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Author Topic: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?  (Read 22214 times)
Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again
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« Reply #175 on: November 04, 2014, 12:03:31 PM »

Can I ask everyone a question in relation to the "driving Brian to tears" thing?

Generally, in life, are we always directly responsible for how any given person reacts to what we might say to them? If we say mean things to them, insult them, make fun of them: sure, we likely intended to hurt them, therefore them being driven to tears is something we are directly responsible for.... Now, in the Darlin/TTGA situation, we DO NOT know what was said to Brian or what Brian said to Mike or Carl. We can assume something along the lines of "hey, we (The Beach Boys) should be doing these songs, blah blah, which is not an example of someone being mean, horrible, or out to hurt anyone.

Just something to consider before Carl becomes the next big slobbering and evil Beach Boys villain!

Blaming Mike for everything is already a religion basically, so we'll forget about him for the moment.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2014, 12:04:25 PM by Pinder Goes To Kokomo » Logged
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« Reply #176 on: November 04, 2014, 12:05:01 PM »


So maybe the Redwood incident was as simple as a disagreement. Brian was using their song for Redwood but in this case Mike, a co-author, and the other(s) possibly wanted to use it for the Boys.

The "Redwood incident" did not involve the song Darlin alone, are you forgetting or leaving out the song "Time To Get Alone"? That was a produced recording which was written by Brian and actually had gone beyond the "guide vocal" stage to the point where those mid-October sessions at Heider's were finalizing the track. At that point in time, Darlin was basically a track with a guide vocal, and Time To Get Alone was having the finishing touches added at Wally Heider's in mid October '67. The scene where the Beach Boys - Carl and Mike - came to the studio during a Redwood session happened at Heider's.

If it were a case of a disagreement over a song which possibly had co-writing issues in play, then why or how did a song which Brian alone wrote and produced and was finishing up for Redwood in line with the agreed structure of Brother Records opening up the opportunity for this to happen wind up getting swept up in the whole thing?

With Time To Get Alone, it was at that point a mostly finished track, again written and produced by Brian and slated for Redwood in line with how Brother was to be run, if you believe Mike's own description of it which I posted earlier.

So again, short of specific proof of who wrote what for Darlin or trying to pin down the original purpose or intended use of that song, how would you (or anyone) say Time To Get Alone became a part of this so-called "disagreement" if the song was Brian's and Brian's alone?

We're putting all the focus on Darlin and leaving Time To Get Alone out of the equation, when TTGA is a major part of what happened.
With Time To Get Alone, could it be that there were no issues and that after Redwood stopped working with Brian that they didn't take it with them when they got there new deal as Three Dog Night?

Time To Get Alone was a major part of the issue in general: Carl and Mike took the tapes, and took what was slated to be a Redwood song and production with them. They had nothing with that recording at that point to take with them even if they wanted to.

And again, this was a song which was mostly finished, and which had nothing to do with even the possibility that a co-authorship or intended use for the band was causing some kind of disagreement that led to this. TTGA was Brian's song and Brian's production for an artist he wanted to bring onto the Brother label, and basically the Beach Boys called an end to the whole process and took the tapes with them, as of Fall 1967. Redwood was left with nothing to carry with them in terms of a release or anything to take to another interested party, it basically ended at Heider's studio that day when Carl and Mike came in.
I always thought that that whole scene was mostly over Darlin' and TTGA was just along for the ride. Darlin' was the tune that was recorded and released right away, while TTGA was more than a year away from getting released.

But consider the importance of TTGA to Brian in all of this. There was a lot of work put into that recording, and more. Consider too that the Beach Boys took the master tapes for TTGA which unlike Darlin was all but finished for Redwood and with Redwood's vocals in the process of being finalized (we can hear that mix in 2014) and which the Beach Boys had no involvement in. If that is the suggestion with Darlin, that in some way the Beach Boys felt they could stake a claim in Darlin as something they could take and use via songwriting credits or other issues, TTGA had no ties at all in that way to the group, yet the song and the master tapes got taken along with Darlin by the group.

TTGA was slated to be a Redwood song, again with no BB's involvement up to that point in terms of creating it, and Brian was following the Brother template by producing it for an outside artist. Somehow that leads to the master tapes of TTGA being taken? Again, that still needs to be explained to me.
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« Reply #177 on: November 04, 2014, 12:11:52 PM »


But Darlin' is the one Hutton singles out in regard to the "problem" in your link and it is the one that showed up on the next album. TTGA doesn't show up for two albums over a year later, what says it was part of the incident?

They took the master tapes. It was key to the incident. The sessions that led to Carl and Mike calling an end to it were for TTGA. The last sessions at Heider's or in general that were done with Redwood were for TTGA. How is it not a part of what happened?

Again, why have you not mentioned TTGA while focusing squarely on Darlin' and the potential reasoning that songwriting or lyric credits were one of the core reasons why all this happened? If TTGA were not a major part of this, why did the master tapes go with Carl and Mike and why were the Redwood sessions for TTGA when it was in its final stages the ones that got called to a halt by the Beach Boys?
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« Reply #178 on: November 04, 2014, 12:15:05 PM »


So maybe the Redwood incident was as simple as a disagreement. Brian was using their song for Redwood but in this case Mike, a co-author, and the other(s) possibly wanted to use it for the Boys.

The "Redwood incident" did not involve the song Darlin alone, are you forgetting or leaving out the song "Time To Get Alone"? That was a produced recording which was written by Brian and actually had gone beyond the "guide vocal" stage to the point where those mid-October sessions at Heider's were finalizing the track. At that point in time, Darlin was basically a track with a guide vocal, and Time To Get Alone was having the finishing touches added at Wally Heider's in mid October '67. The scene where the Beach Boys - Carl and Mike - came to the studio during a Redwood session happened at Heider's.

If it were a case of a disagreement over a song which possibly had co-writing issues in play, then why or how did a song which Brian alone wrote and produced and was finishing up for Redwood in line with the agreed structure of Brother Records opening up the opportunity for this to happen wind up getting swept up in the whole thing?

With Time To Get Alone, it was at that point a mostly finished track, again written and produced by Brian and slated for Redwood in line with how Brother was to be run, if you believe Mike's own description of it which I posted earlier.

So again, short of specific proof of who wrote what for Darlin or trying to pin down the original purpose or intended use of that song, how would you (or anyone) say Time To Get Alone became a part of this so-called "disagreement" if the song was Brian's and Brian's alone?

We're putting all the focus on Darlin and leaving Time To Get Alone out of the equation, when TTGA is a major part of what happened.
With Time To Get Alone, could it be that there were no issues and that after Redwood stopped working with Brian that they didn't take it with them when they got there new deal as Three Dog Night?

Time To Get Alone was a major part of the issue in general: Carl and Mike took the tapes, and took what was slated to be a Redwood song and production with them. They had nothing with that recording at that point to take with them even if they wanted to.

And again, this was a song which was mostly finished, and which had nothing to do with even the possibility that a co-authorship or intended use for the band was causing some kind of disagreement that led to this. TTGA was Brian's song and Brian's production for an artist he wanted to bring onto the Brother label, and basically the Beach Boys called an end to the whole process and took the tapes with them, as of Fall 1967. Redwood was left with nothing to carry with them in terms of a release or anything to take to another interested party, it basically ended at Heider's studio that day when Carl and Mike came in.
I always thought that that whole scene was mostly over Darlin' and TTGA was just along for the ride. Darlin' was the tune that was recorded and released right away, while TTGA was more than a year away from getting released.

But consider the importance of TTGA to Brian in all of this. There was a lot of work put into that recording, and more. Consider too that the Beach Boys took the master tapes for TTGA which unlike Darlin was all but finished for Redwood and with Redwood's vocals in the process of being finalized (we can hear that mix in 2014) and which the Beach Boys had no involvement in. If that is the suggestion with Darlin, that in some way the Beach Boys felt they could stake a claim in Darlin as something they could take and use via songwriting credits or other issues, TTGA had no ties at all in that way to the group, yet the song and the master tapes got taken along with Darlin by the group.

TTGA was slated to be a Redwood song, again with no BB's involvement up to that point in terms of creating it, and Brian was following the Brother template by producing it for an outside artist. Somehow that leads to the master tapes of TTGA being taken? Again, that still needs to be explained to me.

Well, if the tapes were no longer going to be used by Redwood, what else was going to happen to them?

So you're focusing on one song which was finished and released later while ignoring the other song related to the incident which has logical motivation behind it, for Mike, a least? .... Um OK.

Isn't Desper on record talking about The Beach Boys re-recording the backing tracks for TTGA?
« Last Edit: November 04, 2014, 12:19:39 PM by Pinder Goes To Kokomo » Logged
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« Reply #179 on: November 04, 2014, 12:19:49 PM »

Based on the youtube clip, he only mentions Mike as rubbing people the wrong way and Mike having vocalizing a problem with those songs going to Redwood. He mentions Carl as being the referee so I would assume Carl went along to be a mediator and make sure things didn't get too out of hand. We don't really know if it did or didn't since we don't really know how much (or little) it would have taken on that day to bring Brian to tears.

If Mike was listed as co writer for Darlin' and Redwood recorded it while signed to Brothers Records, Mike still would have seen financial gain from them getting the song. I can understand wanting a hit song for yourself but it's not like Brian was throwing it in the wind with no financial gain from it. But like guitarfool mentioned, it doesn't explain why they left with the TTGA tapes considering they had no hand in writing the tune. I could be wrong but for a short period of time, wasn't there the idea of TTGA going to be released as a single? I thought I'd read somewhere the before or after a show Carl mentioned to someone that TTGA would be the next single. It never happened but if they thought that it had the potential to be a single, it might explain why they wanted that song as well.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2014, 12:23:15 PM by lee » Logged
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« Reply #180 on: November 04, 2014, 12:26:32 PM »

Based on the youtube clip, he only mentions Mike as rubbing people the wrong way and Mike having vocalizing a problem with those songs going to Redwood. He mentions Carl as being the referee so I would assume Carl went along to be a mediator and make sure things didn't get too out of hand. We don't really know if it did or didn't since we don't really know how much (or little) it would have taken on that day to bring Brian to tears.

If Mike was listed as co writer for Darlin' and Redwood recorded it while signed to Brothers Records, Mike still would have seen financial gain from them getting the song. I can understand wanting a hit song for yourself but it's not like Brian was throwing it in the wind with no financial gain from it. But like guitarfool mentioned, it doesn't explain why they left with the TTGA tapes considering they had no hand in writing the tune. I could be wrong but for a short period of time, wasn't there the idea of TTGA going to be released as a single? I thought I'd read somewhere the before or after a show Carl mentioned to someone that TTGA would be the next single. It never happened but if they thought that it had the potential to be a single, it might explain why they wanted that song as well.

As co-writer of the tune is it insane to imagine Mike just wanted to get to sing on it himself and have his band do it?
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« Reply #181 on: November 04, 2014, 12:33:48 PM »

Both bands could have released the song

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alf wiedersehen
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« Reply #182 on: November 04, 2014, 12:34:31 PM »

Both bands could have released the song



One single would suffer due to the other.
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« Reply #183 on: November 04, 2014, 12:39:15 PM »


Well, if the tapes were no longer going to be used by Redwood, what else was going to happen to them?

So you're focusing on one song which was finished and released later while ignoring the other song related to the incident which has logical motivation behind it, for Mike, a least? .... Um OK.

Isn't Desper on record talking about The Beach Boys re-recording the backing tracks for TTGA?


I wasn't even going to reply to something like this, but do you think those of us reading this thread are idiots or something? The TTGA tapes were currently in use by Redwood in October 67, were being worked on by Brian and Redwood at Heider's, and were slated to be a Redwood project of some kind when Carl and Mike took the masters and ended the work being done by Brian for Redwood. Is that not clear enough?

And how am I ignoring the other song Darlin when I wrote at least two paragraphs or more about it and its construction back on page 2? For f***'s sake.

If it's at a point where common sense is being challenged like this in order to make a point or to further deviate from what the original issues are and were, we're seriously f***ed. And I mean that.
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"There was no up front fees, period. swedishfrog  and I paid for the domain name. As of June 19, 2016 at 4:32pm edt, that is all I was charged for." - Dr. Beach Boy
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« Reply #184 on: November 04, 2014, 12:44:55 PM »


But Darlin' is the one Hutton singles out in regard to the "problem" in your link and it is the one that showed up on the next album. TTGA doesn't show up for two albums over a year later, what says it was part of the incident?

They took the master tapes. It was key to the incident. The sessions that led to Carl and Mike calling an end to it were for TTGA. The last sessions at Heider's or in general that were done with Redwood were for TTGA. How is it not a part of what happened?

Again, why have you not mentioned TTGA while focusing squarely on Darlin' and the potential reasoning that songwriting or lyric credits were one of the core reasons why all this happened? If TTGA were not a major part of this, why did the master tapes go with Carl and Mike and why were the Redwood sessions for TTGA when it was in its final stages the ones that got called to a halt by the Beach Boys?

GuitarFool;  I don't think "Darlin'" was the big issue for Brian ; he absolutely loves that tune and there are really no bad memories associated with "Darlin'" that I have ever heard him mention. I have never heard him say a word about Redwood/Three Dog Night in association with "Darlin'". My recollection is that the title was based on Danny calling everyone Darlin' ; I don't know if the lyrics were rewritten by Brian after Mike wrote the lyrics to Thinkin'Bout You Baby", or if Mike did the rewrite as well. For all any of us know , Brian had "Darlin'" planned for The Beach Boys all along , and was just experimenting with Redwood to see how it would sound. Pure speculation there.

"Time To Get Alone" is another story altogether.  There was/is a negativity for Brian about TTGA that was close to "Heroes and Villains" proportion.  It was a major struggle to get him to perform TTGA live; it all centered around the events at Wally Heider's and Danny. That was a repeated theme over the years anytime you would bring up TTGA to Brian; Wally Heider's, Mike and Carl, Danny being really pissed at him... The most detail I ever heard about it is what I passed on the other day.  One thing is for certain. Something bad happened to Brian in that booth at Heider's to have him still addressing it with Danny forty one fucking years later.  
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« Reply #185 on: November 04, 2014, 12:47:47 PM »


Well, if the tapes were no longer going to be used by Redwood, what else was going to happen to them?

So you're focusing on one song which was finished and released later while ignoring the other song related to the incident which has logical motivation behind it, for Mike, a least? .... Um OK.

Isn't Desper on record talking about The Beach Boys re-recording the backing tracks for TTGA?


I wasn't even going to reply to something like this, but do you think those of us reading this thread are idiots or something? The TTGA tapes were currently in use by Redwood in October 67, were being worked on by Brian and Redwood at Heider's, and were slated to be a Redwood project of some kind when Carl and Mike took the masters and ended the work being done by Brian for Redwood. Is that not clear enough?

And how am I ignoring the other song Darlin when I wrote at least two paragraphs or more about it and its construction back on page 2? For f***'s sake.

If it's at a point where common sense is being challenged like this in order to make a point or to further deviate from what the original issues are and were, we're seriously f***ed. And I mean that.
Look, it is two songs. So they pulled the plug on it. sh*t happened. TDN got a better deal in the end. Brian got scarred, cried, got over it, continued making records for the Beach Boys. Still got along famously with Carl (right up to Super Bowl Sunday before he passed), performed, loved and continued to be at odds with Mike Love for the next 45 years. We will never know exactly what went down, but Brian's talk with Danny that Ray relayed to us, is the real healing part of this story. If they're OK, I'm OK.
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And Forgive Us Our Bootlegs,
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« Reply #186 on: November 04, 2014, 12:48:20 PM »


Well, if the tapes were no longer going to be used by Redwood, what else was going to happen to them?

So you're focusing on one song which was finished and released later while ignoring the other song related to the incident which has logical motivation behind it, for Mike, a least? .... Um OK.

Isn't Desper on record talking about The Beach Boys re-recording the backing tracks for TTGA?


I wasn't even going to reply to something like this, but do you think those of us reading this thread are idiots or something? The TTGA tapes were currently in use by Redwood in October 67, were being worked on by Brian and Redwood at Heider's, and were slated to be a Redwood project of some kind when Carl and Mike took the masters and ended the work being done by Brian for Redwood. Is that not clear enough?

And how am I ignoring the other song Darlin when I wrote at least two paragraphs or more about it and its construction back on page 2? For f***'s sake.

If it's at a point where common sense is being challenged like this in order to make a point or to further deviate from what the original issues are and were, we're seriously f***ed. And I mean that.

Man, do you really have to fly off the handle so easily?

And just because you say something or make a statement, it does not make it the final word for everyone else.

Time To Get Over Yourself should be a tune.




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« Reply #187 on: November 04, 2014, 01:22:37 PM »


But Darlin' is the one Hutton singles out in regard to the "problem" in your link and it is the one that showed up on the next album. TTGA doesn't show up for two albums over a year later, what says it was part of the incident?

They took the master tapes. It was key to the incident. The sessions that led to Carl and Mike calling an end to it were for TTGA. The last sessions at Heider's or in general that were done with Redwood were for TTGA. How is it not a part of what happened?

Again, why have you not mentioned TTGA while focusing squarely on Darlin' and the potential reasoning that songwriting or lyric credits were one of the core reasons why all this happened? If TTGA were not a major part of this, why did the master tapes go with Carl and Mike and why were the Redwood sessions for TTGA when it was in its final stages the ones that got called to a halt by the Beach Boys?

I don't know that it was key to the incident, it may have just been collateral damage as far as I know. I am focusing on it because Hutton focuses on Darlin' in your link as the problem for Mike, Mike is a co-author of that song, Redwood was working on it, Hutton says he can see how they wanted it, it ended up on the next BB album, Hutton singles it out. Is there something else from Hutton that does specify TTGA as the, or a, problem for Mike et al?
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« Reply #188 on: November 04, 2014, 01:45:02 PM »


But Darlin' is the one Hutton singles out in regard to the "problem" in your link and it is the one that showed up on the next album. TTGA doesn't show up for two albums over a year later, what says it was part of the incident?

They took the master tapes. It was key to the incident. The sessions that led to Carl and Mike calling an end to it were for TTGA. The last sessions at Heider's or in general that were done with Redwood were for TTGA. How is it not a part of what happened?

Again, why have you not mentioned TTGA while focusing squarely on Darlin' and the potential reasoning that songwriting or lyric credits were one of the core reasons why all this happened? If TTGA were not a major part of this, why did the master tapes go with Carl and Mike and why were the Redwood sessions for TTGA when it was in its final stages the ones that got called to a halt by the Beach Boys?

I don't know that it was key to the incident, it may have just been collateral damage as far as I know. I am focusing on it because Hutton focuses on Darlin' in your link as the problem for Mike, Mike is a co-author of that song, Redwood was working on it, Hutton says he can see how they wanted it, it ended up on the next BB album, Hutton singles it out. Is there something else from Hutton that does specify TTGA as the, or a, problem for Mike et al?

That's what I was trying to say.... If the Redwood thing is off and then two albums later there's still this beautiful Brian song laying around, tapes or no tapes, why on earth wouldn't The Beach Boys record it?

Once again, am I crazy or did Desper go into detail about The Beach Boys re-recording the TTGA backing tracks? I even remember him talking about them taping a piece of sandpaper on Dennis' snare head for him to scrape w his stick.

This isn't me refusing to heed to Guitarfool, but just an additional point being made and other questions being asked.


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« Reply #189 on: November 04, 2014, 01:48:47 PM »


As co-writer of the tune is it insane to imagine Mike just wanted to get to sing on it himself and have his band do it?


It makes sense and isn't insane at all.

What I think is a bit much is IF Mike flew off the handle about it considering it was a rewrite of an old song The Beach Boys hadn't used. It would be a different scenario if Brian and Mike had written Darlin' specifically for The Beach Boys the week prior and then Brian was recording it behind his back with a different band.
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« Reply #190 on: November 04, 2014, 01:57:53 PM »


As co-writer of the tune is it insane to imagine Mike just wanted to get to sing on it himself and have his band do it?


It makes sense and isn't insane at all.

What I think is a bit much is IF Mike flew off the handle about it considering it was a rewrite of an old song The Beach Boys hadn't used. It would be a different scenario if Brian and Mike had written Darlin' specifically for The Beach Boys the week prior and then Brian was recording it behind his back with a different band.

It being a damn good song might have something to do with it as well
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« Reply #191 on: November 04, 2014, 02:21:14 PM »


Once again, am I crazy or did Desper go into detail about The Beach Boys re-recording the TTGA backing tracks? I even remember him talking about them taping a piece of sandpaper on Dennis' snare head for him to scrape w his stick.
 


I would have to assume that the attempted re-recording of TTGA (regarded by basically everyone as inferior) has got to have something to do with the entire hurtful to Brian kerfuffle regarding this song.  It would be quite interesting to learn more about why the band tried to re-record it.

I'd be very surprised if that was a wholly independent situation, and not intertwined with the extraction of Brian and the song from the Redwood situation.

Also - since the song became such a painful episode for Brian, could Brian's wishes be a reason why the song was (surprisingly) not released as a single?

We've heard people (I believe Mr. Desper?) say that this tune was tinkered with more than just about any other tune in the band's catalog, and it obviously is a really, really good song, especially for the band at the time. All the more surprising/baffling why it wasn't released as a single. Not that the band hasn't done more than its fair share of baffling choices of what to release/not to release, but the pieces of logical motivation seem to fit together on this.
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« Reply #192 on: November 04, 2014, 02:29:09 PM »


It being a damn good song might have something to do with it as well

Indeed. I don`t think anyone argues that it is certainly the most advanced production of that time and it is the most commercial single that they could have released. The fact that Brian was spending more time on effort on an outside project than he was on The Beach Boys stuff at the time was bound to be a problem for them and certainly marks this out as very different from the early 1960s period.
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« Reply #193 on: November 04, 2014, 02:30:20 PM »


Once again, am I crazy or did Desper go into detail about The Beach Boys re-recording the TTGA backing tracks? I even remember him talking about them taping a piece of sandpaper on Dennis' snare head for him to scrape w his stick.
 


I would have to assume that the attempted re-recording of TTGA (regarded by basically everyone as inferior) has got to have something to do with the entire hurtful to Brian kerfuffle regarding this song.  It would be quite interesting to learn more about why the band tried to re-record it.

I'd be very surprised if that was a wholly independent situation, and not intertwined with the extraction of Brian and the song from the Redwood situation.

Also - since the song became such a painful episode for Brian, could Brian's wishes be a reason why the song was (surprisingly) not released as a single?

We've heard people (I believe Mr. Desper?) say that this tune was tinkered with more than just about any other tune in the band's catalog, and it obviously is a really, really good song, especially for the band at the time. All the more surprising/baffling why it wasn't released as a single. Not that the band hasn't done more than its fair share of baffling choices of what to release/not to release, but the pieces of logical motivation seem to fit together on this.

Very well put, CD.

For some reason this makes me think of Tevor Horn talking about  Yes and Owner Of A Lonely Heart.

He basically begged/forced the band to record the song and Tevor Rabin had his feelings hurt that Horn made him re-write the lyrics and not allow a big booming snare sound. Alan White was pissed that he had to record his drums piecemeal, Jon Anderson was pissed that they didn't want him to re-write the lyrics yet agsin, but he persisted until he wore everyone down and forced in the "eagle in the sky" line. In response, Horn snuck in a rifle blast sound effect in order to symbolicaly "shoot down the eagle"

Point is: BANDS!!!!!






« Last Edit: November 04, 2014, 02:31:51 PM by Pinder Goes To Kokomo » Logged
lee
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« Reply #194 on: November 04, 2014, 04:05:57 PM »

I can understand being upset that someone is writing "hits" for another band while The Beach Boys are struggling. I get it. With TTGA being Brian's creation, Mike and Carl had no right leaving the studio with that tape. They can be pissed all they want but they have no right to a song they had no hand in writing. TTGA is one of my all time favorite Beach Boys songs but Brian should have told them to go !@#$ themselves.
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CenturyDeprived
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« Reply #195 on: November 04, 2014, 04:20:48 PM »

I can understand being upset that someone is writing "hits" for another band while The Beach Boys are struggling. I get it. With TTGA being Brian's creation, Mike and Carl had no right leaving the studio with that tape. They can be pissed all they want but they have no right to a song they had no hand in writing. TTGA is one of my all time favorite Beach Boys songs but Brian should have told them to go !@#$ themselves.

I agree completely (and TTGA is also one of my all time fave BB songs). While I can understand the motivations, I don't think it was right, particularly at a time when Brian was starting to emotionally unravel bit by bit. I've said it before and I'll say it again: It's my opinion that Mike in particular was the absolute wrong personality type to be together in a band with a guy like Brian past a certain point in the BBs timeline, because I don't think he "got it" then (nor now) that he could probably cause emotional damage, however inadvertent, to his emotionally vulnerable cousin. I don't think that Brian's emotional well-being was at the top of his priority list. In his defense, Mike wasn't a psych major, and was probably not raised in an environment that promoted healthy communication.  Sorry if this is a controversial opinion, but I don't feel I'm off base, based on my outside observations. I don't think Mike gets the "kid gloves" thing, or at least I don't think he "gets it" quite enough as he should.

There may or may not have been a way that they could have approached Brian which wouldn't have caused Brian so much pain. I don't know. I'm guessing that BOTH the fact that they came to take away the songs in and of itself, AND in particular the way in which it happened (very embarrassingly this happened in front of others, maybe forceful language, guilt trip stuff stung deeply)... both of these factors were likely equally significant in why Brian was hurt so much.

If Carl had come alone to convince Brian, I wonder: would he have been able to have convinced him on his own? And secondly, if he was able to, would Brian have felt hurt in quite the same way? I of course could be very wrong, but I tend to doubt it. Things to ponder. Some may want to dismiss all this as negligible, but context and tact make a BIG difference to some people. A deficiency of such can have long-lasting impacts.

I'd imagine Brian felt ganged-up to some degree on since he was outnumbered, and as Brian was well-known to want to avoid confrontation, I imagine that his bandmates knew what buttons to be pushed. It's all just sad. Again, ironically, despite that I think (from what we know about the incident) that it was just a messed-up thing to do, I am ultimately very glad that the BBs version of the song exists.

One wonders what would have happened if Dennis had been in earshot of this occurrence.  
« Last Edit: November 04, 2014, 05:21:00 PM by CenturyDeprived » Logged
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« Reply #196 on: November 04, 2014, 04:40:31 PM »

So does this mean that  Redwood and the BBs used the same track for TTGA? 
Admittedly my hearing ain't the best, but they seem different, or at the least , different mixes
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« Reply #197 on: November 04, 2014, 05:11:25 PM »

Just something to consider before Carl becomes the next big slobbering and evil Beach Boys villain!

I was almost waiting for that to happen when it was mentioned in another thread that Carl didn't want to tour Pet Sounds live in the 90's with Brian because he thought Brian would embarrass himself. I thought that was kind of funny because Brian wound up touring Pet Sounds to great acclaim and by no means embarrassed himself or anyone else. Can you imagine what the reaction would've been if Mike had said that? HOLY CRAP! lol

There's a tendency among fans to portray Carl as this Christ-like figure born without sin and waving his hand over the seas and calming them...but hey, the guy was human like everyone else and made some bad judgment calls here and there. His batting average was pretty good regardless. "Time To Get Alone" is another good one. It's sad that TTGA is, according to Ray, still a big issue for Brian because it's easily one of the greatest post-Pet Sounds Beach Boys moments IMO with a lead vocal by Carl that could melt in your mouth. Not having it in their catalog would be like saying the Mona Lisa is too good for the Louvre.
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Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again
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« Reply #198 on: November 04, 2014, 05:19:04 PM »

Yeah, and what have we learned from this thread? That The Beach Boys are meanies, especially Mike and Carl, and Brian is an innocent puppy.

Just what any happy Beach Boys fan needs!

From here on out, anyone who defends Carl will be hailed a "Carl Marxist"

« Last Edit: November 04, 2014, 05:20:21 PM by Pinder Goes To Kokomo » Logged
RBennett123
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« Reply #199 on: November 04, 2014, 05:41:29 PM »


But Darlin' is the one Hutton singles out in regard to the "problem" in your link and it is the one that showed up on the next album. TTGA doesn't show up for two albums over a year later, what says it was part of the incident?

They took the master tapes. It was key to the incident. The sessions that led to Carl and Mike calling an end to it were for TTGA. The last sessions at Heider's or in general that were done with Redwood were for TTGA. How is it not a part of what happened?

Again, why have you not mentioned TTGA while focusing squarely on Darlin' and the potential reasoning that songwriting or lyric credits were one of the core reasons why all this happened? If TTGA were not a major part of this, why did the master tapes go with Carl and Mike and why were the Redwood sessions for TTGA when it was in its final stages the ones that got called to a halt by the Beach Boys?

GuitarFool;  I don't think "Darlin'" was the big issue for Brian ; he absolutely loves that tune and there are really no bad memories associated with "Darlin'" that I have ever heard him mention. I have never heard him say a word about Redwood/Three Dog Night in association with "Darlin'". My recollection is that the title was based on Danny calling everyone Darlin' ; I don't know if the lyrics were rewritten by Brian after Mike wrote the lyrics to Thinkin'Bout You Baby", or if Mike did the rewrite as well. For all any of us know , Brian had "Darlin'" planned for The Beach Boys all along , and was just experimenting with Redwood to see how it would sound. Pure speculation there.

"Time To Get Alone" is another story altogether.  There was/is a negativity for Brian about TTGA that was close to "Heroes and Villains" proportion.  It was a major struggle to get him to perform TTGA live; it all centered around the events at Wally Heider's and Danny. That was a repeated theme over the years anytime you would bring up TTGA to Brian; Wally Heider's, Mike and Carl, Danny being really pissed at him... The most detail I ever heard about it is what I passed on the other day.  One thing is for certain. Something bad happened to Brian in that booth at Heider's to have him still addressing it with Danny forty one fucking years later.  

I love your posts, Ray.
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