Are Brian Wilson and Van Dyke Parks currently estranged?

[alf wiedersehen]

Best get used to it.

You're right. I mean, why should I care that this inane trend is eating the place I care about alive? I should just, like, ride the wave of apathy, duuuuuuuude.

[guitarfool2002]

Here's the thing, we don't know what potential record contracts were on the table for the BBs after "Kokomo"...We're probably a bit off-base to assume that there were none.  I wouldn't know obviously.  But unless you were in a BRI meeting at that time, neither would most of you.  Possibly someone has a good source?

My point was meaning having a recording contract as a source of income. Touring  probably made up a good portion of their income.

I have a good source, my own research and pocketful of useless trivia...

Seriously though, I mentioned this exact topic on the board a few weeks ago in this post, in this thread: http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,22638.msg534710.html#msg534710

To sum up, Kokomo was released on the Elektra label. The band had no label at that time, apart from Capitol holding the archival material. Elektra was the label for the Cocktail music and soundtrack, so they did the single release and related promotions for the film tied into the music. Bobby McFerrin did have a label, but he also got and benefited from the Elektra PR around the film and got the film's first #1 hit.

So Capitol got in to the party, and offered the band a deal with options Capitol could take or refuse. They wanted Kokomo. The band at the time basking in the glow of Kokomo hitting #1 in Fall 1988 was working up new material, in fact Bruce in an interview said he wanted another hit record, and didn't want to become part of a touring oldies revue. Al said Capitol was looking for three charting singles as part of the deal they gave the band. Capitol wanted both Kokomo on a Capitol album release to drive sales away from Elektra and onto Capitol, as well as what they thought would be follow-ups to the #1 single Kokomo.

That's where Still Cruisin came from going into 1989. It was on Capitol, but for whatever reasons there didn't seem to be the level of truly "new" original music as reports suggested the band had been busy recording on that album. It seems to have morphed into a pseudo-greatest hits hodgepodge of "Kokomo and Other Assorted One-Offs"...and Capitol never got the follow-up singles they had expected.

They also - If the timeline adds up - passed at the chance to release Summer In Paradise. In other words, they rejected it which could possibly have been part of their option in the deal that gave them Kokomo on Still Cruisin with their option to pick up the next album (SIP) or not. And they did not. Hence, "Brother Entertainment" a label no one had heard of released the SIP album. Affiliates of EMI picked it up a year later after it bombed in the US, in a remixed and reworked form specifically for the UK, and which also bombed in the UK in 1993.

So there was a deal with conditions, but for whatever reasons the band failed to do what was expected of them, despite reports of them actively writing and recording new music to follow up Kokomo. The deal basically died on the table after Still Cruisin, and that album did not seem to end up as the plans reported in the press just after Kokomo and the "new" Capitol deal had been enacted.

Capitol also wanted more to push with the CD releases of Pet Sounds, the two-fers, etc. They didn't get much of note from the band.

Again, it was the archival material, specifically Pet Sounds, some of the two-fers in that campaign, and the GV box set in 1993 that bailed them out yet again. But with all of that attention, really, really positive legacy-building type of attention, some things that could have happened to capitalize (no pun) on that spotlight got shot down by various band members and certain events. And instead Summer In Paradise, and other questionable PR moves (and live shows) were the face of the band in the present versus the archival "legend" type of attention that was really cooking in the early 90's.

It's a shame in some ways.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Best get used to it.

You're right. I mean, why should I care that this inane trend is eating the place I care about alive? I should just, like, ride the wave of apathy, duuuuuuuude.

Because my post was totally 100% serious and absolutely not meant to be humorous at all 

[cta]

Never work with family...particularly when you're not a member of it.

[drbeachboy]

Here's the thing, we don't know what potential record contracts were on the table for the BBs after "Kokomo"...We're probably a bit off-base to assume that there were none.  I wouldn't know obviously.  But unless you were in a BRI meeting at that time, neither would most of you.  Possibly someone has a good source?

My point was meaning having a recording contract as a source of income. Touring  probably made up a good portion of their income.

I have a good source, my own research and pocketful of useless trivia...

Seriously though, I mentioned this exact topic on the board a few weeks ago in this post, in this thread: http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,22638.msg534710.html#msg534710

To sum up, Kokomo was released on the Elektra label. The band had no label at that time, apart from Capitol holding the archival material. Elektra was the label for the Cocktail music and soundtrack, so they did the single release and related promotions for the film tied into the music. Bobby McFerrin did have a label, but he also got and benefited from the Elektra PR around the film and got the film's first #1 hit.

So Capitol got in to the party, and offered the band a deal with options Capitol could take or refuse. They wanted Kokomo. The band at the time basking in the glow of Kokomo hitting #1 in Fall 1988 was working up new material, in fact Bruce in an interview said he wanted another hit record, and didn't want to become part of a touring oldies revue. Al said Capitol was looking for three charting singles as part of the deal they gave the band. Capitol wanted both Kokomo on a Capitol album release to drive sales away from Elektra and onto Capitol, as well as what they thought would be follow-ups to the #1 single Kokomo.

That's where Still Cruisin came from going into 1989. It was on Capitol, but for whatever reasons there didn't seem to be the level of truly "new" original music as reports suggested the band had been busy recording on that album. It seems to have morphed into a pseudo-greatest hits hodgepodge of "Kokomo and Other Assorted One-Offs"...and Capitol never got the follow-up singles they had expected.

They also - If the timeline adds up - passed at the chance to release Summer In Paradise. In other words, they rejected it which could possibly have been part of their option in the deal that gave them Kokomo on Still Cruisin with their option to pick up the next album (SIP) or not. And they did not. Hence, "Brother Entertainment" a label no one had heard of released the SIP album. Affiliates of EMI picked it up a year later after it bombed in the US, in a remixed and reworked form specifically for the UK, and which also bombed in the UK in 1993.

So there was a deal with conditions, but for whatever reasons the band failed to do what was expected of them, despite reports of them actively writing and recording new music to follow up Kokomo. The deal basically died on the table after Still Cruisin, and that album did not seem to end up as the plans reported in the press just after Kokomo and the "new" Capitol deal had been enacted.

Capitol also wanted more to push with the CD releases of Pet Sounds, the two-fers, etc. They didn't get much of note from the band.

Again, it was the archival material, specifically Pet Sounds, some of the two-fers in that campaign, and the GV box set in 1993 that bailed them out yet again. But with all of that attention, really, really positive legacy-building type of attention, some things that could have happened to capitalize (no pun) on that spotlight got shot down by various band members and certain events. And instead Summer In Paradise, and other questionable PR moves (and live shows) were the face of the band in the present versus the archival "legend" type of attention that was really cooking in the early 90's.

It's a shame in some ways.

Thanks for that, and yes I had been following the other thread. This deal with Capitol income-wise, could not have been anything like the deal they received from CBS in 1977 or even the Reprise deal in 1969-1970. My whole point was that some folks here were complaining or putting a negative spin on all of the touring in that period. Touring really was their bread & butter, especially with no big recording deals during that period. That a lot of touring has been their MO for their whole career. Nothing unusual about it.

[MikestheGreatest!!]

Well, Capitol and the Boys got a hit album out of Still Cruisin, so lets not feel like either entity got taken.   The Boys did turn in a half an album of new material, so I guess those tracks could have been up for consideration as additional singles.  Wasn't one of the other tracks from Cruising also released as a single after the title track? Island Off Japan, or some such title?  Beats me, I never bought the thing anyway.  But still, yeah, a pretty lame-o release it was, with the second-half "these are songs that were in movies" narrative or conceit, which was of course silly nonsense.  I may remember Wouldn't It Be Nice was in Shampoo, but hardly ever think of that factoid when I am playing it.  In fact, that is one song I skip over with some frequency anymore....just heard it too many times.  I find it rather curious that it has been lauded so highly of late....not that it is not musically fine, just seems a little odd, even back in the day folks were saying GOK should have been the hit side over here.

[orange22]

whoops!

[The_Beach]

I Think its the same reason Brian Wilson was at odds with Mike Love, not getting Song credit, so now he is at odds with van Parks

[Bicyclerider]

What songs is Van Dyke not getting credit for?  With BWPS he was given credit for Wind Chimes and Wonderful.  I know of no other songs Van would claim as his.

I suspect a lot of the estrangement is the layers of people between Brian and Van Dyke, and the fact that he was written out of Love and Mercy.  In the old days Van could pick up a phone and call Brian or drop by the house.  Now meetings have to be approved and arranged.  Hard to maintain a relationship and clear up misunderstandings or hurt feelings that way.

[CenturyDeprived]

What songs is Van Dyke not getting credit for?  With BWPS he was given credit for Wind Chimes and Wonderful.  I know of no other songs Van would claim as his.

I suspect a lot of the estrangement is the layers of people between Brian and Van Dyke, and the fact that he was written out of Love and Mercy.  In the old days Van could pick up a phone and call Brian or drop by the house.  Now meetings have to be approved and arranged.  Hard to maintain a relationship and clear up misunderstandings or hurt feelings that way.

From what I'm gathering, it's something about wanting to be credited (in addition to lyrics) as a co-arranger of at least some of the music, and possibly being denied such crediting (and whatever monetary benefit that would entail). 

[Wirestone]

In the old days Van could pick up a phone and call Brian or drop by the house.  Now meetings have to be approved and arranged.

How do you know this to be true?

[bgas]

feelings, nothing more than feelings

[Bicyclerider]

In the old days Van could pick up a phone and call Brian or drop by the house.  Now meetings have to be approved and arranged.

How do you know this to be true?

I'm talking about in 1966-67 - and how I know is by the multiple accounts of that time by Brian, Van Dyke, the Vosse posse, press, etc.  how do I know that now meetings have to be approved and arranged?  Surely you know that Brian has handlers and Melinda and that access to Brian is controlled?  Mike and others (Jeff Beck et al) have complained about that very thing. 

[SMiLE Brian]

Who are the handlers?

[Paul J B]

Brian's "people" would be a better choice of word as there are people that assist him in his personal and professional life. I think when the word handlers is thrown out there, as it often is, it implies Brian is not permitted to live for himself and make his own choices. Well...even if there is a grain of truth to that, if you have been a lifelong fan of Brian's and the beach boys and don't understand why Brian in all likelyhood needs his people to be there for him then I don't know what else to say. Brian has been surrounded by good people these last couple of decades and that's a good thing.

L&M hammered it home that the 60's Brian was no longer here by the 80's. Well it's 2015. Brian is not sitting around the house waiting for a call from ANYBODY to collaborate with. So if anyone wishes to work with Brian, or Melinda or any other of Brian's people want to reach out to someone that Brian could do something cool with, and the only way that works is to go through said "people", then so be it. It's totally understandable.

[Wirestone]

In the old days Van could pick up a phone and call Brian or drop by the house.  Now meetings have to be approved and arranged.

How do you know this to be true?

I'm talking about in 1966-67 - and how I know is by the multiple accounts of that time by Brian, Van Dyke, the Vosse posse, press, etc.  how do I know that now meetings have to be approved and arranged?  Surely you know that Brian has handlers and Melinda and that access to Brian is controlled?  Mike and others (Jeff Beck et al) have complained about that very thing. 

Short version, as I expected: You don't know it to be true. Brian's friends are able to call him on the phone and drop by whenever they like. BW drives his own car, goes where he likes, and does what he pleases.

If Van isn't able to do that now, then that's perhaps because he's not Brian's friend now -- and hasn't been for 50 years.

[Bicyclerider]

In the old days Van could pick up a phone and call Brian or drop by the house.  Now meetings have to be approved and arranged.

Short version, as I expected: You don't know it to be true. Brian's friends are able to call him on the phone and drop by whenever they like. BW drives his own car, goes where he likes, and does what he pleases.

Equally short version.  You don't know what you just stated to be true, other than Brian does drive his own car.  Unless you are one of these friends that drops by when he likes and calls him when he wants . . . NOT.

[ontor pertawst]

We're on the handlers thing again? Yeesh. I guess it's hard not for some fans to build up this strange mental picture of the guy, and are inevitably disappointed when the reality doesn't match the Howard Hughes-ish fantasy!

[rab2591]

I'll just leave this quote here. Granted, it's by someone who actually knows what the hell they're talking about so I'm sure it'll be ignored.

If I am in Brian Wilson's chair, I am fed up hearing about my past drug issues, especially as I have not touched a recreational drug in over 35 years;

I am fed up with hearing about how my dead brothers, whom I think about every day, made poor lifestyle choices (drugs, alcohol, cigarettes)which lead to their early deaths ;

I am fed up with hearing about how controlled I am ; first by non existent handlers , and now by medicine prescribed by ,arguably some of the best doctors in the world.  

Here is how controlled Brian is.

I had dinner last Wed night with Brian and Melinda up in Beverly Glen. I called Brian and it went something like this: Me : " Hi Brian , how are you ?  Brian: "doing ok , how about you ? " Me : "Great ; I am in town , do you want to have dinner tonight ?" Brian:" yeah , great. Where do you want to go ? " Me: " You pick "  Brian:" ok , meet me at my house at 5:30 ". The three of us went to dinner in Beverly Glen; nice time. Brian was in good spirits ; we talked about the new album and upcoming tour.  All was good. They played me the final mix of "Last Song"; all in all the same kind of evening I have had with him for the last almost 20 years.  

My point ?  I find it difficult ,if not impossible, to believe that it is easier for me to see Brian Wilson than it is for Mike Love to see him . Mike has the number; 9 times out of 10 , Brian will usually answer. It's just not that complicated.

I found this going through Ray Lawlor's post history, mostly because I knew it was full of quotes battling the "handlers" myth. Sure enough I wasn't disappointed. Funny how this myth keeps trying to pop up even though it has been debunked time and time again. But some here refuse to face the facts.

[SMiLE Brian]

Great post by Ray Lawlor!

[MikestheGreatest!!]

It probably does get VD's goat that he is more musically sophisticated than Bri, yet is a lot poorer and did not have Brian's ability to write simple, catchy fare that performed well on the charts.  He probably knows he could not write simple successful songs like Brian either, and wonders how that "magic trick" was performed so often.

[The LEGENDARY OSD]

It probably does get VD's goat that he is more musically sophisticated than Bri, yet is a lot poorer and did not have Brian's ability to write simple, catchy fare that performed well on the charts.  He probably knows he could not write simple successful songs like Brian either, and wonders how that "magic trick" was performed so often.

     

[SMiLE Brian]

BW and VDP are too good collaborators to remain estranged....

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

It probably does get VD's goat that he is more musically sophisticated than Bri, yet is a lot poorer and did not have Brian's ability to write simple, catchy fare that performed well on the charts.  He probably knows he could not write simple successful songs like Brian either, and wonders how that "magic trick" was performed so often.

No disrespect to vdp but Song Cycle Damn near put me to sleep. Pet Sounds is beautiful. SMiLE is at least 10x as fantastic, no doubt due to vdp's brilliant lyrics and input. I think he needed a collaborator himself to tone his ideas down a bit and make them more relatable. SMiLE was a perfect meeting of the minds, Song Cycle tho is just too...idk how to put it...fancy? Regal? Pretentious? It lacks the fun and vibrance that made SMiLE relatively relatable and easy to listen to while still being very layered and arty.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Who are the handlers?

Who handles the handlers?