Why do you hate Mike Love?

[Mike's Beard]

Mike gets to have all the "attitude problems" during the 1960s that he wants, but thinks he nonetheless gets to be completely absolved of any responsibility for his 1960s attitude having any negative effect on those around him... Mike questioning the direction of the band, questioning the lyrics, and perhaps being snarky about it - directed a very sensitive bandmate - is expected by him to be considered A-OK by the fans... that he is misunderstood and not guilty of any criticism... and yet Al is the one who gets literally sidelined and then fired for having a Love-described "attitude problem" in the 1990s. That brand of hypocrisy is one example of why people have intense feelings regarding this man.

I can appreciate his positive contributions... but for people to not see the blatant hypocrisy is rather astounding.

Mike questioned some lyrics and wondered if Brian's new 'out there' music would connect with their fanbase. That is not an attitude problem. It's been mentioned before that by the early 90s Mike, Carl and I'm guessing Bruce aswell could not bear to be in the same room as Al for very long, so bad was his negative attitude towards everything. Without wanting to speculate too much I think Al may have been dealing with issues beyond his stalling music career.

If Brian had been a stronger personality type, and not afraid of confrontation, he could have qualified Mike's probable less-than-polite repeated verbalizations as being an attitude problem, and tried to kick him out of the band or sideline him; yet we all know that isn't in Brian's nature. Brian himself has stated on camera that Mike is one of the reasons for SMiLE being abandoned. And if it's not Mike's SMiLE attitude, the Old Man River sessions is another example of a Mike "attitude problem".

Music projects (among the most beautiful of their career) STALLED in part because of Mike's bad vibes and negativity, which greatly affected Brian. Much like the bandmates you say couldn't bear to be in the same room with Al, Brian too could not stand to continue trying to create art with a bandmate being overbearing and negative. The worst thing that Al would have stalled would have been a show or two. It's not like any great art circa 1990 was abandoned or lost as a result.

It is crazy to keep minimizing every attitude problem that Mike exhibited over the years as being something excusable, while saying that a fed-up-with-the-embarrasing-cheapening-of-the-brand Al exhibited an attitude problem. Either they both exhibited an attitude problem, or neither of them did.

Oh dear, we're back to the ol' Mike is the reason Smile was shelved. Groundhog Day. He kicked up over a few lyrics, which he then sung anyway, so it's not like the project ground to a halt because of it. They were Van's lyrics anyway, not Brian's. EVERY band that ever was has creative conflict from time to time, it has nothing to do with an 'attitude problem'. Dig up some aural evidence of Mike bullying and berating Brian for hours in the studio and then we'll talk.
And as I mentioned before Al seemed to be having problems far beyond being against a few cheerleaders on stage. He apparently was dragging up issues dating back 20 years and dwelling on them.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Isnt that still all after the movie tho?

Yes but not months after and Kokomo was already charting in the 20s when the movie was released.

You do realize "Thanks Obama" is an ironic joke, right?

Right, AGD pointed that out and I acknowledged I was wrong. I think if anything, you saying it only charted after the movie helps my original point tho.

And you realize Im 100% serious about good ol Bernie S, right?

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Mike gets to have all the "attitude problems" during the 1960s that he wants, but thinks he nonetheless gets to be completely absolved of any responsibility for his 1960s attitude having any negative effect on those around him... Mike questioning the direction of the band, questioning the lyrics, and perhaps being snarky about it - directed a very sensitive bandmate - is expected by him to be considered A-OK by the fans... that he is misunderstood and not guilty of any criticism... and yet Al is the one who gets literally sidelined and then fired for having a Love-described "attitude problem" in the 1990s. That brand of hypocrisy is one example of why people have intense feelings regarding this man.

I can appreciate his positive contributions... but for people to not see the blatant hypocrisy is rather astounding.

Mike questioned some lyrics and wondered if Brian's new 'out there' music would connect with their fanbase. That is not an attitude problem. It's been mentioned before that by the early 90s Mike, Carl and I'm guessing Bruce aswell could not bear to be in the same room as Al for very long, so bad was his negative attitude towards everything. Without wanting to speculate too much I think Al may have been dealing with issues beyond his stalling music career.

If Brian had been a stronger personality type, and not afraid of confrontation, he could have qualified Mike's probable less-than-polite repeated verbalizations as being an attitude problem, and tried to kick him out of the band or sideline him; yet we all know that isn't in Brian's nature. Brian himself has stated on camera that Mike is one of the reasons for SMiLE being abandoned. And if it's not Mike's SMiLE attitude, the Old Man River sessions is another example of a Mike "attitude problem".

Music projects (among the most beautiful of their career) STALLED in part because of Mike's bad vibes and negativity, which greatly affected Brian. Much like the bandmates you say couldn't bear to be in the same room with Al, Brian too could not stand to continue trying to create art with a bandmate being overbearing and negative. The worst thing that Al would have stalled would have been a show or two. It's not like any great art circa 1990 was abandoned or lost as a result.

It is crazy to keep minimizing every attitude problem that Mike exhibited over the years as being something excusable, while saying that a fed-up-with-the-embarrasing-cheapening-of-the-brand Al exhibited an attitude problem. Either they both exhibited an attitude problem, or neither of them did.

Oh dear, we're back to the ol' Mike is the reason Smile was shelved. Groundhog Day. He kicked up over a few lyrics, which he then sung anyway, so it's not like the project ground to a halt because of it. They were Van's lyrics anyway, not Brian's. EVERY band that ever was has creative conflict from time to time, it has nothing to do with an 'attitude problem'. Dig up some aural evidence of Mike bullying and berating Brian for hours in the studio and then we'll talk.
And as I mentioned before Al seemed to be having problems far beyond being against a few cheerleaders on stage. He apparently was dragging up issues dating back 20 years and dwelling on them.

I dont think Century was trying to say Mike killed SMiLE so much as bring up the point "who is Mike (or anyone, really) to throw someone out for 'bad attitude'?" I cant speak for Al's behavior. Maybe he really was insufferable, and in that case I understand the need to at least give him a stern talking to about it. Throwing him out seems extreme tho, unless they tried reasoning with him often before and he didnt listen.

[SMiLE Brian]

Mujan, it's Mike being a dick to BW and being a oblivious jerk as usual later to Al complaining about his ruining of the BBs legacy.

[Mike's Beard]

I dont think Century was trying to say Mike killed SMiLE so much as bring up the point "who is Mike (or anyone, really) to throw someone out for 'bad attitude'?" I cant speak for Al's behavior. Maybe he really was insufferable, and in that case I understand the need to at least give him a stern talking to about it. Throwing him out seems extreme tho, unless they tried reasoning with him often before and he didnt listen.

I'm guessing every effort was made to try work things out with Al. Still, communication has never been this band's forte.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

I dont think Century was trying to say Mike killed SMiLE so much as bring up the point "who is Mike (or anyone, really) to throw someone out for 'bad attitude'?" I cant speak for Al's behavior. Maybe he really was insufferable, and in that case I understand the need to at least give him a stern talking to about it. Throwing him out seems extreme tho, unless they tried reasoning with him often before and he didnt listen.

I'm guessing every effort was made to try work things out with Al. Still, communication has never been this band's forte.

I would hope so. As someone else said, this period seems to be poorly documented.

[Cam Mott]

I think if anything, you saying it only charted after the movie helps my original point tho.

I said it was already charting before the movie was released.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

"This was released in July 1988, but it went nowhere until the movie came out a few months later and made it a huge hit. When The Beach Boys played it live during concerts that summer, it got no response"

^Found this on songfacts and got a chuckle. Isn't it well known that they invited Brian to the Kokomo sessions only at the last minute so he wouldn't make it?

And if true, this really should have made it obvious to everyone that it was the movie exposure, not the songs merits, that made Kokomo a #1 hit. It really was a fluke success and it's a shame Mike was so blinded by ego he couldn't see it or wouldn't admit it.

"Kokomo" released July 18th

Cocktail released July 29th (hardly "a few months later": try "eleven days later")

"Kokomo" debuts on Billboard Hot 100 September 3rd, at #96

If the movie was solely, or even mainly, responsible for the song's popularity, why didn't it chart early August ?  It surely helped, but nopt as much as many would assume.

Moral: don't believe everything  you read on the internet.

I agree, it certainly wasn't the way that said. I'm sure the movie helped but probably not as much as some fans want to think.

Kokomo was already getting airplay by the earliest of August. It was already at #22 in Easton PA on August 1. In Milwaukee it started at #29 on August 5 and was #1 by September 23 and then for several weeks.

I wonder if it opened in limited or wide release? I wonder what percentage of the record's buyers were too young to have seen the movie?  How many people on this board bought it because it was in the movie?

Seems to me it got the big numbers after the movie came out according to you. Not months later as songfacts said, but still a few days/weeks for that to get it out there to people. Im willing to admit the movie probably didnt solely skyrocket it to the top as I initially believed, but it's foolish to think it didnt help alot.

[guitarfool2002]

The "facts" being cited here are a little shaky. Let me go through just a few here and see how it shakes out. Keep in mind, this is for the US charts, the US market, and what some of us in the US followed as it was happening.

Don't always trust Wikipedia.

The soundtrack to Cocktail went at least quadruple platinum in the US. Sales over 4 million as of the beginning of the year 1989. The film Cocktail grossed almost 80 million at the box office by 1989. The soundtrack spun TWO hit #1 singles off the album, Kokomo and "Don't Worry Be Happy" by Bobby McFerrin. Remember that?

McFerrin already had his song out too, on his own album. The video didn't even feature images or even a hint of the film Kokomo, instead it had McFerrin barefoot and in a white suit clowning around with Robin Williams for most of it.

After the song was featured in the film, it really started to take off and gained momentum through the summer. By that fall it reached #1 on Billboard's hot 100 chart displacing GnR "Sweet Child O Mine" the last week of September 1988.

So the film...and the label who released the soundtrack Elektra...took the Cocktail film imagery and vibe and put it into the video for Kokomo by The Beach Boys.

In November Kokomo peaked at #1. The Cocktail soundtrack spun two #1 hit singles off the same album, not done since Prince's Purple Rain.

That's how it worked, at least in those pre-internet days. A film would both drive and boost a song which a band or an artist would have placed. If the film was a summer box office hit as Cocktail was (almost 80 million in 1988's dollar value), if the soundtrack sold over 4 million copies...

That's right - 4 million copies. With two #1 hits spun from it...

...then how in any way can this be "spun" into saying the film did not drive the success of the song? People saw the film, they liked the soundtrack, 4 million people bought it in the six months from summer to Christmas 1988...The Beach Boys got a #1 that November following Bobby McFerrin a month prior.

Simple facts.

Now - When was Still Cruisin released? A year after Cocktail. Capitol gave them THAT one album deal with a future option on the strength and success of Kokomo hitting #1, and this was also a way for Capitol to ensure sales since *Beach Boys fans* could buy a Beach Boys album with the hit single Kokomo included, for the first time. Until late summer 1989, Kokomo was only available on Elektra's soundtrack album from the film. When Kokomo first came out to coincide with the movie, what label were the Beach Boys on? None. Look it up.

Elektra released it with Little Richard's original version of Tutti Frutti as the B side, as the single from the soundtrack. The Beach Boys were not signed to Elektra. But it was released to time with the film, then it caught steam and by November it hit #1. When did the video, featuring imagery from the Cocktail film, hit MTV? When did it start going into heavier rotation? Look that up.

McFerrin was on the Cocktail soundtrack, then the exposure via that soundtrack and film drove buyers to both his own album and the single spun off that album by his label. That was a win-win, but Elektra didn't put their film imagery into a video for McFerrin, rather it went to the Beach Boys clip.

It's the domino effect. When something sells, it has the ripples effect on other fronts and with other interests. MTV too.

So anyone trying to say Cocktail didn't drive the song Kokomo...that's just not true.

[Cam Mott]

To Mujan:

Did you not read earlier every word I said just like that, it's not that complicated!

(and scene)

Just kidding. But really, I had said almost the same thing: "I agree, it certainly wasn't the way that said. I'm sure the movie helped but probably not as much as some fans want to think."

[tpesky]

If things were really THAT bad with Al, they certainly seemed to get fixed quickly enough where Al didn't really miss much time and they were able to function for a few more years, with Al even spearheading the 93 box set tour.

[guitarfool2002]

Cam, you are wrong. Who or what funded and created the MTV video for Kokomo? Where did the budget to shoot that video and use images from the film come from?

It was promoting the song, the soundtrack, and the film. That's where the budget came from, that's where the marketing and promotions came from, that's what drove the single to #1 by the fall.

Some things can't be spun. This is one of them. No Cocktail film, no Kokomo. Period. The film promotions and marketing bankrolled the thing, including the video which was promoting the film.

I know the truth sometimes hurts, but for the life of me I don't understand why this topic is being spun and twisted this way when the facts are all there.

Prove me wrong.

[Moon Dawg]

none of them had the chops to make a great album by themselves by that point.

Then how did they sell Capitol on the deal that got mentioned in the 1989 article I posted? Capitol was banking on the momentum that the band apparently could deliver after Kokomo, Mike seemed to have a similar "team" in place as what delivered Kokomo (minus Brian's involvement as he outlined in interviews from that time)...Bruce didn't want to become a traveling oldies revue but instead wanted to get radio airplay and have hits and great songs, again according to what he said as of May 1989...so what happened?

Capitol didn't pick up on the contract option that was Summer In Paradise, they wouldn't take it, hence the "Brother Entertainment" label. "Still Cruisin" doesn't seem to have become what it was being planned as according to that description as of May 1989. Lack of material? If Kokomo was the mandate, if as Mike suggested Brian needed the Beach Boys more than they needed him in the wake of Kokomo and BW88, why didn't it work?

Where was the material that would seem to have come from the same sources that generated the #1 hit Kokomo?

Capitol is excited about Kokomo and the prospect of the involvement of the talents of Brian, Mike, Melcher and "all of the Beach Boys" on its follow up.  Capitol's David Berman makes it clear in that article that Brian's involvement was extremely important to the Capitol-album-with-an-option deal.  

All of them were involved for Still Cruisin, so why didn't Capitol exercise it's option?

They passed on Summer In Paradise, and wouldn't agree to handle it which is why "Brother Entertainment" got it. The only threadbare connection to Capitol would be after the US releases bombed, EMI picked it up for European market distribution but only after it was given remixes and other changes to try to market it a certain way. That failed too. But that explains why you'll see "EMI" on certain releases, this was after the remixes and done for Europe.

So perhaps Capitol passed on it because they didn't think it would sell? And because, just perhaps, one of the biggest marketing strengths in selling a Beach Boys album that was mentioned in 1989 wasn't included on this album? Initials BW.

I imagine SC, even with the required BW and all the participation of the others they desired, was a disappointment and would be grounds to not exercise an option.  

I doubt Capitol even ever heard SIP, since they had stipulated Brian's participation was needed long before anything was recorded. SC had already crashed two years before SIP was started.  I'm thinking Capitol just never exercised its option on the strength of SC's poor performance even with the initials BW.  After that market performance, why would Capitol even consider a second album from the BBs  at all especially without the required (way in advance) Brian in it?  

  Perhaps already covered, but STILL CRUISIN' was not a commercial flop. It peaked at #46 and sold maybe 400,000 copies.

[Cam Mott]

How many singles were there from Cocktail? Was "Wild Again" a single from the movie in 1988?

[Cam Mott]

Prove me wrong.

I read your opinions. Did you read mine?

"I'm sure the movie helped but probably not as much as some fans want to think."

[Moon Dawg]

"This was released in July 1988, but it went nowhere until the movie came out a few months later and made it a huge hit. When The Beach Boys played it live during concerts that summer, it got no response"

^Found this on songfacts and got a chuckle. Isn't it well known that they invited Brian to the Kokomo sessions only at the last minute so he wouldn't make it?

And if true, this really should have made it obvious to everyone that it was the movie exposure, not the songs merits, that made Kokomo a #1 hit. It really was a fluke success and it's a shame Mike was so blinded by ego he couldn't see it or wouldn't admit it.

  I disagree. "Kokomo" transcended its origins as a tune from the COCKTAIL soundtrack early on. The song is bigger than the movie, which few reference today, even when discussing Tom Cruise and his career.

[guitarfool2002]

Hey Cam, and anyone else trying to argue this, watch this video. Do you see the scenes from the movie Cocktail mixed in with the Beach Boys footage?

Case closed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJWmbLS2_ec

[Tord]

http://www.icondv.com/interviews/brian-wilson-06-2015.html

Tord - could you please put that link on the "why you hate Mike" thread?

It's current, with Brian's opinion of his cousin.

Thanks. 

[guitarfool2002]

"This was released in July 1988, but it went nowhere until the movie came out a few months later and made it a huge hit. When The Beach Boys played it live during concerts that summer, it got no response"

^Found this on songfacts and got a chuckle. Isn't it well known that they invited Brian to the Kokomo sessions only at the last minute so he wouldn't make it?

And if true, this really should have made it obvious to everyone that it was the movie exposure, not the songs merits, that made Kokomo a #1 hit. It really was a fluke success and it's a shame Mike was so blinded by ego he couldn't see it or wouldn't admit it.

  I disagree. "Kokomo" transcended its origins as a tune from the COCKTAIL soundtrack early on. The song is bigger than the movie, which few reference today, even when discussing Tom Cruise and his career.

How many film soundtracks sell 4 million copies and spin two #1 singles off them? The movie in 1988 was a summer blockbuster, the critics panned it but close to 80 million was pulled in at the box office. The singles didn't hit #1 until Sept and Nov 1988. What transcended what, exactly? Both the film and the soundtrack were commercial hits.

[clack]

And 'Still Cruisin' was on the Lethal Weapon2 soundtrack, a movie that made over 150 million domestically -- a huge hit -- and yet the single only made  #93 on the charts.

It's not exposure only that made Kokomo a hit -- people really enjoyed it.

[Cam Mott]

"This was released in July 1988, but it went nowhere until the movie came out a few months later and made it a huge hit. When The Beach Boys played it live during concerts that summer, it got no response"

^Found this on songfacts and got a chuckle. Isn't it well known that they invited Brian to the Kokomo sessions only at the last minute so he wouldn't make it?

And if true, this really should have made it obvious to everyone that it was the movie exposure, not the songs merits, that made Kokomo a #1 hit. It really was a fluke success and it's a shame Mike was so blinded by ego he couldn't see it or wouldn't admit it.

  I disagree. "Kokomo" transcended its origins as a tune from the COCKTAIL soundtrack early on. The song is bigger than the movie, which few reference today, even when discussing Tom Cruise and his career.

How many film soundtracks sell 4 million copies and spin two #1 singles off them? The movie in 1988 was a summer blockbuster, the critics panned it but close to 80 million was pulled in at the box office. The singles didn't hit #1 until Sept and Nov 1988. What transcended what, exactly? Both the film and the soundtrack were commercial hits.

The kind of single that is going to be a hit on its own merits as a Popular song in spite of it being in a video or movie or not?

[guitarfool2002]

Who said anything about people enjoying it? The bizarre thing here is that people like Cam are arguing or trying to spin what is a fact that anyone can see by watching the video. Cocktail drove Kokomo, the song wouldn't exist nor would it have gotten the exposure or the type of video it received had it not been for the film. See Tom Cruise and scenes from the film in the Kokomo video? Again, case closed.

What I'm trying to understand is why try to spin if not change the facts over this of all topics? Kokomo was driven by, created for, and bankrolled for the promotion of the film Cocktail, as soundtrack albums and singles most often are and have been for decades. That's how things are done in the film and music business. The soundtrack sold 4 million in 6 months, the film did 78 million in 6 months...now what did this have to do with the Beach Boys, who didn't even have a label when the single came out on Elektra?

No Cocktail, no Kokomo. Period, end of story. Or, prove me wrong.

[GhostyTMRS]

This is a case where AGD and GF are both right. "Kokomo" was certainly helped by the success of the film "Cocktail". Back then (pre-internet days for you kiddies) a hit movie was like it's own social media juggernaut. No matter how long the film actually stayed in theaters, the soundtrack album would perpetuate the film's brand much longer, there were TV tie-ins and then (like today) a second round of promotion tied in to the home video release. These were huge deals at the time. I know that the movie "White Knights" didn't hang around theaters for very long, but the Phil Collins/Marilyn Martin song "Separate Lives" and Lionel Richie's "Say You Say Me" were on MTV for months...and MTV wasn't the only outlet. NBC had Friday Night Videos which kept things going, and not to mention the all the smaller music video shows on syndicated channels.

But my 6 year old nieces would never have heard of the film "Cocktail" or even known what a cocktail was and they were bopping around singing it for months. Yes, people genuinely LOVED that song and still do (it probably gets more rotation on oldies stations these days than ever before, since the 80's are now oldies and stations try to avoid playing 60's music). When the reunited Beach Boys played Bonnaroo and started up "Kokomo" the audience went apesh*t. I doubt many if any of those 20-something had ever seen "Cocktail" or associated that song with the movie. The movie's kind of forgotten but the song certainly lives on.            

[guitarfool2002]

"This was released in July 1988, but it went nowhere until the movie came out a few months later and made it a huge hit. When The Beach Boys played it live during concerts that summer, it got no response"

^Found this on songfacts and got a chuckle. Isn't it well known that they invited Brian to the Kokomo sessions only at the last minute so he wouldn't make it?

And if true, this really should have made it obvious to everyone that it was the movie exposure, not the songs merits, that made Kokomo a #1 hit. It really was a fluke success and it's a shame Mike was so blinded by ego he couldn't see it or wouldn't admit it.

  I disagree. "Kokomo" transcended its origins as a tune from the COCKTAIL soundtrack early on. The song is bigger than the movie, which few reference today, even when discussing Tom Cruise and his career.

How many film soundtracks sell 4 million copies and spin two #1 singles off them? The movie in 1988 was a summer blockbuster, the critics panned it but close to 80 million was pulled in at the box office. The singles didn't hit #1 until Sept and Nov 1988. What transcended what, exactly? Both the film and the soundtrack were commercial hits.

The kind of single that is going to be a hit on its own merits as a Popular song in spite of it being in a video or movie?

Oh, sure. Keep spinning, Cam. THAT, what you just wrote, is a ridiculous attempt to rewrite what actually happened in 1988. Name me a #1 single from 1988 that didn't have a video on MTV driving it. And look what the Kokomo video that was on MTV in 1988 was all about. Clue: The film Cocktail.

[guitarfool2002]

This is a case where AGD and GF are both right. "Kokomo" was certainly helped by the success of the film "Cocktail". Back then (pre-internet days for you kiddies) a hit movie was like it's own social media juggernaut. No matter how long the film actually stayed in theaters, the soundtrack album would perpetuate the film's brand much longer, there were TV tie-ins and then (like today) a second round of promotion tied in to the home video release. These were huge deals at the time. I know that the movie "White Knights" didn't hang around theaters for very long, but the Phil Collins/Marilyn Martin song "Separate Lives" and Lionel Richie's "Say You Say Me" were on MTV for months...and MTV wasn't the only outlet. NBC had Friday Night Videos which kept things going, and not to mention the all the smaller music video shows on syndicated channels.

But my 6 year old nieces would never have heard of the film "Cocktail" or even known what a cocktail was and they were bopping around singing it for months. Yes, people genuinely LOVED that song and still do (it probably gets more rotation on oldies stations these days than ever before, since the 80's are now oldies and stations try to avoid playing 60's music). When the reunited Beach Boys played Bonnaroo and started up "Kokomo" the audience went apesh*t. I doubt many if any of those 20-something had ever seen "Cocktail" or associated that song with the movie. The movie's kind of forgotten but the song certainly lives on.            

See, we were around in those years. We remember this and were at the age where discovering music was still fun even before it became a passion. Remember Miami Vice? Record labels were literally fighting to get a song placed on that show at one point. Look what it did for Phil Collins, Glen Frey, even Jan Hammer with his theme song that charted. It was an ultimate sales-driver in that era, along with MTV, along with soundtrack placement, the whole works.

But unlike AGD who may not have experienced this as we did in the US when it was all happening in 1988 and we were the MTV and blockbuster-movie-at-the-mall's-theater demographic, I know the film and that film's soundtrack were the main driving forces, and the MTV video which helped immensely was essentially a 4-minute long commercial for the movie as much as it was to promote the song and Elektra's soundtrack which contained it.

How was the reception to the song in 2012 when the reunited Beach Boys played Kokomo in the UK on those C50 dates?