Tony Asher guests with Mike, Bruce and Dave

[drbeachboy]

Only a PR loss here. I don't think outside folk think like we do in here. I think the Sheriff has it more like it will actually go down.

[HeyJude]

And should be "guests" for their own potential reunion? Absolutely absurd.  

Not to derail the thread, but this is essentially what Al has been asked to do at least twice in the past (early 2011 and then the attempted Jones Beach show last year); be a one-time “guest” in his own band. If Mike feels *that* is okay, then it wouldn’t be out of line to ask Mike to be a “guest” at a Beach Boys or Brian Wilson presentation either.

I don’t think that makes any sense personally (and I can’t envision Mike going for such a thing anyway). It would be absurd to have a “Beach Boys” show and then invite Mike on for only select songs, or only invite him to a show here or there. Mike just doesn’t apparently feel this is the case when it comes to Al Jardine (and David Marks for that matter).

[cant wait]

yes, Sheriff does have the most balanced and likely scenario.

yet a not inconceivable close second could be a Celebration (like50) but now it would be

BB55 with PS50 opening the concert(s)

[SMiLE Brian]

Sounds like Mike wants to flood the market once again so BW's pet sounds tour doesn't do as well. Mike has an unfair advantage since he can bill his solo group as the BBs.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Having trouble deciding which is the most unseemly yet amusing: the trolls digging themselves an ever deeper hole (I hear Rick Wakeman is basing his next album on them...) or people presented with the most anorexic of evidence and jumping to ever more, and more increasingly inane, conclusions that you can shake a PS50 shaped stick at.

Fact - it's been stated that Brian's final European tour next year will celebrate Pet Sounds...

Fact - Tony Asher was invited by Mike to attend a private show, and accepted...

Fact - there was some kind of meeting afterwards...

Fact - them's all the facts, everything else is conjecture. Or to some, conspiracy.

What did Mike ask Tony to do - write some new fun/sun/cars/girls lyrics for, say, "You Still Believe In Me" ?  You heard it here first, folks !  

It is to laugh...

Me personally, I'd love to hear The Beach Boys (C50 edition) present and PS50 event: that would be very, very special and a perfect way to close the book, especially if the final song was "Good Vibrations"... but failing that, the notion of having two separate presentations is beginning to grow on me. Contrast and compare. Everybody wins. Except my bank balance.

Andrew, please stop making sense.

Bad habit of mine. Sorry.

[Steve Latshaw]

<<I am also hoping someone will eventually share what exactly was Tony's participation.  Thanks in advance.>>

Ditto.

[HeyJude]

I think it’s just as likely Mike and Tony talked about, say, Tony giving an interview for Mike’s autobiography or something.

I can’t think particularly of what role Tony would play in a PS tour (in any iteration as far as band lineup), other than writing a bit for a tour program or something, or just being there on opening night or something.

[SMiLE Brian]

Hey he can probably sing better than Mike Love's nasal whine.

[Doo Dah]

Can't see two competing versons of 'Sounds. That might make sense in a 'chinese buffet kind of way', but it utterly confuses the market.

Either Brian solo, or surprise surprise, they get it together. This one time only (says Jardine).

Personally, I'm a little Pet Sounded out, but Brian would do it justice. Mike would not. Don't need to hear about it being performed in a bar band arrangement.

[startBBtoday]

I realize I'm just feeding the trolls right now, but 87.5 percent of this so-called "bar band" has been good enough for Brian Wilson, either solo or part of the C50 lineup.

Mike Love hatred is sad in general, but it becomes pathetic, misguided and contradictory when the Beach Boys touring band members are caught in the crossfire.

[Doo Dah]

I realize I'm just feeding the trolls right now, but 87.5 percent of this so-called "bar band" has been good enough for Brian Wilson, either solo or part of the C50 lineup.

Mike Love hatred is sad in general, but it becomes pathetic, misguided and contradictory when the Beach Boys touring band members are caught in the crossfire.

a) the musical arrangements of one against the other
b) the instruments involved (real vs. prefab synth patch)
c) ergo - the sheer numbers of personnel


You could call it hatred, and I could cop to that at times, but ultimately there is a world of difference between what I saw two weeks ago in Detroit and the half-baked tripe I regularly see (via youtube) of the mother ship. Let's get real here...there's a difference. But hey...two big Bud Lights later, and you may not know the difference.

[SMiLE Brian]

Exactly doo dah.  It's a bar band bordering on cover band with only one original member.

[chaki]

the players might be the same but the methods are different. do you want to hear an actual ondes martenot on good vibrations or a shitty yamaha synth preset? do you want to hear an actual clarinet on god only knows or some crap midi setting?

whoops xpost.. what doo dah said.

[startBBtoday]

I realize I'm just feeding the trolls right now, but 87.5 percent of this so-called "bar band" has been good enough for Brian Wilson, either solo or part of the C50 lineup.

Mike Love hatred is sad in general, but it becomes pathetic, misguided and contradictory when the Beach Boys touring band members are caught in the crossfire.

a) the musical arrangements of one against the other
b) the instruments involved (real vs. prefab synth patch)
c) ergo - the sheer numbers of personnel


You could call it hatred, and I could cop to that at times, but ultimately there is a world of difference between what I saw two weeks ago in Detroit and the half-baked tripe I regularly see (via youtube) of the mother ship. Let's get real here...there's a difference. But hey...two big Bud Lights later, and you may not know the difference.

I'd tell you to go see the the licensed touring group live, because it likely would change your mind from what you've seen from an iPhone camera, but it's clear you don't have the open mind.

I've yet to see a review on this board from someone who came away from an M+B show disappointed.

After Carl died, I admit I had no interest in seeing the licensed group live. Then they played a free concert in my area years ago, I went, and they did the music justice. I was so impressed with Scott Totten and John Cowsill during the C50 tour that I saw the licensed group in 2013 and 2014. They're a great band, and it's disrespectful to call them a bar band unless you've seen them live.

[startBBtoday]

the players might be the same but the methods are different. do you want to hear an actual ondes martenot on good vibrations or a shitty yamaha synth preset? do you want to hear an actual clarinet on god only knows or some crap midi setting?

whoops xpost.. what doo dah said.

So, the Beach Boys have been a bar band during most of their touring existence? Who exactly was playing the clarinet from 1966 to 1998?

[Andrew G. Doe]

You could call it hatred, and I could cop to that at times, but ultimately there is a world of difference between what I saw two weeks ago in Detroit and the half-baked tripe I regularly see (via youtube) of the mother ship.

I've been to BW shows that left me slack-jawed with wonder, weeping with sheer joy & love, or both. I've seen youtube footage of BW shows that have left me wondering why he bothers if that's the best he can do. Been to M&B gigs that were in every way deeply satisfying, and seen audience footage that's made me wince. Point being, you're there, you're immersed in the event... on youtube, you're detatched, more critical, less immersed. When anyone says "oh, I've seen [insert your artist of choice here] lots of times on youtube and they're rubbish", their opinion is, if not invalid then at least severely compromised. Remember the Grammys in 2012 ? The TV feed sounded like sh*t, barely like the band, yet in the hall I'm reliably informed the live sound was roughly 1000% better (as C50 proved).

But, of course, you can't debate sensibly with a closed mind. Which is why I appreciate the likes of Hey Jude and sweetdudejim - they're critical, but can articulate why, and are prepared to listen to an opposing POV, and debate sensibly, as opposed to the small cadre of sputtering trolls with the limited viewpoint and even more limited vocabulary. Keep digging that hole, you'll start hearing Mandarin soon.  

Some "fans" don't know how much they don't know. Scary.

[SMiLE Brian]

I realize I'm just feeding the trolls right now, but 87.5 percent of this so-called "bar band" has been good enough for Brian Wilson, either solo or part of the C50 lineup.

Mike Love hatred is sad in general, but it becomes pathetic, misguided and contradictory when the Beach Boys touring band members are caught in the crossfire.

a) the musical arrangements of one against the other
b) the instruments involved (real vs. prefab synth patch)
c) ergo - the sheer numbers of personnel


You could call it hatred, and I could cop to that at times, but ultimately there is a world of difference between what I saw two weeks ago in Detroit and the half-baked tripe I regularly see (via youtube) of the mother ship. Let's get real here...there's a difference. But hey...two big Bud Lights later, and you may not know the difference.

didn't you see M&B live recently as well like I did in 2011?  They were crap live compared to the BW band/C50 band.

[cant wait]

have seen BB 3X in 2015 so far; i will be attending again in Aug & Oct 2015 for a total of 5X.
the band is FAR BETTER than in 2014.

saw Brian, Al, & Blondie et al 2 wks ago; it was fantastic.

[chaki]

the players might be the same but the methods are different. do you want to hear an actual ondes martenot on good vibrations or a shitty yamaha synth preset? do you want to hear an actual clarinet on god only knows or some crap midi setting?

whoops xpost.. what doo dah said.

So, the Beach Boys have been a bar band during most of their touring existence? Who exactly was playing the clarinet from 1966 to 1998?

yah i duno what your point is. the bb's always had horn sections in the 60s/70s and even Mike Love himself played the ondes during the Blondie/Ricky era!!!

[startBBtoday]

the players might be the same but the methods are different. do you want to hear an actual ondes martenot on good vibrations or a shitty yamaha synth preset? do you want to hear an actual clarinet on god only knows or some crap midi setting?

whoops xpost.. what doo dah said.

So, the Beach Boys have been a bar band during most of their touring existence? Who exactly was playing the clarinet from 1966 to 1998?

yah i duno what your point is. the bb's always had horn sections in the 60s/70s and even Mike Love himself played the ondes during the Blondie/Ricky era!!!

My point is having a musician to play every instrument to perfectly replicate a Beach Boys recording is a Brian Wilson thing and has never been a Beach Boys thing.

[filledeplage]

the players might be the same but the methods are different. do you want to hear an actual ondes martenot on good vibrations or a shitty yamaha synth preset? do you want to hear an actual clarinet on god only knows or some crap midi setting?

whoops xpost.. what doo dah said.

So, the Beach Boys have been a bar band during most of their touring existence? Who exactly was playing the clarinet from 1966 to 1998?

yah i duno what your point is. the bb's always had horn sections in the 60s/70s and even Mike Love himself played the ondes during the Blondie/Ricky era!!!

Charles Lloyd, Ron Brown...think they did woodwinds.

Calling the touring band a bar band is a joke.

From time to time they have had many other supporting musicians.  

[filledeplage]

I realize I'm just feeding the trolls right now, but 87.5 percent of this so-called "bar band" has been good enough for Brian Wilson, either solo or part of the C50 lineup.

Mike Love hatred is sad in general, but it becomes pathetic, misguided and contradictory when the Beach Boys touring band members are caught in the crossfire.

a) the musical arrangements of one against the other
b) the instruments involved (real vs. prefab synth patch)
c) ergo - the sheer numbers of personnel


You could call it hatred, and I could cop to that at times, but ultimately there is a world of difference between what I saw two weeks ago in Detroit and the half-baked tripe I regularly see (via youtube) of the mother ship. Let's get real here...there's a difference. But hey...two big Bud Lights later, and you may not know the difference.

didn't you see M&B live recently as well like I did in 2011?  They were crap live compared to the BW band/C50 band.

2011 is four years ago. 

[Ang Jones]

Geez louise! One question about this show with Tony Asher and already we've got people on here claiming Mike is planning a secret "Pet Sounds" tour to compete with Brian and he's dragging Tony Asher along with him. I'm guessing VDP and Carol Kaye will be there too, y'know, to make the ultimate anti-Brian trifecta.

This board is priceless.  

A little bit more complicated than that though, isn't it? We hear Tony Asher appeared on stage with M&B's BBs and then someone posts that there was a meeting between Tony Asher and the Beach Boys, reason unknown. That produced two reactions, not one. Some thought it might indicate Mike wanted to present a 50 Years of Pet Sounds Tour and try to steal Brian's thunder and some thought it was a sign that there might be - yippee! -  another reunion. If you're going to mock those who suspect Mike of trying to out manoeuvre his cousin of over reaction you must also criticise those who immediately assume it means a reunion of the same thing because there is no definite proof of either situation.

However, let's see, Mike acquired two ex members of Brian's band, presumably having to let Randell Kirsch go so as to replace with Brian Eichenberger, played the RAH and used publicity shots showing the C50 line up with a disclaimer in the small print,  added Surf's Up and Til I Die to the set, though previously had said negative things about each of these. Is it so hard to believe that Mike feels competitive towards his cousin?

Pet Sounds was of course a Beach Boys' album, though nearly all of the music was written by Brian and most of the lyrics by Tony Asher. Even in Love and Mercy, the Mike Love character accuses Brian of using the Beach Boys as guest vocalists. Caroline No, was, of course, a BW song. Whatever Mike says now, at the time he called it Brian's (not the Beach Boys') ego music.

But if it is BRIAN'S last European tour, I don't think it is appropriate to suddenly be another reunion. Brian was part of the Beach Boys as a touring band for several years and has always been the source of most of the music so perhaps a guest appearance - doing a few songs together at the end of the show. I hope it goes no further than that.

Please read Mike's page. It was not a public show.  It was a private performance.  Asher has done plenty of reputable work for many bands, for decades, and in the advertising business, apart from his lyrics on some Pet Sounds.  (And the Beach Boys could not be in two places at one time, in 65-66. They were on the road, touring the four corners of the earth.) Asher was not the exclusive lyricist.  It isn't a reasonable inference from a private performance.  

The suggestion of "appropriateness" of a reunion is utterly inappropriate, in my opinion.  They are grown men, fully capable of making business decisions, and self-determining the terms and extent, of a potential PS 50 reunion tour.  They are members of the same music corporation for close to 50 years.

Those songs, including Surf's Up were performed live, for the promotion of the eponymous album and there are setlists to support that. Brian wasn't touring with them.  They were BB setlist inclusions.  Now they shouldn't be allowed to play their own back-catalogue? And should be "guests" for their own potential reunion? Absolutely absurd.  Pet Sounds was a BB LP.  Brian has a Brian Wilson Pet Sounds Live CD.  But, ultimately it is their decision.

Of course the Beach Boys couldn't be in two places at once but it remains true that Pet Sounds was the concept of Brian Wilson and  with lyrics mainly by Tony Asher. This doesn't mean that the Beach Boys are not allowed to play tracks from it or all of it but I think it is clear who has the greater claim to it -THE COMPOSER.

The meeting was the bit that made several suspicious, not just the performance.

The UK fans were told when the  cancellation of the 2015 tour was announced, that Brian would be doing his last European tour in 2016 when he hoped his fans would help him celebrate Pet Sounds. BRIAN'S last European tour. That is , or IMO, SHOULD BE, about Brian Wilson. Suddenly it's the PS 50. This was called, of course, a POSTPONEMENT. We weren't promised a reunion in 2015 - we signed up for BRIAN.

Of course they are grown men and can make the decision themselves. After what happened last time, I hope that Brian has no problems making the decision not to go down this road again.

Ang - a cancelled tour is a huge blow.  Been there, within hours of the concert.  I've developed a "doubting Thomas" philosophy. When I see them, I believe it.  These tours can be tricky.  Someone will correct me of course, but I'm thinking we, in the US, didn't get a real Gershwin tour, and it went overseas.  Sometimes one locale is luckier than another.  

Why would two industry professionals seeing each other be news?  And why are people jumping to conclusions? Mike invites all kinds of people to guest and perform (Lulu) or just walk on for Barbara Ann.  It doesn't look like such a big deal to me.  

I'm looking at the Pet Sounds track list credits and see two instrumentals: Lets Go Away for Awhile and Pet Sounds. (No lyricist)

Then, Sloop is a folk song.  Arr. Brian at Al's behest.

That leaves ten.

WIBN Mike is listed.
I Know there's and Answer - Mike is listed.
I'm Waiting for the Day - Brian/ Mike - heard this during the Beck tour.  Delightful.

Wilson/Asher:
You Still Believe in Me
That's Not Me
Don't Talk
God Only Knows
Here Today
I Just Wasn't Made for these Times
Caroline, No

So seven of thirteen appear to be Wilson/ Asher

That is about half of Pet Sounds.  So there appears to have been considerable BB involvement and listening to the Pet Sounds sessions, shows some of the changes and stages the project took, while in progress.

We, as fans can just wait it out and see what happens...and I always remember that Brian wrote for the "voices" of the BB's, his co-founders and, ultimate business partners, including his brothers Dennis and Carl.

WIBN - of which Tony Asher claimed Mike couldn't possibly have done much because Tony wrote the lyrics at his own home and Mike didn't 'and I pray still doesn't' have the number. Mike allegedly came up with 'Goodnight baby, sleep tight baby'.  The composition of at least three quarters of Pet Sounds had  NOTHING to do with Mike.

Brian wrote for the Beach Boys true but that was long ago and he has since written for others, others, who are younger and more able to make a good job of those songs today.

Well, whatever the percentage of the WIBN has been apportioned, Love still gets an authorship credit.  I wasn't there. And our math doesn't agree. I'm looking at about 57% or 7/13ths.

Younger does not equal a lifetime of proficiency and whose brains are hard-wired for 4-part harmony. And the fanbase may now include some more younger fans, but the knowledgeable core is comprised of baby boomers who are"contemporaries." 

And, I'd love to see The Beach Boys do Sail Away (which I love!) and The Right Time.  And maybe NPP songs were conceived with the BB's in Mind...weak pun intended.

Que sera, sera...

You cannot disallow the instrumentals - Brian still composed them. Sloop John B was not a BW composition but he arranged it. Mike wrote 6 words of WIBN, about 21 of  IKTAA and all of the WFTD lyric. One song and 27 words  - Mike was involved in the composition of just over one song lyric - one and a bit songs out of 13.

NPP conceived with BBs in mind? Well, who knows? Maybe the title No Pier Pressure was conceived with the Beach Boys in mind.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Geez louise! One question about this show with Tony Asher and already we've got people on here claiming Mike is planning a secret "Pet Sounds" tour to compete with Brian and he's dragging Tony Asher along with him. I'm guessing VDP and Carol Kaye will be there too, y'know, to make the ultimate anti-Brian trifecta.

This board is priceless. 

A little bit more complicated than that though, isn't it? We hear Tony Asher appeared on stage with M&B's BBs and then someone posts that there was a meeting between Tony Asher and the Beach Boys, reason unknown. That produced two reactions, not one. Some thought it might indicate Mike wanted to present a 50 Years of Pet Sounds Tour and try to steal Brian's thunder and some thought it was a sign that there might be - yippee! -  another reunion. If you're going to mock those who suspect Mike of trying to out manoeuvre his cousin of over reaction you must also criticise those who immediately assume it means a reunion of the same thing because there is no definite proof of either situation.

However, let's see, Mike acquired two ex members of Brian's band, presumably having to let Randell Kirsch go so as to replace with Brian Eichenberger, played the RAH and used publicity shots showing the C50 line up with a disclaimer in the small print,  added Surf's Up and Til I Die to the set, though previously had said negative things about each of these. Is it so hard to believe that Mike feels competitive towards his cousin?

Pet Sounds was of course a Beach Boys' album, though nearly all of the music was written by Brian and most of the lyrics by Tony Asher. Even in Love and Mercy, the Mike Love character accuses Brian of using the Beach Boys as guest vocalists. Caroline No, was, of course, a BW song. Whatever Mike says now, at the time he called it Brian's (not the Beach Boys') ego music.

But if it is BRIAN'S last European tour, I don't think it is appropriate to suddenly be another reunion. Brian was part of the Beach Boys as a touring band for several years and has always been the source of most of the music so perhaps a guest appearance - doing a few songs together at the end of the show. I hope it goes no further than that.

Please read Mike's page. It was not a public show.  It was a private performance.  Asher has done plenty of reputable work for many bands, for decades, and in the advertising business, apart from his lyrics on some Pet Sounds.  (And the Beach Boys could not be in two places at one time, in 65-66. They were on the road, touring the four corners of the earth.) Asher was not the exclusive lyricist.  It isn't a reasonable inference from a private performance. 

The suggestion of "appropriateness" of a reunion is utterly inappropriate, in my opinion.  They are grown men, fully capable of making business decisions, and self-determining the terms and extent, of a potential PS 50 reunion tour.  They are members of the same music corporation for close to 50 years.

Those songs, including Surf's Up were performed live, for the promotion of the eponymous album and there are setlists to support that. Brian wasn't touring with them.  They were BB setlist inclusions.  Now they shouldn't be allowed to play their own back-catalogue? And should be "guests" for their own potential reunion? Absolutely absurd.  Pet Sounds was a BB LP.  Brian has a Brian Wilson Pet Sounds Live CD.  But, ultimately it is their decision.

Of course the Beach Boys couldn't be in two places at once but it remains true that Pet Sounds was the concept of Brian Wilson and  with lyrics mainly by Tony Asher. This doesn't mean that the Beach Boys are not allowed to play tracks from it or all of it but I think it is clear who has the greater claim to it -THE COMPOSER.

The meeting was the bit that made several suspicious, not just the performance.

The UK fans were told when the  cancellation of the 2015 tour was announced, that Brian would be doing his last European tour in 2016 when he hoped his fans would help him celebrate Pet Sounds. BRIAN'S last European tour. That is , or IMO, SHOULD BE, about Brian Wilson. Suddenly it's the PS 50. This was called, of course, a POSTPONEMENT. We weren't promised a reunion in 2015 - we signed up for BRIAN.

Of course they are grown men and can make the decision themselves. After what happened last time, I hope that Brian has no problems making the decision not to go down this road again.

Ang - a cancelled tour is a huge blow.  Been there, within hours of the concert.  I've developed a "doubting Thomas" philosophy. When I see them, I believe it.  These tours can be tricky.  Someone will correct me of course, but I'm thinking we, in the US, didn't get a real Gershwin tour, and it went overseas.  Sometimes one locale is luckier than another. 

Why would two industry professionals seeing each other be news?  And why are people jumping to conclusions? Mike invites all kinds of people to guest and perform (Lulu) or just walk on for Barbara Ann.  It doesn't look like such a big deal to me. 

I'm looking at the Pet Sounds track list credits and see two instrumentals: Lets Go Away for Awhile and Pet Sounds. (No lyricist)

Then, Sloop is a folk song.  Arr. Brian at Al's behest.

That leaves ten.

WIBN Mike is listed.
I Know there's and Answer - Mike is listed.
I'm Waiting for the Day - Brian/ Mike - heard this during the Beck tour.  Delightful.

Wilson/Asher:
You Still Believe in Me
That's Not Me
Don't Talk
God Only Knows
Here Today
I Just Wasn't Made for these Times
Caroline, No

So seven of thirteen appear to be Wilson/ Asher

That is about half of Pet Sounds.  So there appears to have been considerable BB involvement and listening to the Pet Sounds sessions, shows some of the changes and stages the project took, while in progress.

We, as fans can just wait it out and see what happens...and I always remember that Brian wrote for the "voices" of the BB's, his co-founders and, ultimate business partners, including his brothers Dennis and Carl.

WIBN - of which Tony Asher claimed Mike couldn't possibly have done much because Tony wrote the lyrics at his own home and Mike didn't 'and I pray still doesn't' have the number. Mike allegedly came up with 'Goodnight baby, sleep tight baby'.  The composition of at least three quarters of Pet Sounds had  NOTHING to do with Mike.

Brian wrote for the Beach Boys true but that was long ago and he has since written for others, others, who are younger and more able to make a good job of those songs today.

Well, whatever the percentage of the WIBN has been apportioned, Love still gets an authorship credit.  I wasn't there. And our math doesn't agree. I'm looking at about 57% or 7/13ths.

Younger does not equal a lifetime of proficiency and whose brains are hard-wired for 4-part harmony. And the fanbase may now include some more younger fans, but the knowledgeable core is comprised of baby boomers who are"contemporaries." 

And, I'd love to see The Beach Boys do Sail Away (which I love!) and The Right Time.  And maybe NPP songs were conceived with the BB's in Mind...weak pun intended.

Que sera, sera...

You cannot disallow the instrumentals - Brian still composed them. Sloop John B was not a BW composition but he arranged it. Mike wrote 6 words of WIBN, about 21 of  IKTAA and all of the WFTD lyric. One song and 27 words  - Mike was involved in the composition of just over one song lyric - one and a bit songs out of 13.

NPP conceived with BBs in mind? Well, who knows? Maybe the title No Pier Pressure was conceived with the Beach Boys in mind.

Ummm...IWFTD was written in 1964, and the lyrics were mostly Brian's.

[SMiLE Brian]

I realize I'm just feeding the trolls right now, but 87.5 percent of this so-called "bar band" has been good enough for Brian Wilson, either solo or part of the C50 lineup.

Mike Love hatred is sad in general, but it becomes pathetic, misguided and contradictory when the Beach Boys touring band members are caught in the crossfire.

a) the musical arrangements of one against the other
b) the instruments involved (real vs. prefab synth patch)
c) ergo - the sheer numbers of personnel


You could call it hatred, and I could cop to that at times, but ultimately there is a world of difference between what I saw two weeks ago in Detroit and the half-baked tripe I regularly see (via youtube) of the mother ship. Let's get real here...there's a difference. But hey...two big Bud Lights later, and you may not know the difference.

didn't you see M&B live recently as well like I did in 2011?  They were crap live compared to the BW band/C50 band.

2011 is four years ago. 

might be seeing M&B next month with friends!