Rolling Stone - Beach Boys Play Tour - Jeff replaces Christian Love

[Cam Mott]

Memories which were less than a year old (Anderle), less than two years old (Vosse), memories from someone who was at Brian's house regularly in 1967 (Volman), and assorted others are the ones I'm considering. And no, i don't think it's old age or fading memory or whatever other excuse comes in to cloud the point.

And Van Dyke for decades has taken a humble approach to describing his role, to the point of deliberately downplaying his role. He remained very grateful and projected that humility when discussing Smile, for the majority of public interviews.

If anyone knows what he has said in private for the past 45 years, meaning the 99% of the man's life that fans *don't have access to*, and can change the narrative, let's hear it.

So Van Dyke has said certain things now that he hasn't in the past, that's life. 

There are things we all hold very close and even keep secret which one day in the future we may feel like opening up about, for whatever reason. Again, that's life.

There is that, something like how they support a late date for the lyric "confrontation". Which is what? It's tricky.

[ToneBender631]

And trying to play the old substance abuse/failing memory card just doesn't wash with me in 9 out of 10 cases because it's simply not applicable, it's the biggest distraction and cop-out short of changing the subject entirely. If anything, a failing memory reasoning can be applied to anyone at any time, which is why I think it's such a bullshit excuse.

And blaming drug use or substance abuse would discredit the overwhelming majority of musicians and the rock music community in general up to the present day, so let's discount everything they say and blame it on "the drugs" when a quote disagrees with someone's opinion.  

I don't know how factoring in 50 years of time into evaluating the validity of the memories of a bunch of 70 year old's is BS...If this was 1972, maybe, but it's 2014 so the passage of time is certainly a reasonable factor to consider.

Anyway, I was suggesting that time, substance abuse and/or personal bias has probably clouded the memory of all parties involved. Most of the people in the BB world are in the "legacy writing" stage of their lives right now. Keep that in mind over the next few years is all I'm saying...

[Dave in KC]

I was bored and wanted to see what happened when I happened along with my VDP post in the JF thread. Without him, I doubt things would have gone down the way they did. Genius met genius.

[Dave in KC]

So, I must've missed something - is Matt J. Brian's official falsettist now? I only heard about him coming to lay down vocals for the album.

Yes, Brian (or his representative) has said he`s asked Matt to tour with him.

Interesting to see how a thread about Jeff Foskett replacing Christian Love can morph into a Smile discussion though...

This is the post I was responding to. Sorry.

[KittyKat]

It's also somewhat pertinent in that there have been a series of recent people who have left Brian's inner orbit, including Van Dyke, David Leaf, and now Jeff. Though the latter two are supposedly still considered friends, supposedly, and Jeff in particular says he's still friends with Brian. Van Dyke is the only one who seems to act hurt by not seeing Brian too much anymore.

[guitarfool2002]

And trying to play the old substance abuse/failing memory card just doesn't wash with me in 9 out of 10 cases because it's simply not applicable, it's the biggest distraction and cop-out short of changing the subject entirely. If anything, a failing memory reasoning can be applied to anyone at any time, which is why I think it's such a bullshit excuse.

And blaming drug use or substance abuse would discredit the overwhelming majority of musicians and the rock music community in general up to the present day, so let's discount everything they say and blame it on "the drugs" when a quote disagrees with someone's opinion.  

I don't know how factoring in 50 years of time into evaluating the validity of the memories of a bunch of 70 year old's is BS...If this was 1972, maybe, but it's 2014 so the passage of time is certainly a reasonable factor to consider.

Anyway, I was suggesting that time, substance abuse and/or personal bias has probably clouded the memory of all parties involved. Most of the people in the BB world are in the "legacy writing" stage of their lives right now. Keep that in mind over the next few years is all I'm saying...

What is and always is in my mind is that there is a tendency on this board to have people speculating about things they have no idea about, have no firsthand knowledge of, were not there, etc, while those who were there might say something that disagrees with the speculation (or the desired 'answer') and then those firsthand witnesses and friends are subjected to the usual litany of "they don't remember, it was 50 years ago, there were drugs involved, they're confusing things..."

And that's just silly, and needs to be called out as the BS it is.

And what's worse is when those who are similarly connected firsthand to some of these people say something that they know to be true, and that gets marginalized again in favor of agreeing with an opinion or assumption masquerading as fact.

Sometimes the phrase "the truth hurts" means exactly what it says, and I know that's hard to accept when it goes against deeply held beliefs or opinions.

This sh*t happens too often here.

[Cam Mott]

Hasn't VDP himself said specifically that he wrote only the words?

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

And trying to play the old substance abuse/failing memory card just doesn't wash with me in 9 out of 10 cases because it's simply not applicable, it's the biggest distraction and cop-out short of changing the subject entirely. If anything, a failing memory reasoning can be applied to anyone at any time, which is why I think it's such a bullshit excuse.

And blaming drug use or substance abuse would discredit the overwhelming majority of musicians and the rock music community in general up to the present day, so let's discount everything they say and blame it on "the drugs" when a quote disagrees with someone's opinion.  

I don't know how factoring in 50 years of time into evaluating the validity of the memories of a bunch of 70 year old's is BS...If this was 1972, maybe, but it's 2014 so the passage of time is certainly a reasonable factor to consider.

Anyway, I was suggesting that time, substance abuse and/or personal bias has probably clouded the memory of all parties involved. Most of the people in the BB world are in the "legacy writing" stage of their lives right now. Keep that in mind over the next few years is all I'm saying...

What is and always is in my mind is that there is a tendency on this board to have people speculating about things they have no idea about, have no firsthand knowledge of, were not there, etc, while those who were there might say something that disagrees with the speculation (or the desired 'answer') and then those firsthand witnesses and friends are subjected to the usual litany of "they don't remember, it was 50 years ago, there were drugs involved, they're confusing things..."

And that's just silly, and needs to be called out as the BS it is.

And what's worse is when those who are similarly connected firsthand to some of these people say something that they know to be true, and that gets marginalized again in favor of agreeing with an opinion or assumption masquerading as fact.

Sometimes the phrase "the truth hurts" means exactly what it says, and I know that's hard to accept when it goes against deeply held beliefs or opinions.

This sh*t happens too often here.

I can pinpoint exact times in my life, decades ago, periods, black out dates, where my memory is much more than hazy and due to substance abuse and/or especially tumultuous times, and I'm a good 30+ years younger than the guys in question ..... Like if I was specifically asked about my sister's wedding in 1995, I would have to refrain from much comment because I was simply not in a place where the memory files were being properly stored. It's not out of hand at all for me to chalk up any memory loss or haziness to substance abuse (as one definite factor) in my own life.... and no one would likely try and argue against it .....but when it's anyone involved in SMILE, such a thing is B.S?

[Niko]

Hasn't VDP himself said specifically that he wrote only the words?

Yeah I think so, but I'm pretty sure he would also make suggestions to Brian regarding the arrangements/construction of the tracks.

[Autotune]

‘Smile’ Van Dyke Parks, reply by Scott Staton JANUARY 12, 2006 ISSUE
In response to:

A Lost Pop Symphony from the September 22, 2005 issue

To the Editors:

Re: “A Lost Pop Symphony,” by Scott Staton [NYR, September 22, 2005].

For forty years, in numerous print articles, Brian Wilson has repeatedly stated he contributed music only to Smile. As well, I’ve maintained I only provided lyrics. Although I truly appreciate Scott Staton’s take on the work, I must disabuse him of Brian’s having envisioned the album as “an affectionate critique of America’s mythic past” etc. Manifest Destiny, Plymouth Rock, etc. were the last things on his mind when he asked me to take a free hand in the lyrics and the album’s thematic direction.

Music expresses feelings. Words, thoughts. In combination, they make songs. Still the most portable of all cultural goods, songs have consoled, amused, and even stirred peoples to nationhood. This broad potential of the song-form dates from the time of David to the present.

Brian sang: da da da da da da da da dah. I wrote “Columnaded ruins domino.” I’ve lived to regret it for the majority of my adult life. Now, I’d like to enjoy it justly. Still, I thank Scott Staton for the print. Many more deserving talents never get a whit of recognition in their lifetimes. We got lucky, I guess.

Van Dyke Parks
Los Angeles, California

Scott Staton replies:

I’m disappointed that Van Dyke Parks feels I mischaracterized his collaboration with Brian Wilson. My piece did make plain Parks’s important lyrical contribution to Smile. In describing him as a crucial participant, I referred to him six times and suggested that his departure from the project made it difficult for Wilson to complete it. I also referred to his first two solo full-length recordings as “minor masterpieces of idiosyncratic Americana,” and much of the piece closely considered the substance of Parks’s lyrics.

Despite these acknowledgments, Parks apparently feels that he wasn’t given just credit in my piece. This is surprising, because past remarks of his have clearly indicated that he was hired by Wilson, with whom he shared an interest in American themes, and that he worked with him in a collaborative but subordinate role. As I understand it, his task as lyricist was to illustrate images that Wilson’s music evoked. This is suggested by recent comments of his that are available on-line, in “audio portrait” sound files at the Web site of the American Society of Composers, Authors and Publishers (www.ascap.com/audioportraits/vandykeparks.html).

In these comments, Parks says of his collaboration with Wilson: “I was trying to follow his instincts, unquestioning, like a dog. Just be devoted and work hard to try to provide words to the phrases he came up with.” He says that the music of Smile is “anecdotal, fragmentary, schizophrenic…and the lyrics were required to follow suit…. What comes first, the music or the words? In this case, it was the music.” He continues: “Melody, it seems to me, provides the most fundamental, the deepest feelings, and I think feelings trump thoughts any time.”

Parks goes on to describe Wilson’s music as “image laden,” and explains that “we just kind of wanted to investigate…American images…. Everyone was hung up and obsessed with everything totally British. So we decided to take a gauche route that we took, which was to explore American slang, and that’s what we got.” Parks’s liberal use of the word “we” to describe Brian Wilson and himself implies that they shared an understanding of the album’s thematic direction.
In an interview with Parks published by The Guardian in 1999, he stated that Brian Wilson “was completely in control.” On the topic of possibly reviving Smile for release, he said, “I would like Brian to address this particular dilemma of his own life. If Brian would want to work on it, then I would be involved in that. But I don’t want to be paid to go to the embalming room. It was his baby.” For his part, in his 1991 autobiography Wilson recalled playing early recordings of Smile songs at a dinner and explaining the material to his guests. “The whole album is going to be a far-out trip through the Old West,” he said. “Real Americana. But with lots of interesting humor.” In spite of his failure to complete the work in 1967, it seems Wilson had an idea of Smile‘s thematic underpinnings.

None of this is to diminish the significance of Van Dyke Parks’s contribution to Smile. I hold his work in very high regard and much appreciate that he wrote lyrics for Smile. He has every reason to be proud of them, and deserves recognition. However, the way Parks characterizes his collaboration with Wilson in his letter contradicts comments he has made elsewhere, and risks oversimplifying the creative process they shared.

[KittyKat]

That author says Van Dyke contradicted himself. His latest tweet seems to be some type of coy insinuation that he influenced thedirection of Smile, saying Brian wrote nothing like it before or since. I'm pretty sure someone who could write something as sophisticated as Song Cycle right after Smile was not too drug addled, even if he indulged from time to time in mostly uppers, allegedly.

[Jim V.]

Hasn't VDP himself said specifically that he wrote only the words?

I love the SMiLE era and all the intrigue, but seriously, could we leave it out of a thread about Jeff Foskett and Christian Love. I mean, fucking seriously?!?

[Sheriff John Stone]

And trying to play the old substance abuse/failing memory card just doesn't wash with me in 9 out of 10 cases because it's simply not applicable, it's the biggest distraction and cop-out short of changing the subject entirely. If anything, a failing memory reasoning can be applied to anyone at any time, which is why I think it's such a bullshit excuse.

And blaming drug use or substance abuse would discredit the overwhelming majority of musicians and the rock music community in general up to the present day, so let's discount everything they say and blame it on "the drugs" when a quote disagrees with someone's opinion.  

I don't know how factoring in 50 years of time into evaluating the validity of the memories of a bunch of 70 year old's is BS...If this was 1972, maybe, but it's 2014 so the passage of time is certainly a reasonable factor to consider.

Anyway, I was suggesting that time, substance abuse and/or personal bias has probably clouded the memory of all parties involved. Most of the people in the BB world are in the "legacy writing" stage of their lives right now. Keep that in mind over the next few years is all I'm saying...

What is and always is in my mind is that there is a tendency on this board to have people speculating about things they have no idea about, have no firsthand knowledge of, were not there, etc, while those who were there might say something that disagrees with the speculation (or the desired 'answer') and then those firsthand witnesses and friends are subjected to the usual litany of "they don't remember, it was 50 years ago, there were drugs involved, they're confusing things..."

And that's just silly, and needs to be called out as the BS it is.

And what's worse is when those who are similarly connected firsthand to some of these people say something that they know to be true, and that gets marginalized again in favor of agreeing with an opinion or assumption masquerading as fact.

Sometimes the phrase "the truth hurts" means exactly what it says, and I know that's hard to accept when it goes against deeply held beliefs or opinions.

This sh*t happens too often here.

I think "it" happens here because it is so difficult to find the truth when it involves The Beach Boys.

Start with the guys themselves. Simply put, Brian Wilson, Al Jardine, and Bruce Johnston have a hard time telling the truth. There have been numerous - numerous - interviews by those three over the years that either leave you scratching your head or falling down laughing. You don't have to do much research to tell if what they said is the truth because something is already clearly documented somewhere which disproves them.

Then there are the musicians on the tracks. I'll just name three - Hal Blaine, Glen Campbell, and Carol Kaye. I would consider those three to be respected in their field - as people - in addition to being experts on their instruments. However, we know that respect and expertise doesn't always equate to the facts or the truth. Just because "they were there", should we accept whatever they say as fact? I believe we have enough experience with interviews from those three to answer "no". And I just named three musicians. There are many more musicians whose memories might be a little inaccurate, for several reasons.

And, finally, we have the "other people" who were there. You know, the ones who are part of the Mutual Admiration Society, the ones who want to be thanked in the new album's liner notes, and the ones who want to receive their annual Christmas card from The Brian Wilson's. Yes, I'm being cynical, but it happens. A lot. Most people who have any relationship with any of The Beach Boys value that relationship very, very much. They don't want to jeopardize that relationship in any way by saying something, even if it's the truth, if it could be harmful to a Beach Boy. I like what Kris Kristofferson used to say. He'd say, "I'd rather talk to the janitors." So would I. They have less to lose.

And then, occasionally, you might come across somebody who is actually telling the truth. But, unfortunately, because of all that I mentioned above, you still have to be cynical and question if they're telling the truth. A good example of that actually occurred on this very thread. An Honored Guest questioned if Brian actually knew ahead of time that Jeff Foskett was joining The Beach Boys, even though Brian said "Really?" when told/asked about it. The Honored Guest thought that Brian might be "pulling a Brian". Ray Lawlor, a friend of Brian Wilson who spent some time around Brian recently, said that, no, he didn't believe that Brian knew that Jeff was joining The Beach Boys. I wonder how many people take what Ray said as fact and trust him unconditionally. I mean, he was there. What more do you want? What more do you need? Why wouldn't he tell the truth? The facts? But I'll bet there are still some people on this board who believe Brian knew about Jeff, regardless of what Ray said.

This is a rock & roll message board, and a good one. And that's what we do on this board, we speculate. All the time. That's part of the fun of participating on a message board. You get to voice your opinions, your views, your thoughts, your doubts, your speculations. And we question things. Actually we question just about everything. And that's part of the fun, too. It's not BS. It simply questioning things. And what better band to question than The Beach Boys. That's because there is so much that has been written that is false. I won't list everything, but just think of all the myths we have disproved, just by discussing it on this board. And that never would've happened if we simply accepted what somebody said as the truth. You're making it appear like it's a bad thing. I thought disproving myths was a good thing.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

That author says Van Dyke contradicted himself. His latest tweet seems to be some type of coy insinuation that he influenced thedirection of Smile, saying Brian wrote nothing like it before or since. I'm pretty sure someone who could write something as sophisticated as Song Cycle right after Smile was not too drug addled, even if he indulged from time to time in mostly uppers, allegedly.

I'm not trying to say it was an exclusive factor, but that to dismiss it as a possibility is a bit odd .....

And uppers don't help with memory either ...... All they help with is having a clean kitchen at 5am.

[LdC]

I think this is big news and I hope Brian is ok with it.

What I really wanted t read was that there were some australian dates...

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

And then, occasionally, you might come across somebody who is actually telling the truth. But, unfortunately, because of all that I mentioned above, you still have to be cynical and question if they're telling the truth. A good example of that actually occurred on this very thread. An Honored Guest questioned if Brian actually knew ahead of time that Jeff Foskett was joining The Beach Boys, even though Brian said "Really?" when told/asked about it. The Honored Guest thought that Brian might be "pulling a Brian". Ray Lawlor, a friend of Brian Wilson who spent some time around Brian recently, said that, no, he didn't believe that Brian knew that Jeff was joining The Beach Boys. I wonder how many people take what Ray said as fact and trust him unconditionally. I mean, he was there. What more do you want? What more do you need? Why wouldn't he tell the truth? The facts? But I'll bet there are still some people on this board who believe Brian knew about Jeff, regardless of what Ray said.

I for one believe Ray...although I don't know him personally, every person I know who knows him says he's a standup guy, so I have no doubt that he'd know more than any of us. I just wonder *why* Brian didn't know; my personal hunch is he's too focused on the music to worry about other things at this moment.

[KittyKat]

Some people claimed to know Foskett left Brian months ago, or heard rumors of it, but did anyone hear rumors he joined forces with Mike Love? Put it this way -- Melinda may have not heard about it any sooner than Brian. At least officially, and rumors don't count until they're confirmed. Perhaps the Beach Boys wanted to make sure Brian had properly adjusted to Jeff leaving and funding a replacement before announcing it.

[Sheriff John Stone]

And then, occasionally, you might come across somebody who is actually telling the truth. But, unfortunately, because of all that I mentioned above, you still have to be cynical and question if they're telling the truth. A good example of that actually occurred on this very thread. An Honored Guest questioned if Brian actually knew ahead of time that Jeff Foskett was joining The Beach Boys, even though Brian said "Really?" when told/asked about it. The Honored Guest thought that Brian might be "pulling a Brian". Ray Lawlor, a friend of Brian Wilson who spent some time around Brian recently, said that, no, he didn't believe that Brian knew that Jeff was joining The Beach Boys. I wonder how many people take what Ray said as fact and trust him unconditionally. I mean, he was there. What more do you want? What more do you need? Why wouldn't he tell the truth? The facts? But I'll bet there are still some people on this board who believe Brian knew about Jeff, regardless of what Ray said.

I for one believe Ray...although I don't know him personally, every person I know who knows him says he's a standup guy, so I have no doubt that he'd know more than any of us. I just wonder *why* Brian didn't know; my personal hunch is he's too focused on the music to worry about other things at this moment.

Just to clarify, I wasn't questioning Ray or his credibility. I was using him, however, to make a point. Even though an individual, in this case Ray, could be part of the scene or "inner circle", as a fan or observer or participant on a message board, you still have YOUR opinion or view, which was formed over decades of research and fandom. It is sometimes very difficult, sometimes impossible to believe the source or messenger - when it goes against your beliefs. C'mon, we're all Mr. Know-It-Alls, right? And, as I pointed out above, sometimes the source or messenger eventually is proven to be wrong.

[Cam Mott]

Hasn't VDP himself said specifically that he wrote only the words?

I love the SMiLE era and all the intrigue, but seriously, could we leave it out of a thread about Jeff Foskett and Christian Love. I mean, fucking seriously?!?

I didn't bring it up but I'm sure whoever did will entertain your suggestion.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Some people claimed to know Foskett left Brian months ago, or heard rumors of it, but did anyone hear rumors he joined forces with Mike Love?

yes, although not permanently. That part was a  complete shock.

[the professor]

well, the professor had heard that he was leaving BW to join the BB around 2 months ago (no further elaboration is forthcoming), and I was just waiting for the news to hit. I added to my posts my own sense that a larger exodus and BB reunion of sorts was going to happen as well: that is not exactly the case, since I imagined that we would one day see all the BB together with BW the odd man out.  I further predicted/hoped that that would make BW rethink his current "management" which is protecting him from Mike.  That part is hopeful speculation. But Dave and Al are playing one date with the BB, so that's a mini version of what I envisioned. No one knows what happens now. But to answer your question, this must have been in the works for a while. I myself see every move by each man (Jeff, Al, Dave) as a breaking away from Melinda's overprotective concern for Brian and her disdain for Mike.

There is a force called the BB which is stronger than any wife's protective love in directing the futures of our heroes.  I have no idea what happens now, only the hope for a real BB reunion and album together.

[Pretty Funky]

If we didn't know better I'd think Brian called Jeff F instead of Jeff B on speed-dial to give him a spray about his comments on last years tour.

"Jeff?"

"Yeah Bri?"

"I hear you have an issue with last years tour so I've got to let you go." Click.

"WTF?"

[KittyKat]

It's possible that Al and David decided to break away from Brian when he insulted them by not inviting them on the few dates he's doing this summer. I'm not sure why they were excluded unless Brian truly had no plans to use them on the fall tour, either.  If he did, it seems like an oversight that he and his people couldn't be bothered to get them visas and pay them for the summer shows. I don't think it's a coincidence the show they're doing with Mike coincides with the time Brian will be doing shows without them on the other side of the globe.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

The issue of Van Dyke's role in Smile's music is something I've posted here several times, and I've thought (notice I said thought rather than 'know') he was more involved than people may think. The whole nature of collaboration involves sharing ideas, and when it's firing on all cylinders as it was at times during Brian's and Van Dyke's Smile collaboration, the ideas are free-flowing and also free-form: The ideas get presented and come out at a rapid pace, and at those times there is no one there with a scorecard keeping track of who did what.

But Mike's an absolute inhuman scum bastard for daring to ask for credit on Wouldn't It Be Nice for his coda?

I understand bias perfectly, obviously, but let's at least be honest about it ......

I'm not specifically asking you, Guitarfool. But I agree with your quoted point and am asking the board in general.

[ToneBender631]

It's possible that Al and David decided to break away from Brian when he insulted them by not inviting them on the few dates he's doing this summer. I'm not sure why they were excluded unless Brian truly had no plans to use them on the fall tour, either.  If he did, it seems like an oversight that he and his people couldn't be bothered to get them visas and pay them for the summer shows. I don't think it's a coincidence the show they're doing with Mike coincides with the time Brian will be doing shows without them on the other side of the globe.

Wow you've kind of upped the emotional ante a bit, haven't you? Do you know what the promoter presented to Brian's team for the show(s)? Do you know if they said "We can only afford one Beach Boy...not three!"?

On the other side of the equation, do you think that the Jones Beach show, which is the largest show of the tour by far, was booked on the July 4th weekend for a specific reason? Call me crazy, but a NY show including "America's Band" (and two other well-known "bands" of the era) in a 15k person amphitheater overlooking the Atlantic Ocean on the Saturday of a holiday weekend might be a decent draw for a promoter. Is it possible that Mike, knowing he has to sell a lot of tickets, called up Al and David (who specifically lives in the area) and said "Hey guys, how would you like to join us for this one special show?".

You're working off of very little information and extrapolating to the point of accusing Brian of "insulting" Al and David, knowing very little in the way of fact. Meanwhile, we saw Al happily in the studio with Brian a few weeks ago...