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Smiley Smile Stuff => General On Topic Discussions => Topic started by: jcm on October 26, 2014, 10:55:49 PM



Title: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: jcm on October 26, 2014, 10:55:49 PM
Officially, I'm not sure if Brian is credited as having produced anything after PET SOUNDS and before 15 BIG ONES.  Unofficially, it's clear he had his hand in some sessions during the ensuing years after 1966.  The question is: which albums/songs?


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: joshferrell on October 26, 2014, 11:00:50 PM
some of "Spring/American Spring", a strange version of "Why do fools fall in love", and apparently an unreleased country album..


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on October 26, 2014, 11:15:21 PM
Officially, I'm not sure if Brian is credited as having produced anything after PET SOUNDS and before 15 BIG ONES.  Unofficially, it's clear he had his hand in some sessions during the ensuing years after 1966.  The question is: which albums/songs?

Check the credits on 20/20, and the relevant tracks as included on 10 Years Of Harmony, the 1993 box set, Endless Harmony and Hawthorne CA. I hear the album's section of this site - Bellagio 10452 (http://www.esquarterly.com/bellagio/index.html) - has additional info which, although unofficial, is drawn from most reliable sources (that is, because I damn well say so  ;D ).

May be wrong but I think he produced some ditty called "Good Vibrations"...


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇 on October 26, 2014, 11:15:48 PM
He Come Down was produced by Brian.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on October 26, 2014, 11:18:56 PM
some of "Spring/American Spring", a strange version of "Why do fools fall in love", and apparently an unreleased country album..

Well that's telling me and no mistake. Nearly 40 years a fan & researcher and I never knew those were Beach Boys projects. I'm an utter disgrace to the Researcher's Guild: I shall hand in my badge and credentials forthwith.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Jim V. on October 26, 2014, 11:20:59 PM
Well I can say that we know for sure he was credited as the produced of "Child of Winter" from 1974. So there's that.

Also, even though most (all?) of the albums from this era bore a "Produced by The Beach Boys" tag, some of the more recent collections have actually gone a bit more in depth and I'm pretty sure that a bunch of songs such as "Surf's Up", "This Whole World", "I Went To Sleep", "Funky Pretty", "'Til I Die" and a few others were credited as "Produced by Brian & Carl Wilson". Now I might be wrong as I don't have any of the liner notes in front of me, but I'm pretty sure.

some of "Spring/American Spring", a strange version of "Why do fools fall in love", and apparently an unreleased country album..

Unfortunately for you Josh, the topic was "Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?" and all the stuff you listed was non-Beach Boys. But helpful nonetheless I suppose.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇 on October 26, 2014, 11:28:06 PM
According to Peter Carlins book, Mess of Help was at least partially produced by Brian too, or at least he makes it sound as such.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on October 26, 2014, 11:44:48 PM
I'm pretty sure that a bunch of songs such as "Surf's Up", "This Whole World", "I Went To Sleep", "Funky Pretty", "'Til I Die" and a few others were credited as "Produced by Brian & Carl Wilson". Now I might be wrong as I don't have any of the liner notes in front of me, but I'm pretty sure.

You are indeed correct sir.

Rumor has it he also produced a bunch of track for an unreleased 1967 post-Pet Sounds album... but hey, what do I know ?


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: phirnis on October 26, 2014, 11:52:55 PM
Friends and Busy Doin' Nothin' come to mind.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇 on October 27, 2014, 12:40:58 AM
I'm pretty sure that a bunch of songs such as "Surf's Up", "This Whole World", "I Went To Sleep", "Funky Pretty", "'Til I Die" and a few others were credited as "Produced by Brian & Carl Wilson". Now I might be wrong as I don't have any of the liner notes in front of me, but I'm pretty sure.

You are indeed correct sir.

Rumor has it he also produced a bunch of track for an unreleased 1967 post-Pet Sounds album... but hey, what do I know ?

Oh yeah, the unreleased early Wild Honey!

:lol :D


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Jay on October 27, 2014, 12:57:11 AM
I'm pretty sure that a bunch of songs such as "Surf's Up", "This Whole World", "I Went To Sleep", "Funky Pretty", "'Til I Die" and a few others were credited as "Produced by Brian & Carl Wilson". Now I might be wrong as I don't have any of the liner notes in front of me, but I'm pretty sure.

You are indeed correct sir.

Rumor has it he also produced a bunch of track for an unreleased 1967 post-Pet Sounds album... but hey, what do I know ?

Oh yeah, the unreleased early Wild Honey!

:lol :D
Frowny Frown?  ;)


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇 on October 27, 2014, 01:10:00 AM
That's MY unreleased album, dammit :lol :lol :lol


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Alan Smith on October 27, 2014, 01:18:03 AM
Don't forget the big one - I'd Love Just Once to See You


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Jukka on October 27, 2014, 01:32:05 AM
I don't know but I'd guess he produced the music bits of Mt. Vernon, at least to some extent?


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on October 27, 2014, 09:18:13 AM
1966:
Good Vibrations

1967:
Heroes And Villains
You're Welcome
Fall Breaks... And Back To Winter
Vegetables

1968:
Wake The World
Diamond Head
Bust Doin' Nothin'
Transcendental Meditation
Do It Again (w/Carl)
Can't Wait Too Long

1969:
I Went To Sleep (w/Carl)
Cotton Fields (w/Alan)
Cabinessence (w/Carl)
Our Prayer
Break Away (w/Murry)
Games Two Can Play
Soulful Old Man Sunshine (w/Rick Henn)

1970:
This Whole World (w/Carl)
Cool, Cool Water

1971:
'Til I Die (w/Carl)
Surf's Up (w/Carl)

1972:
He Come Down (w/Carl)

1973:
Funky Pretty (w/Carl)
Mt. Vernon & Fairway (A Fairytale) (w/Carl)

1974:
Child Of Winter
We're Together Again
California Feeling

That's a rough list. Feel free to add.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Matt H on October 27, 2014, 09:32:06 AM
1966:
Good Vibrations

1967:
Heroes And Villains
You're Welcome
Fall Breaks... And Back To Winter
Vegetables

1968:
Wake The World
Diamond Head
Bust Doin' Nothin'
Transcendental Meditation
Do It Again (w/Carl)
Can't Wait Too Long

1969:
I Went To Sleep (w/Carl)
Cotton Fields (w/Alan)
Cabinessence (w/Carl)
Our Prayer
Break Away (w/Murry)
Games Two Can Play
Soulful Old Man Sunshine (w/Rick Henn)

1970:
This Whole World (w/Carl)
Cool, Cool Water

1971:
'Til I Die (w/Carl)
Surf's Up (w/Carl)

1972:
He Come Down (w/Carl)

1973:
Funky Pretty (w/Carl)
Mt. Vernon & Fairway (A Fairytale) (w/Carl)

1974:
Child Of Winter
We're Together Again
California Feeling

That's a rough list. Feel free to add.


We're Together Again from 1974?  Did it get recorded again, I have not heard of this recording, only the one on the Friends-20/20 2fer.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Joel Goldenberg on October 27, 2014, 09:53:07 AM
I expressed on the Hoffman board that although each were credited to the Beach Boys, my strong suspicion is that Brian produced all or nearly all of Smiley Smile, Wild Honey and Friends, maybe even one of the two Dennis tracks on the latter. Wasn't there an extensive mono mixing session (was it Be With Me or Little Bird?) for which Brian was said to be "at the helm"?


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Joel Goldenberg on October 27, 2014, 09:54:27 AM
And of course there's also Old Man River and Add Some Music.Walk On By? At least the Hawthorne version of Time To Get Alone.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: phirnis on October 27, 2014, 11:03:14 AM
What about A Day in the Life of a Tree?

Also, didn't he co-produce Sail On Sailor over the phone to some extent?


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on October 27, 2014, 11:16:43 AM
We're Together Again from 1974?  Did it get recorded again, I have not heard of this recording, only the one on the Friends-20/20 2fer.

My bad, should be 1968. My excuses are...

I'm dog tired...
I'm pissed off...
I can barely hear.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Jukka on October 28, 2014, 12:54:44 AM
What about A Day in the Life of a Tree?

Also, didn't he co-produce Sail On Sailor over the phone to some extent?

I've also thought that ADITLOAT is pure Brian production. Doesn't even play all the organ parts, or have I been misguided?


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Jukka on October 28, 2014, 12:57:32 AM
...but anyway you count them, that's not a lot. Damn shame, he was pretty good at it whenever he got around to do it.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: phirnis on October 28, 2014, 01:30:02 AM
...but anyway you count them, that's not a lot. Damn shame, he was pretty good at it whenever he got around to do it.

Personally I think he did some of his very best work in those years and maybe that's because he didn't have to come up with an album's worth of new material every couple of months. He clearly had lost some of his drive to be the leader of the group and maybe ideas weren't coming as easily or as quickly as before. Still, whenever he came up with something it was always totally brilliant. I mean, I Went to Sleep, 'Til I Die, Life of a Tree, Mess of Help, Mt. Vernon and Fairway... all this stuff is just incredibly unique!


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Alan Smith on October 28, 2014, 01:35:15 AM
If they'd just release those darn Bedroom sessions (already)!


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Jukka on October 28, 2014, 03:05:51 AM
You're right, Phirnis... But still! One of the greatest musical minds was creatively in his prime (at least qualitywise, if not volume) and he managed to finish only about three songs a year! Well, the guy was not well, but it IS a bit frustrating to think about.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇 on October 28, 2014, 03:17:44 AM
...but anyway you count them, that's not a lot. Damn shame, he was pretty good at it whenever he got around to do it.

Personally I think he did some of his very best work in those years and maybe that's because he didn't have to come up with an album's worth of new material every couple of months. He clearly had lost some of his drive to be the leader of the group and maybe ideas weren't coming as easily or as quickly as before. Still, whenever he came up with something it was always totally brilliant. I mean, I Went to Sleep, 'Til I Die, Life of a Tree, Mess of Help, Mt. Vernon and Fairway... all this stuff is just incredibly unique!
i agree.

To be honest,  this is my favorite period of Brian, both writing and especially vocally.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: phirnis on October 28, 2014, 09:23:29 AM
You're right, Phirnis... But still! One of the greatest musical minds was creatively in his prime (at least qualitywise, if not volume) and he managed to finish only about three songs a year! Well, the guy was not well, but it IS a bit frustrating to think about.

I agree there's something frustrating about it and still for me it made discovering the group's late-60s/early-70s catalogue all the more exciting--that whole process of seeking out the few but brilliant Brian compositions, trying to gather as much information as possible about to what extent he was involved in the respective songs' creation and completion, and so on... And framing these compositions you always had a bunch of great songs by the other guys giving it their best in order to live up to their former leader's reputation.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: guitarfool2002 on October 28, 2014, 09:58:44 AM
1967:
Heroes And Villains
You're Welcome
Fall Breaks... And Back To Winter
Vegetables

The great conundrum of 1967 is that the credit "Produced By The Beach Boys" was new to the records, but in reality who was actually producing them? I've said this in another thread, but in the span of a year you had Carl and Dennis starting 1967 "learning the ropes" of running sessions and calling the shots in the studio via those Smile-era experiments like Tones and I Don't Know - and they are pretty decent but still naive and rather one-dimensional productions.

Then, move forward to the summer, if it's produced by The Beach Boys, how and why do many fans still refer it back to Brian's decision-making as far as how and why that album came together, and what it sounds like? Do we think someone else in the band had more of a say on how tracks like Wonderful and Wind Chimes came together than the guy who wrote them? Little Pad? Yeah, they're "group efforts" according to the credit but how much group was making the calls in those sessions? I'll say "How She Boogalooed It" sounds to my ears 100% like an all-group effort with little or barely much at all input from Brian as far as the studio work on that track. And you hear it. That's what the "group" produced in summer 1967 when given the wheel to steer the studio ship. Your ears tell the story as well as any credits or session documents.

Then "Leid In Hawaii", the great failed live project - Listen to the re-records at Heiders and other similar tapes. Who seemed to be calling the shots? Who does it sound like was calling the shots? It sure as hell wasn't Mike, Al, or Dennis, was it? Carl? Maybe.

Then, my main point in this: Wild Honey era. Brian was producing Redwood, The Boys were in need of a new album. There is that oft-told legend of several beach Boys going to the studio while Brian was cutting a track with Redwood, they pulled him aside, and when he came back he told Redwood he couldn't work on their album anymore because he had to do production work for The Beach Boys.


Again, the conundrum: If Brian isn't listed in 1967 for Wild Honey, even parts of it, then what exactly did the other Beach Boys need him to do for them in the studio that he wasn't doing for them while he was working with Redwood? They needed him in the studio to produce, the album being worked up at the time was Wild Honey, so why the inference that he wasn't involved as producer to the point where nothing from that album is listed here, for example?

He may have handed off the ball to Carl in some ways to get him involved in the process but he didn't walk off the playing field entirely.

I think the terminology itself and the credits especially in 1967 are misleading just a bit, but that's my own take only.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on October 28, 2014, 11:06:16 AM
There is that oft-told legend of several beach Boys going to the studio while Brian was cutting a track with Redwood, they pulled him aside, and when he came back he told Redwood he couldn't work on their album anymore because he had to do production work for The Beach Boys.

Oft-told... and generally regarded as apocryphal.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Joel Goldenberg on October 28, 2014, 11:17:22 AM

I think the terminology itself and the credits especially in 1967 are misleading just a bit, but that's my own take only.
Mine too, as I wrote above. IMO, Brian produced all of Smiley Smile (who else in the BBs had the cojones to do that?) and most of Wild Honey with the possible exception of How She Boogalooed It, which sounds like a desperate attempt to be a-go-go hip.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on October 28, 2014, 11:36:30 AM
'scuse me, but I never said anything even vaguely like that.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: bgas on October 28, 2014, 12:26:16 PM
*


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇 on October 28, 2014, 01:38:10 PM
I think the quote field messed up.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: bgas on October 28, 2014, 01:50:43 PM
I think the quote field messed up.

Does the field mess up on it's own?  Generally I presume it to be user error; oftentimes it seems to happen when someone is using a phone to post


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: phirnis on October 28, 2014, 02:48:03 PM
...but anyway you count them, that's not a lot. Damn shame, he was pretty good at it whenever he got around to do it.

Personally I think he did some of his very best work in those years and maybe that's because he didn't have to come up with an album's worth of new material every couple of months. He clearly had lost some of his drive to be the leader of the group and maybe ideas weren't coming as easily or as quickly as before. Still, whenever he came up with something it was always totally brilliant. I mean, I Went to Sleep, 'Til I Die, Life of a Tree, Mess of Help, Mt. Vernon and Fairway... all this stuff is just incredibly unique!
i agree.

To be honest,  this is my favorite period of Brian, both writing and especially vocally.

His singing from that particular time frame is indeed truly exceptional, can't get enough of it. For some reason it really strikes a chord with me, it always sounds both really sweet and slightly melancholy, which is a great mixture. When I first heard the Awake demo vocal of his I was stunned, though it's probably not perfect from a technical standpoint.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Joel Goldenberg on October 29, 2014, 08:31:41 AM
I think the quote field messed up.

Yes, sorry about that, Andrew.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: guitarfool2002 on October 29, 2014, 10:04:28 AM
There is that oft-told legend of several beach Boys going to the studio while Brian was cutting a track with Redwood, they pulled him aside, and when he came back he told Redwood he couldn't work on their album anymore because he had to do production work for The Beach Boys.

Oft-told... and generally regarded as apocryphal.

Andrew, I wanted to ask about this and maybe clarify it too: Are you suggesting this did not happen, or are you suggesting the details of what may or may not have been said or perceived have been apocryphal? I'm going on the words of at least two of the three Redwood members who have told basically the same story about what happened in the studio that day. Summing it up, they were there as Brian was producing their music, and after several Beach Boys showed up and talked to Brian, Brian was no longer working on their record. And the reasoning as told by those members was that Brian was going to be producing the Beach Boys current album project instead of Redwood. And that was it, apart from Redwood being offered a Brother single rather than the full album production.

I know that there were questions about what those Redwood members may have thought was said by the Beach Boys as they watched from the studio, but the fact that the scene happened in general is pretty much a known thing and has been reported by several involved parties who were in the studio that day.

I've never seen the fact that the scene happened in the studio challenged or considered apocryphal in some way, so I'm curious where that was coming from.

And it does go back to my bigger point that if Brian would no longer be producing a Redwood album so he could work on producing the Beach Boys' next album (which was Wild Honey), then not having him listed in a production role for that album doesn't add up with what played out. If he went to work producing Wild Honey after Redwood was told he wouldn't be producing them, that would mean he produced Wild Honey.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Joel Goldenberg on October 29, 2014, 11:03:00 AM
'scuse me, but I never said anything even vaguely like that.

It's fixed now.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇 on October 29, 2014, 11:15:03 AM
I think the quote field messed up.

Does the field mess up on it's own?  Generally I presume it to be user error; oftentimes it seems to happen when someone is using a phone to post


Occasionally it happens on its own when the quote tree gets too big.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Jason Penick on October 29, 2014, 12:41:36 PM
And it does go back to my bigger point that if Brian would no longer be producing a Redwood album so he could work on producing the Beach Boys' next album (which was Wild Honey), then not having him listed in a production role for that album doesn't add up with what played out. If he went to work producing Wild Honey after Redwood was told he wouldn't be producing them, that would mean he produced Wild Honey.

I think to get any kind of an answer about this, we have to examine what exactly the role of the producer is, which can be amorphous even under the most tightly controlled circumstances. Is he a moneyman in charge of making sure the recording is submitted on-time and under budget? A guy who sits behind the glass telling the engineer how to do his job? Or is he more actively involved, assisting with musical arrangements in pursuit of his own grand vision for the project?

Post-Smile, the Beach Boys found themselves in a situation where they had recently racked up a ton of studio costs to no avail and were desperately in need of getting some kind of product out on to market as soon as possible. I really believe this is why the focus changed from album to single around the turn of 1967. Time and money. If you look at it that way, the rationale for Smiley Smile really becomes apparent. They were way overdue for an album, so they took the songs they had that could be reworked most easily and recorded them as quickly as possible using minimal instrumentation. I personally think the results were brilliant nonetheless; but obviously Smiley is a divisive album amongst fans because of its lo-fi nature on the heels of the grandiose Smile sessions. And as much as I want to believe in my heart that this was a consciously plotted out move by Brian Wilson to become the godfather of indie, when confronted with the scenario at hand it really does seem that this was a move to get something, anything, with the name "Beach Boys" out on the racks and hopefully on the charts.

Sorry, I lost the plot for a minute; we were talking about producers. Okay, so in this scenario we have the band now recording themselves in Brian's new home studio which was still being pieced together. All the existing constraints of the big studios they were used to working in were now absent. Any of the six Beach Boys could now go into the control room and play with the faders, make suggestions over the talkback, or do any of the things producers generally do. It's like if you and I and a couple of buddies sat around the house one day and knocked out a single or EP onto Pro Tools or whatever. Likely everyone would contribute their two cents, and thus the "band" would share the producer credit, even if one guy was the primary songwriter and arranger.

The thing that intrigues me the most about Smiley and the similarly rush-released Wild Honey is the modularity concept; but as forward-thinking as that idea was, again it may not have been conceived as some grand artistic breakthrough as much as for expediency's sake. Simply, it's just easier for a somewhat shaky band (in terms of instrumental proficiency) as the Beach Boys to track a verse and a chorus and loop it three times, verses nailing a perfect take of a whole song. Not that they were incapable of doing so; but if time were really a factor then this approach makes a ton of sense.

It's worth noting too that the big, non-Smile derived "production numbers" on either album ("Fall Breaks" and "Darlin'") both seem to have been helmed entirely by Brian. This speaks to the Chuck Negron incident, as hypothetically the other Beach Boys might have seen the homespun modular school of recording as insufficiently capable of producing a "hot" sounding single aimed at the pop charts. And if so, they were likely right.

The irony here, if you can call it that, is that by the time Brian was (presumably) back in the driver's seat for Friends, he delivered excellent results and yet the album sank like a stone with the single doing only slightly better. I'm not looking at my notes right now, but I believe very little if any of Friends was recorded at the home studio, indicating that this was a push by the band to get back to what had initially made them successful in terms of the recording arrangement.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: joshferrell on October 29, 2014, 01:43:17 PM
opps I misread the thread title when posting my post.I was thinking of all the stuff he produced..my bad lol... although I'm wasn't too far off with "Spring"/ "American Spring" because of "Good Times" and "Had to phone ya"..


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on October 29, 2014, 04:21:08 PM
There is that oft-told legend of several beach Boys going to the studio while Brian was cutting a track with Redwood, they pulled him aside, and when he came back he told Redwood he couldn't work on their album anymore because he had to do production work for The Beach Boys.

Oft-told... and generally regarded as apocryphal.

Andrew, I wanted to ask about this and maybe clarify it too: Are you suggesting this did not happen, or are you suggesting the details of what may or may not have been said or perceived have been apocryphal? I'm going on the words of at least two of the three Redwood members who have told basically the same story about what happened in the studio that day. Summing it up, they were there as Brian was producing their music, and after several Beach Boys showed up and talked to Brian, Brian was no longer working on their record. And the reasoning as told by those members was that Brian was going to be producing the Beach Boys current album project instead of Redwood. And that was it, apart from Redwood being offered a Brother single rather than the full album production.

I know that there were questions about what those Redwood members may have thought was said by the Beach Boys as they watched from the studio, but the fact that the scene happened in general is pretty much a known thing and has been reported by several involved parties who were in the studio that day.

I've never seen the fact that the scene happened in the studio challenged or considered apocryphal in some way, so I'm curious where that was coming from.

And it does go back to my bigger point that if Brian would no longer be producing a Redwood album so he could work on producing the Beach Boys' next album (which was Wild Honey), then not having him listed in a production role for that album doesn't add up with what played out. If he went to work producing Wild Honey after Redwood was told he wouldn't be producing them, that would mean he produced Wild Honey.

It's late and I'm working from memory, but as far as I recall the only source for this event is Chuck Negron's autobiog. I also seem to recall TDN fans blowing holes in the chronology, and I definitely don't recall Danny Hutton ever saying word one about it in all the time since... and I think he would ! According to Negron, Mike & Carl turned up in the studio and as TDN watched (but could not hear), basically wore Brian down, reducing him to tears. That sound like anything Carl would do in 1967 ?

If there's another source I've missed I'd be delighted to see it.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on October 29, 2014, 04:33:08 PM
I'm not looking at my notes right now, but I believe very little if any of Friends was recorded at the home studio, indicating that this was a push by the band to get back to what had initially made them successful in terms of the recording arrangement.

Eh... you know what I'm going to say, dontcha ? Thirteen Friends sessions were held at the makeshift studio at 10452, seven were held at ID Sound (1556 N La Brea).

February:
?? - Friends session: 'Untitled #1'
?? - Friends session: You're As Cool As You Can Be
24 - Friends session: All I Wanna Do
29 - Friends session: Little Fish In A Brook (= Little Bird)
 
March:
  6 - Friends session: Be Here In The Morning Darling track
13 - Friends session: Friends
18 - Friends session: 'Untitled #1' (=When A Man Needs A Woman)
20 - Friends session: Our Happy Home
22 - Friends session: Passing By
26 - Friends session: Even Steven (= Busy Doin' Nothin')/'New Song' track
28 - Friends session: Wake The World track [2 sessions]
29 - Friends session: Be Here In The Morning track remake
30 - Friends session: Wake The World vocals [ID Sound]
31 - Friends session: Be Here In The Morning vocals [ID Sound]
 
April:
  1 - Friends session: Meant For You [ID Sound]
  2 - Friends session: Anna Lee, The Healer [ID Sound]
  4 - Friends session: Transcendental Meditation [ID Sound]
11 - Friends session: Busy Doin' Nothin' vocals  [ID Sound] (Brian only)
12 - Friends session: Diamond Head [ID Sound] (Brian only)


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Jason Penick on October 29, 2014, 06:41:30 PM
I'm not looking at my notes right now, but I believe very little if any of Friends was recorded at the home studio, indicating that this was a push by the band to get back to what had initially made them successful in terms of the recording arrangement.

Eh... you know what I'm going to say, dontcha ? Thirteen Friends sessions were held at the makeshift studio at 10452, seven were held at ID Sound (1556 N La Brea).

February:
?? - Friends session: 'Untitled #1'
?? - Friends session: You're As Cool As You Can Be
24 - Friends session: All I Wanna Do
29 - Friends session: Little Fish In A Brook (= Little Bird)
 
March:
  6 - Friends session: Be Here In The Morning Darling track
13 - Friends session: Friends
18 - Friends session: 'Untitled #1' (=When A Man Needs A Woman)
20 - Friends session: Our Happy Home
22 - Friends session: Passing By
26 - Friends session: Even Steven (= Busy Doin' Nothin')/'New Song' track
28 - Friends session: Wake The World track [2 sessions]
29 - Friends session: Be Here In The Morning track remake
30 - Friends session: Wake The World vocals [ID Sound]
31 - Friends session: Be Here In The Morning vocals [ID Sound]
 
April:
  1 - Friends session: Meant For You [ID Sound]
  2 - Friends session: Anna Lee, The Healer [ID Sound]
  4 - Friends session: Transcendental Meditation [ID Sound]
11 - Friends session: Busy Doin' Nothin' vocals  [ID Sound] (Brian only)
12 - Friends session: Diamond Head [ID Sound] (Brian only)

Yeah, I figured as soon as I posted that without checking first that you'd be here to correct me shortly!  :lol  Oh well, hopefully the rest of my points still stand.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: guitarfool2002 on October 29, 2014, 08:59:25 PM
There is that oft-told legend of several beach Boys going to the studio while Brian was cutting a track with Redwood, they pulled him aside, and when he came back he told Redwood he couldn't work on their album anymore because he had to do production work for The Beach Boys.

Oft-told... and generally regarded as apocryphal.

Andrew, I wanted to ask about this and maybe clarify it too: Are you suggesting this did not happen, or are you suggesting the details of what may or may not have been said or perceived have been apocryphal? I'm going on the words of at least two of the three Redwood members who have told basically the same story about what happened in the studio that day. Summing it up, they were there as Brian was producing their music, and after several Beach Boys showed up and talked to Brian, Brian was no longer working on their record. And the reasoning as told by those members was that Brian was going to be producing the Beach Boys current album project instead of Redwood. And that was it, apart from Redwood being offered a Brother single rather than the full album production.

I know that there were questions about what those Redwood members may have thought was said by the Beach Boys as they watched from the studio, but the fact that the scene happened in general is pretty much a known thing and has been reported by several involved parties who were in the studio that day.

I've never seen the fact that the scene happened in the studio challenged or considered apocryphal in some way, so I'm curious where that was coming from.

And it does go back to my bigger point that if Brian would no longer be producing a Redwood album so he could work on producing the Beach Boys' next album (which was Wild Honey), then not having him listed in a production role for that album doesn't add up with what played out. If he went to work producing Wild Honey after Redwood was told he wouldn't be producing them, that would mean he produced Wild Honey.

It's late and I'm working from memory, but as far as I recall the only source for this event is Chuck Negron's autobiog. I also seem to recall TDN fans blowing holes in the chronology, and I definitely don't recall Danny Hutton ever saying word one about it in all the time since... and I think he would ! According to Negron, Mike & Carl turned up in the studio and as TDN watched (but could not hear), basically wore Brian down, reducing him to tears. That sound like anything Carl would do in 1967 ?

If there's another source I've missed I'd be delighted to see it.

Danny Hutton spoke directly about this situation with Redwood in this interview:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5zYjs96sZA&feature=youtu.be&list=PL35350BBCE486D776 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5zYjs96sZA&feature=youtu.be&list=PL35350BBCE486D776)

Skip ahead to around 3 minutes into it, and Danny describes what happened with the Redwood tracks.

Another account from Danny appeared in Peter Carlin's "Catch A Wave", page 130, saying it specifically happened at Wally Heiders studio.

There are two out of three members of the group describing the same event, one more detailed than the other but both describing how Brian was producing them, then he was not after the Beach Boys stepped in.

And that's what I describing in the original post, I think we may have gotten more into the minute details of what Chuck had thought he heard or saw that day, when the bigger picture and more important point was the fact that Brian was producing Redwood, the BB's showed up and wanted him to work on their new album instead of Redwood, and Brian stopped working with Redwood. And the Beach Boys took with them two tracks he had been cutting for Redwood.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on October 30, 2014, 01:05:08 AM
Thanks for that.

The Carlin book: yes, Danny describes Mike & Carl appropriating the tape, but not reducing Brian to tears in view of TDN, and in the YouTube clip he's evidently unaware that Brian didn't write the song for him, rather he re-wrote a song that was several years old. Again, no mention of any studio confrontation as claimed by Negron.

There's no session info for the Redwood version of "Darlin'", but that's not a game-stopper. I'm not debating that the band hijacked Brian's work with Redwood - that's established fact - but I am seriously questioning that Mike & Carl browbeat Brian in the studio as Negron described. Hutton has been fiercely supportive of Brian down the years, and if he'd seen anything like that, we'd have heard about it long before now.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Ray Lawlor on October 30, 2014, 05:52:00 AM
There is that oft-told legend of several beach Boys going to the studio while Brian was cutting a track with Redwood, they pulled him aside, and when he came back he told Redwood he couldn't work on their album anymore because he had to do production work for The Beach Boys.

Oft-told... and generally regarded as apocryphal.

Andrew, I wanted to ask about this and maybe clarify it too: Are you suggesting this did not happen, or are you suggesting the details of what may or may not have been said or perceived have been apocryphal? I'm going on the words of at least two of the three Redwood members who have told basically the same story about what happened in the studio that day. Summing it up, they were there as Brian was producing their music, and after several Beach Boys showed up and talked to Brian, Brian was no longer working on their record. And the reasoning as told by those members was that Brian was going to be producing the Beach Boys current album project instead of Redwood. And that was it, apart from Redwood being offered a Brother single rather than the full album production.

I know that there were questions about what those Redwood members may have thought was said by the Beach Boys as they watched from the studio, but the fact that the scene happened in general is pretty much a known thing and has been reported by several involved parties who were in the studio that day.

I've never seen the fact that the scene happened in the studio challenged or considered apocryphal in some way, so I'm curious where that was coming from.

And it does go back to my bigger point that if Brian would no longer be producing a Redwood album so he could work on producing the Beach Boys' next album (which was Wild Honey), then not having him listed in a production role for that album doesn't add up with what played out. If he went to work producing Wild Honey after Redwood was told he wouldn't be producing them, that would mean he produced Wild Honey.

It's late and I'm working from memory, but as far as I recall the only source for this event is Chuck Negron's autobiog. I also seem to recall TDN fans blowing holes in the chronology, and I definitely don't recall Danny Hutton ever saying word one about it in all the time since... and I think he would ! According to Negron, Mike & Carl turned up in the studio and as TDN watched (but could not hear), basically wore Brian down, reducing him to tears. That sound like anything Carl would do in 1967 ?

If there's another source I've missed I'd be delighted to see it.

Danny Hutton spoke directly about this situation with Redwood in this interview:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5zYjs96sZA&feature=youtu.be&list=PL35350BBCE486D776 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5zYjs96sZA&feature=youtu.be&list=PL35350BBCE486D776)

Skip ahead to around 3 minutes into it, and Danny describes what happened with the Redwood tracks.

Another account from Danny appeared in Peter Carlin's "Catch A Wave", page 130, saying it specifically happened at Wally Heiders studio.

There are two out of three members of the group describing the same event, one more detailed than the other but both describing how Brian was producing them, then he was not after the Beach Boys stepped in.

And that's what I describing in the original post, I think we may have gotten more into the minute details of what Chuck had thought he heard or saw that day, when the bigger picture and more important point was the fact that Brian was producing Redwood, the BB's showed up and wanted him to work on their new album instead of Redwood, and Brian stopped working with Redwood. And the Beach Boys took with them two tracks he had been cutting for Redwood.

GuitarFool;  I can tell you that I heard this straight from the horses mouth ; what went down at Wally Heiders is what Negron has related in his book.   


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: LostArt on October 30, 2014, 08:05:58 AM
GuitarFool;  I can tell you that I heard this straight from the horses mouth ; what went down at Wally Heiders is what Negron has related in his book.   

So Brian finally got that horse into the studio.  ;)


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Joel Goldenberg on October 30, 2014, 10:05:31 AM
GuitarFool;  I can tell you that I heard this straight from the horses mouth ; what went down at Wally Heiders is what Negron has related in his book.   

So Brian finally got that horse into the studio.  ;)

 ;D


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: guitarfool2002 on October 30, 2014, 11:40:17 AM
There is that oft-told legend of several beach Boys going to the studio while Brian was cutting a track with Redwood, they pulled him aside, and when he came back he told Redwood he couldn't work on their album anymore because he had to do production work for The Beach Boys.

Oft-told... and generally regarded as apocryphal.

Andrew, I wanted to ask about this and maybe clarify it too: Are you suggesting this did not happen, or are you suggesting the details of what may or may not have been said or perceived have been apocryphal? I'm going on the words of at least two of the three Redwood members who have told basically the same story about what happened in the studio that day. Summing it up, they were there as Brian was producing their music, and after several Beach Boys showed up and talked to Brian, Brian was no longer working on their record. And the reasoning as told by those members was that Brian was going to be producing the Beach Boys current album project instead of Redwood. And that was it, apart from Redwood being offered a Brother single rather than the full album production.

I know that there were questions about what those Redwood members may have thought was said by the Beach Boys as they watched from the studio, but the fact that the scene happened in general is pretty much a known thing and has been reported by several involved parties who were in the studio that day.

I've never seen the fact that the scene happened in the studio challenged or considered apocryphal in some way, so I'm curious where that was coming from.

And it does go back to my bigger point that if Brian would no longer be producing a Redwood album so he could work on producing the Beach Boys' next album (which was Wild Honey), then not having him listed in a production role for that album doesn't add up with what played out. If he went to work producing Wild Honey after Redwood was told he wouldn't be producing them, that would mean he produced Wild Honey.

It's late and I'm working from memory, but as far as I recall the only source for this event is Chuck Negron's autobiog. I also seem to recall TDN fans blowing holes in the chronology, and I definitely don't recall Danny Hutton ever saying word one about it in all the time since... and I think he would ! According to Negron, Mike & Carl turned up in the studio and as TDN watched (but could not hear), basically wore Brian down, reducing him to tears. That sound like anything Carl would do in 1967 ?

If there's another source I've missed I'd be delighted to see it.

Danny Hutton spoke directly about this situation with Redwood in this interview:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5zYjs96sZA&feature=youtu.be&list=PL35350BBCE486D776 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5zYjs96sZA&feature=youtu.be&list=PL35350BBCE486D776)

Skip ahead to around 3 minutes into it, and Danny describes what happened with the Redwood tracks.

Another account from Danny appeared in Peter Carlin's "Catch A Wave", page 130, saying it specifically happened at Wally Heiders studio.

There are two out of three members of the group describing the same event, one more detailed than the other but both describing how Brian was producing them, then he was not after the Beach Boys stepped in.

And that's what I describing in the original post, I think we may have gotten more into the minute details of what Chuck had thought he heard or saw that day, when the bigger picture and more important point was the fact that Brian was producing Redwood, the BB's showed up and wanted him to work on their new album instead of Redwood, and Brian stopped working with Redwood. And the Beach Boys took with them two tracks he had been cutting for Redwood.

GuitarFool;  I can tell you that I heard this straight from the horses mouth ; what went down at Wally Heiders is what Negron has related in his book.   

Thanks for the clarification, Ray: If confirmation came from the horse's mouth, I'll go with that!

I think the issue of Negron's telling of what happened might be narrowing the focus a bit too much into what exactly was said versus the bigger picture of what happened and what was the ultimate result, which as I outlined above was the Beach Boys taking the tapes Brian was producing with Redwood and effectively ending Brian's producing Redwood and him working instead with the BB's, along with those two specific BW productions for Redwood being given Beach Boys vocal tracks to replace Redwood's.

Danny Hutton in the YouTube interview link describes Mike being "pissed off" about Brian giving them a hit song, he describes the tracking of Darlin' starting at the house, with a "Motown bass player" and a guide vocal, then the tracks being stacked. And with "Time To Get Alone", Danny said "we did it on Selma, we didn't do it at the house".  Wally Heider had his studios at the intersection of Selma and Cahuenga. And in Carlin's book, Danny mentions Wally Heider's studio by name as the location.

With "Darlin'", and how Danny said it was inspired by him, I don't know how that could be disputed if you look at the construction of the song. According to Danny and other reports/accounts, Danny would call people "darlin" all the time, as in "hello darlin", whatever the case. If you put it together, Brian used that trademark saying of Danny's and built the hook of a song around it.

So they had the hook using the word "darlin", it became the chorus and hook of a new song idea which he built up for Redwood. The Sharon Marie song "Thinkin Bout You Baby" had the same verse melody and chords, but the chorus and the hook were radically different musically, the Sharon version going for more of a Spector type hook and chords as Ellie Greenwich and Jeff Barry might have written in 63-64. Totally different.

But in Darlin, Brian took what was a killer of a new hook and chorus, used it as the intro and the chorus to build a new song around, and fleshed it out by reusing that verse melody and chord progression from the Sharon Marie song. I don't see how reusing a verse section of a previous song he had written to flesh out and support a new chorus and hook for a new song idea would suggest Danny isn't being accurate or is misremembering something, when he described Brian writing "Darlin" based on something he was known to say often and which Brian picked up on and thought it would be a great hook for a song that Hutton and Redwood could record.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on October 30, 2014, 12:05:49 PM
The Redwood "TTGA" sessions were indeed at Wally Heider's, October 14th & 15th 1967.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Moon Dawg on October 30, 2014, 04:00:47 PM
 Did The Beach Boys utilize Brian's Redwood instrumental track for "Darlin"?


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: ontor pertawst on October 30, 2014, 09:47:14 PM
So, still generally regarded as apocryphal? Cough.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: bgas on October 30, 2014, 09:55:51 PM
cough /cough /hack/ hack / hawks a loogie.... all better now, Thanx!


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on October 30, 2014, 11:10:22 PM
Did The Beach Boys utilize Brian's Redwood instrumental track for "Darlin"?

Excellent question: the entirely honest answer is, we don't know. The only documented session for "Darlin'" that we currently know of was on 10/27/67 at Heider's along with "A Thing Or Two" and "Game Of Love", but given that the track for "Darlin'" is far and away the most complex on Wild Honey and obviously not recorded by the band, that both that and the vocals were cut in one session (along with two other titles) is frankly highly unlikely.

Further...

On October 11th & 12th, at the home studio, there were sessions for an untitled song. Could they be for the Redwood "Darlin'" ? Possibly but again, to be entirely frank, currently that would be pure, if mildly informed, speculation. I'm hoping that Craig's MiC session notes will throw further light on this shady corner of BB recording history. Preferably here, and later today.  ;)


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on October 30, 2014, 11:14:49 PM
So, still generally regarded as apocryphal? Cough.

In this here neck o' th' woods, yup. Not disputing what Brian told Ray...


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: guitarfool2002 on October 31, 2014, 08:31:06 AM
So, still generally regarded as apocryphal? Cough.

In this here neck o' th' woods, yup. Not disputing what Brian told Ray...

Andrew, then what exactly are you still calling apocryphal?


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Joel Goldenberg on October 31, 2014, 11:14:08 AM

Danny Hutton in the YouTube interview link describes Mike being "pissed off" about Brian giving them a hit song, he describes the tracking of Darlin' starting at the house, with a "Motown bass player" and a guide vocal, then the tracks being stacked. And with "Time To Get Alone", Danny said "we did it on Selma, we didn't do it at the house".  Wally Heider had his studios at the intersection of Selma and Cahuenga. And in Carlin's book, Danny mentions Wally Heider's studio by name as the location.

I'd love to hear that guide vocal version, would it have been by Brian? I love his guide vocal for Breakaway.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: guitarfool2002 on November 01, 2014, 09:06:22 AM
No idea who would have done the guide vocal, it could have been Redwood or Brian.

One footnote, and I'm curious if this is apocryphal too: Danny and Cory Wells had played together, then split and Cory took a gig that put him playing a stint in Phoenix, or something. Danny calls Cory and tells him he's putting a band together, and he had a third singer available to complete the lineup, a Beach Boy who would leave the group, but Cory needed to get back to LA immediately to hammer it all out. Cory declined because he had a few weeks left in his contract, which he took because prior to that his LA gigs had dried up and he was broke. So he finished out the gig, and returned to LA a few weeks later to meet with Danny and the third singer, the mystery Beach Boy.

The mystery Beach Boy turned out to be Bruce Johnston, and Cory (keep in mind the year) said he wasn't a Beach Boy, he was a session musician...but Danny said it was too late, the deal wasn't on the table since it had been weeks since he first asked Cory to come back to LA.

That's all pre-Redwood, before they got the trio of vocalists in place and when each of them was doing their own gigs after some initial success in and around LA, via clubs, bands, releases, etc.

Just found it interesting that you don't hear that part of the Three Dog Night-Beach Boys connection as often, the fact that at one point Bruce was considering joining Danny Hutton and what would have been Cory Wells in a nascent version of TDN.



And again, I'm genuinely asking this: What part of anything I had written concerning the Redwood story with Brian is in question, or which part of the story in general is in question? If what was laid out in this thread is being challenged or labeled apocryphal, I think it's only fair to offer something additional to back up the challenge.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Smilin Ed H on November 01, 2014, 09:34:19 AM
No idea who would have done the guide vocal, it could have been Redwood or Brian.

One footnote, and I'm curious if this is apocryphal too: Danny and Cory Wells had played together, then split and Cory took a gig that put him playing a stint in Phoenix, or something. Danny calls Cory and tells him he's putting a band together, and he had a third singer available to complete the lineup, a Beach Boy who would leave the group, but Cory needed to get back to LA immediately to hammer it all out. Cory declined because he had a few weeks left in his contract, which he took because prior to that his LA gigs had dried up and he was broke. So he finished out the gig, and returned to LA a few weeks later to meet with Danny and the third singer, the mystery Beach Boy.

The mystery Beach Boy turned out to be Bruce Johnston, and Cory (keep in mind the year) said he wasn't a Beach Boy, he was a session musician...but Danny said it was too late, the deal wasn't on the table since it had been weeks since he first asked Cory to come back to LA.

That's all pre-Redwood, before they got the trio of vocalists in place and when each of them was doing their own gigs after some initial success in and around LA, via clubs, bands, releases, etc.

Just found it interesting that you don't hear that part of the Three Dog Night-Beach Boys connection as often, the fact that at one point Bruce was considering joining Danny Hutton and what would have been Cory Wells in a nascent version of TDN.



And again, I'm genuinely asking this: What part of anything I had written concerning the Redwood story with Brian is in question, or which part of the story in general is in question? If what was laid out in this thread is being challenged or labeled apocryphal, I think it's only fair to offer something additional to back up the challenge.

I wonder if this was the period Carl was - allegedly - angling to replace Bruce with Billy.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on November 01, 2014, 03:38:35 PM
Wasn't that more 1969-1970 ?


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Mr. Verlander on November 01, 2014, 03:56:27 PM


And again, I'm genuinely asking this: What part of anything I had written concerning the Redwood story with Brian is in question, or which part of the story in general is in question? If what was laid out in this thread is being challenged or labeled apocryphal, I think it's only fair to offer something additional to back up the challenge.

I think that maybe it's a case of 'Just because Brian said it to Ray, doesn't mean that it actually happened'. Hasn't Brian been known to sort of, uh, go back and 'change his tune' on things to fit the accepted story lines? The whole SMiLE thing comes to mind; for 30 years it was because it was 'inappropriate music', and then suddenly when BWPS comes out with DVD, Brian says that the big reason that it didn't come out was 'Mike didn't like it'.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: CenturyDeprived on November 01, 2014, 04:45:37 PM


And again, I'm genuinely asking this: What part of anything I had written concerning the Redwood story with Brian is in question, or which part of the story in general is in question? If what was laid out in this thread is being challenged or labeled apocryphal, I think it's only fair to offer something additional to back up the challenge.

I think that maybe it's a case of 'Just because Brian said it to Ray, doesn't mean that it actually happened'. Hasn't Brian been known to sort of, uh, go back and 'change his tune' on things to fit the accepted story lines? The whole SMiLE thing comes to mind; for 30 years it was because it was 'inappropriate music', and then suddenly when BWPS comes out with DVD, Brian says that the big reason that it didn't come out was 'Mike didn't like it'.

If people find it unlikely that Brian in actuality broke down in tears, maybe he was deeply hurt and crying on the inside, or very slightly visibly crying. Maybe Brian *felt* like crying, and he simply remembers those feelings. I'm sure there are many people who've done research to try and corroborate (or dispel) such a story, and maybe they have well-researched legit reasons for doubting some aspects of it, but I find it mighty doubtful that Brian would claim to his friend that it happened if it didn't in fact happen in some fashion.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Theydon Bois on November 01, 2014, 04:59:20 PM


And again, I'm genuinely asking this: What part of anything I had written concerning the Redwood story with Brian is in question, or which part of the story in general is in question? If what was laid out in this thread is being challenged or labeled apocryphal, I think it's only fair to offer something additional to back up the challenge.

I think that maybe it's a case of 'Just because Brian said it to Ray, doesn't mean that it actually happened'. Hasn't Brian been known to sort of, uh, go back and 'change his tune' on things to fit the accepted story lines? The whole SMiLE thing comes to mind; for 30 years it was because it was 'inappropriate music', and then suddenly when BWPS comes out with DVD, Brian says that the big reason that it didn't come out was 'Mike didn't like it'.

I'm not sure that the demise of Smile is necessarily the best choice of parallel, given the number of variables in play in that situation; the Redwood story, on the other hand, seems far more cut and dried, with nobody actually contradicting the tale with the exception of, as far as I can gather, a few people on this board.  If Brian Wilson says it happened, Chuck Negron says it happened, Danny Hutton is a bit vague but basically goes along with it, Carl Wilson isn't around to comment and Mike Love hasn't sued anybody despite the fact that a story that makes him look like a bit of a bully has appeared in print in at least two books, then surely the balance of probabilities is now tilting towards "it happened"?


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Jim V. on November 01, 2014, 06:39:40 PM
GuitarFool;  I can tell you that I heard this straight from the horses mouth ; what went down at Wally Heiders is what Negron has related in his book.   

Quite interesting. I do have to ask Ray, is it you asking Brian about this stuff? Or him bringing it up? Cuz I have to imagine that something like this has to be really traumatic still for him. And while we're at it, if this is true as you say (and I have no reason to doubt you), does Brian still harbor resentment against Carl and Al for this, or has he let bygones be bygones, especially considering I'm sure he did quite a bit to hurt those guys to in the intervening years.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: c-man on November 01, 2014, 08:42:24 PM
Did The Beach Boys utilize Brian's Redwood instrumental track for "Darlin"?

Excellent question: the entirely honest answer is, we don't know. The only documented session for "Darlin'" that we currently know of was on 10/27/67 at Heider's along with "A Thing Or Two" and "Game Of Love", but given that the track for "Darlin'" is far and away the most complex on Wild Honey and obviously not recorded by the band, that both that and the vocals were cut in one session (along with two other titles) is frankly highly unlikely.

Further...

On October 11th & 12th, at the home studio, there were sessions for an untitled song. Could they be for the Redwood "Darlin'" ? Possibly but again, to be entirely frank, currently that would be pure, if mildly informed, speculation. I'm hoping that Craig's MiC session notes will throw further light on this shady corner of BB recording history. Preferably here, and later today.  ;)

I will say I've heard the session tape for the "Darlin'" basic track, and it pretty much matches Danny's description in Mark Dillon's book. One thiing he doesn't mention is that Carl played drums, off-mic, then Hal Blaine was brought in to overdub the real drum performance. I believe this was on Oct. 11th, in two separate sessions. I believe Oct. 12th was the date of the "Time To Get Alone" basic track, with further work on Oct. 15th. I believe The Beach Boys added additional overdubs to "Darlin'" on Oct. 27th. 


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: alf wiedersehen on November 01, 2014, 08:58:06 PM
I will say I've heard the session tape for the "Darlin'" basic track, and it pretty much matches Danny's description in Mark Dillon's book. One thiing he doesn't mention is that Carl played drums, off-mic, then Hal Blaine was brought in to overdub the real drum performance. I believe this was on Oct. 11th, in two separate sessions. I believe Oct. 12th was the date of the "Time To Get Alone" basic track, with further work on Oct. 15th. I believe The Beach Boys added additional overdubs to "Darlin'" on Oct. 27th. 

Do you remember who does the guide vocal?


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on November 02, 2014, 12:55:32 AM
Did The Beach Boys utilize Brian's Redwood instrumental track for "Darlin"?

Excellent question: the entirely honest answer is, we don't know. The only documented session for "Darlin'" that we currently know of was on 10/27/67 at Heider's along with "A Thing Or Two" and "Game Of Love", but given that the track for "Darlin'" is far and away the most complex on Wild Honey and obviously not recorded by the band, that both that and the vocals were cut in one session (along with two other titles) is frankly highly unlikely.

Further...

On October 11th & 12th, at the home studio, there were sessions for an untitled song. Could they be for the Redwood "Darlin'" ? Possibly but again, to be entirely frank, currently that would be pure, if mildly informed, speculation. I'm hoping that Craig's MiC session notes will throw further light on this shady corner of BB recording history. Preferably here, and later today.  ;)

I will say I've heard the session tape for the "Darlin'" basic track, and it pretty much matches Danny's description in Mark Dillon's book. One thiing he doesn't mention is that Carl played drums, off-mic, then Hal Blaine was brought in to overdub the real drum performance. I believe this was on Oct. 11th, in two separate sessions. I believe Oct. 12th was the date of the "Time To Get Alone" basic track, with further work on Oct. 15th. I believe The Beach Boys added additional overdubs to "Darlin'" on Oct. 27th.  

I love this place... it's like a fairytale. Wish for something and Shazaam ! It happens.

Sometimes.  ;D

Craig, does that mean the 10/14/67 date for a "TTGA" session at Heider's (Hawthorne CA liner notes) is incorrect ?


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Smilin Ed H on November 02, 2014, 03:19:52 AM
Wasn't that more 1969-1970 ?

Hmmm. Maybe Bruce was still trying to distance himself from the drug use a la not going to Hawaii


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: c-man on November 02, 2014, 06:29:28 AM
I will say I've heard the session tape for the "Darlin'" basic track, and it pretty much matches Danny's description in Mark Dillon's book. One thiing he doesn't mention is that Carl played drums, off-mic, then Hal Blaine was brought in to overdub the real drum performance. I believe this was on Oct. 11th, in two separate sessions. I believe Oct. 12th was the date of the "Time To Get Alone" basic track, with further work on Oct. 15th. I believe The Beach Boys added additional overdubs to "Darlin'" on Oct. 27th. 

Do you remember who does the guide vocal?

No guide vocal is extant on the surviving tapes, just the final BBs vocals.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: c-man on November 02, 2014, 06:35:05 AM
I love this place... it's like a fairytale. Wish for something and Shazaam ! It happens.

Sometimes.  ;D

Craig, does that mean the 10/14/67 date for a "TTGA" session at Heider's (Hawthorne CA liner notes) is incorrect ?


No - it means it's correct but I forgot to include it!  :)  The actual timeline for "TTGA" as I understand it is thus:
   Basic track & overdub recorded at Brian Wilson's Home Studio, Bel Air, Thursday October 12, 1967, 2:00pm-5:00pm
   Strings & horns recorded at Wally Heider Studio 3, Hollywood, Saturday October 14, 1967, 6:00pm-9:30pm
   Drums & percussion recorded at Wally Heider Studio 3, Hollywood, Sunday October 15, 1967, 8:00pm-10:00pm
And (as was the case with "Darlin'"), The Beach Boys added additional overdubs along with their vocals - in this case, a year later (October 1968).


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Mikie on November 02, 2014, 09:25:56 AM
Good thread.   Note to self: We need more threads like this.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Cyncie on November 02, 2014, 09:44:06 AM


And again, I'm genuinely asking this: What part of anything I had written concerning the Redwood story with Brian is in question, or which part of the story in general is in question? If what was laid out in this thread is being challenged or labeled apocryphal, I think it's only fair to offer something additional to back up the challenge.

I think that maybe it's a case of 'Just because Brian said it to Ray, doesn't mean that it actually happened'. Hasn't Brian been known to sort of, uh, go back and 'change his tune' on things to fit the accepted story lines? The whole SMiLE thing comes to mind; for 30 years it was because it was 'inappropriate music', and then suddenly when BWPS comes out with DVD, Brian says that the big reason that it didn't come out was 'Mike didn't like it'.

I'm not sure that the demise of Smile is necessarily the best choice of parallel, given the number of variables in play in that situation; the Redwood story, on the other hand, seems far more cut and dried, with nobody actually contradicting the tale with the exception of, as far as I can gather, a few people on this board.  If Brian Wilson says it happened, Chuck Negron says it happened, Danny Hutton is a bit vague but basically goes along with it, Carl Wilson isn't around to comment and Mike Love hasn't sued anybody despite the fact that a story that makes him look like a bit of a bully has appeared in print in at least two books, then surely the balance of probabilities is now tilting towards "it happened"?

Well, yeah. If it was just Brian, you always have to view that with a grain of salt. But, since there are at least 3 people who were present who generally agree on the events, you would have to at least grant a certain amount of credibility.

I wonder if our hesitation on this is due to Carl's apparent involvement? We're accustomed to the "Mike bullied Brian/Al/ etc" stories (true and false); but, the idea of Carl being a part of it goes against our generally held opinions about him and his nature.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Don Malcolm on November 02, 2014, 12:57:29 PM

I wonder if our hesitation on this is due to Carl's apparent involvement? We're accustomed to the "Mike bullied Brian/Al/ etc" stories (true and false); but, the idea of Carl being a part of it goes against our generally held opinions about him and his nature.

True enough. But there are certainly moments in the session tapes where Carl is shown as a forceful personality, which are often manifested by his being especially attuned to production details while in the middle of a series of takes. He also clearly was prominently present at later sessions where Brian was not and often seems to be the one calling the shots (even in several snippets from sessions for Dennis' songs).

So while it would be unusual behavior at the time, it would not be 100% out of the question for Carl to be involved, particularly at a moment when the rest of the band was particularly concerned about its ongoing viability. If he came along, it was probably to impress Brian about just how strongly everyone felt about the matter, i.e. it would really get Brian's attention.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: guitarfool2002 on November 02, 2014, 01:23:56 PM
Let me ask again, since this is getting absurd. Of everything I wrote in this thread detailing the Redwood/Darlin-TTGA/Brian/BB's story from fall 1967, what is it that is apocryphal?

Look, it's fine to hammer out the details, the history, etc and debate what's there, but I'll try to phrase this as respectfully as I can: Exactly what the hell are some posters here looking for in terms of evidence, for lack of a better word?

As someone pointed out, we have Danny Hutton in multiple published (and unpublished) sources telling the story, we have Chuck Negron telling the story, we have Brian confirming it, as mentioned Carl isn't around to comment, so who else's word will satisfy the skeptics in light of everything already written here about that October 1967 incident? I can guess the answer, but that's another topic entirely.

Seriously, I'm beyond frustrated at this point with this discussion. If *my* research or my history report above is called into question for some personal reason, just let me know now, because that would be pretty pathetic and petty.

If anything I've written above is incorrect, about the song Darlin's inception, about the whole incident itself, give us something to back it up.

Otherwise, this going around and around is just silly. So basically what it seems like is we have session dates from AFM sheets that show when all this happened, so what does that mean in terms of Brian and Redwood to have a date of the 15th versus the 14th or whatever the case? We have *THREE MUSICIANS* who were there giving versions that line up. We have the Beach Boys going back into adding their vocals to Darlin around a week or two after the Redwood sessions ended at Heiders. We have a week after Redwood ended at Heiders *The Beach Boys* working on Wild Honey tracks, with a handful of them at Heiders. Again - It lines up with what I said here earlier. Redwood was out, the Beach Boys new album was the focus.

So is it about the Negron specifics? Are we *seriously* going to use those specifics as a springboard to call Negron's word into question, to discredit him in some way? Whether Brian cried or not at Heider's that day...is this the focus?

Someone called Brian's word into question again. That is sad but not surprising. So again, in all of this, whose word would be the final say that everyone should believe without hesitation in these issues? Tell us.

Here's the thing: The Beach Boys, specifically the ones who went to Wally Heider that day when Brian was working with Redwood, *did NOT want Brian producing Redwood or giving them hit songs*, and that was made clear to Brian and the members of Redwood.

That about closes the case, doesn't it? IT HAPPENED, whether Brian cried or whether the Beach Boys talked about ordering dinner that night, it happened, period.

Again, someone challenge the fact that the Beach Boys did not want Brian working with Redwood with something concrete, otherwise it continues to spin and spiral to the point where everyone who was there is discredited somehow expect for potentially an eyewitness or observer whose version better suits what some might want to believe happened versus what actually happened.

"The Beach Boys Did Not Want Brian To Produce Redwood", I'm going to make a sign, frame it, and hang it outside my front door.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: guitarfool2002 on November 02, 2014, 01:48:16 PM
I'll put this on the table as well: It isn't as much a case of these kinds of things being challenged in this way because that is almost par for the course by now depending on who was originally involved in these various issues, but what I'd like to know is *why* are they being challenged as they are, through attempts between the lines to try to discredit the word of some of those involved who have commented on this story?

What is the end game? What is the desired result after it all gets tallied up?


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: bgas on November 02, 2014, 02:05:15 PM

"The Beach Boys Did Not Want Brian To Produce Redwood", I'm going to make a sign, frame it, and hang it outside my front door.

I really wish you would! It will make it SOOO much easier to find your house at night


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Cam Mott on November 02, 2014, 03:09:40 PM
For what it is worth Jim Lockert told me that Brian was very much the group's  producer during his tenure. I know Mr. Desper covered for Jim during that period so he may have something to add.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Mikie on November 02, 2014, 03:57:48 PM
Let me ask again, since this is getting absurd. Of everything I wrote in this thread detailing the Redwood/Darlin-TTGA/Brian/BB's story from fall 1967, what is it that is apocryphal?

Look, it's fine to hammer out the details, the history, etc and debate what's there, but I'll try to phrase this as respectfully as I can: Exactly what the hell are some posters here looking for in terms of evidence, for lack of a better word?

As someone pointed out, we have Danny Hutton in multiple published (and unpublished) sources telling the story, we have Chuck Negron telling the story, we have Brian confirming it, as mentioned Carl isn't around to comment, so who else's word will satisfy the skeptics in light of everything already written here about that October 1967 incident? I can guess the answer, but that's another topic entirely.

Seriously, I'm beyond frustrated at this point with this discussion. If *my* research or my history report above is called into question for some personal reason, just let me know now, because that would be pretty pathetic and petty.

If anything I've written above is incorrect, about the song Darlin's inception, about the whole incident itself, give us something to back it up.

Otherwise, this going around and around is just silly. So basically what it seems like is we have session dates from AFM sheets that show when all this happened, so what does that mean in terms of Brian and Redwood to have a date of the 15th versus the 14th or whatever the case? We have *THREE MUSICIANS* who were there giving versions that line up. We have the Beach Boys going back into adding their vocals to Darlin around a week or two after the Redwood sessions ended at Heiders. We have a week after Redwood ended at Heiders *The Beach Boys* working on Wild Honey tracks, with a handful of them at Heiders. Again - It lines up with what I said here earlier. Redwood was out, the Beach Boys new album was the focus.

So is it about the Negron specifics? Are we *seriously* going to use those specifics as a springboard to call Negron's word into question, to discredit him in some way? Whether Brian cried or not at Heider's that day...is this the focus?

Someone called Brian's word into question again. That is sad but not surprising. So again, in all of this, whose word would be the final say that everyone should believe without hesitation in these issues? Tell us.

Here's the thing: The Beach Boys, specifically the ones who went to Wally Heider that day when Brian was working with Redwood, *did NOT want Brian producing Redwood or giving them hit songs*, and that was made clear to Brian and the members of Redwood.

That about closes the case, doesn't it? IT HAPPENED, whether Brian cried or whether the Beach Boys talked about ordering dinner that night, it happened, period.

Again, someone challenge the fact that the Beach Boys did not want Brian working with Redwood with something concrete, otherwise it continues to spin and spiral to the point where everyone who was there is discredited somehow expect for potentially an eyewitness or observer whose version better suits what some might want to believe happened versus what actually happened.

"The Beach Boys Did Not Want Brian To Produce Redwood", I'm going to make a sign, frame it, and hang it outside my front door.

Join the club!! The other day, two posters questioned the accuracy of the date I posted of a picture of Brian and Michael Jackson. A simple thing like that (information that can be accessed on the internet) gets second-guessed even though it's correct and already established. I sometimes question dates too, but not when the evidence is right in front of you slapping you in the face!


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Nicko1234 on November 02, 2014, 04:27:13 PM
Some people are going to question and nitpick things on any message board.

That doesn`t mean there is some great conspiracy going on though.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Chocolate Shake Man on November 02, 2014, 04:37:53 PM
I am with Guitarfool though in expressing some confusion.

The other day we were talking about the incident where Mike brought champagne to the "sort of" wake that followed Dennis's funeral. We were told in no uncertain terms that the incident "never happened" and the proof was that thirty years later, Mike said it didn't happen. Thus, the incident was apocryphal.

In this case, we have an incident which has been historically put forth and, now, corroborated by three different people who were there. Yet despite this, that incident remains apocryphal.

So I am somewhat confused here.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Ray Lawlor on November 02, 2014, 06:01:09 PM
GuitarFool;  I can tell you that I heard this straight from the horses mouth ; what went down at Wally Heiders is what Negron has related in his book.   

Quite interesting. I do have to ask Ray, is it you asking Brian about this stuff? Or him bringing it up? Cuz I have to imagine that something like this has to be really traumatic still for him. And while we're at it, if this is true as you say (and I have no reason to doubt you), does Brian still harbor resentment against Carl and Al for this, or has he let bygones be bygones, especially considering I'm sure he did quite a bit to hurt those guys to in the intervening years.

Actually ; I never have asked Brian about this, nor would I ever ask him about something that , as you say , had to have been really traumatic for him , and essentially something that still bothers him. As I said , I heard it from the horses mouth; but I guess that needs more clarification on this forum. So ; it was early August, 2006,  and I was driving Brian and Danny Hutton , in Brian's car, a navy blue 2006 Mercedes Benz CLS55 AMG ( best car I have ever driven), to Scott Bennett's place where they were going to cut "Rave On" , the Buddy Holly tune.Danny brought a Buddy Holly CD to play in the car on the ride over so he could show Brian how he could sing the tune; Brian said no , forget that,  we are going to do it totally different than the original. Anyway;  Scott called as we crossed over the Coldwater Canyon intersection up on Mulholland Drive, and asked if we could get there about two hours later than scheduled, since he was running late in a session.  So Danny knew a bar in the area by Scott's , and the three of us camped out there for about an hour and a half; maybe a bit more.  Brian was sitting on the barstool to my left ; Danny was sitting on the barstool to my right ; I was standing in the center, facing them both. Brian and I had Stella Artois on draft ; I recall Danny had either a glass of wine or a Corona ; that part I can't really be sure. Their conversation was intensely personal ; ALL of it was centered around 1966-68; both personal stuff and BB's related. Regarding the Redwood incident, Brian initiated that part of the conversation. Essentially Brian apologized to Danny for "what happened with Mike and Carl at Wally Heiders"  , but that he couldn't do anything about it ( he did not mention Al). Danny was saying to him it was ok , it didn't matter and he was never angry with Brian about it, that he knew it wasn't Brian's call.  Brian had thought that Danny held a  major grudge against him for bailing out on Redwood, but Danny reassured him that this was never the case and to please let it go. I think he did.  


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Mikie on November 02, 2014, 06:18:24 PM
That's something. Water under the bridge but I wonder if this was the first time it was discussed between the two since the incident. A little surprising - maybe Brian finally felt at ease to finally bring it up after all those years or he was more concerned about clearing the air with Danny than anything else. I mean, I'd be surprised after all that partying they did in the late 60's/70's that it wasn't brought up before. Interesting, Ray.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: bgas on November 02, 2014, 06:21:49 PM
GuitarFool;  I can tell you that I heard this straight from the horses mouth ; what went down at Wally Heiders is what Negron has related in his book.   

Quite interesting. I do have to ask Ray, is it you asking Brian about this stuff? Or him bringing it up? Cuz I have to imagine that something like this has to be really traumatic still for him. And while we're at it, if this is true as you say (and I have no reason to doubt you), does Brian still harbor resentment against Carl and Al for this, or has he let bygones be bygones, especially considering I'm sure he did quite a bit to hurt those guys to in the intervening years.

Actually ; I never have asked Brian about this, nor would I ever ask him about something that , as you say , had to have been really traumatic for him , and essentially something that still bothers him. As I said , I heard it from the horses mouth; but I guess that needs more clarification on this forum. So ; it was early August, 2006,  and I was driving Brian and Danny Hutton , in Brian's car, a navy blue 2006 Mercedes Benz CLS55 AMG ( best car I have ever driven), to Scott Bennett's place where they were going to cut "Rave On" , the Buddy Holly tune.Danny brought a Buddy Holly CD to play in the car on the ride over so he could show Brian how he could sing the tune; Brian said no , forget that,  we are going to do it totally different than the original. Anyway;  Scott called as we crossed over the Coldwater Canyon intersection up on Mulholland Drive, and asked if we could get there about two hours later than scheduled, since he was running late in a session.  So Danny knew a bar in the area by Scott's , and the three of us camped out there for about an hour and a half; maybe a bit more.  Brian was sitting on the barstool to my left ; Danny was sitting on the barstool to my right ; I was standing in the center, facing them both. Brian and I had Stella Artois on draft ; I recall Danny had either a glass of wine or a Corona ; that part I can't really be sure. Their conversation was intensely personal ; ALL of it was centered around 1966-68; both personal stuff and BB's related. Regarding the Redwood incident, Brian initiated that part of the conversation. Essentially Brian apologized to Danny for "what happened with Mike and Carl at Wally Heiders"  , but that he couldn't do anything about it ( he did not mention Al). Danny was saying to him it was ok , it didn't matter and he was never angry with Brian about it, that he knew it wasn't Brian's call.  Brian had thought that Danny held a  major grudge against him for bailing out on Redwood, but Danny reassured him that this was never the case and to please let it go. I think he did.  

  Obviously, Brian with his prescient knowledge of the future, arranged to have this conversation with Danny, in your company, so that you'd be able to relate the story to us and quash any rumors that wouldn't jibe with the real story!


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Ray Lawlor on November 02, 2014, 06:26:33 PM
That's something. Water under the bridge but I wonder if this was the first time it was discussed between the two since the incident. A little surprising - maybe Brian finally felt at ease to finally bring it up after all those years or he was more concerned about clearing the air with Danny than anything else. I mean, I'd be surprised after all that partying they did in the late 60's/70's that it wasn't brought up before. Interesting, Ray.

Mikie;

I wasn't a bit surprised as things sit and fester with Brian forever  , and it was obvious that there were other things between them that had not been addressed in eons ; stuff I had certainly never heard about , and definitely could never repeat. 


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Ray Lawlor on November 02, 2014, 06:29:19 PM
GuitarFool;  I can tell you that I heard this straight from the horses mouth ; what went down at Wally Heiders is what Negron has related in his book.   

Quite interesting. I do have to ask Ray, is it you asking Brian about this stuff? Or him bringing it up? Cuz I have to imagine that something like this has to be really traumatic still for him. And while we're at it, if this is true as you say (and I have no reason to doubt you), does Brian still harbor resentment against Carl and Al for this, or has he let bygones be bygones, especially considering I'm sure he did quite a bit to hurt those guys to in the intervening years.

Actually ; I never have asked Brian about this, nor would I ever ask him about something that , as you say , had to have been really traumatic for him , and essentially something that still bothers him. As I said , I heard it from the horses mouth; but I guess that needs more clarification on this forum. So ; it was early August, 2006,  and I was driving Brian and Danny Hutton , in Brian's car, a navy blue 2006 Mercedes Benz CLS55 AMG ( best car I have ever driven), to Scott Bennett's place where they were going to cut "Rave On" , the Buddy Holly tune.Danny brought a Buddy Holly CD to play in the car on the ride over so he could show Brian how he could sing the tune; Brian said no , forget that,  we are going to do it totally different than the original. Anyway;  Scott called as we crossed over the Coldwater Canyon intersection up on Mulholland Drive, and asked if we could get there about two hours later than scheduled, since he was running late in a session.  So Danny knew a bar in the area by Scott's , and the three of us camped out there for about an hour and a half; maybe a bit more.  Brian was sitting on the barstool to my left ; Danny was sitting on the barstool to my right ; I was standing in the center, facing them both. Brian and I had Stella Artois on draft ; I recall Danny had either a glass of wine or a Corona ; that part I can't really be sure. Their conversation was intensely personal ; ALL of it was centered around 1966-68; both personal stuff and BB's related. Regarding the Redwood incident, Brian initiated that part of the conversation. Essentially Brian apologized to Danny for "what happened with Mike and Carl at Wally Heiders"  , but that he couldn't do anything about it ( he did not mention Al). Danny was saying to him it was ok , it didn't matter and he was never angry with Brian about it, that he knew it wasn't Brian's call.  Brian had thought that Danny held a  major grudge against him for bailing out on Redwood, but Danny reassured him that this was never the case and to please let it go. I think he did.  

  Obviously, Brian with his prescient knowledge of the future, arranged to have this conversation with Danny, in your company, so that you'd be able to relate the story to us and quash any rumors that wouldn't jibe with the real story!

Yes sir. An HG Wells moment.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Jim V. on November 02, 2014, 07:16:46 PM
Actually ; I never have asked Brian about this, nor would I ever ask him about something that , as you say , had to have been really traumatic for him , and essentially something that still bothers him. As I said , I heard it from the horses mouth; but I guess that needs more clarification on this forum. So ; it was early August, 2006,  and I was driving Brian and Danny Hutton , in Brian's car, a navy blue 2006 Mercedes Benz CLS55 AMG ( best car I have ever driven), to Scott Bennett's place where they were going to cut "Rave On" , the Buddy Holly tune.Danny brought a Buddy Holly CD to play in the car on the ride over so he could show Brian how he could sing the tune; Brian said no , forget that,  we are going to do it totally different than the original. Anyway;  Scott called as we crossed over the Coldwater Canyon intersection up on Mulholland Drive, and asked if we could get there about two hours later than scheduled, since he was running late in a session.  So Danny knew a bar in the area by Scott's , and the three of us camped out there for about an hour and a half; maybe a bit more.  Brian was sitting on the barstool to my left ; Danny was sitting on the barstool to my right ; I was standing in the center, facing them both. Brian and I had Stella Artois on draft ; I recall Danny had either a glass of wine or a Corona ; that part I can't really be sure. Their conversation was intensely personal ; ALL of it was centered around 1966-68; both personal stuff and BB's related. Regarding the Redwood incident, Brian initiated that part of the conversation. Essentially Brian apologized to Danny for "what happened with Mike and Carl at Wally Heiders"  , but that he couldn't do anything about it ( he did not mention Al). Danny was saying to him it was ok , it didn't matter and he was never angry with Brian about it, that he knew it wasn't Brian's call.  Brian had thought that Danny held a  major grudge against him for bailing out on Redwood, but Danny reassured him that this was never the case and to please let it go. I think he did. 

Wow. Ray, I have to say that as far as the info and stories about "the real Brian these days" is incredible, and brings us (or at least me) back to the idea that Brian indeed still is that guy who made Pet Sounds and "Surf's Up" and whatever else. He was there, he did it, and he's still here. Been through all the dark years, the better years, whatever. Still here, and still able to share it. Thank you so, so much Ray for sharing these stories with us, just as a peak into the life of Brian Wilson these days and what an interesting person he still is.

I know a bunch of people on here are already discarding it before it comes out, but I'm hoping his upcoming autobiography might be quite interesting if he's truly into it.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Ray Lawlor on November 02, 2014, 07:30:59 PM
Actually ; I never have asked Brian about this, nor would I ever ask him about something that , as you say , had to have been really traumatic for him , and essentially something that still bothers him. As I said , I heard it from the horses mouth; but I guess that needs more clarification on this forum. So ; it was early August, 2006,  and I was driving Brian and Danny Hutton , in Brian's car, a navy blue 2006 Mercedes Benz CLS55 AMG ( best car I have ever driven), to Scott Bennett's place where they were going to cut "Rave On" , the Buddy Holly tune.Danny brought a Buddy Holly CD to play in the car on the ride over so he could show Brian how he could sing the tune; Brian said no , forget that,  we are going to do it totally different than the original. Anyway;  Scott called as we crossed over the Coldwater Canyon intersection up on Mulholland Drive, and asked if we could get there about two hours later than scheduled, since he was running late in a session.  So Danny knew a bar in the area by Scott's , and the three of us camped out there for about an hour and a half; maybe a bit more.  Brian was sitting on the barstool to my left ; Danny was sitting on the barstool to my right ; I was standing in the center, facing them both. Brian and I had Stella Artois on draft ; I recall Danny had either a glass of wine or a Corona ; that part I can't really be sure. Their conversation was intensely personal ; ALL of it was centered around 1966-68; both personal stuff and BB's related. Regarding the Redwood incident, Brian initiated that part of the conversation. Essentially Brian apologized to Danny for "what happened with Mike and Carl at Wally Heiders"  , but that he couldn't do anything about it ( he did not mention Al). Danny was saying to him it was ok , it didn't matter and he was never angry with Brian about it, that he knew it wasn't Brian's call.  Brian had thought that Danny held a  major grudge against him for bailing out on Redwood, but Danny reassured him that this was never the case and to please let it go. I think he did.  

Wow. Ray, I have to say that as far as The info and stories about "the real Brian these days" is incredible, and brings us (or at least me) back to the idea that Brian indeed still is that guy who made Pet Sounds and "Surf's Up" and whatever else. He was there, he did it, and he's still here. Been through all the dark years, the better years, whatever. Still here, and still able to share it. Thank you so, so much Ray for sharing these stories with us, just as a peak into the life of Brian Wilson these days and what an interesting person he still is.

I know a bunch of people on here are already discarding it before it comes out, but I'm hoping his upcoming autobiography might be quite interesting if he's truly into it.

"That guy" is still there on many levels; the 2006-2007 time frame was really great for him.  I figure its 2014 and there is a new record coming ; this is like playing with house money. If he really is into telling his story it will really be a great read ; so much about the guy that none of us know. I hope he applies himself to it.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on November 03, 2014, 01:43:34 AM
I've never questioned that the band stopped Brian working with Redwood, and appropriated the actual tapes, and recently the evidence that Mike, and possibly Carl, actually turned up at a session to stop the project has become compelling. My problem remains with Negron's claim that he actually saw them browbeat Brian in the studio to the point of him breaking down in tears. No-one else has said that, even Danny, who surely would... and now Ray's personal recollection - which I wouldn't dream of questioning - supports that, unless I'm misreading. That's the apocryphal part to my thinking. Ray's one of the very few folk in the BB cosmos I'd trust implicitly not to embroider or comment on something he wasn't present for, and he didn't relate any such event from two of the principals either. I'm pretty sure Negron was "improving" on what actually happened, several decades later. Something undoubtedly happened, but not how he claimed.

This small point aside, this thread has done sterling work in establishing the chronology and finer detail of the very brief period when Brian was working with Redwood. Now, about "Sunflower Maiden"...


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Alan Smith on November 03, 2014, 03:06:23 AM
Thanks, AGD - Hopefully that will give guitarfool2002 the closure that we deserve.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Chocolate Shake Man on November 03, 2014, 06:19:18 AM
I've never questioned that the band stopped Brian working with Redwood, and appropriated the actual tapes, and recently the evidence that Mike, and possibly Carl, actually turned up at a session to stop the project has become compelling. My problem remains with Negron's claim that he actually saw them browbeat Brian in the studio to the point of him breaking down in tears.

A quick look back on the thread will demonstrate that this is false:

There is that oft-told legend of several beach Boys going to the studio while Brian was cutting a track with Redwood, they pulled him aside, and when he came back he told Redwood he couldn't work on their album anymore because he had to do production work for The Beach Boys.

Oft-told... and generally regarded as apocryphal.

Nowhere in the quote that you suggest is "regarded as apocryphal" is there any mention of Brian being brow-beaten and reduced to tears. In fact, what you suggested was regarded as apocryphal is precisely what you now note that you "never questioned" - that the band stopped Brian from working with Redwood.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on November 03, 2014, 02:45:58 PM
I was assuming - incorrectly, evidently - that posters in this thread were au fait with the finer detail of this episode (i.e. Negron's claim). You really think I was disputing the long-established fact that "Darlin'" was appropriated from the Redwood project ?


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: bgas on November 03, 2014, 03:17:25 PM
You really think I was disputing the long-established fact that "Darlin'" was appropriated from the Redwood project ?

Not a one of us would be that daft


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Mikie on November 03, 2014, 03:18:37 PM
"Negron's claim that he actually saw them browbeat Brian in the studio to the point of him breaking down in tears".

Seems to me I read that somewhere before Negron's book came out (1999). Pretty sure I did.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on November 03, 2014, 03:40:48 PM
You really think I was disputing the long-established fact that "Darlin'" was appropriated from the Redwood project ?

Not a one of us would be that daft


rockandroll excepted, as their post confirms.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: CenturyDeprived on November 03, 2014, 03:46:09 PM
"Negron's claim that he actually saw them browbeat Brian in the studio to the point of him breaking down in tears".

Seems to me I read that somewhere before Negron's book came out (1999). Pretty sure I did.

Well, to the doubters, I ask the question: what would the definition of "browbeating" be with regards to this?

What actions/words/body language could have been used that might (or might not) have constituted emotional browbeating in this instance?

It's a fine line to be sure, but I do sincerely wonder where those people (who are doubters) would honestly draw that line.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: SMiLE Brian on November 03, 2014, 03:49:24 PM
I think some of us are daft enough to follow Mike Love's version of BBs events... ::)


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Chocolate Shake Man on November 03, 2014, 04:27:48 PM
I was assuming - incorrectly, evidently - that posters in this thread were au fait with the finer detail of this episode (i.e. Negron's claim). You really think I was disputing the long-established fact that "Darlin'" was appropriated from the Redwood project ?

What you disputed from the get go was the "legend of several beach Boys going to the studio while Brian was cutting a track with Redwood." "They pulled him aside, and when he came back he told Redwood he couldn't work on their album anymore because he had to do production work for The Beach Boys." When evidence was given by two different people from two more participants who were there, and you were asked to clarify again if the incident was still apocryphal, you again repeated that it was. And this was after guitarfool made it clear that he was not talking about the crying and the brow beating, just that the basic event happened. Even after that point was made you were still saying the event was apocryphal. So I suppose that I am to infer now that what you really meant was that the stuff that was apocryphal was precisely the stuff that nobody was talking about and the stuff that really happened was the only thing that anybody brought up. Hence, your use of the term "apocryphal." In that case, I apologize for taking you at your word and I apologize for failing to make an assumption about what you weren't saying. After all, I know how forgiving you are with others when they are not entirely clear in their points.

I particularly like how you cast me as ignorant - that I am not "au fait with the finer detail of this episode (i.e. Negron's claim)" when in fact it was you who was unclear about the fact that Guitarfool was not necessarily talking specifically about Negron's claim but rather, in addition, the (multiple) claims made by Danny Hutton. It was you who said that Hutton has never spoken on the matter and had to be reminded that he has, in fact, been on record twice about the matter. Keep in mind, that Guitarfool was not speaking about Negron's claim and, in fact, you were the first one to bring it up. He could have easily been talking about the Hutton claims. Perhaps if you had been "au fait" with the entire documented record of this event, you wouldn't have leapt to the conclusion that guitarfool must have been speaking specifically about the incident as related by Negron.

Recall that you were specifically asked by Guitarfool to clarify: "Are you suggesting this did not happen, or are you suggesting the details of what may or may not have been said or perceived have been apocryphal?" You never answered this question. And now you are saying this: "You really think I was disputing the long-established fact that "Darlin'" was appropriated from the Redwood project ?" The fact is that when you were given an opportunity to make this clear - exactly what you thought did and did not happen - you didn't (well, you said, that the only source on this matter was Negron and that Negron was questionable), hence why Guitarfool kept asking. Now it's our fault for not knowing where you stood on an issue that you were asked about and didn't answer.

And if you weren't questioning the fact that there was at least some kind of incident in the studio, then what was your point about the Three Dog Night chronology about?

What galls me about this is if  we switched places, I would be facing a barrage of insults for not knowing my history and for making assumptions. But since we haven't switched places, I am unsurprised that the end result is that I am still facing a barrage of insults.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again on November 03, 2014, 04:51:34 PM
Didn't either Negron or Hutton also say (in regards to Redwood/Darlin-gate) that if Mike was the big bad guy here, that they didn't blame him and would have done the same thing if they were in his shoes?

Good enough for me to move on.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: alf wiedersehen on November 03, 2014, 04:58:44 PM
What galls me about this is if  we switched places, I would be facing a barrage of insults for not knowing my history and for making assumptions. But since we haven't switched places, I am unsurprised that the end result is that I am still facing a barrage of insults.

I don't know if "barrage of insults" equals "one insult from person I am having an argument with".
Don't make something bigger out of it than it really is.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: CenturyDeprived on November 03, 2014, 05:02:46 PM
Didn't either Negron or Hutton also say (in regards to Redwood/Darlin-gate) that if Mike was the big bad guy here, that they didn't blame him and would have done the same thing if they were in his shoes?

Good enough for me to move on.

Maybe the sentiment of Mike/Carl being unhappy about a potential hit being given away was perfectly understandable to them, but that the method and way which it ultimately went down (the act of communicating this displeasure to Brian) was in and of itself very uncool. Just a possibility to consider.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Chocolate Shake Man on November 03, 2014, 05:07:16 PM
What galls me about this is if  we switched places, I would be facing a barrage of insults for not knowing my history and for making assumptions. But since we haven't switched places, I am unsurprised that the end result is that I am still facing a barrage of insults.

I don't know if "barrage of insults" equals "one insult from person I am having an argument with".
Don't make something bigger out of it than it really is.

Did Vintage Music ever find that button?


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again on November 03, 2014, 05:14:00 PM
Didn't either Negron or Hutton also say (in regards to Redwood/Darlin-gate) that if Mike was the big bad guy here, that they didn't blame him and would have done the same thing if they were in his shoes?

Good enough for me to move on.

Maybe the sentiment of Mike/Carl being unhappy about a potential hit being given away was perfectly understandable to them, but that the method and way which it ultimately went down (the act of communicating this displeasure to Brian) was in and of itself very uncool. Just a possibility to consider.

Oh, I'm not saying they weren't "assholes" about it or couldn't have dealt with it better, but considering the precarious situation there were in financially, popularity-wise, and general in-need-of-a-hit-ness, one can be a bit sympathetic for a bit of hurt feelings/panic/anger ..... Sometimes in live such emotions can be perfectly valid.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: bgas on November 03, 2014, 05:27:24 PM
Two tidbits from the Thee Dog Night Story CD Booklet( liner notes by David Leaf): 

    (http://i61.tinypic.com/n1qe5j.jpg)   

    (http://i61.tinypic.com/8vu5hh.jpg)


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: SMiLE Brian on November 03, 2014, 05:29:48 PM
Nice, more proof to bring down the agenda of rewriting BBs history.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: CenturyDeprived on November 03, 2014, 05:35:06 PM
Didn't either Negron or Hutton also say (in regards to Redwood/Darlin-gate) that if Mike was the big bad guy here, that they didn't blame him and would have done the same thing if they were in his shoes?

Good enough for me to move on.

Maybe the sentiment of Mike/Carl being unhappy about a potential hit being given away was perfectly understandable to them, but that the method and way which it ultimately went down (the act of communicating this displeasure to Brian) was in and of itself very uncool. Just a possibility to consider.

Oh, I'm not saying they weren't "assholes" about it or couldn't have dealt with it better, but considering the precarious situation there were in financially, popularity-wise, and general in-need-of-a-hit-ness, one can be a bit sympathetic for a bit of hurt feelings/panic/anger ..... Sometimes in live such emotions can be perfectly valid.

Iím just guessing that the outsiders witnessed a probable unhealthy family communication style (complicated by the BB band dynamic), and may have observed what they as outsiders believed to be a bullying communication style. Yes, the dreaded ďbĒ word, which I know is completely unacceptable for some people to ever associate in the remotest of remote ways with Mike.

But face it Ė maybe, just maybe it did happen like that. We donít know. I wouldnít outright dismiss the possibility. I think in particular the situation comes off a bit seeming in that way, since Iíd imagine Brian branching out to work with others at that time was probably in part due to his desire to try and avoid the politics/emotions that were baggage around the fallout of post-SMiLE BB-ville at that time. He was probably seeking an escape, and was pulled back in by people (family) who knew how to say what was needed to get him to do so. Brian's buttons were pushed, so to speak. How exactly they were pushed, we don't exactly know.

That said, yes I can totally understand and empathize with the idea that Brianís bandmates were desperate to not have a repeat of Surf City being given away, especially since they needed a Surf City-sized hit in the worst way at the time.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again on November 03, 2014, 05:39:13 PM
Didn't either Negron or Hutton also say (in regards to Redwood/Darlin-gate) that if Mike was the big bad guy here, that they didn't blame him and would have done the same thing if they were in his shoes?

Good enough for me to move on.

Maybe the sentiment of Mike/Carl being unhappy about a potential hit being given away was perfectly understandable to them, but that the method and way which it ultimately went down (the act of communicating this displeasure to Brian) was in and of itself very uncool. Just a possibility to consider.

Oh, I'm not saying they weren't "assholes" about it or couldn't have dealt with it better, but considering the precarious situation there were in financially, popularity-wise, and general in-need-of-a-hit-ness, one can be a bit sympathetic for a bit of hurt feelings/panic/anger ..... Sometimes in live such emotions can be perfectly valid.

Iím just guessing that the outsiders witnessed a probable unhealthy family communication style (complicated by the BB band dynamic), and may have observed what they as outsiders believed to be a bullying communication style. Yes, the dreaded ďbĒ word, which I know is completely unacceptable for some people to ever associate in the remotest of remote ways with Mike.

But face it Ė maybe, just maybe it did happen like that. We donít know. I wouldnít outright dismiss the possibility. I think in particular the situation comes off a bit seeming in that way, since Iíd imagine Brian branching out to work with others at that time was probably in part due to his desire to try and avoid the politics/emotions that were baggage around the fallout of post-SMiLE BB-ville at that time. He was probably seeking an escape, and was pulled back in by people (family) who knew how to say what was needed to get him to do so. Brian's buttons were pushed, so to speak. How exactly they were pushed, we don't exactly know.

That said, yes I can totally understand and empathize with the idea that Brianís bandmates were desperate to not have a repeat of Surf City being given away, especially since they needed a Surf City-sized hit in the worst way at the time.

This was also going down in the studio the Beach Boys were all paying for, which likely didn't help...

I don't dispute how it reportedly went down. I'm just using a bit of empathy toward all those involved.

I've been in a billion bands and know exactly how it can feel when bandmates/leaders get tangled up in side projects, and this was with basically no stakes involved (other than emotional ones) in comparison with The Beach Boys.... and I've witnessed some pretty ugly scenes.

Maybe I can related a bit too much.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: alf wiedersehen on November 03, 2014, 05:49:07 PM
I think where the hesitation lies is with Negron's claim that Mike and Carl verbally abused Brian. Clearly, using all the different pieces, it seems safe to assume that Carl and Mike did intervene and stop Brian from working with Danny Hutton any further. However, none of the other sources we've seen - even Ray's own story - have any mention of Mike and Carl berating him off in another booth. It certainly doesn't seem like anything Carl would do or would be a part of.

Maybe it happened - and due to that claim's very nature, maybe it didn't. One side will spring to the "maybe it happened, so let's assume it did", while the other will say "maybe it didn't happen, so let's not assume it did". In the end, memories are extremely faulty (especially old ones) and no matter what, someone is going to be rewriting history with their telling. Probably everyone.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: CenturyDeprived on November 03, 2014, 05:56:49 PM
Didn't either Negron or Hutton also say (in regards to Redwood/Darlin-gate) that if Mike was the big bad guy here, that they didn't blame him and would have done the same thing if they were in his shoes?

Good enough for me to move on.

Maybe the sentiment of Mike/Carl being unhappy about a potential hit being given away was perfectly understandable to them, but that the method and way which it ultimately went down (the act of communicating this displeasure to Brian) was in and of itself very uncool. Just a possibility to consider.

Oh, I'm not saying they weren't "assholes" about it or couldn't have dealt with it better, but considering the precarious situation there were in financially, popularity-wise, and general in-need-of-a-hit-ness, one can be a bit sympathetic for a bit of hurt feelings/panic/anger ..... Sometimes in live such emotions can be perfectly valid.

Iím just guessing that the outsiders witnessed a probable unhealthy family communication style (complicated by the BB band dynamic), and may have observed what they as outsiders believed to be a bullying communication style. Yes, the dreaded ďbĒ word, which I know is completely unacceptable for some people to ever associate in the remotest of remote ways with Mike.

But face it Ė maybe, just maybe it did happen like that. We donít know. I wouldnít outright dismiss the possibility. I think in particular the situation comes off a bit seeming in that way, since Iíd imagine Brian branching out to work with others at that time was probably in part due to his desire to try and avoid the politics/emotions that were baggage around the fallout of post-SMiLE BB-ville at that time. He was probably seeking an escape, and was pulled back in by people (family) who knew how to say what was needed to get him to do so. Brian's buttons were pushed, so to speak. How exactly they were pushed, we don't exactly know.

That said, yes I can totally understand and empathize with the idea that Brianís bandmates were desperate to not have a repeat of Surf City being given away, especially since they needed a Surf City-sized hit in the worst way at the time.

This was also going down in the studio the Beach Boys were all paying for, which likely didn't help...

I don't dispute how it reportedly went down. I'm just using a bit of empathy toward all those involved.

I've been in a billion bands and know exactly how it can feel when bandmates/leaders get tangled up in side projects, and this was with basically no stakes involved (other than emotional ones) in comparison with The Beach Boys.... and I've witnessed some pretty ugly scenes.

Maybe I can related a bit too much.

I hadn't thought about the part that this was going down in the studio they were all paying for - you are correct, that certainly wouldn't have helped.  

And I can totally, absolutely get how get the side project thing would have been upsetting and threatening (not entirely dissimilar from VDP's recent presence perhaps being thought of as an unwanted side project within the BBs band itself). While I can have absolutely have empathy about that, I don't think that how some band members (mainly Mike I'm guessing) may have communicated to Brian should just be deemed by definition as acceptable. Maybe some of what he dealt with would have been termed emotional bullying/abuse.  And maybe that's an exaggeration. But I think the possibility should not be poopooed outright. Some people on this board I think have an "anything goes" type of ideology in discussing how Brian might have been subjected to some very unhealthy messed-up communication styles in this saga, as well as the SMiLE saga, and I don't think that's right.  


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again on November 03, 2014, 06:31:37 PM
I wonder what Mike's contributions to Darlin were exactly, as the credit reads (and has always read) Brian Wilson/Mike Love.

I know it was a re-jig of an earlier song by Brian/Mike called Thinking About My Baby (or something) ..... but was it re-written by Brian and Mike, or just Brian? .... Either way, with Mike having been a partial creator of the song in question, we can perhaps understand his apparent irritation a bit more.

Also, we don't know if The Beach Boys had brought the subject up "nicely" before the witnessed incident, so we don't know where at wit's end they might have been when this all went down.... Or maybe there were just being bullies .... Brian, being overly sensitive or not, was still bringing other people into the Beach Boy's only studio and working on a song composed by him and another Beach Boy, presumably intended for The Beach Boys, at a time when The Beach Boys had flames to their feet.... Maybe the others were being harsh assholes, but Brian's actions still count as being less than cool. Actions speak words too, ya know?


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: guitarfool2002 on November 03, 2014, 07:10:27 PM
I wonder what Mike's contributions to Darlin were exactly, as the credit reads (and has always read) Brian Wilson/Mike Love.

I know it was a re-jig of an earlier song by Brian/Mike called Thinking About My Baby (or something) ..... but was it re-written by Brian and Mike, or just Brian? .... Either way, with Mike having been a partial creator of the song in question, we can perhaps understand his apparent irritation a bit more.

Also, we don't know if The Beach Boys had brought the subject up "nicely" before the witnessed incident, so we don't know where at wit's end they might have been when this all went down.... Or maybe there were just being bullies .... Brian, being overly sensitive or not, was still bringing other people into the Beach Boy's only studio and working on a song composed by him and another Beach Boy, presumably intended for The Beach Boys, at a time when The Beach Boys had flames to their feet.... Maybe the others were being harsh assholes, but Brian's actions still count as being less than cool. Actions speak words too, ya know?

The statement that Brian was bringing other people into the Beach Boys' "only studio" is inaccurate. Check the various sessionographies, the majority of Wild Honey tracks and in general most sessions from October and November 1967 were done at Wally Heider's. This would include, too, "Time To Get Alone" by Redwood, and the Beach Boys own Darlin vocals, cut at Heider's October 27.

The Beach Boys had no ownership or financial interest in Wally Heider's then-new studio in LA, as far as anyone knows. And the home studio was still being built up into something permanent up to the Friends sessions in '68. So in no way did the band have only one studio, or rely on one studio to record.

The issue of paying studio fees to me is a red herring in this whole thing, as is the suggestion of Brian working with outside artists somehow being considered a negative.

*All* of the Beach Boys who had interest in Brother Records were in agreement with and supported the business model and plan started by David Anderle and picked up by Nick Grillo, throughout 1967. This includes Mike, who supported what David Anderle was doing from a financial standpoint and in how the business plans could benefit the band financially. One of the major elements of that business model and plan was to open up a business structure which would allow band members to scout, record, produce, develop, and release material from outside artists.

In the summer of 1967 Mike Love himself signed the comedy act "The Pickle Brothers" who had opened concerts for the BB's to the Brother label, and produced a session with them in the fall of 1967 for Brother.

Brian's choice of an outside artist to produce and record was Redwood.

Dennis later brought in Manson to record.

Carl later brought The Flame to the Brother label.

Right there, you have the four band members who had controlling interest in Brother Records each bringing in outside artists to demo, record/produce, and hopefully release in the form of a record in order to generate income for the Brother label and business structure...very much according to one of the key elements in the business plan which established Brother as a business venture for the band.

In that way, someone I think needs to explain to me how Brian bringing in the group Redwood to produce was any different in terms of following the Brother business plan than Mike bringing in the Pickle Brothers in the weeks prior to the Redwood sessions.

And as far as paying studio fees, that too was an investment as part of the Brother business plan, similar to how Brother would have paid the studio costs for The Flame, Manson, The Pickle Brothers, and any number of outside acts which band members other than Brian brought onto the Brother label.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: CenturyDeprived on November 03, 2014, 07:17:51 PM
I wonder what Mike's contributions to Darlin were exactly, as the credit reads (and has always read) Brian Wilson/Mike Love.

I know it was a re-jig of an earlier song by Brian/Mike called Thinking About My Baby (or something) ..... but was it re-written by Brian and Mike, or just Brian? .... Either way, with Mike having been a partial creator of the song in question, we can perhaps understand his apparent irritation a bit more.

Also, we don't know if The Beach Boys had brought the subject up "nicely" before the witnessed incident, so we don't know where at wit's end they might have been when this all went down.... Or maybe there were just being bullies .... Brian, being overly sensitive or not, was still bringing other people into the Beach Boy's only studio and working on a song composed by him and another Beach Boy, presumably intended for The Beach Boys, at a time when The Beach Boys had flames to their feet.... Maybe the others were being harsh assholes, but Brian's actions still count as being less than cool. Actions speak words too, ya know?

The statement that Brian was bringing other people into the Beach Boys' "only studio" is inaccurate. Check the various sessionographies, the majority of Wild Honey tracks and in general most sessions from October and November 1967 were done at Wally Heider's. This would include, too, "Time To Get Alone" by Redwood, and the Beach Boys own Darlin vocals, cut at Heider's October 27.

The Beach Boys had no ownership or financial interest in Wally Heider's then-new studio in LA, as far as anyone knows. And the home studio was still being built up into something permanent up to the Friends sessions in '68. So in no way did the band have only one studio, or rely on one studio to record.

The issue of paying studio fees to me is a red herring in this whole thing, as is the suggestion of Brian working with outside artists somehow being considered a negative.

*All* of the Beach Boys who had interest in Brother Records were in agreement with and supported the business model and plan started by David Anderle and picked up by Nick Grillo, throughout 1967. This includes Mike, who supported what David Anderle was doing from a financial standpoint and in how the business plans could benefit the band financially. One of the major elements of that business model and plan was to open up a business structure which would allow band members to scout, record, produce, develop, and release material from outside artists.

In the summer of 1967 Mike Love himself signed the comedy act "The Pickle Brothers" who had opened concerts for the BB's to the Brother label, and produced a session with them in the fall of 1967 for Brother.

Brian's choice of an outside artist to produce and record was Redwood.

Dennis later brought in Manson to record.

Carl later brought The Flame to the Brother label.

Right there, you have the four band members who had controlling interest in Brother Records each bringing in outside artists to demo, record/produce, and hopefully release in the form of a record in order to generate income for the Brother label and business structure...very much according to one of the key elements in the business plan which established Brother as a business venture for the band.

In that way, someone I think needs to explain to me how Brian bringing in the group Redwood to produce was any different in terms of following the Brother business plan than Mike bringing in the Pickle Brothers in the weeks prior to the Redwood sessions.

 

Perhaps it would have only been deemed "acceptable" and non-threatening to the other Boys if Brian (in addition to producing/writing for Redwood), was also simultaneously bringing his A-game to the BBs in terms of writing/producing for them. Was it sensed that Brian was too engaged with the outsiders, coupled with his interest level with the BBs waning?

I'm wondering if it was assumed (or maybe even spoken about inter-personally in the BBs beforehand) that whenever a BB member would bring in another artist, that the BBs member's priorities would nonetheless always lie with the BBs. This would make sense. Bandmates often don't want a member's side project to be a bigger priority than the main band. I would think Mike would feel this way most of all.

And if it was obvious that this wasn't the case (or that Brian's music with Redwood was "too good" to give away and better than the material he was writing for the BBs), that this may have set in motion a plan to stop Brian in his tracks.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Ray Lawlor on November 03, 2014, 07:44:50 PM
I wonder what Mike's contributions to Darlin were exactly, as the credit reads (and has always read) Brian Wilson/Mike Love.

I know it was a re-jig of an earlier song by Brian/Mike called Thinking About My Baby (or something) ..... but was it re-written by Brian and Mike, or just Brian? .... Either way, with Mike having been a partial creator of the song in question, we can perhaps understand his apparent irritation a bit more.

Also, we don't know if The Beach Boys had brought the subject up "nicely" before the witnessed incident, so we don't know where at wit's end they might have been when this all went down.... Or maybe there were just being bullies .... Brian, being overly sensitive or not, was still bringing other people into the Beach Boy's only studio and working on a song composed by him and another Beach Boy, presumably intended for The Beach Boys, at a time when The Beach Boys had flames to their feet.... Maybe the others were being harsh assholes, but Brian's actions still count as being less than cool. Actions speak words too, ya know?

The statement that Brian was bringing other people into the Beach Boys' "only studio" is inaccurate. Check the various sessionographies, the majority of Wild Honey tracks and in general most sessions from October and November 1967 were done at Wally Heider's. This would include, too, "Time To Get Alone" by Redwood, and the Beach Boys own Darlin vocals, cut at Heider's October 27.

The Beach Boys had no ownership or financial interest in Wally Heider's then-new studio in LA, as far as anyone knows. And the home studio was still being built up into something permanent up to the Friends sessions in '68. So in no way did the band have only one studio, or rely on one studio to record.

The issue of paying studio fees to me is a red herring in this whole thing, as is the suggestion of Brian working with outside artists somehow being considered a negative.

*All* of the Beach Boys who had interest in Brother Records were in agreement with and supported the business model and plan started by David Anderle and picked up by Nick Grillo, throughout 1967. This includes Mike, who supported what David Anderle was doing from a financial standpoint and in how the business plans could benefit the band financially. One of the major elements of that business model and plan was to open up a business structure which would allow band members to scout, record, produce, develop, and release material from outside artists.

In the summer of 1967 Mike Love himself signed the comedy act "The Pickle Brothers" who had opened concerts for the BB's to the Brother label, and produced a session with them in the fall of 1967 for Brother.

Brian's choice of an outside artist to produce and record was Redwood.

Dennis later brought in Manson to record.

Carl later brought The Flame to the Brother label.

Right there, you have the four band members who had controlling interest in Brother Records each bringing in outside artists to demo, record/produce, and hopefully release in the form of a record in order to generate income for the Brother label and business structure...very much according to one of the key elements in the business plan which established Brother as a business venture for the band.

In that way, someone I think needs to explain to me how Brian bringing in the group Redwood to produce was any different in terms of following the Brother business plan than Mike bringing in the Pickle Brothers in the weeks prior to the Redwood sessions.

And as far as paying studio fees, that too was an investment as part of the Brother business plan, similar to how Brother would have paid the studio costs for The Flame, Manson, The Pickle Brothers, and any number of outside acts which band members other than Brian brought onto the Brother label.

GuitarFool; great post .  The only thing I could add is the following: In November 1967 , right before Thanksgiving, I saw the Beach Boys at Westchester County Civic Center in NY. One of the opening acts was The Pickle Brothers. I remember one of the "jokes" that went something like this...." So we were in Hawaii in August with The Beach Boys and we went to a luau on the beach one night; all the girls were wearing grass skirts. Mike Love tried to smoke them".  Curley Joe was funnier than the Pickle Brothers. 


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: guitarfool2002 on November 03, 2014, 08:01:16 PM
I wonder what Mike's contributions to Darlin were exactly, as the credit reads (and has always read) Brian Wilson/Mike Love.

I know it was a re-jig of an earlier song by Brian/Mike called Thinking About My Baby (or something) ..... but was it re-written by Brian and Mike, or just Brian? .... Either way, with Mike having been a partial creator of the song in question, we can perhaps understand his apparent irritation a bit more.

Also, we don't know if The Beach Boys had brought the subject up "nicely" before the witnessed incident, so we don't know where at wit's end they might have been when this all went down.... Or maybe there were just being bullies .... Brian, being overly sensitive or not, was still bringing other people into the Beach Boy's only studio and working on a song composed by him and another Beach Boy, presumably intended for The Beach Boys, at a time when The Beach Boys had flames to their feet.... Maybe the others were being harsh assholes, but Brian's actions still count as being less than cool. Actions speak words too, ya know?

The statement that Brian was bringing other people into the Beach Boys' "only studio" is inaccurate. Check the various sessionographies, the majority of Wild Honey tracks and in general most sessions from October and November 1967 were done at Wally Heider's. This would include, too, "Time To Get Alone" by Redwood, and the Beach Boys own Darlin vocals, cut at Heider's October 27.

The Beach Boys had no ownership or financial interest in Wally Heider's then-new studio in LA, as far as anyone knows. And the home studio was still being built up into something permanent up to the Friends sessions in '68. So in no way did the band have only one studio, or rely on one studio to record.

The issue of paying studio fees to me is a red herring in this whole thing, as is the suggestion of Brian working with outside artists somehow being considered a negative.

*All* of the Beach Boys who had interest in Brother Records were in agreement with and supported the business model and plan started by David Anderle and picked up by Nick Grillo, throughout 1967. This includes Mike, who supported what David Anderle was doing from a financial standpoint and in how the business plans could benefit the band financially. One of the major elements of that business model and plan was to open up a business structure which would allow band members to scout, record, produce, develop, and release material from outside artists.

In the summer of 1967 Mike Love himself signed the comedy act "The Pickle Brothers" who had opened concerts for the BB's to the Brother label, and produced a session with them in the fall of 1967 for Brother.

Brian's choice of an outside artist to produce and record was Redwood.

Dennis later brought in Manson to record.

Carl later brought The Flame to the Brother label.

Right there, you have the four band members who had controlling interest in Brother Records each bringing in outside artists to demo, record/produce, and hopefully release in the form of a record in order to generate income for the Brother label and business structure...very much according to one of the key elements in the business plan which established Brother as a business venture for the band.

In that way, someone I think needs to explain to me how Brian bringing in the group Redwood to produce was any different in terms of following the Brother business plan than Mike bringing in the Pickle Brothers in the weeks prior to the Redwood sessions.

 

Perhaps it would have only been deemed "acceptable" and non-threatening to the other Boys if Brian (in addition to producing/writing for Redwood), was also simultaneously bringing his A-game to the BBs in terms of writing/producing for them. Was it sensed that Brian was too engaged with the outsiders, coupled with his interest level with the BBs waning?

I'm wondering if it was assumed (or maybe even spoken about inter-personally in the BBs beforehand) that whenever a BB member would bring in another artist, that the BBs member's priorities would nonetheless always lie with the BBs. This would make sense. Bandmates often don't want a member's side project to be a bigger priority than the main band. I would think Mike would feel this way most of all.

And if it was obvious that this wasn't the case (or that Brian's music with Redwood was "too good" to give away and better than the material he was writing for the BBs), that this may have set in motion a plan to stop Brian in his tracks.

I have to bust a myth here, or at least correct some information that I think the reply may have been based on.

We're talking about bringing Brian's "A Game" to the band, about priorities, about saving the choice cuts for the Beach Boys.

I think we're forgetting about the "Wild Honey" single. That single was released in the USA the last week in October 1967. It had been in the can since late September and was being readied for release as the Redwood sessions were happening.

Some of the comments suggest that the Beach Boys must have had a crystal ball and were able to see into the future to predict how that single was going to chart, if they were worried about Brian bringing something less to their table and taking the choice cuts to Redwood, if this happened a week or so before the new single would even come out.

When it *did* come out, here's the myth-busting, it actually performed very well regionally, usually cracking the top 20 in most AM Top 40 surveys and in some areas it went top 5 going well into November '67. So even going into November '67, if the band was getting reports that the single was still climbing in certain regions like DC, Philly, Detroit, etc, how would it lead them to think Brian had not given them his A Game effort on this current single?

Consider from that era of top-40 radio that those specific markets I mentioned for a reason were more heavy markets for R&B and soul music, and Wild Honey was even according to Carl, Brian's attempt to go for a heavier, white R&B sound. And in DC, for one, it reached #2 locally with the "Good Guys" station, and other cities saw it hit top 10 or even top 5.

So if the Beach Boys as a whole were thinking what has been suggested they were thinking, about Brian keeping the "good stuff" for himself and Redwood while giving the band scraps, how could they possibly have known the chart performance of their newest single when the Redwood stuff happened considering:

A - it had not yet been released

and B - as they were finalizing the album into November 1967 the current single was still climbing the charts in various radio markets around the US. Did they know how far it would go before it was released?

So I just don't put much weight if any at all in the theory that the band did what they did based on the quality of work Brian was bringing to them considering the new single had not even been released, and no one unless they were channeling Nostradamus could predict how it would perform after it hit the airwaves. And even after the Beach Boys put their own vocals on Darlin on Oct 27, the Wild Honey single was just getting traction in many of these regional markets and had in no way "stalled" until well into November 1967.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: guitarfool2002 on November 03, 2014, 08:11:25 PM
GuitarFool; great post .  The only thing I could add is the following: In November 1967 , right before Thanksgiving, I saw the Beach Boys at Westchester County Civic Center in NY. One of the opening acts was The Pickle Brothers. I remember one of the "jokes" that went something like this...." So we were in Hawaii in August with The Beach Boys and we went to a luau on the beach one night; all the girls were wearing grass skirts. Mike Love tried to smoke them".  Curley Joe was funnier than the Pickle Brothers. 

 :lol  Curley Joe! Now that is a reference! Based on that I'm wondering if one of the Pickle Bros kept a rubber chicken stuffed in his suit pocket for emergencies in case their jokes started to die.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: CenturyDeprived on November 03, 2014, 08:11:42 PM
I wonder what Mike's contributions to Darlin were exactly, as the credit reads (and has always read) Brian Wilson/Mike Love.

I know it was a re-jig of an earlier song by Brian/Mike called Thinking About My Baby (or something) ..... but was it re-written by Brian and Mike, or just Brian? .... Either way, with Mike having been a partial creator of the song in question, we can perhaps understand his apparent irritation a bit more.

Also, we don't know if The Beach Boys had brought the subject up "nicely" before the witnessed incident, so we don't know where at wit's end they might have been when this all went down.... Or maybe there were just being bullies .... Brian, being overly sensitive or not, was still bringing other people into the Beach Boy's only studio and working on a song composed by him and another Beach Boy, presumably intended for The Beach Boys, at a time when The Beach Boys had flames to their feet.... Maybe the others were being harsh assholes, but Brian's actions still count as being less than cool. Actions speak words too, ya know?

The statement that Brian was bringing other people into the Beach Boys' "only studio" is inaccurate. Check the various sessionographies, the majority of Wild Honey tracks and in general most sessions from October and November 1967 were done at Wally Heider's. This would include, too, "Time To Get Alone" by Redwood, and the Beach Boys own Darlin vocals, cut at Heider's October 27.

The Beach Boys had no ownership or financial interest in Wally Heider's then-new studio in LA, as far as anyone knows. And the home studio was still being built up into something permanent up to the Friends sessions in '68. So in no way did the band have only one studio, or rely on one studio to record.

The issue of paying studio fees to me is a red herring in this whole thing, as is the suggestion of Brian working with outside artists somehow being considered a negative.

*All* of the Beach Boys who had interest in Brother Records were in agreement with and supported the business model and plan started by David Anderle and picked up by Nick Grillo, throughout 1967. This includes Mike, who supported what David Anderle was doing from a financial standpoint and in how the business plans could benefit the band financially. One of the major elements of that business model and plan was to open up a business structure which would allow band members to scout, record, produce, develop, and release material from outside artists.

In the summer of 1967 Mike Love himself signed the comedy act "The Pickle Brothers" who had opened concerts for the BB's to the Brother label, and produced a session with them in the fall of 1967 for Brother.

Brian's choice of an outside artist to produce and record was Redwood.

Dennis later brought in Manson to record.

Carl later brought The Flame to the Brother label.

Right there, you have the four band members who had controlling interest in Brother Records each bringing in outside artists to demo, record/produce, and hopefully release in the form of a record in order to generate income for the Brother label and business structure...very much according to one of the key elements in the business plan which established Brother as a business venture for the band.

In that way, someone I think needs to explain to me how Brian bringing in the group Redwood to produce was any different in terms of following the Brother business plan than Mike bringing in the Pickle Brothers in the weeks prior to the Redwood sessions.

 

Perhaps it would have only been deemed "acceptable" and non-threatening to the other Boys if Brian (in addition to producing/writing for Redwood), was also simultaneously bringing his A-game to the BBs in terms of writing/producing for them. Was it sensed that Brian was too engaged with the outsiders, coupled with his interest level with the BBs waning?

I'm wondering if it was assumed (or maybe even spoken about inter-personally in the BBs beforehand) that whenever a BB member would bring in another artist, that the BBs member's priorities would nonetheless always lie with the BBs. This would make sense. Bandmates often don't want a member's side project to be a bigger priority than the main band. I would think Mike would feel this way most of all.

And if it was obvious that this wasn't the case (or that Brian's music with Redwood was "too good" to give away and better than the material he was writing for the BBs), that this may have set in motion a plan to stop Brian in his tracks.

I have to bust a myth here, or at least correct some information that I think the reply may have been based on.

We're talking about bringing Brian's "A Game" to the band, about priorities, about saving the choice cuts for the Beach Boys.

I think we're forgetting about the "Wild Honey" single. That single was released in the USA the last week in October 1967. It had been in the can since late September and was being readied for release as the Redwood sessions were happening.

Some of the comments suggest that the Beach Boys must have had a crystal ball and were able to see into the future to predict how that single was going to chart, if they were worried about Brian bringing something less to their table and taking the choice cuts to Redwood, if this happened a week or so before the new single would even come out.

When it *did* come out, here's the myth-busting, it actually performed very well regionally, usually cracking the top 20 in most AM Top 40 surveys and in some areas it went top 5 going well into November '67. So even going into November '67, if the band was getting reports that the single was still climbing in certain regions like DC, Philly, Detroit, etc, how would it lead them to think Brian had not given them his A Game effort on this current single?

Consider from that era of top-40 radio that those specific markets I mentioned for a reason were more heavy markets for R&B and soul music, and Wild Honey was even according to Carl, Brian's attempt to go for a heavier, white R&B sound. And in DC, for one, it reached #2 locally with the "Good Guys" station, and other cities saw it hit top 10 or even top 5.

So if the Beach Boys as a whole were thinking what has been suggested they were thinking, about Brian keeping the "good stuff" for himself and Redwood while giving the band scraps, how could they possibly have known the chart performance of their newest single when the Redwood stuff happened considering:

A - it had not yet been released

and B - as they were finalizing the album into November 1967 the current single was still climbing the charts in various radio markets around the US. Did they know how far it would go before it was released?

So I just don't put much weight if any at all in the theory that the band did what they did based on the quality of work Brian was bringing to them considering the new single had not even been released, and no one unless they were channeling Nostradamus could predict how it would perform after it hit the airwaves. And even after the Beach Boys put their own vocals on Darlin on Oct 27, the Wild Honey single was just getting traction in many of these regional markets and had in no way "stalled" until well into November 1967.

I appreciate the clarification, guitarfool - your wealth of knowledge on this stuff is remarkable and great to have for discussions like this. In terms of hypothesizing motivations for why Brian, was for lack of better word "encouraged" to ditch the Redwood sessions, if the "A" game theory is wholly inaccurate, I'd still imagine there had to have been some sort of final straw that made the Mike/Carl incident happen, or at least a culmination of various nagging reasons in the air which caused it.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: halblaineisgood on November 03, 2014, 08:23:25 PM
.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Ray Lawlor on November 03, 2014, 08:29:47 PM


In the summer of 1967 Mike Love himself signed the comedy act "The Pickle Brothers" who had opened concerts for the BB's to the Brother label, and produced a session with them in the fall of 1967 for Brother.

My new favorite fact . :lol


In case I wasnt quite clear on my last post.....The Maharishi was a funnier opening act than the f..kng Pickle Brothers


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Cyncie on November 03, 2014, 08:39:38 PM

In the summer of 1967 Mike Love himself signed the comedy act "The Pickle Brothers" who had opened concerts for the BB's to the Brother label, and produced a session with them in the fall of 1967 for Brother.

Brian's choice of an outside artist to produce and record was Redwood.

Dennis later brought in Manson to record.

Carl later brought The Flame to the Brother label.


Well, that's an interesting little snapshot, right there.

Now, I'm absolutely no Beach Boys historian. Got the big picture, but don't really need to track all of the ins and outs of this group to enjoy the music.

 But, as someone way on the outside looking in, I have to wonder if, at some point in this era, Brian just got tired of being treated as a commodity. Not only by the record companies, but by his own family and band. And, I have to wonder if the band sensed this resentment and knew he wasn't fully engaged with them. And, I have to wonder if Brian producing Redwood was, to them, a case of the "goose that laid the golden egg" clucking in someone else's henhouse.

That sounded better in my head. Hopefully you get the drift.



Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again on November 03, 2014, 08:44:50 PM
I wonder what Mike's contributions to Darlin were exactly, as the credit reads (and has always read) Brian Wilson/Mike Love.

I know it was a re-jig of an earlier song by Brian/Mike called Thinking About My Baby (or something) ..... but was it re-written by Brian and Mike, or just Brian? .... Either way, with Mike having been a partial creator of the song in question, we can perhaps understand his apparent irritation a bit more.

Also, we don't know if The Beach Boys had brought the subject up "nicely" before the witnessed incident, so we don't know where at wit's end they might have been when this all went down.... Or maybe there were just being bullies .... Brian, being overly sensitive or not, was still bringing other people into the Beach Boy's only studio and working on a song composed by him and another Beach Boy, presumably intended for The Beach Boys, at a time when The Beach Boys had flames to their feet.... Maybe the others were being harsh assholes, but Brian's actions still count as being less than cool. Actions speak words too, ya know?

The statement that Brian was bringing other people into the Beach Boys' "only studio" is inaccurate. Check the various sessionographies, the majority of Wild Honey tracks and in general most sessions from October and November 1967 were done at Wally Heider's. This would include, too, "Time To Get Alone" by Redwood, and the Beach Boys own Darlin vocals, cut at Heider's October 27.

The Beach Boys had no ownership or financial interest in Wally Heider's then-new studio in LA, as far as anyone knows. And the home studio was still being built up into something permanent up to the Friends sessions in '68. So in no way did the band have only one studio, or rely on one studio to record.

The issue of paying studio fees to me is a red herring in this whole thing, as is the suggestion of Brian working with outside artists somehow being considered a negative.

*All* of the Beach Boys who had interest in Brother Records were in agreement with and supported the business model and plan started by David Anderle and picked up by Nick Grillo, throughout 1967. This includes Mike, who supported what David Anderle was doing from a financial standpoint and in how the business plans could benefit the band financially. One of the major elements of that business model and plan was to open up a business structure which would allow band members to scout, record, produce, develop, and release material from outside artists.

In the summer of 1967 Mike Love himself signed the comedy act "The Pickle Brothers" who had opened concerts for the BB's to the Brother label, and produced a session with them in the fall of 1967 for Brother.

Brian's choice of an outside artist to produce and record was Redwood.

Dennis later brought in Manson to record.

Carl later brought The Flame to the Brother label.

Right there, you have the four band members who had controlling interest in Brother Records each bringing in outside artists to demo, record/produce, and hopefully release in the form of a record in order to generate income for the Brother label and business structure...very much according to one of the key elements in the business plan which established Brother as a business venture for the band.

In that way, someone I think needs to explain to me how Brian bringing in the group Redwood to produce was any different in terms of following the Brother business plan than Mike bringing in the Pickle Brothers in the weeks prior to the Redwood sessions.

And as far as paying studio fees, that too was an investment as part of the Brother business plan, similar to how Brother would have paid the studio costs for The Flame, Manson, The Pickle Brothers, and any number of outside acts which band members other than Brian brought onto the Brother label.

Thank you. That clears up a crucial part of the issue .....

Only in Beach Boys-land would you get "The Pickle Brothers" and Manson popping up in the same topic of discussion!

But what about Mike being co-author of Darlin being a possible factor in his not being thrilled that Brian was recording it with some other group?

Oh, and as for why the Beach Boys might care about Brian bringing another group in to record a pop single written by two Beach Boys vs not giving a shite about Mike bringing in a comedy trio to record comedy bits? ...... Well, ...... I think the answer lies within the question and is perfectly obvious.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Nicko1234 on November 04, 2014, 12:31:46 AM
Yeah, I think it is clear why Darlin was different and the fact that Brian has yet to write a song that has performed as well in his homeland in the 47 years that have followed is another indication of that.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: c-man on November 04, 2014, 03:44:17 AM
I think where the hesitation lies is with Negron's claim that Mike and Carl verbally abused Brian. Clearly, using all the different pieces, it seems safe to assume that Carl and Mike did intervene and stop Brian from working with Danny Hutton any further. However, none of the other sources we've seen - even Ray's own story - have any mention of Mike and Carl berating him off in another booth. It certainly doesn't seem like anything Carl would do or would be a part of.

Maybe it happened - and due to that claim's very nature, maybe it didn't. One side will spring to the "maybe it happened, so let's assume it did", while the other will say "maybe it didn't happen, so let's not assume it did". In the end, memories are extremely faulty (especially old ones) and no matter what, someone is going to be rewriting history with their telling. Probably everyone.

The best post I've read in a long time!  Totally agree! :)


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Cam Mott on November 04, 2014, 03:48:38 AM
I wonder what Mike's contributions to Darlin were exactly, as the credit reads (and has always read) Brian Wilson/Mike Love.

I know it was a re-jig of an earlier song by Brian/Mike called Thinking About My Baby (or something) ..... but was it re-written by Brian and Mike, or just Brian? .... Either way, with Mike having been a partial creator of the song in question, we can perhaps understand his apparent irritation a bit more.

Also, we don't know if The Beach Boys had brought the subject up "nicely" before the witnessed incident, so we don't know where at wit's end they might have been when this all went down.... Or maybe there were just being bullies .... Brian, being overly sensitive or not, was still bringing other people into the Beach Boy's only studio and working on a song composed by him and another Beach Boy, presumably intended for The Beach Boys, at a time when The Beach Boys had flames to their feet.... Maybe the others were being harsh assholes, but Brian's actions still count as being less than cool. Actions speak words too, ya know?

The statement that Brian was bringing other people into the Beach Boys' "only studio" is inaccurate. Check the various sessionographies, the majority of Wild Honey tracks and in general most sessions from October and November 1967 were done at Wally Heider's. This would include, too, "Time To Get Alone" by Redwood, and the Beach Boys own Darlin vocals, cut at Heider's October 27.

The Beach Boys had no ownership or financial interest in Wally Heider's then-new studio in LA, as far as anyone knows. And the home studio was still being built up into something permanent up to the Friends sessions in '68. So in no way did the band have only one studio, or rely on one studio to record.

The issue of paying studio fees to me is a red herring in this whole thing, as is the suggestion of Brian working with outside artists somehow being considered a negative.

*All* of the Beach Boys who had interest in Brother Records were in agreement with and supported the business model and plan started by David Anderle and picked up by Nick Grillo, throughout 1967. This includes Mike, who supported what David Anderle was doing from a financial standpoint and in how the business plans could benefit the band financially. One of the major elements of that business model and plan was to open up a business structure which would allow band members to scout, record, produce, develop, and release material from outside artists.

In the summer of 1967 Mike Love himself signed the comedy act "The Pickle Brothers" who had opened concerts for the BB's to the Brother label, and produced a session with them in the fall of 1967 for Brother.

Brian's choice of an outside artist to produce and record was Redwood.

Dennis later brought in Manson to record.

Carl later brought The Flame to the Brother label.

Right there, you have the four band members who had controlling interest in Brother Records each bringing in outside artists to demo, record/produce, and hopefully release in the form of a record in order to generate income for the Brother label and business structure...very much according to one of the key elements in the business plan which established Brother as a business venture for the band.

In that way, someone I think needs to explain to me how Brian bringing in the group Redwood to produce was any different in terms of following the Brother business plan than Mike bringing in the Pickle Brothers in the weeks prior to the Redwood sessions.

And as far as paying studio fees, that too was an investment as part of the Brother business plan, similar to how Brother would have paid the studio costs for The Flame, Manson, The Pickle Brothers, and any number of outside acts which band members other than Brian brought onto the Brother label.

How many, if any, BBs were giving away group songs to their solo outside productions?


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Cam Mott on November 04, 2014, 03:56:54 AM
I think where the hesitation lies is with Negron's claim that Mike and Carl verbally abused Brian. Clearly, using all the different pieces, it seems safe to assume that Carl and Mike did intervene and stop Brian from working with Danny Hutton any further. However, none of the other sources we've seen - even Ray's own story - have any mention of Mike and Carl berating him off in another booth. It certainly doesn't seem like anything Carl would do or would be a part of.

Maybe it happened - and due to that claim's very nature, maybe it didn't. One side will spring to the "maybe it happened, so let's assume it did", while the other will say "maybe it didn't happen, so let's not assume it did". In the end, memories are extremely faulty (especially old ones) and no matter what, someone is going to be rewriting history with their telling. Probably everyone.

The best post I've read in a long time!  Totally agree! :)

I may be a little foggy on Negron's quote but I  think some take issue with him filling in some blanks of something he himself said he couldn't hear.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Chocolate Shake Man on November 04, 2014, 06:33:59 AM
Why are people responding as if anyone in this thread has blamed Mike Love for the Darlin' incident?


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Dancing Bear on November 04, 2014, 06:56:57 AM
What I learned from this thread: Carl was such an asshole...


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: MyDrKnowsItKeepsMeCalm on November 04, 2014, 06:58:34 AM
I wonder what Mike's contributions to Darlin were exactly, as the credit reads (and has always read) Brian Wilson/Mike Love.

I know it was a re-jig of an earlier song by Brian/Mike called Thinking About My Baby (or something) ..... but was it re-written by Brian and Mike, or just Brian? .... Either way, with Mike having been a partial creator of the song in question, we can perhaps understand his apparent irritation a bit more.
This seems a reasonable point to me too. 



Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: SMiLE Brian on November 04, 2014, 07:05:15 AM
The anti-BW crowd is out today. ::)


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Dancing Bear on November 04, 2014, 07:14:19 AM
What I learned from this thread: Carl was such an asshole...

I figure that I maybe need to explain why I came to that conclusion.

Easy.

Carl Wilson went uninvited to a Redwood session and forbid his brother Brian to do further work with that group, reducing him to tears. Carl had no reason to do that, since Brother was created so that the Beach Boys could produce outside artists for the Label. To make things worse, Brian had already given the band a smah hit in 'Wild Honey' to promote their next album release (same title), while Darlin' was as good or worse than the other album tracks produced by Brian in late 67.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: guitarfool2002 on November 04, 2014, 07:16:49 AM
I wonder what Mike's contributions to Darlin were exactly, as the credit reads (and has always read) Brian Wilson/Mike Love.

I know it was a re-jig of an earlier song by Brian/Mike called Thinking About My Baby (or something) ..... but was it re-written by Brian and Mike, or just Brian? .... Either way, with Mike having been a partial creator of the song in question, we can perhaps understand his apparent irritation a bit more.

Also, we don't know if The Beach Boys had brought the subject up "nicely" before the witnessed incident, so we don't know where at wit's end they might have been when this all went down.... Or maybe there were just being bullies .... Brian, being overly sensitive or not, was still bringing other people into the Beach Boy's only studio and working on a song composed by him and another Beach Boy, presumably intended for The Beach Boys, at a time when The Beach Boys had flames to their feet.... Maybe the others were being harsh assholes, but Brian's actions still count as being less than cool. Actions speak words too, ya know?

The statement that Brian was bringing other people into the Beach Boys' "only studio" is inaccurate. Check the various sessionographies, the majority of Wild Honey tracks and in general most sessions from October and November 1967 were done at Wally Heider's. This would include, too, "Time To Get Alone" by Redwood, and the Beach Boys own Darlin vocals, cut at Heider's October 27.

The Beach Boys had no ownership or financial interest in Wally Heider's then-new studio in LA, as far as anyone knows. And the home studio was still being built up into something permanent up to the Friends sessions in '68. So in no way did the band have only one studio, or rely on one studio to record.

The issue of paying studio fees to me is a red herring in this whole thing, as is the suggestion of Brian working with outside artists somehow being considered a negative.

*All* of the Beach Boys who had interest in Brother Records were in agreement with and supported the business model and plan started by David Anderle and picked up by Nick Grillo, throughout 1967. This includes Mike, who supported what David Anderle was doing from a financial standpoint and in how the business plans could benefit the band financially. One of the major elements of that business model and plan was to open up a business structure which would allow band members to scout, record, produce, develop, and release material from outside artists.

In the summer of 1967 Mike Love himself signed the comedy act "The Pickle Brothers" who had opened concerts for the BB's to the Brother label, and produced a session with them in the fall of 1967 for Brother.

Brian's choice of an outside artist to produce and record was Redwood.

Dennis later brought in Manson to record.

Carl later brought The Flame to the Brother label.

Right there, you have the four band members who had controlling interest in Brother Records each bringing in outside artists to demo, record/produce, and hopefully release in the form of a record in order to generate income for the Brother label and business structure...very much according to one of the key elements in the business plan which established Brother as a business venture for the band.

In that way, someone I think needs to explain to me how Brian bringing in the group Redwood to produce was any different in terms of following the Brother business plan than Mike bringing in the Pickle Brothers in the weeks prior to the Redwood sessions.

And as far as paying studio fees, that too was an investment as part of the Brother business plan, similar to how Brother would have paid the studio costs for The Flame, Manson, The Pickle Brothers, and any number of outside acts which band members other than Brian brought onto the Brother label.

How many, if any, BBs were giving away group songs to their solo outside productions?

Mike and Brian as early as 1963/64, as this '63 photo shows them "giving" a Wilson/Love song to Sharon Marie, one of several they wrote for her to sing and release including "Thinkin Bout You Baby":

(http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n295/guitarfool2002/brianmikesharonmarie_zps0824e424.jpg)

So Brother Records was set up several years after this photo to allow the band members like Brian and Mike to write and produce for other artists, but give them more control in a business sense over the process then they had in 1963.

Even *then*, there were separate branches in the structure for Brian's outside work and also Mike's collabs with Brian, in terms of issues like publishing and the like.

And again consider the Sharon Marie song "Thinkin Bout You Baby" was also a Wilson and Love composition which had been "given away" in 1964.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: ontor pertawst on November 04, 2014, 07:40:17 AM
Obviously, the story is remembered wrong: Mike Love walked out of the studio crying because he was so sensitive to Brian's pain at being being harangued by his brother. Mike Love was always something of a buffer between Brian and Carl's unpredictable rages... he relied on his TM calm to sort of modulate Carl's naked greed and limited vision. Actually, Mike was known in many circles as "The Prince of Peace," a title he earned honorably throughout decades of work with the UN. Not to mention the ability to walk on water, which does not require a year of celibacy and tends to really impress folks into putting down their weapons and opening a dialogue.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: guitarfool2002 on November 04, 2014, 07:40:34 AM
Mike Love interview with Derek Taylor, mid-1967, direct quote:

"'Heroes And Villains' is going to be released as the first single on our new label, Brother Records. Capitol is pressing them and does the distribution. Now they realize that after all it is not a bad deal for them at all, because Bruce, Dennis, and Brian are going to produce records separately for Brother Records and the records will be released by the Capitol industries. Carl does the organizational part and I'm the business guy. Everything is settled perfectly."



Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: alf wiedersehen on November 04, 2014, 08:08:38 AM
The anti-BW crowd is out today. ::)
Yes, the anti-BW crowd: a group of people who doubt a detail in a story that's never been corroborated. It's clearly because we dislike Brian Wilson.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: guitarfool2002 on November 04, 2014, 08:18:14 AM
The anti-BW crowd is out today. ::)
Yes, the anti-BW crowd: a group of people who doubt a detail in a story that's never been corroborated. It's clearly because we dislike Brian Wilson.

This is not nor was it ever a case of accepting or denying the specific Chuck Negron quotes going back to the first time I raised the issue of Redwood in this thread.

Let's get that straight, shall we?

Of everything else I've said so far in this thread, it's beyond absurd to have posts like this continue trying to focus in on debating an issue about Chuck Negron that was never the issue being raised in the first place. I've made that very clear since the first post where I brought up Redwood, in fact I asked several times for clarification which went unanswered as the discussion shifted and spun into all directions.

Just to be clear, right?


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: alf wiedersehen on November 04, 2014, 08:21:20 AM
The anti-BW crowd is out today. ::)
Yes, the anti-BW crowd: a group of people who doubt a detail in a story that's never been corroborated. It's clearly because we dislike Brian Wilson.

This is not nor was it ever a case of accepting or denying the specific Chuck Negron quotes going back to the first time I raised the issue of Redwood in this thread.

Let's get that straight, shall we?

Of everything else I've said so far in this thread, it's beyond absurd to have posts like this continue trying to focus in on debating an issue about Chuck Negron that was never the issue being raised in the first place. I've made that very clear since the first post where I brought up Redwood, in fact I asked several times for clarification which went unanswered as the discussion shifted and spun into all directions.

Just to be clear, right?

Well, maybe not the issue for you.
I am entirely unconcerned with whatever your problem seems to be. If you want to have your battles about the whole Redwood-thing, more power to you. I'm not disagreeing with the fact that they stopped Brian from working with Redwood. My issue is with Chuck's assertion that they reduced Brian to tears.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: guitarfool2002 on November 04, 2014, 08:23:53 AM
The anti-BW crowd is out today. ::)
Yes, the anti-BW crowd: a group of people who doubt a detail in a story that's never been corroborated. It's clearly because we dislike Brian Wilson.

This is not nor was it ever a case of accepting or denying the specific Chuck Negron quotes going back to the first time I raised the issue of Redwood in this thread.

Let's get that straight, shall we?

Of everything else I've said so far in this thread, it's beyond absurd to have posts like this continue trying to focus in on debating an issue about Chuck Negron that was never the issue being raised in the first place. I've made that very clear since the first post where I brought up Redwood, in fact I asked several times for clarification which went unanswered as the discussion shifted and spun into all directions.

Just to be clear, right?

Well, maybe not the issue for you.

I started the fucking conversation! Read the thread. I was not thinking of Chuck Negron when I posted it.

Satisfied, or do you think I'm lying?


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: SMiLE Brian on November 04, 2014, 08:25:34 AM
The anti-BW crowd is out today. ::)
Yes, the anti-BW crowd: a group of people who doubt a detail in a story that's never been corroborated. It's clearly because we dislike Brian Wilson.

This is not nor was it ever a case of accepting or denying the specific Chuck Negron quotes going back to the first time I raised the issue of Redwood in this thread.

Let's get that straight, shall we?

Of everything else I've said so far in this thread, it's beyond absurd to have posts like this continue trying to focus in on debating an issue about Chuck Negron that was never the issue being raised in the first place. I've made that very clear since the first post where I brought up Redwood, in fact I asked several times for clarification which went unanswered as the discussion shifted and spun into all directions.

Just to be clear, right?

Well, maybe not the issue for you.
stop staring at your M&B signed records.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: alf wiedersehen on November 04, 2014, 08:29:47 AM
The anti-BW crowd is out today. ::)
Yes, the anti-BW crowd: a group of people who doubt a detail in a story that's never been corroborated. It's clearly because we dislike Brian Wilson.

This is not nor was it ever a case of accepting or denying the specific Chuck Negron quotes going back to the first time I raised the issue of Redwood in this thread.

Let's get that straight, shall we?

Of everything else I've said so far in this thread, it's beyond absurd to have posts like this continue trying to focus in on debating an issue about Chuck Negron that was never the issue being raised in the first place. I've made that very clear since the first post where I brought up Redwood, in fact I asked several times for clarification which went unanswered as the discussion shifted and spun into all directions.

Just to be clear, right?

Well, maybe not the issue for you.
stop staring at your M&B signed records.

Very nice rebuttal. Go ahead and pat yourself on the back for a job well done.
Brianista, kokomoaist - they're all the same.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: guitarfool2002 on November 04, 2014, 08:32:34 AM
There is that oft-told legend of several beach Boys going to the studio while Brian was cutting a track with Redwood, they pulled him aside, and when he came back he told Redwood he couldn't work on their album anymore because he had to do production work for The Beach Boys.

Oft-told... and generally regarded as apocryphal.

Andrew, I wanted to ask about this and maybe clarify it too: Are you suggesting this did not happen, or are you suggesting the details of what may or may not have been said or perceived have been apocryphal? I'm going on the words of at least two of the three Redwood members who have told basically the same story about what happened in the studio that day. Summing it up, they were there as Brian was producing their music, and after several Beach Boys showed up and talked to Brian, Brian was no longer working on their record. And the reasoning as told by those members was that Brian was going to be producing the Beach Boys current album project instead of Redwood. And that was it, apart from Redwood being offered a Brother single rather than the full album production.

I know that there were questions about what those Redwood members may have thought was said by the Beach Boys as they watched from the studio, but the fact that the scene happened in general is pretty much a known thing and has been reported by several involved parties who were in the studio that day.

I've never seen the fact that the scene happened in the studio challenged or considered apocryphal in some way, so I'm curious where that was coming from.

And it does go back to my bigger point that if Brian would no longer be producing a Redwood album so he could work on producing the Beach Boys' next album (which was Wild Honey), then not having him listed in a production role for that album doesn't add up with what played out. If he went to work producing Wild Honey after Redwood was told he wouldn't be producing them, that would mean he produced Wild Honey.

It's late and I'm working from memory, but as far as I recall the only source for this event is Chuck Negron's autobiog. I also seem to recall TDN fans blowing holes in the chronology, and I definitely don't recall Danny Hutton ever saying word one about it in all the time since... and I think he would ! According to Negron, Mike & Carl turned up in the studio and as TDN watched (but could not hear), basically wore Brian down, reducing him to tears. That sound like anything Carl would do in 1967 ?

If there's another source I've missed I'd be delighted to see it.

Danny Hutton spoke directly about this situation with Redwood in this interview:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5zYjs96sZA&feature=youtu.be&list=PL35350BBCE486D776 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5zYjs96sZA&feature=youtu.be&list=PL35350BBCE486D776)

Skip ahead to around 3 minutes into it, and Danny describes what happened with the Redwood tracks.

Another account from Danny appeared in Peter Carlin's "Catch A Wave", page 130, saying it specifically happened at Wally Heiders studio.

There are two out of three members of the group describing the same event, one more detailed than the other but both describing how Brian was producing them, then he was not after the Beach Boys stepped in.

And that's what I describing in the original post, I think we may have gotten more into the minute details of what Chuck had thought he heard or saw that day, when the bigger picture and more important point was the fact that Brian was producing Redwood, the BB's showed up and wanted him to work on their new album instead of Redwood, and Brian stopped working with Redwood. And the Beach Boys took with them two tracks he had been cutting for Redwood.

Back to page 2, please take note of this before more debate breaks out on an issue that was never an issue from the beginning.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: drbeachboy on November 04, 2014, 08:38:45 AM
The anti-BW crowd is out today. ::)
Yes, the anti-BW crowd: a group of people who doubt a detail in a story that's never been corroborated. It's clearly because we dislike Brian Wilson.

This is not nor was it ever a case of accepting or denying the specific Chuck Negron quotes going back to the first time I raised the issue of Redwood in this thread.

Let's get that straight, shall we?

Of everything else I've said so far in this thread, it's beyond absurd to have posts like this continue trying to focus in on debating an issue about Chuck Negron that was never the issue being raised in the first place. I've made that very clear since the first post where I brought up Redwood, in fact I asked several times for clarification which went unanswered as the discussion shifted and spun into all directions.

Just to be clear, right?

Well, maybe not the issue for you.
stop staring at your M&B signed records.

Very nice rebuttal. Go ahead and pat yourself on the back for a job well done.
Brianista, kokomoaist - they're all the same.
You should have learned by now, you can't post sh*t in here without someone having to make it about taking sides. Like taking a side is really going to make a difference and change history or something.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: CenturyDeprived on November 04, 2014, 08:55:45 AM
The anti-BW crowd is out today. ::)
Yes, the anti-BW crowd: a group of people who doubt a detail in a story that's never been corroborated. It's clearly because we dislike Brian Wilson.

This is not nor was it ever a case of accepting or denying the specific Chuck Negron quotes going back to the first time I raised the issue of Redwood in this thread.

Let's get that straight, shall we?

Of everything else I've said so far in this thread, it's beyond absurd to have posts like this continue trying to focus in on debating an issue about Chuck Negron that was never the issue being raised in the first place. I've made that very clear since the first post where I brought up Redwood, in fact I asked several times for clarification which went unanswered as the discussion shifted and spun into all directions.

Just to be clear, right?

Well, maybe not the issue for you.
I am entirely unconcerned with whatever your problem seems to be. If you want to have your battles about the whole Redwood-thing, more power to you. I'm not disagreeing with the fact that they stopped Brian from working with Redwood. My issue is with Chuck's assertion that they reduced Brian to tears.

I'll reiterate my question to the doubters, since nobody has weighed in with their opinion to what I asked previously. What would the definition of emotional browbeating, or "going too far" be with regards to this? Is there a line you could draw, or actions/words/body language you could say that if it came from Mike, you yourself would say this could constitute something along the lines of emotional abuse? If you saw video/audio of said incident, is there something that could have been said that you would admit was not right?

And please note: I'm absolutely *not* saying conclusively that emotional abuse for sure happened, but I do wonder where people would draw that line. If Brian felt like crying, and looked like he wanted to cry (but actually didn't), does that count? Or do some people feel that every single of Brian's feelings in 1967 (as they relate to how others treated him) should be considered irrelevant (when discussing what his bandmates did/didn't say/do) since he was taking drugs and was simply too emotional? I think that some people on this board feel that way. Or can it be said that someone, even if that person has emotional problems, can still be a victim of unfair bullying by others nonetheless?

Does someone want to weigh in with where they'd draw the line? I'm curious.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: guitarfool2002 on November 04, 2014, 08:59:52 AM
So let's discuss the facts, the timeline, the details, and the history without taking sides, does that sound reasonable? It's what I and others have been trying to do since the topic got underway. The proof of that is in the posts. And I think considering the amount of legitimate factual info that has been posted so far, including some that was rarely if ever posted if posted at all surrounding this, the actual information has far outweighed the squabbling and finger-pointing, despite attempts to spin or redirect this into areas that it was never intended to go. And if the attempts to spin or redirect are made, at least try to base the attempts on something factual, and if you're not sure of the facts, just ask and someone will attempt to clarify ahead of time - plenty of people here have the info, or can find it. Not an outlandish request.

If there are attempts to make this something that it is not, you can clearly see where and when that happened here. For those who are interested in getting the story straight, and listing accurate info for those reading and future visitors to the board who may want to know some of this info but can't find it elsewhere, the information is here on full display. If there is a case of "taking sides" as in various band members and their legacies or actions, that's entirely on those trying to bring that into the conversation, and was not the intent of the discussion. At the same time, sometimes what happened actually did happen, and can be stated without attaching any external or implied meaning to the statement.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: SMiLE Brian on November 04, 2014, 09:02:28 AM
GF, could you put your posts of great info below to get everything back on track?


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: guitarfool2002 on November 04, 2014, 09:15:50 AM
GF, could you put your posts of great info below to get everything back on track?

I'd love to get it back on track!  :)
 
That reposting could be done, but honestly anyone logging on can go back and read them and all the other posts as they are in the thread, and weigh the information as they choose. The one thing I'll say is that when doing that, consider everything I posted here and elsewhere is as factual as I can possibly prove it's factual or that it can be referenced or checked by other sources, otherwise I would not present it as such. And if anything is a mistake or doesn't jive in some way, I'm more than happy to dig deeper and clarify further, to the point of admitting something I posted was a mistake and thanking those who corrected it, should that be the case.

I will say speaking on my own dime here that having some of that info re-used in a mocking way was uncalled for, and if that's the spirit of how some choose to post here, that's a pretty depressing thing to see but something which the board in general is not about and will never be about.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: drbeachboy on November 04, 2014, 09:25:40 AM
Am I missing something here? This argument whether what story is more correct between Chuck and Danny's memories of what went down in the booth is right here in Reply 46:
"GuitarFool;  I can tell you that I heard this straight from the horses mouth ; what went down at Wally Heiders is what Negron has related in his book." 
Ray says Negron's account of what went down is what went down. Why are we still debating this? If Negron is correct, then Mike & Carl did reduce Brian to tears. Wouldn't be the first time family members tore into each other to have that end result.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Dancing Bear on November 04, 2014, 09:29:02 AM
Am I missing something here? This argument whether what story is more correct between Chuck and Danny's memories of what went down in the booth is right here in Reply 46:
"GuitarFool;  I can tell you that I heard this straight from the horses mouth ; what went down at Wally Heiders is what Negron has related in his book." 
Ray says Negron's account of what went down is what went down. Why are we still debating this? If Negron is correct, then Mike & Carl did reduce Brian to tears. Wouldn't be the first time family members tore into each other to have that end result.

Exactly. I'm very disappointed with Carl's behaviour. No wonder Brian wanted nothing to do with his brother in the 80s and 90s.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: drbeachboy on November 04, 2014, 09:35:00 AM
Am I missing something here? This argument whether what story is more correct between Chuck and Danny's memories of what went down in the booth is right here in Reply 46:
"GuitarFool;  I can tell you that I heard this straight from the horses mouth ; what went down at Wally Heiders is what Negron has related in his book." 
Ray says Negron's account of what went down is what went down. Why are we still debating this? If Negron is correct, then Mike & Carl did reduce Brian to tears. Wouldn't be the first time family members tore into each other to have that end result.

Exactly. I'm very disappointed with Carl's behaviour. No wonder Brian wanted nothing to do with his brother in the 80s and 90s.
It was Mike who did all the talking. Because in here, Mike is the only one who has ever had a bad word or thought about his family and bandmates. ;)


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: guitarfool2002 on November 04, 2014, 09:37:01 AM

I'll reiterate my question to the doubters, since nobody has weighed in with their opinion to what I asked previously. What would the definition of emotional browbeating, or "going too far" be with regards to this? Is there a line you could draw, or actions/words/body language you could say that if it came from Mike, you yourself would say this could constitute something along the lines of emotional abuse? If you saw video/audio of said incident, is there something that could have been said that you would admit was not right?

And please note: I'm absolutely *not* saying conclusively that emotional abuse for sure happened, but I do wonder where people would draw that line. If Brian felt like crying, and looked like he wanted to cry (but actually didn't), does that count? Or do some people feel that every single of Brian's feelings in 1967 (as they relate to how others treated him) should be considered irrelevant (when discussing what his bandmates did/didn't say/do) since he was taking drugs and was simply too emotional? I think that some people on this board feel that way. Or can it be said that someone, even if that person has emotional problems, can still be a victim of unfair bullying by others nonetheless?

Does someone want to weigh in with where they'd draw the line? I'm curious.

CenturyDeprived, I want to answer this with as straightforward a reply and suggestion as I'm probably qualified to offer, going on the available information related to this.

I'd suggest looking at the question by focusing on the family dynamic that was in place, specifically relevant to that specific time in and around 1967. I've seen, heard, and read accounts from various "outsiders" who were brought into the outer fringes of this family dynamic as employees or as close associates, and who were able to view it and report on it as both observers who were not blood relatives yet who were in the inner circle just the same.

Please watch this interview clip of Danny Hutton that I posted earlier. He talks directly about the family dynamic he witnessed first as a friend of Brian's then as someone who was involved in the business of Brother Records as an artist who was considered being signed to the label, and who Brian was producing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5zYjs96sZA&feature=youtu.be&list=PL35350BBCE486D776 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5zYjs96sZA&feature=youtu.be&list=PL35350BBCE486D776)

After hearing Danny's take on that family dynamic which he witnessed, consider that others who were similarly involved like Tony Asher, Van Dyke Parks, David Anderle, Michael Vosse, and perhaps a few others from that time have been quoted on the record as having witnessed a similar family dynamic running as an undercurrent through some of what they witnessed or were involved in. I cannot possibly corral all of the exact quotes or sources, but taken as a whole, I get the feeling through their observations that a lot of what they witnessed as possible tensions or even disagreements within the principle members of the group (and the family) were more deeply rooted in issues beyond the issue or the disagreement of the moment. You see how Danny comments on each of the band members' "role" as he observed them, and consider that the other outsiders who witnessed these things have expressed a feeling that they were in the middle of a family issue that had more to do with the family than it did with them or the issues at hand. I got the feeling these things would come up, and the outsider had a feeling of getting sucked into the twister that was already swirling around the family, and I think that undercurrent was something that was in place long before anything one of these outside collaborators or associates was directly involved with. And the tension may have been palpable enough for them to at least feel "what the hell have I walked into?" regarding what they were doing in a professional sense.

That's just my take. I'd suggest looking at it from the standpoint of an existing family dynamic rather than narrowing it down to bullying or other specific issues.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Dancing Bear on November 04, 2014, 09:44:10 AM
Am I missing something here? This argument whether what story is more correct between Chuck and Danny's memories of what went down in the booth is right here in Reply 46:
"GuitarFool;  I can tell you that I heard this straight from the horses mouth ; what went down at Wally Heiders is what Negron has related in his book." 
Ray says Negron's account of what went down is what went down. Why are we still debating this? If Negron is correct, then Mike & Carl did reduce Brian to tears. Wouldn't be the first time family members tore into each other to have that end result.

Exactly. I'm very disappointed with Carl's behaviour. No wonder Brian wanted nothing to do with his brother in the 80s and 90s.
It was Mike who did all the talking. Because in here, Mike is the only one who has ever had a bad word or thought about his family and bandmates. ;)
Well, Michael is a given! I think that with all those evidences and facts that we have it's time to revaluate Car'l actions as a band member and as a brother.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Cam Mott on November 04, 2014, 09:48:16 AM
I wonder what Mike's contributions to Darlin were exactly, as the credit reads (and has always read) Brian Wilson/Mike Love.

I know it was a re-jig of an earlier song by Brian/Mike called Thinking About My Baby (or something) ..... but was it re-written by Brian and Mike, or just Brian? .... Either way, with Mike having been a partial creator of the song in question, we can perhaps understand his apparent irritation a bit more.

Also, we don't know if The Beach Boys had brought the subject up "nicely" before the witnessed incident, so we don't know where at wit's end they might have been when this all went down.... Or maybe there were just being bullies .... Brian, being overly sensitive or not, was still bringing other people into the Beach Boy's only studio and working on a song composed by him and another Beach Boy, presumably intended for The Beach Boys, at a time when The Beach Boys had flames to their feet.... Maybe the others were being harsh assholes, but Brian's actions still count as being less than cool. Actions speak words too, ya know?

The statement that Brian was bringing other people into the Beach Boys' "only studio" is inaccurate. Check the various sessionographies, the majority of Wild Honey tracks and in general most sessions from October and November 1967 were done at Wally Heider's. This would include, too, "Time To Get Alone" by Redwood, and the Beach Boys own Darlin vocals, cut at Heider's October 27.

The Beach Boys had no ownership or financial interest in Wally Heider's then-new studio in LA, as far as anyone knows. And the home studio was still being built up into something permanent up to the Friends sessions in '68. So in no way did the band have only one studio, or rely on one studio to record.

The issue of paying studio fees to me is a red herring in this whole thing, as is the suggestion of Brian working with outside artists somehow being considered a negative.

*All* of the Beach Boys who had interest in Brother Records were in agreement with and supported the business model and plan started by David Anderle and picked up by Nick Grillo, throughout 1967. This includes Mike, who supported what David Anderle was doing from a financial standpoint and in how the business plans could benefit the band financially. One of the major elements of that business model and plan was to open up a business structure which would allow band members to scout, record, produce, develop, and release material from outside artists.

In the summer of 1967 Mike Love himself signed the comedy act "The Pickle Brothers" who had opened concerts for the BB's to the Brother label, and produced a session with them in the fall of 1967 for Brother.

Brian's choice of an outside artist to produce and record was Redwood.

Dennis later brought in Manson to record.

Carl later brought The Flame to the Brother label.

Right there, you have the four band members who had controlling interest in Brother Records each bringing in outside artists to demo, record/produce, and hopefully release in the form of a record in order to generate income for the Brother label and business structure...very much according to one of the key elements in the business plan which established Brother as a business venture for the band.

In that way, someone I think needs to explain to me how Brian bringing in the group Redwood to produce was any different in terms of following the Brother business plan than Mike bringing in the Pickle Brothers in the weeks prior to the Redwood sessions.

And as far as paying studio fees, that too was an investment as part of the Brother business plan, similar to how Brother would have paid the studio costs for The Flame, Manson, The Pickle Brothers, and any number of outside acts which band members other than Brian brought onto the Brother label.

How many, if any, BBs were giving away group songs to their solo outside productions?

Mike and Brian as early as 1963/64, as this '63 photo shows them "giving" a Wilson/Love song to Sharon Marie, one of several they wrote for her to sing and release including "Thinkin Bout You Baby":

(http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n295/guitarfool2002/brianmikesharonmarie_zps0824e424.jpg)

So Brother Records was set up several years after this photo to allow the band members like Brian and Mike to write and produce for other artists, but give them more control in a business sense over the process then they had in 1963.

Even *then*, there were separate branches in the structure for Brian's outside work and also Mike's collabs with Brian, in terms of issues like publishing and the like.

And again consider the Sharon Marie song "Thinkin Bout You Baby" was also a Wilson and Love composition which had been "given away" in 1964.

So maybe the Redwood incident was as simple as a disagreement. Brian was using their song for Redwood but in this case Mike, a co-author, and the other(s) possibly wanted to use it for the Boys.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: drbeachboy on November 04, 2014, 09:52:12 AM
Am I missing something here? This argument whether what story is more correct between Chuck and Danny's memories of what went down in the booth is right here in Reply 46:
"GuitarFool;  I can tell you that I heard this straight from the horses mouth ; what went down at Wally Heiders is what Negron has related in his book."  
Ray says Negron's account of what went down is what went down. Why are we still debating this? If Negron is correct, then Mike & Carl did reduce Brian to tears. Wouldn't be the first time family members tore into each other to have that end result.

Exactly. I'm very disappointed with Carl's behaviour. No wonder Brian wanted nothing to do with his brother in the 80s and 90s.
It was Mike who did all the talking. Because in here, Mike is the only one who has ever had a bad word or thought about his family and bandmates. ;)
Well, Michael is a given! I think that with all those evidences and facts that we have it's time to revaluate Car'l actions as a band member and as a brother.
Hey, like Danny said in the YouTube video, Carl was the referee. I'm sure he went in there so that Mike didn't over alpha-dog it with Brian. These guys weren't just any band or any business, they were family first and foremost and that is how they best interacted with each other.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Cam Mott on November 04, 2014, 10:01:27 AM
Is it just me or is Hutton unaware that Mike was one of the writers of Darlin' in that clip?


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Dancing Bear on November 04, 2014, 10:01:50 AM
Am I missing something here? This argument whether what story is more correct between Chuck and Danny's memories of what went down in the booth is right here in Reply 46:
"GuitarFool;  I can tell you that I heard this straight from the horses mouth ; what went down at Wally Heiders is what Negron has related in his book."  
Ray says Negron's account of what went down is what went down. Why are we still debating this? If Negron is correct, then Mike & Carl did reduce Brian to tears. Wouldn't be the first time family members tore into each other to have that end result.

Exactly. I'm very disappointed with Carl's behaviour. No wonder Brian wanted nothing to do with his brother in the 80s and 90s.
It was Mike who did all the talking. Because in here, Mike is the only one who has ever had a bad word or thought about his family and bandmates. ;)
Well, Michael is a given! I think that with all those evidences and facts that we have it's time to revaluate Car'l actions as a band member and as a brother.
Hey, like Danny said in the YouTube video, Carl was the referee. I'm sure he went in there so that Mike didn't over alpha-dog it with Brian. These guys weren't just any band or any business, they were family first and foremost and that is how they best interacted with each other.
Nah, Danny knew that behind his angelic PR Carl was a badass who could reduce Brian to tears, that's why he went soft in the interview. Fear. Real fear.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: drbeachboy on November 04, 2014, 10:05:55 AM
Am I missing something here? This argument whether what story is more correct between Chuck and Danny's memories of what went down in the booth is right here in Reply 46:
"GuitarFool;  I can tell you that I heard this straight from the horses mouth ; what went down at Wally Heiders is what Negron has related in his book."  
Ray says Negron's account of what went down is what went down. Why are we still debating this? If Negron is correct, then Mike & Carl did reduce Brian to tears. Wouldn't be the first time family members tore into each other to have that end result.

Exactly. I'm very disappointed with Carl's behaviour. No wonder Brian wanted nothing to do with his brother in the 80s and 90s.
It was Mike who did all the talking. Because in here, Mike is the only one who has ever had a bad word or thought about his family and bandmates. ;)
Well, Michael is a given! I think that with all those evidences and facts that we have it's time to revaluate Car'l actions as a band member and as a brother.
Hey, like Danny said in the YouTube video, Carl was the referee. I'm sure he went in there so that Mike didn't over alpha-dog it with Brian. These guys weren't just any band or any business, they were family first and foremost and that is how they best interacted with each other.
Nah, Danny knew that behind his angelic PR Carl was a badass who could reduce Brian to tears, that's why he went soft in the interview. Fear. Real fear.
Ahh, you mean he is just like us? Pin anything and everything on Mike. The man is such an easy target. I'll say this, from everything that I ever read about The Beach Boys, Danny described each personality perfectly.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Chocolate Shake Man on November 04, 2014, 10:28:01 AM
I wonder: is it possible to parody a point of view that hasn't actually been expressed?


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: SMiLE Brian on November 04, 2014, 10:31:26 AM
This thread has been turned into a clusterfuck by people who somehow don't like BW in the BBs.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: CenturyDeprived on November 04, 2014, 10:33:21 AM

I'll reiterate my question to the doubters, since nobody has weighed in with their opinion to what I asked previously. What would the definition of emotional browbeating, or "going too far" be with regards to this? Is there a line you could draw, or actions/words/body language you could say that if it came from Mike, you yourself would say this could constitute something along the lines of emotional abuse? If you saw video/audio of said incident, is there something that could have been said that you would admit was not right?

And please note: I'm absolutely *not* saying conclusively that emotional abuse for sure happened, but I do wonder where people would draw that line. If Brian felt like crying, and looked like he wanted to cry (but actually didn't), does that count? Or do some people feel that every single of Brian's feelings in 1967 (as they relate to how others treated him) should be considered irrelevant (when discussing what his bandmates did/didn't say/do) since he was taking drugs and was simply too emotional? I think that some people on this board feel that way. Or can it be said that someone, even if that person has emotional problems, can still be a victim of unfair bullying by others nonetheless?

Does someone want to weigh in with where they'd draw the line? I'm curious.

CenturyDeprived, I want to answer this with as straightforward a reply and suggestion as I'm probably qualified to offer, going on the available information related to this.

I'd suggest looking at the question by focusing on the family dynamic that was in place, specifically relevant to that specific time in and around 1967. I've seen, heard, and read accounts from various "outsiders" who were brought into the outer fringes of this family dynamic as employees or as close associates, and who were able to view it and report on it as both observers who were not blood relatives yet who were in the inner circle just the same.

Please watch this interview clip of Danny Hutton that I posted earlier. He talks directly about the family dynamic he witnessed first as a friend of Brian's then as someone who was involved in the business of Brother Records as an artist who was considered being signed to the label, and who Brian was producing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5zYjs96sZA&feature=youtu.be&list=PL35350BBCE486D776 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5zYjs96sZA&feature=youtu.be&list=PL35350BBCE486D776)

After hearing Danny's take on that family dynamic which he witnessed, consider that others who were similarly involved like Tony Asher, Van Dyke Parks, David Anderle, Michael Vosse, and perhaps a few others from that time have been quoted on the record as having witnessed a similar family dynamic running as an undercurrent through some of what they witnessed or were involved in. I cannot possibly corral all of the exact quotes or sources, but taken as a whole, I get the feeling through their observations that a lot of what they witnessed as possible tensions or even disagreements within the principle members of the group (and the family) were more deeply rooted in issues beyond the issue or the disagreement of the moment. You see how Danny comments on each of the band members' "role" as he observed them, and consider that the other outsiders who witnessed these things have expressed a feeling that they were in the middle of a family issue that had more to do with the family than it did with them or the issues at hand. I got the feeling these things would come up, and the outsider had a feeling of getting sucked into the twister that was already swirling around the family, and I think that undercurrent was something that was in place long before anything one of these outside collaborators or associates was directly involved with. And the tension may have been palpable enough for them to at least feel "what the hell have I walked into?" regarding what they were doing in a professional sense.

That's just my take. I'd suggest looking at it from the standpoint of an existing family dynamic rather than narrowing it down to bullying or other specific issues.

Thanks for the link, guitarfool. Yes, unquestionably the family dynamic is inextricably linked to how everything played out, and to how such communication styles were witnessed by outsiders.

I guess I just think that regardless of what went down (which none of us will ever really know), I would hope that everyone could agree that verbal/emotional abuse can happen; itís a real thing that exists in the universe, and people sometimes very unfortunately inflict it upon others. Ultimately, abuse is simply not ok and not excusable, no matter how you slice it or spin it. Again, whether or not that happened here is certainly subject to debate, but some peoplesí postings seem to imply that this is simply not something that could possibly have happened here (implying that verbal/emotional abuse is always 100% unquantifiable and that nobody should ever under any circumstances be held accountable for inflicting it on others).  That implication bugs me a lot.

Most everyone agrees that there were actions by Landy and Murry that were inexcusable (obviously, physical abuse, trying to worm oneís way into Brianís will, and unethical drug prescriptions are obvious things that virtually everyone can agree are never, ever ok). But just the same, there should be a set of standards for verbal/emotional abuse also being considered unacceptable. And Mike strikes me as someone who *might* well have done just that. This will always remain a grey area, obviously. Itís really only in the modern era where everyone has a smartphone videocamera where people are more often held to task for their actions. I think if recordings were to surface of this incident and many others throughout the years, parties would obviously be much better held to task for their actions. Some people thrive on grey areas since they allow history to be rewritten.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Dancing Bear on November 04, 2014, 10:36:00 AM
This thread has been turned into a clusterfuck by people who somehow don't like BW in the BBs.

clusterfuck: Military term for an operation in which multiple things have gone wrong. Related to "SNAFU" (Situation Normal, All f***ed Up") and "FUBAR" (f***ed Up Beyond All Repair).

I don't get it.  :(


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: ontor pertawst on November 04, 2014, 10:37:25 AM
You could just scroll down a few lines to where it goes on to say: "Today, however, "clusterfuck" is commonly used to descriptively generalize any situation with a large scale of disarray. "
 


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Dancing Bear on November 04, 2014, 10:40:59 AM
I don't get how this thread has gone in disarray, anyway. But it's just my opinion.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: SMiLE Brian on November 04, 2014, 10:43:05 AM
It has with your trolling posts looking to inflame the thread.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Dancing Bear on November 04, 2014, 10:58:14 AM
It has with your trolling posts looking to inflame the thread.

Since when is judging one Beach Boy's personality based on evidences, accounts and facts considered trolling?


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: SMiLE Brian on November 04, 2014, 10:59:33 AM
Ignoring guitarfool's thread topic about redwood.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: guitarfool2002 on November 04, 2014, 11:05:26 AM

So maybe the Redwood incident was as simple as a disagreement. Brian was using their song for Redwood but in this case Mike, a co-author, and the other(s) possibly wanted to use it for the Boys.

The "Redwood incident" did not involve the song Darlin alone, are you forgetting or leaving out the song "Time To Get Alone"? That was a produced recording which was written by Brian and actually had gone beyond the "guide vocal" stage to the point where those mid-October sessions at Heider's were finalizing the track. At that point in time, Darlin was basically a track with a guide vocal, and Time To Get Alone was having the finishing touches added at Wally Heider's in mid October '67. The scene where the Beach Boys - Carl and Mike - came to the studio during a Redwood session happened at Heider's.

If it were a case of a disagreement over a song which possibly had co-writing issues in play, then why or how did a song which Brian alone wrote and produced and was finishing up for Redwood in line with the agreed structure of Brother Records opening up the opportunity for this to happen wind up getting swept up in the whole thing?

With Time To Get Alone, it was at that point a mostly finished track, again written and produced by Brian and slated for Redwood in line with how Brother was to be run, if you believe Mike's own description of it which I posted earlier.

So again, short of specific proof of who wrote what for Darlin or trying to pin down the original purpose or intended use of that song, how would you (or anyone) say Time To Get Alone became a part of this so-called "disagreement" if the song was Brian's and Brian's alone?

We're putting all the focus on Darlin and leaving Time To Get Alone out of the equation, when TTGA is a major part of what happened.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Dancing Bear on November 04, 2014, 11:10:54 AM
Ignoring guitarfool's thread topic about redwood.

I read every post written by guitarfool in this thread. I had never payed much attention to the role Carl had played in this incident, the thread made me think about that. Can't we change opinions? That's what's debating is good for.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again on November 04, 2014, 11:13:40 AM

So maybe the Redwood incident was as simple as a disagreement. Brian was using their song for Redwood but in this case Mike, a co-author, and the other(s) possibly wanted to use it for the Boys.

The "Redwood incident" did not involve the song Darlin alone, are you forgetting or leaving out the song "Time To Get Alone"? That was a produced recording which was written by Brian and actually had gone beyond the "guide vocal" stage to the point where those mid-October sessions at Heider's were finalizing the track. At that point in time, Darlin was basically a track with a guide vocal, and Time To Get Alone was having the finishing touches added at Wally Heider's in mid October '67. The scene where the Beach Boys - Carl and Mike - came to the studio during a Redwood session happened at Heider's.

If it were a case of a disagreement over a song which possibly had co-writing issues in play, then why or how did a song which Brian alone wrote and produced and was finishing up for Redwood in line with the agreed structure of Brother Records opening up the opportunity for this to happen wind up getting swept up in the whole thing?

With Time To Get Alone, it was at that point a mostly finished track, again written and produced by Brian and slated for Redwood in line with how Brother was to be run, if you believe Mike's own description of it which I posted earlier.

So again, short of specific proof of who wrote what for Darlin or trying to pin down the original purpose or intended use of that song, how would you (or anyone) say Time To Get Alone became a part of this so-called "disagreement" if the song was Brian's and Brian's alone?

We're putting all the focus on Darlin and leaving Time To Get Alone out of the equation, when TTGA is a major part of what happened.

Because with Darlin we have a co-author motivation for Mike which probably meant Time To Get Alone got lumped in with that issue as another song The Beach Boys should have (in their opinion) been recording instead of Redwood.

Any earlier song Brian and Mike gave to another artist, we can assume they agreed upon doing so. If they hadn't agreed on doing the same with Darlin, well here might lie the root of the situation... And do we really think a "brow beating" was necessary at that time to reduce Brian to tears? ... I'm not trying to defend anyone or blame/slam Brian, I'm just trying to open this up to where we can be empathetic to EVERYONE involved... A band is a business and this band was also a family... Such things happen in both.

And are we really supposed to sit here and "reevaluate" Carl's character because he got his way once over Brian's objections?

I've seen arguments over the set list for a show drive people into screaming, sobbing fits..... Bands are rarely a pretty thing on the inside.



Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: drbeachboy on November 04, 2014, 11:17:22 AM

So maybe the Redwood incident was as simple as a disagreement. Brian was using their song for Redwood but in this case Mike, a co-author, and the other(s) possibly wanted to use it for the Boys.

The "Redwood incident" did not involve the song Darlin alone, are you forgetting or leaving out the song "Time To Get Alone"? That was a produced recording which was written by Brian and actually had gone beyond the "guide vocal" stage to the point where those mid-October sessions at Heider's were finalizing the track. At that point in time, Darlin was basically a track with a guide vocal, and Time To Get Alone was having the finishing touches added at Wally Heider's in mid October '67. The scene where the Beach Boys - Carl and Mike - came to the studio during a Redwood session happened at Heider's.

If it were a case of a disagreement over a song which possibly had co-writing issues in play, then why or how did a song which Brian alone wrote and produced and was finishing up for Redwood in line with the agreed structure of Brother Records opening up the opportunity for this to happen wind up getting swept up in the whole thing?

With Time To Get Alone, it was at that point a mostly finished track, again written and produced by Brian and slated for Redwood in line with how Brother was to be run, if you believe Mike's own description of it which I posted earlier.

So again, short of specific proof of who wrote what for Darlin or trying to pin down the original purpose or intended use of that song, how would you (or anyone) say Time To Get Alone became a part of this so-called "disagreement" if the song was Brian's and Brian's alone?

We're putting all the focus on Darlin and leaving Time To Get Alone out of the equation, when TTGA is a major part of what happened.
With Time To Get Alone, could it be that there were no issues and that after Redwood stopped working with Brian that they didn't take it with them when they got there new deal as Three Dog Night?


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Wirestone on November 04, 2014, 11:29:05 AM
Good. So we resolved it all. Brian deserved to be abused, Mike was right in driving him to tears, and everything worked out for the best.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: guitarfool2002 on November 04, 2014, 11:30:07 AM

So maybe the Redwood incident was as simple as a disagreement. Brian was using their song for Redwood but in this case Mike, a co-author, and the other(s) possibly wanted to use it for the Boys.

The "Redwood incident" did not involve the song Darlin alone, are you forgetting or leaving out the song "Time To Get Alone"? That was a produced recording which was written by Brian and actually had gone beyond the "guide vocal" stage to the point where those mid-October sessions at Heider's were finalizing the track. At that point in time, Darlin was basically a track with a guide vocal, and Time To Get Alone was having the finishing touches added at Wally Heider's in mid October '67. The scene where the Beach Boys - Carl and Mike - came to the studio during a Redwood session happened at Heider's.

If it were a case of a disagreement over a song which possibly had co-writing issues in play, then why or how did a song which Brian alone wrote and produced and was finishing up for Redwood in line with the agreed structure of Brother Records opening up the opportunity for this to happen wind up getting swept up in the whole thing?

With Time To Get Alone, it was at that point a mostly finished track, again written and produced by Brian and slated for Redwood in line with how Brother was to be run, if you believe Mike's own description of it which I posted earlier.

So again, short of specific proof of who wrote what for Darlin or trying to pin down the original purpose or intended use of that song, how would you (or anyone) say Time To Get Alone became a part of this so-called "disagreement" if the song was Brian's and Brian's alone?

We're putting all the focus on Darlin and leaving Time To Get Alone out of the equation, when TTGA is a major part of what happened.
With Time To Get Alone, could it be that there were no issues and that after Redwood stopped working with Brian that they didn't take it with them when they got there new deal as Three Dog Night?

Time To Get Alone was a major part of the issue in general: Carl and Mike took the tapes, and took what was slated to be a Redwood song and production with them. They had nothing with that recording at that point to take with them even if they wanted to.

And again, this was a song which was mostly finished, and which had nothing to do with even the possibility that a co-authorship or intended use for the band was causing some kind of disagreement that led to this. TTGA was Brian's song and Brian's production for an artist he wanted to bring onto the Brother label, and basically the Beach Boys called an end to the whole process and took the tapes with them, as of Fall 1967. Redwood was left with nothing to carry with them in terms of a release or anything to take to another interested party, it basically ended at Heider's studio that day when Carl and Mike came in.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: drbeachboy on November 04, 2014, 11:36:56 AM
Good. So we resolved it all. Brian deserved to be abused, Mike was right in driving him to tears, and everything worked out for the best.
You are too much! I want tell you something, I have a brother and a sister, who I made cry and they made me cry. 50 plus years later, I hold no grudge, nor do they. This stuff happens in families. In a close nit dynamic stuff like that happens. These guys just happen to work with each other closely, as well. Fights and arguments are going to ensue and most likely people are going to get there feelings hurt. It happens! They move on, life goes on. Hell, Mike & Brian even worked together again 2012. Who knew? ;)


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again on November 04, 2014, 11:37:54 AM
Good. So we resolved it all. Brian deserved to be abused, Mike was right in driving him to tears, and everything worked out for the best.

No one is saying sandy thing like that

And sure Time To Get Alone was a huge part of the issue, but what I'm saying is, Darlin might have been what got the ball rolling.

I, for one, am glad it happened. We have two stone cold Beach Boys classics that came from the incident and Redwood did just fine as Three Dog Night.




Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: drbeachboy on November 04, 2014, 11:44:25 AM

So maybe the Redwood incident was as simple as a disagreement. Brian was using their song for Redwood but in this case Mike, a co-author, and the other(s) possibly wanted to use it for the Boys.

The "Redwood incident" did not involve the song Darlin alone, are you forgetting or leaving out the song "Time To Get Alone"? That was a produced recording which was written by Brian and actually had gone beyond the "guide vocal" stage to the point where those mid-October sessions at Heider's were finalizing the track. At that point in time, Darlin was basically a track with a guide vocal, and Time To Get Alone was having the finishing touches added at Wally Heider's in mid October '67. The scene where the Beach Boys - Carl and Mike - came to the studio during a Redwood session happened at Heider's.

If it were a case of a disagreement over a song which possibly had co-writing issues in play, then why or how did a song which Brian alone wrote and produced and was finishing up for Redwood in line with the agreed structure of Brother Records opening up the opportunity for this to happen wind up getting swept up in the whole thing?

With Time To Get Alone, it was at that point a mostly finished track, again written and produced by Brian and slated for Redwood in line with how Brother was to be run, if you believe Mike's own description of it which I posted earlier.

So again, short of specific proof of who wrote what for Darlin or trying to pin down the original purpose or intended use of that song, how would you (or anyone) say Time To Get Alone became a part of this so-called "disagreement" if the song was Brian's and Brian's alone?

We're putting all the focus on Darlin and leaving Time To Get Alone out of the equation, when TTGA is a major part of what happened.
With Time To Get Alone, could it be that there were no issues and that after Redwood stopped working with Brian that they didn't take it with them when they got there new deal as Three Dog Night?

Time To Get Alone was a major part of the issue in general: Carl and Mike took the tapes, and took what was slated to be a Redwood song and production with them. They had nothing with that recording at that point to take with them even if they wanted to.

And again, this was a song which was mostly finished, and which had nothing to do with even the possibility that a co-authorship or intended use for the band was causing some kind of disagreement that led to this. TTGA was Brian's song and Brian's production for an artist he wanted to bring onto the Brother label, and basically the Beach Boys called an end to the whole process and took the tapes with them, as of Fall 1967. Redwood was left with nothing to carry with them in terms of a release or anything to take to another interested party, it basically ended at Heider's studio that day when Carl and Mike came in.
I always thought that that whole scene was mostly over Darlin' and TTGA was just along for the ride. Darlin' was the tune that was recorded and released right away, while TTGA was more than a year away from getting released.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Dancing Bear on November 04, 2014, 11:52:05 AM
Good. So we resolved it all. Brian deserved to be abused, Mike was right in driving him to tears, and everything worked out for the best.

Correction: Mike and Carl drove him to tears.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: drbeachboy on November 04, 2014, 12:00:25 PM
Good. So we resolved it all. Brian deserved to be abused, Mike was right in driving him to tears, and everything worked out for the best.

Correction: Mike and Carl drove him to tears.
Yep, Carl too. Referees make bad calls sometimes. ;)


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Cam Mott on November 04, 2014, 12:03:02 PM

So maybe the Redwood incident was as simple as a disagreement. Brian was using their song for Redwood but in this case Mike, a co-author, and the other(s) possibly wanted to use it for the Boys.

The "Redwood incident" did not involve the song Darlin alone, are you forgetting or leaving out the song "Time To Get Alone"? That was a produced recording which was written by Brian and actually had gone beyond the "guide vocal" stage to the point where those mid-October sessions at Heider's were finalizing the track. At that point in time, Darlin was basically a track with a guide vocal, and Time To Get Alone was having the finishing touches added at Wally Heider's in mid October '67. The scene where the Beach Boys - Carl and Mike - came to the studio during a Redwood session happened at Heider's.

If it were a case of a disagreement over a song which possibly had co-writing issues in play, then why or how did a song which Brian alone wrote and produced and was finishing up for Redwood in line with the agreed structure of Brother Records opening up the opportunity for this to happen wind up getting swept up in the whole thing?

With Time To Get Alone, it was at that point a mostly finished track, again written and produced by Brian and slated for Redwood in line with how Brother was to be run, if you believe Mike's own description of it which I posted earlier.

So again, short of specific proof of who wrote what for Darlin or trying to pin down the original purpose or intended use of that song, how would you (or anyone) say Time To Get Alone became a part of this so-called "disagreement" if the song was Brian's and Brian's alone?

We're putting all the focus on Darlin and leaving Time To Get Alone out of the equation, when TTGA is a major part of what happened.

But Darlin' is the one Hutton singles out in regard to the "problem" in your link and it is the one that showed up on the next album. TTGA doesn't show up for two albums over a year later, what says it was part of the incident?


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again on November 04, 2014, 12:03:31 PM
Can I ask everyone a question in relation to the "driving Brian to tears" thing?

Generally, in life, are we always directly responsible for how any given person reacts to what we might say to them? If we say mean things to them, insult them, make fun of them: sure, we likely intended to hurt them, therefore them being driven to tears is something we are directly responsible for.... Now, in the Darlin/TTGA situation, we DO NOT know what was said to Brian or what Brian said to Mike or Carl. We can assume something along the lines of "hey, we (The Beach Boys) should be doing these songs, blah blah, which is not an example of someone being mean, horrible, or out to hurt anyone.

Just something to consider before Carl becomes the next big slobbering and evil Beach Boys villain!

Blaming Mike for everything is already a religion basically, so we'll forget about him for the moment.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: guitarfool2002 on November 04, 2014, 12:05:01 PM

So maybe the Redwood incident was as simple as a disagreement. Brian was using their song for Redwood but in this case Mike, a co-author, and the other(s) possibly wanted to use it for the Boys.

The "Redwood incident" did not involve the song Darlin alone, are you forgetting or leaving out the song "Time To Get Alone"? That was a produced recording which was written by Brian and actually had gone beyond the "guide vocal" stage to the point where those mid-October sessions at Heider's were finalizing the track. At that point in time, Darlin was basically a track with a guide vocal, and Time To Get Alone was having the finishing touches added at Wally Heider's in mid October '67. The scene where the Beach Boys - Carl and Mike - came to the studio during a Redwood session happened at Heider's.

If it were a case of a disagreement over a song which possibly had co-writing issues in play, then why or how did a song which Brian alone wrote and produced and was finishing up for Redwood in line with the agreed structure of Brother Records opening up the opportunity for this to happen wind up getting swept up in the whole thing?

With Time To Get Alone, it was at that point a mostly finished track, again written and produced by Brian and slated for Redwood in line with how Brother was to be run, if you believe Mike's own description of it which I posted earlier.

So again, short of specific proof of who wrote what for Darlin or trying to pin down the original purpose or intended use of that song, how would you (or anyone) say Time To Get Alone became a part of this so-called "disagreement" if the song was Brian's and Brian's alone?

We're putting all the focus on Darlin and leaving Time To Get Alone out of the equation, when TTGA is a major part of what happened.
With Time To Get Alone, could it be that there were no issues and that after Redwood stopped working with Brian that they didn't take it with them when they got there new deal as Three Dog Night?

Time To Get Alone was a major part of the issue in general: Carl and Mike took the tapes, and took what was slated to be a Redwood song and production with them. They had nothing with that recording at that point to take with them even if they wanted to.

And again, this was a song which was mostly finished, and which had nothing to do with even the possibility that a co-authorship or intended use for the band was causing some kind of disagreement that led to this. TTGA was Brian's song and Brian's production for an artist he wanted to bring onto the Brother label, and basically the Beach Boys called an end to the whole process and took the tapes with them, as of Fall 1967. Redwood was left with nothing to carry with them in terms of a release or anything to take to another interested party, it basically ended at Heider's studio that day when Carl and Mike came in.
I always thought that that whole scene was mostly over Darlin' and TTGA was just along for the ride. Darlin' was the tune that was recorded and released right away, while TTGA was more than a year away from getting released.

But consider the importance of TTGA to Brian in all of this. There was a lot of work put into that recording, and more. Consider too that the Beach Boys took the master tapes for TTGA which unlike Darlin was all but finished for Redwood and with Redwood's vocals in the process of being finalized (we can hear that mix in 2014) and which the Beach Boys had no involvement in. If that is the suggestion with Darlin, that in some way the Beach Boys felt they could stake a claim in Darlin as something they could take and use via songwriting credits or other issues, TTGA had no ties at all in that way to the group, yet the song and the master tapes got taken along with Darlin by the group.

TTGA was slated to be a Redwood song, again with no BB's involvement up to that point in terms of creating it, and Brian was following the Brother template by producing it for an outside artist. Somehow that leads to the master tapes of TTGA being taken? Again, that still needs to be explained to me.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: guitarfool2002 on November 04, 2014, 12:11:52 PM

But Darlin' is the one Hutton singles out in regard to the "problem" in your link and it is the one that showed up on the next album. TTGA doesn't show up for two albums over a year later, what says it was part of the incident?

They took the master tapes. It was key to the incident. The sessions that led to Carl and Mike calling an end to it were for TTGA. The last sessions at Heider's or in general that were done with Redwood were for TTGA. How is it not a part of what happened?

Again, why have you not mentioned TTGA while focusing squarely on Darlin' and the potential reasoning that songwriting or lyric credits were one of the core reasons why all this happened? If TTGA were not a major part of this, why did the master tapes go with Carl and Mike and why were the Redwood sessions for TTGA when it was in its final stages the ones that got called to a halt by the Beach Boys?


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again on November 04, 2014, 12:15:05 PM

So maybe the Redwood incident was as simple as a disagreement. Brian was using their song for Redwood but in this case Mike, a co-author, and the other(s) possibly wanted to use it for the Boys.

The "Redwood incident" did not involve the song Darlin alone, are you forgetting or leaving out the song "Time To Get Alone"? That was a produced recording which was written by Brian and actually had gone beyond the "guide vocal" stage to the point where those mid-October sessions at Heider's were finalizing the track. At that point in time, Darlin was basically a track with a guide vocal, and Time To Get Alone was having the finishing touches added at Wally Heider's in mid October '67. The scene where the Beach Boys - Carl and Mike - came to the studio during a Redwood session happened at Heider's.

If it were a case of a disagreement over a song which possibly had co-writing issues in play, then why or how did a song which Brian alone wrote and produced and was finishing up for Redwood in line with the agreed structure of Brother Records opening up the opportunity for this to happen wind up getting swept up in the whole thing?

With Time To Get Alone, it was at that point a mostly finished track, again written and produced by Brian and slated for Redwood in line with how Brother was to be run, if you believe Mike's own description of it which I posted earlier.

So again, short of specific proof of who wrote what for Darlin or trying to pin down the original purpose or intended use of that song, how would you (or anyone) say Time To Get Alone became a part of this so-called "disagreement" if the song was Brian's and Brian's alone?

We're putting all the focus on Darlin and leaving Time To Get Alone out of the equation, when TTGA is a major part of what happened.
With Time To Get Alone, could it be that there were no issues and that after Redwood stopped working with Brian that they didn't take it with them when they got there new deal as Three Dog Night?

Time To Get Alone was a major part of the issue in general: Carl and Mike took the tapes, and took what was slated to be a Redwood song and production with them. They had nothing with that recording at that point to take with them even if they wanted to.

And again, this was a song which was mostly finished, and which had nothing to do with even the possibility that a co-authorship or intended use for the band was causing some kind of disagreement that led to this. TTGA was Brian's song and Brian's production for an artist he wanted to bring onto the Brother label, and basically the Beach Boys called an end to the whole process and took the tapes with them, as of Fall 1967. Redwood was left with nothing to carry with them in terms of a release or anything to take to another interested party, it basically ended at Heider's studio that day when Carl and Mike came in.
I always thought that that whole scene was mostly over Darlin' and TTGA was just along for the ride. Darlin' was the tune that was recorded and released right away, while TTGA was more than a year away from getting released.

But consider the importance of TTGA to Brian in all of this. There was a lot of work put into that recording, and more. Consider too that the Beach Boys took the master tapes for TTGA which unlike Darlin was all but finished for Redwood and with Redwood's vocals in the process of being finalized (we can hear that mix in 2014) and which the Beach Boys had no involvement in. If that is the suggestion with Darlin, that in some way the Beach Boys felt they could stake a claim in Darlin as something they could take and use via songwriting credits or other issues, TTGA had no ties at all in that way to the group, yet the song and the master tapes got taken along with Darlin by the group.

TTGA was slated to be a Redwood song, again with no BB's involvement up to that point in terms of creating it, and Brian was following the Brother template by producing it for an outside artist. Somehow that leads to the master tapes of TTGA being taken? Again, that still needs to be explained to me.

Well, if the tapes were no longer going to be used by Redwood, what else was going to happen to them?

So you're focusing on one song which was finished and released later while ignoring the other song related to the incident which has logical motivation behind it, for Mike, a least? .... Um OK.

Isn't Desper on record talking about The Beach Boys re-recording the backing tracks for TTGA?


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: lee on November 04, 2014, 12:19:49 PM
Based on the youtube clip, he only mentions Mike as rubbing people the wrong way and Mike having vocalizing a problem with those songs going to Redwood. He mentions Carl as being the referee so I would assume Carl went along to be a mediator and make sure things didn't get too out of hand. We don't really know if it did or didn't since we don't really know how much (or little) it would have taken on that day to bring Brian to tears.

If Mike was listed as co writer for Darlin' and Redwood recorded it while signed to Brothers Records, Mike still would have seen financial gain from them getting the song. I can understand wanting a hit song for yourself but it's not like Brian was throwing it in the wind with no financial gain from it. But like guitarfool mentioned, it doesn't explain why they left with the TTGA tapes considering they had no hand in writing the tune. I could be wrong but for a short period of time, wasn't there the idea of TTGA going to be released as a single? I thought I'd read somewhere the before or after a show Carl mentioned to someone that TTGA would be the next single. It never happened but if they thought that it had the potential to be a single, it might explain why they wanted that song as well.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again on November 04, 2014, 12:26:32 PM
Based on the youtube clip, he only mentions Mike as rubbing people the wrong way and Mike having vocalizing a problem with those songs going to Redwood. He mentions Carl as being the referee so I would assume Carl went along to be a mediator and make sure things didn't get too out of hand. We don't really know if it did or didn't since we don't really know how much (or little) it would have taken on that day to bring Brian to tears.

If Mike was listed as co writer for Darlin' and Redwood recorded it while signed to Brothers Records, Mike still would have seen financial gain from them getting the song. I can understand wanting a hit song for yourself but it's not like Brian was throwing it in the wind with no financial gain from it. But like guitarfool mentioned, it doesn't explain why they left with the TTGA tapes considering they had no hand in writing the tune. I could be wrong but for a short period of time, wasn't there the idea of TTGA going to be released as a single? I thought I'd read somewhere the before or after a show Carl mentioned to someone that TTGA would be the next single. It never happened but if they thought that it had the potential to be a single, it might explain why they wanted that song as well.

As co-writer of the tune is it insane to imagine Mike just wanted to get to sing on it himself and have his band do it?


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Woodstock on November 04, 2014, 12:33:48 PM
Both bands could have released the song



Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: alf wiedersehen on November 04, 2014, 12:34:31 PM
Both bands could have released the song



One single would suffer due to the other.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: guitarfool2002 on November 04, 2014, 12:39:15 PM

Well, if the tapes were no longer going to be used by Redwood, what else was going to happen to them?

So you're focusing on one song which was finished and released later while ignoring the other song related to the incident which has logical motivation behind it, for Mike, a least? .... Um OK.

Isn't Desper on record talking about The Beach Boys re-recording the backing tracks for TTGA?


I wasn't even going to reply to something like this, but do you think those of us reading this thread are idiots or something? The TTGA tapes were currently in use by Redwood in October 67, were being worked on by Brian and Redwood at Heider's, and were slated to be a Redwood project of some kind when Carl and Mike took the masters and ended the work being done by Brian for Redwood. Is that not clear enough?

And how am I ignoring the other song Darlin when I wrote at least two paragraphs or more about it and its construction back on page 2? For f***'s sake.

If it's at a point where common sense is being challenged like this in order to make a point or to further deviate from what the original issues are and were, we're seriously f***ed. And I mean that.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Ray Lawlor on November 04, 2014, 12:44:55 PM

But Darlin' is the one Hutton singles out in regard to the "problem" in your link and it is the one that showed up on the next album. TTGA doesn't show up for two albums over a year later, what says it was part of the incident?

They took the master tapes. It was key to the incident. The sessions that led to Carl and Mike calling an end to it were for TTGA. The last sessions at Heider's or in general that were done with Redwood were for TTGA. How is it not a part of what happened?

Again, why have you not mentioned TTGA while focusing squarely on Darlin' and the potential reasoning that songwriting or lyric credits were one of the core reasons why all this happened? If TTGA were not a major part of this, why did the master tapes go with Carl and Mike and why were the Redwood sessions for TTGA when it was in its final stages the ones that got called to a halt by the Beach Boys?

GuitarFool;  I don't think "Darlin'" was the big issue for Brian ; he absolutely loves that tune and there are really no bad memories associated with "Darlin'" that I have ever heard him mention. I have never heard him say a word about Redwood/Three Dog Night in association with "Darlin'". My recollection is that the title was based on Danny calling everyone Darlin' ; I don't know if the lyrics were rewritten by Brian after Mike wrote the lyrics to Thinkin'Bout You Baby", or if Mike did the rewrite as well. For all any of us know , Brian had "Darlin'" planned for The Beach Boys all along , and was just experimenting with Redwood to see how it would sound. Pure speculation there.

"Time To Get Alone" is another story altogether.  There was/is a negativity for Brian about TTGA that was close to "Heroes and Villains" proportion.  It was a major struggle to get him to perform TTGA live; it all centered around the events at Wally Heider's and Danny. That was a repeated theme over the years anytime you would bring up TTGA to Brian; Wally Heider's, Mike and Carl, Danny being really pissed at him... The most detail I ever heard about it is what I passed on the other day.  One thing is for certain. Something bad happened to Brian in that booth at Heider's to have him still addressing it with Danny forty one fucking years later.  


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: drbeachboy on November 04, 2014, 12:47:47 PM

Well, if the tapes were no longer going to be used by Redwood, what else was going to happen to them?

So you're focusing on one song which was finished and released later while ignoring the other song related to the incident which has logical motivation behind it, for Mike, a least? .... Um OK.

Isn't Desper on record talking about The Beach Boys re-recording the backing tracks for TTGA?


I wasn't even going to reply to something like this, but do you think those of us reading this thread are idiots or something? The TTGA tapes were currently in use by Redwood in October 67, were being worked on by Brian and Redwood at Heider's, and were slated to be a Redwood project of some kind when Carl and Mike took the masters and ended the work being done by Brian for Redwood. Is that not clear enough?

And how am I ignoring the other song Darlin when I wrote at least two paragraphs or more about it and its construction back on page 2? For f***'s sake.

If it's at a point where common sense is being challenged like this in order to make a point or to further deviate from what the original issues are and were, we're seriously f***ed. And I mean that.
Look, it is two songs. So they pulled the plug on it. sh*t happened. TDN got a better deal in the end. Brian got scarred, cried, got over it, continued making records for the Beach Boys. Still got along famously with Carl (right up to Super Bowl Sunday before he passed), performed, loved and continued to be at odds with Mike Love for the next 45 years. We will never know exactly what went down, but Brian's talk with Danny that Ray relayed to us, is the real healing part of this story. If they're OK, I'm OK.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again on November 04, 2014, 12:48:20 PM

Well, if the tapes were no longer going to be used by Redwood, what else was going to happen to them?

So you're focusing on one song which was finished and released later while ignoring the other song related to the incident which has logical motivation behind it, for Mike, a least? .... Um OK.

Isn't Desper on record talking about The Beach Boys re-recording the backing tracks for TTGA?


I wasn't even going to reply to something like this, but do you think those of us reading this thread are idiots or something? The TTGA tapes were currently in use by Redwood in October 67, were being worked on by Brian and Redwood at Heider's, and were slated to be a Redwood project of some kind when Carl and Mike took the masters and ended the work being done by Brian for Redwood. Is that not clear enough?

And how am I ignoring the other song Darlin when I wrote at least two paragraphs or more about it and its construction back on page 2? For f***'s sake.

If it's at a point where common sense is being challenged like this in order to make a point or to further deviate from what the original issues are and were, we're seriously f***ed. And I mean that.

Man, do you really have to fly off the handle so easily?

And just because you say something or make a statement, it does not make it the final word for everyone else.

Time To Get Over Yourself should be a tune.






Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Cam Mott on November 04, 2014, 01:22:37 PM

But Darlin' is the one Hutton singles out in regard to the "problem" in your link and it is the one that showed up on the next album. TTGA doesn't show up for two albums over a year later, what says it was part of the incident?

They took the master tapes. It was key to the incident. The sessions that led to Carl and Mike calling an end to it were for TTGA. The last sessions at Heider's or in general that were done with Redwood were for TTGA. How is it not a part of what happened?

Again, why have you not mentioned TTGA while focusing squarely on Darlin' and the potential reasoning that songwriting or lyric credits were one of the core reasons why all this happened? If TTGA were not a major part of this, why did the master tapes go with Carl and Mike and why were the Redwood sessions for TTGA when it was in its final stages the ones that got called to a halt by the Beach Boys?

I don't know that it was key to the incident, it may have just been collateral damage as far as I know. I am focusing on it because Hutton focuses on Darlin' in your link as the problem for Mike, Mike is a co-author of that song, Redwood was working on it, Hutton says he can see how they wanted it, it ended up on the next BB album, Hutton singles it out. Is there something else from Hutton that does specify TTGA as the, or a, problem for Mike et al?


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again on November 04, 2014, 01:45:02 PM

But Darlin' is the one Hutton singles out in regard to the "problem" in your link and it is the one that showed up on the next album. TTGA doesn't show up for two albums over a year later, what says it was part of the incident?

They took the master tapes. It was key to the incident. The sessions that led to Carl and Mike calling an end to it were for TTGA. The last sessions at Heider's or in general that were done with Redwood were for TTGA. How is it not a part of what happened?

Again, why have you not mentioned TTGA while focusing squarely on Darlin' and the potential reasoning that songwriting or lyric credits were one of the core reasons why all this happened? If TTGA were not a major part of this, why did the master tapes go with Carl and Mike and why were the Redwood sessions for TTGA when it was in its final stages the ones that got called to a halt by the Beach Boys?

I don't know that it was key to the incident, it may have just been collateral damage as far as I know. I am focusing on it because Hutton focuses on Darlin' in your link as the problem for Mike, Mike is a co-author of that song, Redwood was working on it, Hutton says he can see how they wanted it, it ended up on the next BB album, Hutton singles it out. Is there something else from Hutton that does specify TTGA as the, or a, problem for Mike et al?

That's what I was trying to say.... If the Redwood thing is off and then two albums later there's still this beautiful Brian song laying around, tapes or no tapes, why on earth wouldn't The Beach Boys record it?

Once again, am I crazy or did Desper go into detail about The Beach Boys re-recording the TTGA backing tracks? I even remember him talking about them taping a piece of sandpaper on Dennis' snare head for him to scrape w his stick.

This isn't me refusing to heed to Guitarfool, but just an additional point being made and other questions being asked.




Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: lee on November 04, 2014, 01:48:47 PM

As co-writer of the tune is it insane to imagine Mike just wanted to get to sing on it himself and have his band do it?


It makes sense and isn't insane at all.

What I think is a bit much is IF Mike flew off the handle about it considering it was a rewrite of an old song The Beach Boys hadn't used. It would be a different scenario if Brian and Mike had written Darlin' specifically for The Beach Boys the week prior and then Brian was recording it behind his back with a different band.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again on November 04, 2014, 01:57:53 PM

As co-writer of the tune is it insane to imagine Mike just wanted to get to sing on it himself and have his band do it?


It makes sense and isn't insane at all.

What I think is a bit much is IF Mike flew off the handle about it considering it was a rewrite of an old song The Beach Boys hadn't used. It would be a different scenario if Brian and Mike had written Darlin' specifically for The Beach Boys the week prior and then Brian was recording it behind his back with a different band.

It being a damn good song might have something to do with it as well


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: CenturyDeprived on November 04, 2014, 02:21:14 PM

Once again, am I crazy or did Desper go into detail about The Beach Boys re-recording the TTGA backing tracks? I even remember him talking about them taping a piece of sandpaper on Dennis' snare head for him to scrape w his stick.
 


I would have to assume that the attempted re-recording of TTGA (regarded by basically everyone as inferior) has got to have something to do with the entire hurtful to Brian kerfuffle regarding this song.  It would be quite interesting to learn more about why the band tried to re-record it.

I'd be very surprised if that was a wholly independent situation, and not intertwined with the extraction of Brian and the song from the Redwood situation.

Also - since the song became such a painful episode for Brian, could Brian's wishes be a reason why the song was (surprisingly) not released as a single?

We've heard people (I believe Mr. Desper?) say that this tune was tinkered with more than just about any other tune in the band's catalog, and it obviously is a really, really good song, especially for the band at the time. All the more surprising/baffling why it wasn't released as a single. Not that the band hasn't done more than its fair share of baffling choices of what to release/not to release, but the pieces of logical motivation seem to fit together on this.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Nicko1234 on November 04, 2014, 02:29:09 PM

It being a damn good song might have something to do with it as well

Indeed. I don`t think anyone argues that it is certainly the most advanced production of that time and it is the most commercial single that they could have released. The fact that Brian was spending more time on effort on an outside project than he was on The Beach Boys stuff at the time was bound to be a problem for them and certainly marks this out as very different from the early 1960s period.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again on November 04, 2014, 02:30:20 PM

Once again, am I crazy or did Desper go into detail about The Beach Boys re-recording the TTGA backing tracks? I even remember him talking about them taping a piece of sandpaper on Dennis' snare head for him to scrape w his stick.
 


I would have to assume that the attempted re-recording of TTGA (regarded by basically everyone as inferior) has got to have something to do with the entire hurtful to Brian kerfuffle regarding this song.  It would be quite interesting to learn more about why the band tried to re-record it.

I'd be very surprised if that was a wholly independent situation, and not intertwined with the extraction of Brian and the song from the Redwood situation.

Also - since the song became such a painful episode for Brian, could Brian's wishes be a reason why the song was (surprisingly) not released as a single?

We've heard people (I believe Mr. Desper?) say that this tune was tinkered with more than just about any other tune in the band's catalog, and it obviously is a really, really good song, especially for the band at the time. All the more surprising/baffling why it wasn't released as a single. Not that the band hasn't done more than its fair share of baffling choices of what to release/not to release, but the pieces of logical motivation seem to fit together on this.

Very well put, CD.

For some reason this makes me think of Tevor Horn talking about  Yes and Owner Of A Lonely Heart.

He basically begged/forced the band to record the song and Tevor Rabin had his feelings hurt that Horn made him re-write the lyrics and not allow a big booming snare sound. Alan White was pissed that he had to record his drums piecemeal, Jon Anderson was pissed that they didn't want him to re-write the lyrics yet agsin, but he persisted until he wore everyone down and forced in the "eagle in the sky" line. In response, Horn snuck in a rifle blast sound effect in order to symbolicaly "shoot down the eagle"

Point is: BANDS!!!!!








Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: lee on November 04, 2014, 04:05:57 PM
I can understand being upset that someone is writing "hits" for another band while The Beach Boys are struggling. I get it. With TTGA being Brian's creation, Mike and Carl had no right leaving the studio with that tape. They can be pissed all they want but they have no right to a song they had no hand in writing. TTGA is one of my all time favorite Beach Boys songs but Brian should have told them to go !@#$ themselves.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: CenturyDeprived on November 04, 2014, 04:20:48 PM
I can understand being upset that someone is writing "hits" for another band while The Beach Boys are struggling. I get it. With TTGA being Brian's creation, Mike and Carl had no right leaving the studio with that tape. They can be pissed all they want but they have no right to a song they had no hand in writing. TTGA is one of my all time favorite Beach Boys songs but Brian should have told them to go !@#$ themselves.

I agree completely (and TTGA is also one of my all time fave BB songs). While I can understand the motivations, I don't think it was right, particularly at a time when Brian was starting to emotionally unravel bit by bit. I've said it before and I'll say it again: It's my opinion that Mike in particular was the absolute wrong personality type to be together in a band with a guy like Brian past a certain point in the BBs timeline, because I don't think he "got it" then (nor now) that he could probably cause emotional damage, however inadvertent, to his emotionally vulnerable cousin. I don't think that Brian's emotional well-being was at the top of his priority list. In his defense, Mike wasn't a psych major, and was probably not raised in an environment that promoted healthy communication.  Sorry if this is a controversial opinion, but I don't feel I'm off base, based on my outside observations. I don't think Mike gets the "kid gloves" thing, or at least I don't think he "gets it" quite enough as he should.

There may or may not have been a way that they could have approached Brian which wouldn't have caused Brian so much pain. I don't know. I'm guessing that BOTH the fact that they came to take away the songs in and of itself, AND in particular the way in which it happened (very embarrassingly this happened in front of others, maybe forceful language, guilt trip stuff stung deeply)... both of these factors were likely equally significant in why Brian was hurt so much.

If Carl had come alone to convince Brian, I wonder: would he have been able to have convinced him on his own? And secondly, if he was able to, would Brian have felt hurt in quite the same way? I of course could be very wrong, but I tend to doubt it. Things to ponder. Some may want to dismiss all this as negligible, but context and tact make a BIG difference to some people. A deficiency of such can have long-lasting impacts.

I'd imagine Brian felt ganged-up to some degree on since he was outnumbered, and as Brian was well-known to want to avoid confrontation, I imagine that his bandmates knew what buttons to be pushed. It's all just sad. Again, ironically, despite that I think (from what we know about the incident) that it was just a messed-up thing to do, I am ultimately very glad that the BBs version of the song exists.

One wonders what would have happened if Dennis had been in earshot of this occurrence.  


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: bgas on November 04, 2014, 04:40:31 PM
So does this mean that  Redwood and the BBs used the same track for TTGA? 
Admittedly my hearing ain't the best, but they seem different, or at the least , different mixes


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: GhostyTMRS on November 04, 2014, 05:11:25 PM
Just something to consider before Carl becomes the next big slobbering and evil Beach Boys villain!

I was almost waiting for that to happen when it was mentioned in another thread that Carl didn't want to tour Pet Sounds live in the 90's with Brian because he thought Brian would embarrass himself. I thought that was kind of funny because Brian wound up touring Pet Sounds to great acclaim and by no means embarrassed himself or anyone else. Can you imagine what the reaction would've been if Mike had said that? HOLY CRAP! lol

There's a tendency among fans to portray Carl as this Christ-like figure born without sin and waving his hand over the seas and calming them...but hey, the guy was human like everyone else and made some bad judgment calls here and there. His batting average was pretty good regardless. "Time To Get Alone" is another good one. It's sad that TTGA is, according to Ray, still a big issue for Brian because it's easily one of the greatest post-Pet Sounds Beach Boys moments IMO with a lead vocal by Carl that could melt in your mouth. Not having it in their catalog would be like saying the Mona Lisa is too good for the Louvre.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again on November 04, 2014, 05:19:04 PM
Yeah, and what have we learned from this thread? That The Beach Boys are meanies, especially Mike and Carl, and Brian is an innocent puppy.

Just what any happy Beach Boys fan needs!

From here on out, anyone who defends Carl will be hailed a "Carl Marxist"



Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: RBennett123 on November 04, 2014, 05:41:29 PM

But Darlin' is the one Hutton singles out in regard to the "problem" in your link and it is the one that showed up on the next album. TTGA doesn't show up for two albums over a year later, what says it was part of the incident?

They took the master tapes. It was key to the incident. The sessions that led to Carl and Mike calling an end to it were for TTGA. The last sessions at Heider's or in general that were done with Redwood were for TTGA. How is it not a part of what happened?

Again, why have you not mentioned TTGA while focusing squarely on Darlin' and the potential reasoning that songwriting or lyric credits were one of the core reasons why all this happened? If TTGA were not a major part of this, why did the master tapes go with Carl and Mike and why were the Redwood sessions for TTGA when it was in its final stages the ones that got called to a halt by the Beach Boys?

GuitarFool;  I don't think "Darlin'" was the big issue for Brian ; he absolutely loves that tune and there are really no bad memories associated with "Darlin'" that I have ever heard him mention. I have never heard him say a word about Redwood/Three Dog Night in association with "Darlin'". My recollection is that the title was based on Danny calling everyone Darlin' ; I don't know if the lyrics were rewritten by Brian after Mike wrote the lyrics to Thinkin'Bout You Baby", or if Mike did the rewrite as well. For all any of us know , Brian had "Darlin'" planned for The Beach Boys all along , and was just experimenting with Redwood to see how it would sound. Pure speculation there.

"Time To Get Alone" is another story altogether.  There was/is a negativity for Brian about TTGA that was close to "Heroes and Villains" proportion.  It was a major struggle to get him to perform TTGA live; it all centered around the events at Wally Heider's and Danny. That was a repeated theme over the years anytime you would bring up TTGA to Brian; Wally Heider's, Mike and Carl, Danny being really pissed at him... The most detail I ever heard about it is what I passed on the other day.  One thing is for certain. Something bad happened to Brian in that booth at Heider's to have him still addressing it with Danny forty one fucking years later.  

I love your posts, Ray.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: lee on November 04, 2014, 05:59:16 PM
Yeah, and what have we learned from this thread? That The Beach Boys are meanies, especially Mike and Carl, and Brian is an innocent puppy.

Just what any happy Beach Boys fan needs!

From here on out, anyone who defends Carl will be hailed a "Carl Marxist"



Carl is by far my favorite of the group but he's made some bad decisions just like everyone else on this planet has.

I'm just as bored with the Mike (meanie) and Brian (innocent puppy) debate that every thread turns into, but in this case it's pretty spot on. To go into a studio where Brian is working with a new band, get into a verbal debate in front of the band and leave with the tapes (one of which Brian worked on alone) is a total asshole move. In absolutely no way do the other Beach Boys have any ownership of TTGA and it shows a total lack of respect for Brian as far as I'm concerned.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again on November 04, 2014, 06:09:53 PM
Yeah, and what have we learned from this thread? That The Beach Boys are meanies, especially Mike and Carl, and Brian is an innocent puppy.

Just what any happy Beach Boys fan needs!

From here on out, anyone who defends Carl will be hailed a "Carl Marxist"



Carl is by far my favorite of the group but he's made some bad decisions just like everyone else on this planet has.

I'm just as bored with the Mike (meanie) and Brian (innocent puppy) debate that every thread turns into, but in this case it's pretty spot on. To go into a studio where Brian is working with a new band, get into a verbal debate in front of the band and leave with the tapes (one of which Brian worked on alone) is a total asshole move. In absolutely no way do the other Beach Boys have any ownership of TTGA and it shows a total lack of respect for Brian as far as I'm concerned.

That is very well put, and all I can add is, none of us were there or are Beach Boys. We should always leave room open for things we do not know.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: lee on November 04, 2014, 06:16:59 PM
Absolutely true. I'm just commenting on what information has been given in this thread. If Brian was apologizing about the incident to Danny decades later, that leads me to believe something went on.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: CenturyDeprived on November 04, 2014, 06:17:08 PM
Yeah, and what have we learned from this thread? That The Beach Boys are meanies, especially Mike and Carl, and Brian is an innocent puppy.

Just what any happy Beach Boys fan needs!

From here on out, anyone who defends Carl will be hailed a "Carl Marxist"



Carl is by far my favorite of the group but he's made some bad decisions just like everyone else on this planet has.

I'm just as bored with the Mike (meanie) and Brian (innocent puppy) debate that every thread turns into, but in this case it's pretty spot on. To go into a studio where Brian is working with a new band, get into a verbal debate in front of the band and leave with the tapes (one of which Brian worked on alone) is a total asshole move. In absolutely no way do the other Beach Boys have any ownership of TTGA and it shows a total lack of respect for Brian as far as I'm concerned.

That is very well put, and all I can add is, none of us were there or are Beach Boys. We should always leave room open for things we do not know.


While I may seem opinionated about certain things, I think that's a very fair and appropriate assessment to make.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: guitarfool2002 on November 04, 2014, 06:29:05 PM

Well, if the tapes were no longer going to be used by Redwood, what else was going to happen to them?

So you're focusing on one song which was finished and released later while ignoring the other song related to the incident which has logical motivation behind it, for Mike, a least? .... Um OK.

Isn't Desper on record talking about The Beach Boys re-recording the backing tracks for TTGA?


I wasn't even going to reply to something like this, but do you think those of us reading this thread are idiots or something? The TTGA tapes were currently in use by Redwood in October 67, were being worked on by Brian and Redwood at Heider's, and were slated to be a Redwood project of some kind when Carl and Mike took the masters and ended the work being done by Brian for Redwood. Is that not clear enough?

And how am I ignoring the other song Darlin when I wrote at least two paragraphs or more about it and its construction back on page 2? For f***'s sake.

If it's at a point where common sense is being challenged like this in order to make a point or to further deviate from what the original issues are and were, we're seriously f***ed. And I mean that.

Man, do you really have to fly off the handle so easily?

And just because you say something or make a statement, it does not make it the final word for everyone else.

Time To Get Over Yourself should be a tune.

Name one thing I've written that isn't a fact which can be proven. Or give proof of your own in order to disprove something I've written here.

Otherwise, it's not about getting over myself, it's about you at least taking the time to read through the fucking thread before posting and arguing using facts that are simply wrong. The thing about the BB's studio and studio costs, the stuff about what would the tapes have been used for, those are simple facts that can be researched by anyone, and to post information you obviously don't know about instead of *asking* or confirming beforehand shows that you're more into arguing than you are getting the story straight.

I went out of my way to veer this away from Chuck Negron and the issue of Brian crying, whether it did happen or didn't happen that he cried or didn't cry, it means f***-all to me or my original posts. For you to bring it up again shows you have no clue about what was said earlier, or simply don't care. To say I'm ignoring the issue of Darlin after I wrote pretty extensively about it earlier is ignorant, that's the kindest word I can use.

Now you have Ray Lawlor posting something specifically about Brian and the song Time To Get Alone, and you totally ignore it. Not a peep from you, not even a question or a call for a clarification or acknowledgement of any kind. How obvious do you want to make yourself and your actions in this discussion? You're doing a grand job of it.

So let's see, you post completely wrong information, you argue and defend points that no one was raising and which some specifically said were not the issue, you continue to try to turn this into a case of people trying to badmouth Mike which was never the case from the beginning, you make snide comments about refusing to heed to me...who the f*** says that here and expects no one to notice?

I'm speaking as myself here. If you want to sh*t on threads, argue about nothing, ignore someone answering the very questions you're raising because you don't like the answers, and basically do what you're doing here, have at it. And expect to get this same kind of reaction in return. You don't post here like everyone is too dumb to see what's going on, and you don't patronize someone, me or anyone else, without getting a push back.

You don't like the answers, or you think they're wrong? Find something factual to back up whatever position you're advocating, put it on the table, and discuss it rationally and with common sense. In other words, either sh*t or get off the pot. I'm not going to sit back and watch you base arguments on completely false information or try to paint the discussion in some way you can discredit and tear down because you don't like the facts.

Last time: You made a specific charge, now it's your turn to put up some information to prove that something I've written in this thread is incorrect or can be shown to be false. That is a more than simple request.

And if you instead choose to try to discredit me, patronize me, make it seem like my "information" which I've written here is suspect or less than truthful as I've shown yours to be with basic information any fan has access to, consider spending that time reading up on the history and the details before you do.



Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again on November 04, 2014, 06:50:32 PM
AAAAAAAARGGGGG!

Once again, all someone has to do is disagree with you and they end up in your crazed kangaroo court.

This is a damn discussion board, not a police report.

And maybe If you weren't so quick to fly off into cussing fits it would be less entertaining. It is also quite immature to dismiss someone outright and the entirety of their postings down to their basic intelligence because they disagree with you.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇 on November 04, 2014, 08:12:08 PM
To be frank, if someone had posted

Quote
Time To Get Over Yourself should be a tune.

in response to me, I'd react the same way. Also...

Quote
And maybe If you weren't so quick to fly off into cussing fits it would be less entertaining.

If I understand your post correctly, you're finding this entertaining ?! Is that why you posted what you did without addressing either of these valid points

Quote
To say I'm ignoring the issue of Darlin after I wrote pretty extensively about it earlier is ignorant, that's the kindest word I can use.

Quote
Now you have Ray Lawlor posting something specifically about Brian and the song Time To Get Alone, and you totally ignore it. Not a peep from you, not even a question or a call for a clarification or acknowledgement of any kind. How obvious do you want to make yourself and your actions in this discussion? You're doing a grand job of it.
?

I know this is 'entertaining' to you (if that's not what you meant by that, then I apologize) , but you posting this
Quote
It is also quite immature to dismiss someone outright and the entirety of their postings down to their basic intelligence because they disagree with you.
is a bit rich considering that's what you've been doing in your responses!

Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but your last several posts have come across as baiting. GhostyTMRS had a VERY valid point with

Quote
I was almost waiting for that to happen when it was mentioned in another thread that Carl didn't want to tour Pet Sounds live in the 90's with Brian because he thought Brian would embarrass himself. I thought that was kind of funny because Brian wound up touring Pet Sounds to great acclaim and by no means embarrassed himself or anyone else. Can you imagine what the reaction would've been if Mike had said that? HOLY CRAP! lol

There's a tendency among fans to portray Carl as this Christ-like figure born without sin and waving his hand over the seas and calming them...but hey, the guy was human like everyone else and made some bad judgment calls here and there. His batting average was pretty good regardless. "Time To Get Alone" is another good one. It's sad that TTGA is, according to Ray, still a big issue for Brian because it's easily one of the greatest post-Pet Sounds Beach Boys moments IMO with a lead vocal by Carl that could melt in your mouth. Not having it in their catalog would be like saying the Mona Lisa is too good for the Louvre.

and you responded with
Quote
Yeah, and what have we learned from this thread? That The Beach Boys are meanies, especially Mike and Carl, and Brian is an innocent puppy.

Just what any happy Beach Boys fan needs!

From here on out, anyone who defends Carl will be hailed a "Carl Marxist"

What is up with the sarcasm there? Nothing Ghosty posted deserved that response. You completely ignored what he was posting and instead made a snide joke about it, yet you're accusing GF of being immature and dismissing a post outright because you disagree with it. Pot, kettle, black.

For God's sake, the infighting on this board has long passed the point of being ludicrous, but what really bothers me now is that it's no longer debating, but rather turning people's words around and selective reading. And it's not limited to the 'Brian is God, Mike is the devil' side, or vice versa. I seriously wonder how many people here are actually fans of the band that this board was created ostensibly to discuss, or rather just enjoy being dicks to each other. Quite frankly, I'm sick of it.  This place has become as bad as any political forum I'm ever been on, and just as full of delusional hostility.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again on November 04, 2014, 09:03:30 PM
To be frank, if someone had posted

Quote
Time To Get Over Yourself should be a tune.

in response to me, I'd react the same way. Also...

Quote
And maybe If you weren't so quick to fly off into cussing fits it would be less entertaining.

If I understand your post correctly, you're finding this entertaining ?! Is that why you posted what you did without addressing either of these valid points

Quote
To say I'm ignoring the issue of Darlin after I wrote pretty extensively about it earlier is ignorant, that's the kindest word I can use.

Quote
Now you have Ray Lawlor posting something specifically about Brian and the song Time To Get Alone, and you totally ignore it. Not a peep from you, not even a question or a call for a clarification or acknowledgement of any kind. How obvious do you want to make yourself and your actions in this discussion? You're doing a grand job of it.
?

I know this is 'entertaining' to you (if that's not what you meant by that, then I apologize) , but you posting this
Quote
It is also quite immature to dismiss someone outright and the entirety of their postings down to their basic intelligence because they disagree with you.
is a bit rich considering that's what you've been doing in your responses!

Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but your last several posts have come across as baiting. GhostyTMRS had a VERY valid point with

Quote
I was almost waiting for that to happen when it was mentioned in another thread that Carl didn't want to tour Pet Sounds live in the 90's with Brian because he thought Brian would embarrass himself. I thought that was kind of funny because Brian wound up touring Pet Sounds to great acclaim and by no means embarrassed himself or anyone else. Can you imagine what the reaction would've been if Mike had said that? HOLY CRAP! lol

There's a tendency among fans to portray Carl as this Christ-like figure born without sin and waving his hand over the seas and calming them...but hey, the guy was human like everyone else and made some bad judgment calls here and there. His batting average was pretty good regardless. "Time To Get Alone" is another good one. It's sad that TTGA is, according to Ray, still a big issue for Brian because it's easily one of the greatest post-Pet Sounds Beach Boys moments IMO with a lead vocal by Carl that could melt in your mouth. Not having it in their catalog would be like saying the Mona Lisa is too good for the Louvre.

and you responded with
Quote
Yeah, and what have we learned from this thread? That The Beach Boys are meanies, especially Mike and Carl, and Brian is an innocent puppy.

Just what any happy Beach Boys fan needs!

From here on out, anyone who defends Carl will be hailed a "Carl Marxist"

What is up with the sarcasm there? Nothing Ghosty posted deserved that response. You completely ignored what he was posting and instead made a snide joke about it, yet you're accusing GF of being immature and dismissing a post outright because you disagree with it. Pot, kettle, black.

For God's sake, the infighting on this board has long passed the point of being ludicrous, but what really bothers me now is that it's no longer debating, but rather turning people's words around and selective reading. And it's not limited to the 'Brian is God, Mike is the devil' side, or vice versa. I seriously wonder how many people here are actually fans of the band that this board was created ostensibly to discuss, or rather just enjoy being dicks to each other. Quite frankly, I'm sick of it.  This place has become as bad as any political forum I'm ever been on, and just as full of delusional hostility.

I was just adding to what Ghosty posted .... Eeek.

I know perfecty well that it's politically correct to just single me out, but please take a look a Guitarfool's responses if you care to know what might motivate a "baiting" response... And, no, I dont find this the least bit entertaining. And some folk don't tend to take well to having cussing fits directed at them... If cussing fits are not looked at as at all uncool, but any less then laudatory responses to them ARE seen as uncool.... well, I don't quite know what to make of that.

And again, these threads are not court depositions. I do not owe Guitarfool or anyone an answer to any particular question that is demanded of me. I have tried to present my views with logical parameters. A good 70% of this board is speculation and it is not fair to accuse someone of being basically worthless when they do not cough up a hard fact to support musings on the emotional state or motivations of these Beach-Type-People.




Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇 on November 04, 2014, 10:22:40 PM
I'm not singling you out...i don't care about 'political correctness' in the least, and you should know by now more often than not we've agreed on things in the past.  I *have* read the posts in this thread, and the thing is..the issue wasnt between you and GF at first (and there a couple of posts by others that crossed the line that will be addressed individually ) but then coming in and telling him to get over himself,  when he rightly became irritated when being questioned over something confirmed by Ray...well, i do have an issue with that. Actually,  what really grinds my gears, (and this is NOT directed at you) is the seemingly compulsive need by some members on this board to immediately try to discredit anything posted by an insider like Ray or Jon, and in many cases are doing it merely to be contrary.

And if you didn't find it entertaining,  then why did you say that? Maybe it wasn't your intent, but it came across as you being entertained because someone was getting upset. ..it came across as borderline bullying. Again, that may not have been your intent, but if it was, then i have a major issue with that. 

I may have missed it, but where did anybody call anyone worthless? I've read through this thread three times since i got home , and i have not seen that. If i missed,  please point me in the right direction,  and i will handle that.

In any case...i have several other posts i need to address with certain posters, and i need to go to work in the morning,  but I'm going to leave with this...directed towards everybody... it's one thing to disagree , but i really wish everyone would be more respectful to each other, and if facts come out that proves you wrong, accept it. We're all wrong at times. It's ok. And, really, so many things over the years have been disproven, or new things have been recently brought to light... it happens. 


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again on November 04, 2014, 10:42:10 PM
Well put Billy.

Yeah, the word "entertaining" was misused and was intended to be part of a elaborate point that I didn't follow through with. My bad on that one.

It's a bit concerning that the reaction to something is a big deal but what prompted that reaction is not discussed..... I honestly don't get it.

PM me it you wish. This sort of thing need not be dragged out in public.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on November 04, 2014, 10:53:58 PM
Apologies for introducing the hare of The Negron Incident into this thread. In an attempt to lay it, here is exactly what he claims, in his book:

"It all came to a head...when Mike Love, Carl Wilson and Al Jardine came to the studio and heard our version of 'Time To Get Alone'...They manoeuvred Brian into the control booth and reduced him to tears. It was a cruel and pathetic scene. Danny, Cory and I were in the studio and could see it all happening through the control-booth window. It was as if Brian had turned into a little boy. The conversation appeared quiet and calm, but we could tell it was emotional and intense. The others were doing most of the talking, like overbearing, controlling parents. Brian would move away, and they would block his escape. We couldn't hear what was being said, but I think a good lip-reader would have picked up something like, 'We don't give a sh*t about these guys, and we want those songs for us.' We could actually feel Brian crumbling, and when he came out of the booth, a tear dropped down his cheek. His head was lowered and his shoulders sagged. It was the body language of a child who had just been scolded and punished. And this brilliant musical icon - whose songs defined one generation and influenced another - weepingly told us, 'We can't do this. I have to give the songs to them. They're family and I have to take care of my family. They want the songs. I'll give you any amount of money you want to finish an album, but I can't produce it. They won't let me.'"

Salient points:

1 - he claims Alan was there too. Hutton doesn't mention him in any interview he's given.

2 - although he admits they couldn't hear through the booth window, nonetheless he tells us what he thought was being said.

3 - he claims Brian was weeping. Hutton has never said a word about this. In fact, and as ever I stand to be corrected, I don't believe Hutton ever claimed to witness this event but rather was told by Mike what was happening. If this is so (with the preceding caveat), then Negron claiming Danny also witnessed Brian being "scolded and punished" is, at best, an error.

4 - as has recently and pertinently been pointed out, at that time the original incarnation of Brother Records was still (tentatively) in existence and other artists begin considered, thus Brian's tearful speech goes 180 degrees against the company ethos.

5 - surely Carl, of all people, would have said to Redwood, "would you mind leaving the studio for a few minutes, we need to talk with Brian in private".

6 - he contradicts himself: "It was a cruel and pathetic scene" but yet "The conversation appeared quiet and calm"... "We couldn't hear what was being said, but I think a good lip-reader would have picked up something like, 'We don't give a sh*t about these guys, and we want those songs for us". Or maybe they wouldn't.

Apologies also for reading the original posting and assuming everyone thought the same way I did, that is "oh yeah, that's where Chuck claims they reduced Brian to tears, never happened", but only posting the last part: my entire and absolute bad. That this claim appears first in Negron's book and not at any time during the intervening 30-odd years is surely significant.

Now... what about "Sunflower Maiden" ?



Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: CenturyDeprived on November 04, 2014, 11:05:59 PM
Apologies for introducing the hare of The Negron Incident into this thread. In an attempt to lay it, here is exactly what he claims, in his book:

"It all came to a head...when Mike Love, Carl Wilson and Al Jardine came to the studio and heard our version of 'Time To Get Alone'...They manoeuvred Brian into the control booth and reduced him to tears. It was a cruel and pathetic scene. Danny, Cory and I were in the studio and could see it all happening through the control-booth window. It was as if Brian had turned into a little boy. The conversation appeared quiet and calm, but we could tell it was emotional and intense. The others were doing most of the talking, like overbearing, controlling parents. Brian would move away, and they would block his escape. We couldn't hear what was being said, but I think a good lip-reader would have picked up something like, 'We don't give a sh*t about these guys, and we want those songs for us.' We could actually feel Brian crumbling, and when he came out of the booth, a tear dropped down his cheek. His head was lowered and his shoulders sagged. It was the body language of a child who had just been scolded and punished. And this brilliant musical icon - whose songs defined one generation and influenced another - weepingly told us, 'We can't do this. I have to give the songs to them. They're family and I have to take care of my family. They want the songs. I'll give you any amount of money you want to finish an album, but I can't produce it. They won't let me.'"

Salient points:

1 - he claims Alan was there too. Hutton doesn't mention him in any interview he's given.

2 - although he admits they couldn't hear through the booth window, nonetheless he tells us what he thought was being said.

3 - he claims Brian was weeping. Hutton has never said a word about this. In fact, and as ever I stand to be corrected, I don't believe Hutton ever claimed to witness this event but rather was told by Mike what was happening. If this is so (with the preceding caveat), then Negron claiming Danny also witnessed Brian being "scolded and punished" is, at best, an error.

4 - as has recently and pertinently been pointed out, at that time the original incarnation of Brother Records was still (tentatively) in existence and other artists begin considered, thus Brian's tearful speech goes 180 degrees against the company ethos.

5 - surely Carl, of all people, would have said to Redwood, "would you mind leaving the studio for a few minutes, we need to talk with Brian in private".

6 - he contradicts himself: "It was a cruel and pathetic scene" but yet "The conversation appeared quiet and calm"... "We couldn't hear what was being said, but I think a good lip-reader would have picked up something like, 'We don't give a sh*t about these guys, and we want those songs for us". Or maybe they wouldn't.

Apologies also for reading the original posting and assuming everyone thought the same way I did, that is "oh yeah, that's where Chuck claims they reduced Brian to tears, never happened", but only posting the last part: my entire and absolute bad. That this claim appears first in Negron's book and not at any time during the intervening 30-odd years is surely significant.

Now... what about "Sunflower Maiden" ?



Since the book, has anyone ever followed up with Negron or had a chance to ask him any questions in person about said incident? 


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on November 04, 2014, 11:14:31 PM
Honestly ? I don't think anyone except us - that is, here on this forum, not the BB fan world at large - really cares that much... and I'd think it highly unlikely that he'd say "yeah, sorry, I kinda improved on that, actually I didn't see it at all". But, as I said very recently in a slightly different context, can't hurt to try.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Theydon Bois on November 05, 2014, 06:07:43 AM
Apologies for introducing the hare of The Negron Incident into this thread. In an attempt to lay it, here is exactly what he claims, in his book:

"It all came to a head...when Mike Love, Carl Wilson and Al Jardine came to the studio and heard our version of 'Time To Get Alone'...They manoeuvred Brian into the control booth and reduced him to tears. It was a cruel and pathetic scene. Danny, Cory and I were in the studio and could see it all happening through the control-booth window. It was as if Brian had turned into a little boy. The conversation appeared quiet and calm, but we could tell it was emotional and intense. The others were doing most of the talking, like overbearing, controlling parents. Brian would move away, and they would block his escape. We couldn't hear what was being said, but I think a good lip-reader would have picked up something like, 'We don't give a sh*t about these guys, and we want those songs for us.' We could actually feel Brian crumbling, and when he came out of the booth, a tear dropped down his cheek. His head was lowered and his shoulders sagged. It was the body language of a child who had just been scolded and punished. And this brilliant musical icon - whose songs defined one generation and influenced another - weepingly told us, 'We can't do this. I have to give the songs to them. They're family and I have to take care of my family. They want the songs. I'll give you any amount of money you want to finish an album, but I can't produce it. They won't let me.'"

Salient points:

1 - he claims Alan was there too. Hutton doesn't mention him in any interview he's given.

2 - although he admits they couldn't hear through the booth window, nonetheless he tells us what he thought was being said.

3 - he claims Brian was weeping. Hutton has never said a word about this. In fact, and as ever I stand to be corrected, I don't believe Hutton ever claimed to witness this event but rather was told by Mike what was happening. If this is so (with the preceding caveat), then Negron claiming Danny also witnessed Brian being "scolded and punished" is, at best, an error.

4 - as has recently and pertinently been pointed out, at that time the original incarnation of Brother Records was still (tentatively) in existence and other artists begin considered, thus Brian's tearful speech goes 180 degrees against the company ethos.

5 - surely Carl, of all people, would have said to Redwood, "would you mind leaving the studio for a few minutes, we need to talk with Brian in private".

6 - he contradicts himself: "It was a cruel and pathetic scene" but yet "The conversation appeared quiet and calm"... "We couldn't hear what was being said, but I think a good lip-reader would have picked up something like, 'We don't give a sh*t about these guys, and we want those songs for us". Or maybe they wouldn't.

Apologies also for reading the original posting and assuming everyone thought the same way I did, that is "oh yeah, that's where Chuck claims they reduced Brian to tears, never happened", but only posting the last part: my entire and absolute bad. That this claim appears first in Negron's book and not at any time during the intervening 30-odd years is surely significant.

Now... what about "Sunflower Maiden" ?



Thank you for posting the actual quote from Negron.  While there's certainly speculation in it (especially the "good lip-reader" quote, which I can understand your objection to), I think that some of your other complaints here amount to throwing the baby out with the bathwater.  Especially your suggestion that Negron somehow contradicts himself with "It was a cruel and pathetic scene" versus "The conversation appeared quiet and calm".  Surely anyone with any experience of passive-aggressive behaviour can confirm that it's possible to be quiet, calm, cruel and pathetic all at the same time?

(If you don't believe me, PM me your home address and I'll come round and be quietly cruel to you for an afternoon.)


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again on November 05, 2014, 02:03:51 PM
Devil's advocate question again:

What exactly is the nature of the "The Beach Boys left with the tapes" idea? .... I don't see it mentioned in the quotes in question.

We know the Boys did not rush right into the studio and record their vocals on the song, since we know they finished the song almost a full year later in October 68.

My point is: intense or calm brow beating or not: if Brian agreed, under whatever circumstances, to allow The Beach Boys to do the song, then how was it that they had no right to the tapes for a song Brian written and had produced the backing tracks for? Generally if you're a band working with a Producer on a song that Producer wrote and Produced the tracks for, you do not own either the tracks/tapes or the song... (they were signed to Dunhil records at that point, right? Did Dunhil have any stake in these tapes?) ..... I'm not saying everyone was nice and warm n fuzzy about it, but what was supposed to happen to the tapes if no one else was going to use them? .... At least the Beach Boys didn't rush into the studio and simply lay Carl's lead vocals over Redwood's, and they did attempt to re-record the backing tracks themselves ..... This was a year later than the incident in question. By that time it was probably just another song laying around for potential use, in the busy, frazzled minds of rock stars in a pinch and on a tough schedule..... So, question is: did Mike or Carl or Al actually leave the studio that day in October 67 with the tapes in their hand, and if so, why wait a full year to get around to it with the song?  Or does "The Beach Boys took the tapes" simply mean that they eventually used the backing tracks for their own version of the song? ..... There is a difference there..... The only mention of Carl and Mike taking the tapes comes in-between Danny Hutton quotes in "Catch A Wave" and is the author's words, not a quote ..... I'm not saying it didn't happen that way, but as is, there is room for question.

I'm simply asking these question for a more full understanding of events ..... I love The Beach Boys and dislike being quick to paint anyone in ANY particular light.



Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: Joel Goldenberg on May 31, 2017, 10:20:56 AM
In the press release for the Sunshine Tomorrow 2-CD set, Brian now says he produced Smiley Smile.


Title: Re: Between 1967 and 1976 what albums/songs did Brian produce for the Beach Boys?
Post by: NateRuvin on May 31, 2017, 11:25:05 AM
Yeah, I have no doubt that Brian was still largely in charge for the Smiley Smile.