The Smiley Smile Message Board

On an old thread related to VDP, I saw references to Parks being upset with regards to TLOS. What exactly is the story there? Also, I wondered why there no contribution from him in TSS booklet. And, in recent interviews, his willingness to talk about Brian and Smile ranges from quiet reticence to barely-veiled frustration, though he never really goes into specifics.

It saddens me to think that two people who have, more often than not, been on the same creative wavelength are at odds; the story of their reunion on BWPS represents what I think is a nice contrast to all the miscommunication and bitterness that's evidence in all other things BBs.

So, what gives?

No one knows for sure. Or rather, those who do know for sure haven't said or aren't willing to say.

From what I've read of Van's recent comments, he seems disappointed to have not been more richly rewarded after such a long run in the business. One of his pre-requisites to rejoining the BWPS project was having his publishing rights restored to some songs his name had been taken off of through the years.

In other words, credits and fair compensation mean a lot to him (as they would to most of us, I imagine). One might assume that something broke down along those lines.

I just finished reading Priore's book, and I understood the implication of the passage to mean that his credits to "Wind Chimes" and "Wonderful" were going to be restored to him after he discussed it with Melinda and Brian. He did continue with the project, and attended the shows, after all.

Damn shame, if he was stiffed further

VDP had a very commendable reason for not writing an essay for the TSS box. I cant say what it is, because I was asked not to by the person who told me. Just know that there was no personal pettiness involved with that particular aspect of this whole mess. I have no idea why theyre on the outs now, but I think it's a terrible shame.

Regarding TLOS I read a quote (on a Spanish newspaper) that he was expecting it to be a collaboration between friends but it ended up being something entirely different (i.e. not having access to Brian).

Not saying that that part isn't true; however, I'd take a few of the things that you read in that book with a shaker of salt.

Does it have anything to do with objections raised by Mr. Positivity? Blink once for yes, twice for no.  :p

But, in all seriousness, it is a terrible shame.

This whole "not having access to Brian thing"; does it weird anybody else out that the first thing it brings to mind is the schemes of Landy? It leaves a bit of a bad taste in my mouth...

I follow Van Dyke's Twitter.  He mentions Beach Boys every now and then, especially SMiLE (which is understandable), and mentions of Brian are usually coupled with praise.  I don't get any ill feelings from him about Brian.

Well... the only real negativity I can recall seeing from his Twitter is about the environment.  But then again, 90% of his tweets are either replies to someone else, or somehow filled with seventeen simultaneous different topics despite the character limit.  He's definitely a word-smith.  His tweets can be blazingly hard to decipher.

Oh, you know how some people are.

VDP said that he hasn't spoken to Brian in a while apparently means they're enemies.

Brian says "The ocean scares me," which means obviously that Brian is afraid of water.

There's a little bit of...snarkiness sometimes.

@thevandykeparks  15m15 minutes ago
"Lover"--Les Paul.
He pioneered multi-tracking. He didn't have a publicist to call him a genius. It's self-evident. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=U3mJfbYKvBE&autoplay=1 …

But that doesn't mean they're estranged.

Didn't VDP publicly call Brian a "buffoon" not so long ago.

Yeah, I'd say they are estranged.

I think he used the term "buffoonary" in regards to some specific behavior/incident, which is different from calling someone a buffoon.

VDP was referring to Brian's antics during the recording of SMiLE -- you know, stuff like having the musicians wear fire helmets. Can be seen, in one mood, as charming eccentricity, in another mood as buffoonery. Or maybe just another word for "clowning around".

Whether VDP meant it negatively is in the eye of the beholder, I guess...

Specifically, he said he was 'victimized by Brian Wilson's buffoonery', which suggests he was feeling miffed at the time he said it, but then he didn't elaborate for the interviewer.

For TLOS, he wasn't allowed access to Brian while collaborating?  Sounds familiar.

He also tweeted at the time Loren Daro was posting here, supporting his viewpoint.

But he also said he was floored by Brian's choice of him as a favourite collaborator during one of the recent Q&As, and praised his Brian's own lyrics on Til I Die.

Not trying to be polemic here, but am I the only one here who gets the Landy vibe from Melinda/his handlers?

It kind of reminds me of Mick Jagger's experience with John and Yoko. When he was estranged from her, they were best friends and doing things. However, when she got back in the picture, she cut all access off to him.

It sounds like anyone who wants or needs to work with Brian ends up getting a half-assed experience which really pisses me off. I bet Mike felt the same damn way as VDP for the last BB album.

I don't feel it, myself.  I was just thinking of Mike and the last BB album.  For all I know, Brian could just be keeping these collaborators at bay using others as intermediaries.

Equating Melinda to Landy has been going on since I started reading BB stuff on the internet in the late 90’s. Considering all of the info and context Ray Lawlor has offered on that and related topics in the last year or two right here on this board, it’s really unfair to equate her with Landy.

That isn’t to say politics are never at play when it comes to the BB’s in all of their iterations (when are politics *not* at play?). But I’m guessing, at least *sometimes*, Brian doesn’t work with a given person at a given point because he doesn’t want to.

But when people seem to feel they can’t “get to” Brian, I think that sort of stuff is not any sort of Landy-esque control. Rather, that’s the same politics and insulation involved in most interactions among famous musicians/celebrities. Many if not most such people have layers of people around them. Not controlling them, but doing stuff for them. Yes, those people are sometimes a buffer.

But if VDP was invited to be a part of TLOS, and Mike was part of the C50 reunion, then I’m not sure what sort of room they have to complain about not having “access” to Brian. Those scenarios sound to me more like Brian is enlisting help for specific things. Inviting someone else to work on a project doesn’t always mean Brian wants to sit down with you and write songs on a 50/50 split from scratch. Look at Jardine’s involvement on “No Pier Pressure.” Brian has used terms like “we used Al for some songs.” To me, it’s a case of Brian knowing what he wants and delegating certain things to certain people. He thinks Al will sound good on a track. He has Al come in and sing it. It’s not an invitation to write stuff together. Maybe it’s not always touchy-feely and warm and fuzzy, but frankly that shows a more active and focused Brian working on a project.

Also, as it pertains to Mike and writing with Brian in 2012, as Howie Edelson and others have pointed out, by seemingly everybody’s account, Brian and Mike were together on the road for MONTHS and without Melinda there for most of that time, and the evidence doesn’t indicate that Mike ever put any effort into writing with Brian. On tours, there is plenty of downtime, and a keyboard always nearby. As was mentioned, 2012 was the most time Brian and Mike had spent together on a daily basis since probably 1981.

I agree. I think the Landy-Melinda comparisons are way off base.

I do think comparing NPP and TLOS collaborators on Brian Wilson solo projects to the perceived lack of collaboration on TWGMTR by Mike and other Beach Boys is a little bit of a stretch. I understand that historically Beach Boys records have had varying degrees of input from all the members. Much like the touring band has had varying degrees of participation from the surviving members. That is not a judgement, as much as, reality. I get the sense that Mike perceives that Brian has dominion over Beach Boys studio work, while Mike has control over Beach Boys touring band. Unfortunately, Brian doesn't want greater input from Mike in the studio and Mike doesn't want to compromise the way he tours. I, like others, believe the sum is better than the individual parts.

I'm curious, who do you think these "handlers" specifically are?

Also, fantastic post, HeyJude.

Comparing Melinda to Landy is wrong because Melinda is not using Brian for her own gains like he did and she has his best interests at heart. Still the woman is both his wife AND his manager, if anyone is in a position to determine Brian's interactions, it is her.

It gets worse than that. Much worse, Mike's Beard. She has an app on her phone that controls him and streamlines the process. There's a button for smile, a button for "do some hand gestures," and one for "never ever get in a room alone with Mike."

(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8868/17835823524_2d551699fd.jpg)

Fig. 5554. The Mastermind at work. PULL THE STRING!

I think VDP is ambivalent when it comes to Brian and his work with him. And Brian is probably the same way regarding VDP (cue in Ringo's birthday bash speech). All of it is understandable considering their differences in personality, creative type, lifestyle and success. There is a mutual respect, if not friendship, that underlies their relationship I think. Both of them were haunted by the Smile aftermath in different ways. I'm not sure how much of a fan of Van's music Brian is (he was very vocal against certain songs on OCA). Van probably feels his role in Smile is downplayed; and sometimes he seems a little bitter at being known for his association with a savant, himself being the learned type.

Regarding having access to Brian, it's reasonable for a lyricist to feel frustrated if he can't work alongside his composer. But still, seeing how he works with Thomas, Scott and others, perhaps Brian himself avoided such meetings, and likely used buffers for it. Showbiz workings, as a previous poster said. I wonder what their collaboration for The Waltz was like.

Is there anything those folks at Apple can't do when they put their mind to it?

For the record I wasn't trying to make a direct comparison between Landy and Melinda but I apologize for mentioning the two together and making an unfair connection.

My main point is how it seems that people go into a project with BW and end up getting something different. I agree that whoever manages him has the right to control the experience but that'd sure be a let down if I were in that situation and would piss me off.

<post deleted>

It wasn't. The melody was wrtten back in the late 80s (and recorded as 'Let's Get Together'). VDP wrote new, arguably worse lyrics for it, and then Brian recorded new, inarguably worse vocals for it. I...don't think Brian cared for the lyrics that much, and it shows.

Just relistened to this song after a long time. Man, GIOMH was a weird album... Let's Stick Together on the other hand is one of my favorites from Brian's solo career!

Brian on VDP in the NPR interview posted today: "I haven't see him in years. Not since we did the Smile album."

Let's Get Together, Let's Stick Together, City of Seattle....they're all the same :lol


Seriously, though...shows how much I cared for it that I of all people got the name wrong! :lol :lol :lol

Yeah, but I was wondering if they ever met for that.

Here's the quote from the VDP interview referenced.

Speaking only for myself, I'd rather be victimized by buffoonery than bored/annoyed by pretentiousness, but that's just me I guess.


Ahhh...I don't think so, but I don't know for sure. I would imagine no, in the Parks acted like being contacted for the new BWPS lyrics was the first time he talked to him in ages, but it was in normal English, so who knows if it was true or not.

At the New York City Q & A tonight, Brian had praise and good things to say all around for Van Dyke, specifically complimenting him as a lyricist and for his musicianship.

Doesn't he know he's supposed to be estranged from VDP ? Well, really...  ;D

I have emails from 2003 before  Brian called to me     from VDP that clearly show that he had not heard  from BW re the announced completion goal for Smile.

Wasn't VDP and BDW photographed with Randy Newman backstage somewhere in 2011?

In London. Jools Holland show.

That VDP has taken to calling Love and Mercy "Mrs.Wilson's biopic" suggests that things are still not rosey between him and the Wilson camp.

That's f***ed up. If thats how he feels, he needs to get over himself

They probably aren't as close as we wish or as distant as they sometimes seem.

That quote was from a tweet quite a while back, and it segued into a Mike Love joke. I don't think it was to be taken all that seriously. Also, Brian had given an interview around that time saying that he didn't know all that much about the movie and that his wife was involved. So he was clearly referring to that.

Smartest thing you've ever said.

(http://s23.postimg.org/zfpgwipjf/Untitled.png)

How would you know?

Mr. Parks needs to decide if he wants to be associated with Brian and SMiLE or not. For a guy who claims he's over BW, who sides with Daro's opinion of him, and who makes snarky comments about someone's genius PR, it sure seems to burn his buns when he's left out of the discussion. He's been whining about everything Brian's done since the reunion tour. News Flash, Mr. Parks: This is Brian's story. Not yours. 

Cuz he's spoken with your family and co-workers and they said usually you're not saying the smartest stuff.

What was VDP's role in the recording of Good Vibrations anyway? I heard the cello triplet idea credited to him, but also to Carl (if I'm not mistaken). The whole VDP vibe towards Smile seems to be underscored by a desire to be vindicated as more than a mere lyrical partner. Nevertheless, Van Dyke himself helped build that image with quotes such as "I was a glorified scribe" and the like.

Exactly. Bluntly put, nobody would give two shits about him if he hadn't written the lyrics for Smile. He's jealous.

I enjoy Van Dyke a great deal, but some folks shouldn't tweet.

This movie seems to be rubbing many people in various quarters the wrong way.

Doesn't mean there isn't some sort of jealousy  involved. And, yeah, maybe I was a bit too harsh, but it seems like he drinks too much wine made from sour grapes.

Bound to. Everyone's got their own take on "what really happened".

I'm also reminded of VDP's "Free Brian Wilson" tweet once it was announced there would be young guest stars on NPP (we all know what the insinuation is there).

Personally, I think VDP was really stung by Brian's initial decision to resurrect SMiLE without his involvement. I'm reminded of that scene in "Beautiful Dreamer" when Brian has invited VDP over to write new lyrics (presumably the first time VDP was officially called in to work on the project) and Brian keeps reassuring VDP that everybody loves him. Watch it again, and Brian says it in a very sweet and almost paternal way. That always struck me as a little strange at the time, but then having read about how VDP felt snubbed, it makes a little more sense.

Perhaps VDP feels like his role in SMiLE has been marginalized? I don't see why he would think that, since he and Brian are always mentioned in the same breath. Maybe he was ticked off that after TLOS he wasn't invited to participate in NPP. Maybe he WAS invited but the deal was lousy? All of it speculation, of course. Who knows?

The only thing we know for sure is that relationships can turn on a dime in Beach Boy-land and it wouldn't surprise me to see VDP jump on stage with an accordion at one of Brian's shows...or even one of Mike & Bruce's at this rate.
  

Well....if VDP feels that two scenes in L&M don't really show his significance in Brian's career, if the movie proves a hit to the degree where studio suits are saying "Get me a Beach Boys type project yesterday," then he can see if some of his young friends in the film community would be up for telling his story on film.  There are reports that his son Richard, who has a few short documentaries under his belt, is doing a feature doc about him.

Or in a dramatized feature.  The truth is VDP's physical appearance hasn't altered as much as Brian's in a half century so if you've got the right kind of makeup man and the right wigs you could have an actor play him from 22 to 70.  It'd be a heck of a role for a young actor...imagine learning all that polysyllabic dialogue.  But a lot of it would be hilarious to watch, especially when the Dubonnet and/or Harry Nilsson shows up.

(Now that's what I'm really hoping for, if L&M hits big....the Nilsson story as a dramatic feature. It literally has everything you'd want in a movie.)

Thread bump.  ;)

I am a clairvoyant  :)

I remember when Orange Crate Art came out, just as a laugh I sent an e-mail to VDP's address as listed in the liner notes. Very brief message, I think one or two bullet points. One of them was, "Are you sick of people asking about Smile?" And he responded yes, he was sick of it, because it was only a few months out of his life, and he had gone on to much more significant things and doesn't feel he had anything more he could really say about Smile. Man, do people in Brian's world change their attitudes harshly!

We're not supposed to say this now, especially with the biopic portraying Melinda as the savior, but yes, I do get the Landy vibe. She seems very controlling - or maybe Brian just likes having someone to hide behind, someone to keep away the people he doesn't want to see, without having to say so himself.

It always does set off alarm bells, and rightfully so, when Melinda is compared to Landy. But I submit that the similarity you mention - control - might be true, AND might be a very good thing. It might be possible that, yes, Melinda does exercise a good deal of control and influence over Brian, mainly in his career decisions and interacting with others, as you mention. It's possible that Brian wouldn't have been touring regularly for years. Ray and others can shed insight on that of course.

But Melinda should NEVER, in my opinion, be compared to Landy because there is a HUGE difference in the type of control exerted by someone who truly loves Brian and by someone who was by all accounts nothing more than a self-glorifying leech. Landy would have driven Brian to his grave and would have inherited his estate. Melinda, on the other hand, loves Brian and has his interests at heart. I do believe that. For example, she knew, yes, how much Brian might struggle, and go through pain, to go out on the road on a regular basis. But she also knew how much it would mean to him to experience the applause and the appreciation from fans, and how that would bring him greater happiness in the long run. Am I close, Ray?

How do you know Brian HASN'T  said so himself?

Well said.

People with emotional issues and depression often need someone who will exert a little tough love to get their butts out of bed so they can be productive doing the things they love. They also need someone who is not afraid to tell them "no,"  who won't accept their waffling, and who is doing all of this in love and  with their best interest at heart. I have, and have had, friends who suffer with depression and I've been that person at times. They may have complained when I held them accountable, but they always thanked me later. Because ultimately, it was a good thing.

I think Melinda is that person for Brian. Landy wasn't.

All you folks who think Melinda is some strange controller of Brian's life must not be married.  :lol

Completely agree, and as someone who suffers from severe bipolar disorder,  I can personally vouch for that

Brilliant!

As it now seems to be the done thing on this board to fall into one camp or the other, I'll state that I'm a Van Dyke Parks fan and supporter.

There didn't seem to me to have been any fall out between him and some aspects of the BBs/BW camps (beyond the traditional) until the time of TSS box set. One minute Van Dyke is speaking fullsomely of this "veritable Fabergé egg", the next he's distanced himself from it; a few years on and these seemingly cranky posts start.

The perceived birthday "snub" I can happily discount. Firstly, Van is probably fully aware of Brian's technical capability with relation to social media - note the line in the recent Rolling Stone piece about Brian not having replaced his cell phone since losing it years ago, and having little to do with computers (beyond posting personally in the Smiley board of course!) – and would know that Brian would never see the message anyway. He'd also perhaps suspect - and I reckon he'd be right if so - that the video, should he get to see it, would elicit a great big belly laugh from Brian. Chances are that Van sent Brian a traditional birthday card (some older readers will recall them - you had to remember the birthday usually by writing it on your calendar or in your diary, buy a physical card, which was usually printed with a picture on the front and a birthday greeting inside, write your own message then post it to a physical address wih a stamp on it to prove bag you'd paid to have it delivered - all this had to be achieved without Facebook).

Those who think Smile was the only meaningful achievement in Van's professional life need to do a little more research. His output has been prolific and superb down the years.

And it's a little disingenuous to accuse him of not moving on from Smile - he's one of its parents, afterall, while we are all stalkers by comparison.

I think he has unfinished business in relation to his input on Smile and perhaps, after almost 60 years, it's getting under his skin.

Let's say next year Brian calls up VDP and says, "Joe's out the door so can you write some lyrics to a suite of songs I found in my desl drawer?" Will VDP refuse? Whaddya think?

Crunch question! I reckon VDP should have his lawyer look through the terms of the publishing contract before deciding though!

+1

If this doesn't show affection, what does?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OiykTknz51U

something a little more current than 20 years ago?

Old work colleagues with a complex web of relationships based on history, money, rivalry (at least from VDP to BW it seems), both periodically haunted by a project they spent a few months on together the best part of 50 years ago and again over a few weeks 12 years ago.

Difficult stuff to get away from, even if one wants to, which will create ambivalent attitudes in those involved.

Bit of a weird one really, as VDP is probably most famous for Smile than anything else he's done, which may stick in his craw but ain't Brian's fault. Meanwhile, imo Brian seems to show more dignity in his reserve and public respect for VDP, while VDP's occasional waspish public comments on the issue do him few favours.

If VDP's not happy with his deal re. Smile, be it financially or how he was/ is credited on the project re. 'authorship', maybe he should pursue it legally,  a la Mike Love did in 1994.

Wasn't Van Dyke hired by Brian's organisation back in 1966 as a lyricist in a 'contractor'-type role, the same as Tony Asher was with Pet Sounds, in that Brian/ Capitol were free to use as much or as little of VDP's work as they wished? Whatever the reality, it was never meant to be viewed as a 50/50 thing in the public domain. Van Dyke's certainly never been credited on the front album cover of any officially released version of Smile as 'by Brian Wilson and Van Dyke Parks

Just a few thoughts really.

If VDP got the short end of the stick, crediting and/or compensation-wise, VDP surely hasn't a fraction of the deep pockets that Mike has (or had in 1994) to wage a lawsuit if he feels wronged.

sure he does!  It might not be a large fraction tho

Whatever bucks he has, it surely ain't anywhere near Mike Love-level bucks! At that level of wealth, lawsuits like the thrown-outta-court Smile CD giveaway lawsuit must be easier, relatively speaking, to just throw out there and see if they stick, or so I'd imagine.

 I expect part of Mike's income goes toward keeping his attorney(s) on retainer

The same "dream team" OJ Simpson had. ::)

I wouldn't doubt it.

Johnny Cocharson
F OnLee With You Bailey
Our Robert Car-dashian Club
Micheal Robert Shapi-row The Boat Ashore
Alan Dersho-with Me Tonight

Yes, a large part of myKe luHv's legacy is based on his litigious nature. It comes from not trusting a soul, especially a bandmate that got him where he is today, and is fueled primarily by paranoia. ::)

The songwriting lawsuit I can understand and empathize with, since he legitimately got screwed over in a big way, and that ain't right however you slice it (or however anybody feels about him). I'd like to think that everyone can agree being screwed out of actual songwriting credits (the debatable WIBN aside) wasn't right - even if some might have been padded out or exaggerated, I think a good number were actually unequivocally not.

But the other lawsuits absolutely seem very petty and bitter. No doubt.

Exactly, Mike's paranoida and jealousy is the prime factor in constantly suing BW for no reason.

Being a goof and looking like he did as a kid (and now of course), I can see him getting beat up after school on numerous occasions which was most likely a building block for his close relationship with lawyers. Then came the wives. Has myKe luHv been in court longer than he's been on stage ???.

The songwriting lawsuit mixed legitimate songs that Mike wrote half or more of the lyrics to with songs that he had little or nothing to do with.  Mike feels if he comes up with a bass vocal line he deserves half of the song.  Witness Wouldn't It Be Nice - "good night baby, sleep tight baby" is his sole contribution to the song.  The Becoming the Beach Boys is very illuminating in detailing how Mike was always trying to horn in on the songwriting credits.  409 - he came up with the intro "she's real fine my 409" and the bass part answering "giddy up giddyup 409" which just took a lyric already written for the song.  For that he now gets a third of the song?  Music copywriter law stipulates melody and lyrics, not backing vocals or bass vocal arrangements as what constitutes the song.  Read about Be True to Your School - written almost completely by Brian, I think Mike came up with the loud braggart Intro if anything.  So Mike parlayed some songs he had legitimately been denied credit for into co authorship of many many songs in which his contribution was trivial.  His lawyers earned their fees with that case.

Totally. I think he ran with it, from what started out as a truly legit gripe over actual, proper lyrics that were not credited. And yes, he tried to settle it earlier at a much lower fee, so I'll give him credit for that.

However, regardless of how we feel about the overreaching with credits on some songs, and even if we (or I'll speak for myself and say "I") feel that lawsuits like the Smile CD giveaway suit were baseless and frankly despicable considering the emotionally painful circumstance that entire project became for Brian - the fact remains that nobody, not even the biggest Mike hater, should say that the group of songs which he unquestionably wrote significant lyrics for should have been uncredited. That's something that everyone, regardless of party/side preference, should at least be able to say. Of course he is due credits over actual significant lyrics he wrote.

Didn't the jury/judge set damages and determine percentages?

Mike takes credit for 1 of 3 verses of BTTYS and then there was a repeated chorus, a third of the verses seems like a significant contribution.

Aren't Mike's contributions to the lyrics of 409 shown as lyrics of record for the song? They are repeated like 18 times during the song.

Very good post. In my own opinion, the Wouldn't It Be Nice issue is one of the most egregious examples of over-reaching, but it's ground which has been covered before. Just consider too what would seem to be around three dozen songs that were originally filed in the lawsuit that got rejected. Meaning simply, credit was claimed and entered into court but those songs got thrown out of the court case. I'd like to see what those were and what about the claims caused them to be dismissed. That's quite a lot of songs and credits. Wonder what didn't add up.

I would guess lack of evidence, some of the ones that stuck apparently had eye witness testimony. It might be tough if your collaborator was also the publisher responsible.

Apparently? Who was the eyewitness?

You bet yer arse.  Right friggin' on.  My wife thinks she controls my life.  I think she doesn't.  The input she provides, though, proves invaluable.  Brian's the kind of guy who NEEDS a poke.  Darian.  Jeff when he was around.  Melinda.  [and then there was Murry...and the so-called doctor.]  Some do it for HIS own best interests.  SOME tried to do it for THEIR own  There's a difference.

Some were mentioned in that eyewitness account of the trial I believe. David, Al, Carl I believe; Brian kind of. I believe Brian has said something since about Mike deserving it.

Most of this is in the board's archives from the last time you discussed it with me. I'm wondering who were the eyewitnesses? The only eyewitness of note regarding "Wouldn't It Be Nice" would have been, and was, Tony Asher. Who else gave eyewitness testimony in this case? Was there anyone beyond David, Al, and Carl called? Asher, yes, but anyone else?

Wondering about the opinions on whether Mike also deserved those 3 dozen or so song claims that were originally part of it but got thrown out or rejected by the court.

I don't know who all or how many, as I said for "some of the ones that stuck". Court records would presumably show who?  There was also other evidence and exhibits mentioned. There did need to be a preponderance of evidence for those songs awarded after all.

Re. those that were not awarded, as I said "I would guess lack of evidence" which could be less than a preponderance of evidence.

Some would say there was a similar lack of evidence found by singling out Wouldn't It Be Nice as an example. The theory put forth by Mike's lawyer was tin-foil hat, faked moon landing territory unless some actually believe Brian was taking bathroom breaks during the sessions to talk to Mike on the phone and get the lyrics in order as Mike wrote them from the road. Because Tony Asher and Brian were the two writers on that song, and it was suggested otherwise.

Now consider the 409 example above, it makes sense. But is that equal to co-writership credit any more than Ringo Starr could have taken the interests who made money off "A Hard Days Night" both film and music to court and win if the "409" standard was applied there. I guess one would also wonder why Ringo never did because it looks like 409 was won in similar claims. The title is the hook, right?

I guess I'm just still wondering who the powerhouse eyewitness or witnesses could possibly have been to tip the scales in Mike's direction especially on songs that are less obvious in writer credits like WIBN and others. Writing a coda that only shows up in the last seconds of the record itself, that's co-authorship? After the real meat-and-potatoes argument about the song fell on its face since the bathroom break conspiracy didn't make any sense?

I don't know. It feels like there was someone like a powerhouse witness called by Mike's team that swayed the case, similar to Paul Newman's character calling the former nurse Caitlyn Costello-Price to the stand to clinch the case in The Verdict. Bicyclerider above made a logical case in a few really solid sentences that some of the examples awarded in court were spotty at best. So there had to be an ace in the hole somewhere, I'd think.

After doing some searches on the Google, I found this eyewitness acount of the trial by a fan who watched from the gallery.  Definitely an interesting read.  Despite having been separated from Landy, Brian was still in a very fragile state at this time.  It would seem he didn't really care about the outcome and it was his testimony that won the trial for Mike.
http://www.surfermoon.com/essays/lovevwilson1.html

I can't speak to all of your witness and evidence speculating and logic-ing but I guess the bottom line is the judge and jury, who actually heard all of the eye witness or otherwise evidence, thought Mike was denied due credit on 30 some songs.  Hopefully someday some actual court records/transcripts will surface.

Re. 409: Unless "gitty up" is the hook.

My understanding is that Brian was expected to testify but in his fragile state he couldn't and that essentially made Mike's case - without Brian to testify as to Mikes contributions or lack thereof, the case had to be decided in Mikes favor.  I understand that since Mike had a legitimate claim to many of the songs, Brian didn't want to go up against him especially in a public court, but his "caving" completely allowed many of the more dubious co-songwriting claims to stand unchallenged.  Do we know how much credit for each song in the suit Mike was allotted?  I.e. 50% for Wilson-Love songs, and 33% for songs with two other writers?  Because 33% of WIBN is shamefully high.  But because Brian never contested the claims in court I assume that's what Mike was rewarded.

maybe Brian felt Mike getting undue credit on some of the songs somehow made up for the years he didn't get royalties on the songs he legitimately co wrote?

It is shamefully high I think in more than a few fans' opinions as well, which is where some resentment might still linger over the way this was done.

And reading through those trial observations, a few things really hit home that don't get repeated or reported all that often. The way things were at that time, I'm actually stunned that there wasn't more done against having a blown-up photo of Murry Wilson on display in the courtroom knowing what a trigger Murry's image had been and was for years with Brian. That's seriously f***ed up, but lawyers don't have an off-switch when it comes to winning, i suppose. Hope everyone enjoyed the money.

It's ironic in a way that the OJ Simpson trial was going on at the same time across the street (according to the author of those essays), and look how that one turned out. Anyone think OJ was truly innocent because Judge Lance Ito and the jury said so in that trial?  ;D  Well, maybe OJ was still looking for the real killers years later when he assaulted that guy who had his football memorabilia in Vegas or something, we don't know. Or do we.

OJ didnt do anything wrong. But IF he did, here's how...

The point is that 20 years ago, VDP didn't seem to have these 'issues' and while he now seems to scorn certain aspects of their relationship in the past, he seems to be talking out of his backside in the way he's going on about the past now. He may have issues with the way Brian's life is being managed now, but I susoect if he'd been ecording with him, I doubt we'd be seeing tweets telling us that Harry Nilsson is the ONLY genius in pop/rock or he'd be bleating about his role in Smile, which, I maintain, is till the thing he's best known for.


But since we're back on ragging against Mike, it doesn't really matter does it?

Thanks for sharing this, what a great read! Seems like BW was in a really bad place in '94, it's amazing he could actually work on projects like the Orange Crate Art album at the time.

Looks like 39 songs were only ever in the suit according to the trial witness. Mike apparently didn't argue for a certain amount of credit (even offering a low ball settlement) or with any previous under-crediting (like had happened to Asher).

OJ's trial was a different judge and jury with a different standard of proof.  I also don't remember OJ testifying for the prosecution.  Hasn't Brian said outside of the trial also that Mike was un-credited?  Maybe fans make more out of it then Brian and Mike did?

I agree; based on that eyewitness account, Brian did appear to be dealing with some serious issues, and that was 1994. In the recent "Carl" thread, The Real Beach Boy mentioned the "h" word - handlers- in describing Brian in 1995, less than a year later. Some posters took exception to that. They must think that Brian made a tremendous recovery in the few months after the trial.

I have nothing to say other than when you read that account of the credit trial, it is hilarious that the dragged David Marks into court to get his account on the writing of "Chug-A-Lug."

That would also be my guess for why Brian wasn't involved in SIP. It wasn't like he was under Landy's care one day and then magically fine the next.

Mike was out of his mind in the 1990s with SIP, taking money from BW in the "lawsuit" ,and kicking Al out of the band. Kokomo turned him into a madman.

Was it ever officially announced whether Al left voluntarily?? He was very vague about it in the big interview Goldmine did with him shortly afterwards.

I believe Mike has been very vocal about kicking him out for his "attitude problem." For better or worse, it seems to have been Mike's decision.

I wonder if Al would have been squeezed out the way he was had Kokomo not existed. I like the song well enough, but I think the power control shift in whatever form(s) it took (and it had to have had a behnd-the-scenes political effect in some way) did not ultimately bode well for the band in hindsight, and I can't understand those who think a power shift in Mike's direction in that era was a wonderful thing that should ideally have started years earlier. If no Kokomo could have *possibly* meant that the band would have released some better material in that era during Carl's lifetime, I think it would have been worth the tradeoff easily.

Regardless of Kokomo, Mike was probably eventually going to sue for legit song credits that he was screwed out of (aside from some debatable ones, there were surely some that he was in fact, unarguably, a proper co-author of, and those songs he had every right to be credited on). While Mike may deserve flak for overreaching with the lawsuit, nobody should say that the suit was completely without merit.

But if Mike's post-Kokomo actions do *not* constitute a power-grab, I'd like to know what would in fact be an example of a power-grab.

As mentioned before, no one else was offering much else in the late 80s-early 90s. Other then what Mike and Melcher were writing, the band had a severe songwriting drought.

You know what might have helped stop the drought? Taking some time off from touring to write some music, like most bands do from time to time.

Great points CD, it almost seemed like Mike wanted the BBs to his solo group with no questions asked. If they were, the members like Al were kicked to the curb.

Mike had bills from the ex-wives club. >:D

As evidenced by the sheer volume of touring that M&B do, it seems rather obvious that Mike was the primary person pushing the neverending touring, even during Carl/Al's era. If it was Mike who passed in 1998 and Carl was still living and touring as The BBs, does anyone think there'd be near as many shows?

I hardly think that endless touring lends itself to any kind of creative refreshment to write a significant swath of quality material.  Yes, on one hand they *all* got on autopilot mode, but it's much easier for that to have happened if the alternative (expressing displeasure) meant being branded as having an "attitude problem" and being kicked to the curb.

Hence why Mike's creativity and vocal talents have been decreasing over the years. The non-stop touring really is detrimental personally without even factoring the brand damage from playing questionable venues. Hence the giant video board on M&B tours to distract from the band's tired playing and singing.

Guess what, without much of a recording contract, if any through most of the late 80's & 90's, touring was their main income maker.  Even in their hey day they were constantly on the road. That never changed throughout their whole career. These guys don't have lifestyles like most of us. It takes money and lots of it to maintain what they were all comfortable with.

T'wasn't that way at all when I went to see them 3 1/2 weeks ago.  It was spot on and really well done.  Both the playing and the singing.  Those video boards might have been of more benefit to those further back.  Some nice augmentation with ALL of the original guys on screen as the corresponging songs were performed.  It was WAY better than I was expecting.  Like...it was just plain GREAT.

Anderle, Vosse, and Siegel make it sound like it wasn't all sweetness and light between them back in the day. That they wouldn't be able to work together seemed inevitable to them it seems to me.  Probably they both have some issues with each other and as you get older setting your record straight might seem more important.

Brand damage? Absolutely! The myKe and br00th band have been the most overexposed live act for years. Anything so myKe doesn't have be home I guess. What an effed up existence. ::)

Here's the thing, we don't know what potential record contracts were on the table for the BBs after "Kokomo"...We're probably a bit off-base to assume that there were none.  I wouldn't know obviously.  But unless you were in a BRI meeting at that time, neither would most of you.  Possibly someone has a good source?

My point was meaning having a recording contract as a source of income. Touring  probably made up a good portion of their income.

every fucking thread

Light and Dark

Good and Evil

Male and Female

Yin and Yang

Hot and Cold

R'hllor and the Great Other

Brianistas and Kokomoists

The great dualities of our universe, perpetually in conflict, eternally inescapable. Best get used to it. The only true faith is Zoroastrianism, and we mortals are but pawns on this cosmic chessboard of the two warring Gods.

So, I guess the answer to the question "are Brian Wilson and Van Dyke Parks currently estranged?" is Mike Love sucks?

Maybe instead of "42", as Douglas Adams has it, that's the smileysmile version of "what is the ultimate answer to the question of life, the universe, and everything?"

You're right. I mean, why should I care that this inane trend is eating the place I care about alive? I should just, like, ride the wave of apathy, duuuuuuuude.

I have a good source, my own research and pocketful of useless trivia... ;D

Seriously though, I mentioned this exact topic on the board a few weeks ago in this post, in this thread: http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,22638.msg534710.html#msg534710 (http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,22638.msg534710.html#msg534710)

To sum up, Kokomo was released on the Elektra label. The band had no label at that time, apart from Capitol holding the archival material. Elektra was the label for the Cocktail music and soundtrack, so they did the single release and related promotions for the film tied into the music. Bobby McFerrin did have a label, but he also got and benefited from the Elektra PR around the film and got the film's first #1 hit.

So Capitol got in to the party, and offered the band a deal with options Capitol could take or refuse. They wanted Kokomo. The band at the time basking in the glow of Kokomo hitting #1 in Fall 1988 was working up new material, in fact Bruce in an interview said he wanted another hit record, and didn't want to become part of a touring oldies revue. Al said Capitol was looking for three charting singles as part of the deal they gave the band. Capitol wanted both Kokomo on a Capitol album release to drive sales away from Elektra and onto Capitol, as well as what they thought would be follow-ups to the #1 single Kokomo.

That's where Still Cruisin came from going into 1989. It was on Capitol, but for whatever reasons there didn't seem to be the level of truly "new" original music as reports suggested the band had been busy recording on that album. It seems to have morphed into a pseudo-greatest hits hodgepodge of "Kokomo and Other Assorted One-Offs"...and Capitol never got the follow-up singles they had expected.

They also - If the timeline adds up - passed at the chance to release Summer In Paradise. In other words, they rejected it which could possibly have been part of their option in the deal that gave them Kokomo on Still Cruisin with their option to pick up the next album (SIP) or not. And they did not. Hence, "Brother Entertainment" a label no one had heard of released the SIP album. Affiliates of EMI picked it up a year later after it bombed in the US, in a remixed and reworked form specifically for the UK, and which also bombed in the UK in 1993.

So there was a deal with conditions, but for whatever reasons the band failed to do what was expected of them, despite reports of them actively writing and recording new music to follow up Kokomo. The deal basically died on the table after Still Cruisin, and that album did not seem to end up as the plans reported in the press just after Kokomo and the "new" Capitol deal had been enacted.

Capitol also wanted more to push with the CD releases of Pet Sounds, the two-fers, etc. They didn't get much of note from the band.

Again, it was the archival material, specifically Pet Sounds, some of the two-fers in that campaign, and the GV box set in 1993 that bailed them out yet again. But with all of that attention, really, really positive legacy-building type of attention, some things that could have happened to capitalize (no pun) on that spotlight got shot down by various band members and certain events. And instead Summer In Paradise, and other questionable PR moves (and live shows) were the face of the band in the present versus the archival "legend" type of attention that was really cooking in the early 90's.

It's a shame in some ways.

Because my post was totally 100% serious and absolutely not meant to be humorous at all  ::)

Never work with family...particularly when you're not a member of it.

Thanks for that, and yes I had been following the other thread. This deal with Capitol income-wise, could not have been anything like the deal they received from CBS in 1977 or even the Reprise deal in 1969-1970. My whole point was that some folks here were complaining or putting a negative spin on all of the touring in that period. Touring really was their bread & butter, especially with no big recording deals during that period. That a lot of touring has been their MO for their whole career. Nothing unusual about it.

Well, Capitol and the Boys got a hit album out of Still Cruisin, so lets not feel like either entity got taken.   The Boys did turn in a half an album of new material, so I guess those tracks could have been up for consideration as additional singles.  Wasn't one of the other tracks from Cruising also released as a single after the title track? Island Off Japan, or some such title?  Beats me, I never bought the thing anyway.  But still, yeah, a pretty lame-o release it was, with the second-half "these are songs that were in movies" narrative or conceit, which was of course silly nonsense.  I may remember Wouldn't It Be Nice was in Shampoo, but hardly ever think of that factoid when I am playing it.  In fact, that is one song I skip over with some frequency anymore....just heard it too many times.  I find it rather curious that it has been lauded so highly of late....not that it is not musically fine, just seems a little odd, even back in the day folks were saying GOK should have been the hit side over here.

whoops!

I Think its the same reason Brian Wilson was at odds with Mike Love, not getting Song credit, so now he is at odds with van Parks

What songs is Van Dyke not getting credit for?  With BWPS he was given credit for Wind Chimes and Wonderful.  I know of no other songs Van would claim as his.

I suspect a lot of the estrangement is the layers of people between Brian and Van Dyke, and the fact that he was written out of Love and Mercy.  In the old days Van could pick up a phone and call Brian or drop by the house.  Now meetings have to be approved and arranged.  Hard to maintain a relationship and clear up misunderstandings or hurt feelings that way.

From what I'm gathering, it's something about wanting to be credited (in addition to lyrics) as a co-arranger of at least some of the music, and possibly being denied such crediting (and whatever monetary benefit that would entail). 

How do you know this to be true?

feelings, nothing more than feelings

I'm talking about in 1966-67 - and how I know is by the multiple accounts of that time by Brian, Van Dyke, the Vosse posse, press, etc.  how do I know that now meetings have to be approved and arranged?  Surely you know that Brian has handlers and Melinda and that access to Brian is controlled?  Mike and others (Jeff Beck et al) have complained about that very thing. 

Who are the handlers?

Brian's "people" would be a better choice of word as there are people that assist him in his personal and professional life. I think when the word handlers is thrown out there, as it often is, it implies Brian is not permitted to live for himself and make his own choices. Well...even if there is a grain of truth to that, if you have been a lifelong fan of Brian's and the beach boys and don't understand why Brian in all likelyhood needs his people to be there for him then I don't know what else to say. Brian has been surrounded by good people these last couple of decades and that's a good thing.

L&M hammered it home that the 60's Brian was no longer here by the 80's. Well it's 2015. Brian is not sitting around the house waiting for a call from ANYBODY to collaborate with. So if anyone wishes to work with Brian, or Melinda or any other of Brian's people want to reach out to someone that Brian could do something cool with, and the only way that works is to go through said "people", then so be it. It's totally understandable.

Short version, as I expected: You don't know it to be true. Brian's friends are able to call him on the phone and drop by whenever they like. BW drives his own car, goes where he likes, and does what he pleases.

If Van isn't able to do that now, then that's perhaps because he's not Brian's friend now -- and hasn't been for 50 years.

We're on the handlers thing again? Yeesh. I guess it's hard not for some fans to build up this strange mental picture of the guy, and are inevitably disappointed when the reality doesn't match the Howard Hughes-ish fantasy!

I'll just leave this quote here. Granted, it's by someone who actually knows what the hell they're talking about so I'm sure it'll be ignored.


I found this going through Ray Lawlor's post history, mostly because I knew it was full of quotes battling the "handlers" myth. Sure enough I wasn't disappointed. Funny how this myth keeps trying to pop up even though it has been debunked time and time again. But some here refuse to face the facts.

Great post by Ray Lawlor! 8)

It probably does get VD's goat that he is more musically sophisticated than Bri, yet is a lot poorer and did not have Brian's ability to write simple, catchy fare that performed well on the charts.  He probably knows he could not write simple successful songs like Brian either, and wonders how that "magic trick" was performed so often.

 ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???   

BW and VDP are too good collaborators to remain estranged....

No disrespect to vdp but Song Cycle Damn near put me to sleep. Pet Sounds is beautiful. SMiLE is at least 10x as fantastic, no doubt due to vdp's brilliant lyrics and input. I think he needed a collaborator himself to tone his ideas down a bit and make them more relatable. SMiLE was a perfect meeting of the minds, Song Cycle tho is just too...idk how to put it...fancy? Regal? Pretentious? It lacks the fun and vibrance that made SMiLE relatively relatable and easy to listen to while still being very layered and arty.

Who handles the handlers?

They've definitely been on good terms more recently than 50 years ago. They seemed pretty close during OCA and BWPS. It's possible Brian saw VDP as more of an employee for the latter but I'd like to believe they were friends then

Watch him at the end of the performance in Beautiful Dreamer. Someone doesn't get that emotional in an employee-boss relationship. :)

Exactly. I felt warmth in the OCA video that was posted recently too. That's why all this is so saddening to me, because it's seemingly out of nowhere. Throwing his lot in with Daro especially.

There are plenty of people I work with -- who I'm friendly with! -- who I wouldn't invite to my home. Just because Van and Brian have a shared history, and just because they sometimes work well together does not mean they're close friends. BW also goes hit and cold on folks -- as Joe T. and Paley now well.

Very true

[Joke mode engaged]

Perhaps VDP heard about how Mike's the greatest lyricist in the world.  He's unhappy about that.

[Joke mode disengaged]

I suspect throwing his lot in with Daro was as much to highlight his thoughts about people who he deems to have a pernicious influence on Brian's creativity - Loren was, after all, pretty damning about Mike and Murry and didn't VDP made some sarcastic comments when the C50 shows got rolling because it's clear that's not where he sees Brian?

I can understand that, but considering everything else he was saying that was obviously untrue or incredibly obnoxious...doesn't make vdp look good to throw his support behind him

You haven't changed a bit, MTG.  ;-)