparently live?) certainly reek of those tools.  I thought maybe it was something to do with the poster adding this until Stephen Desper - a man I used to love watch working the board both in the studio and at BB concerts - came away from an M&B concert with the conclusion that this was what Mike's band was doing at a fairly recent show.  And he posted it here and I appreciated his honest clarification of what I was hearing.

Does that make me a "Mike hater?"  Seriously, I'd like to know.

Believe it or not, I talk to "both sides" as well.  I just despise lies and hypocrisy and it shows, I guess.  I do try to educate, and I guess some sensitive types get their feelings hurt. It wasn't my intention.  I just don't know how fragile some people are or aren't.

I know you weren't the one to claim death threats against Mike.  That would have been Mike's SS online attorney who was attempting to derail, yet another thread.

But I just had a death threat launched against me.  Having that idiot call me an "arsehole" is something I took as a compliment.  I'm glad I got under his thin skin.  Should I be ignoring that because, you know, we fans all have to get along.

Debbie, you may have been trying to offer insights at how to better enjoy a Brian Wilson concert, but it doesn't often come out that way.  I'm just paraphrasing here.  But I've seen you address such posters saying things to the likes of "this is BS" or "why can't you stop complaining and enjoy" to that effect.  Maybe if you used a little more tact, you can actually help out some fans who're new to the fold, and maybe not quite aware of Brian's tenancies on the stage. 

I never said you were a Mike hater, and there you are, getting defensive.  I'm just trying to have a dialog. 

I didn't know that I was getting defensive about the "Mike hater" question.  I thought I was simply asking a question.  Please point out my defensiveness in that question.

I do find it almost entertaining, but not quite, that you keep accusing me of being aggressive in defending Brian, when that's essentially what you do for Mike both here and on BW under the veil of being impartial.  I don't have a problem with that as long as you can get away with it.  But you keep trying to characterize me (and pretty much any other fan of Brian's) as aggressive, condescending, etc.  We're pretty open about our preferences.  I don't think that makes a person unfair.  I thinks it makes us more transparent.  I also don't think insisting on being impartial makes that a reality.

Being accused of being defensive for asking a simple question strikes me as a bit odd.  Was that your answer as to who the Mike haters are?  I'd still like to know who you happen to be referencing.  If it's not me, who are you specifying?