Al joining Mike and Bruce for Jones Beach show

[KittyKat]

I hope Al and Mike do not comment about the July 4th show.  The matter is basically over, there is no need to create any additional controversy about it.

The fact they haven't commented on it, so far, even when asked directly, to me shows they're not trying to escalate things. Which is a good thing, and hopefully continues that way. 

[guitarfool2002]

I hope Al and Mike do not comment about the July 4th show.  The matter is basically over, there is no need to create any additional controversy about it.

The only part of this that is over is the fact that Al will be in England July 5th playing a show with Brian while Mike will be in Jones Beach, NY playing a show that same night despite what was advertised a month ago. Plans do change, but this one seems like something of a major breakdown in the planning machinery happened in the last month to change those plans. There are still people here, fans who are curious what happened, who are pointing blame in various directions, so I'd say for them to make a reasonable charge against anyone involved there needs to be more of an explanation to be fair about it. So I'd suggest it's not quite over, and maybe these fans who may have even bought tickets assuming a show would be a certain lineup only to have that change won't consider the matter over until they get more of a reason why.

Whether the parties involved want to reveal that or not is up to them. And it's up to them how much they want to reveal and how they want to reveal it, if at all. It's far from over.

[JohnMill]

Never say never: these are The Beach Boys after all. Remember, in 2010/2011 Brian was saying he'd never work with them again when he knew full well the wheels were fully in motion for the C50.

My feeling is on some base level they all still care about one another to some degree.  The problem is whenever they try to come together professionally it usually results in a catastrophe.  My feeling is that if we ever see the C50 lineup onstage depends whether or not the following two quotients can be filled successfully.  First and foremost, Brian Wilson has to be comfortable enough with Mike Love being a part of his day to day existence at the very least at the level that he (meaning Love) was during the C50.  Then the ball is smacked towards Mike Love's court as to whether or not he is willing to acquiesce to whatever terms and conditions that Brian Wilson has laid out for him in terms of them being linked professionally to one another again.

There are just so many minefields and obstacles that come into play with this band in terms of bringing them together professionally.  With other bands it usually just boils down to a question of compensation but with The Beach Boys you have to consider compensation, direction, having to appease this one...sometimes at the expense of that one.  That being said independently of one another all parties involved have been quoted as saying (or at least had their stance relayed by a third party) some positive feedback regarding the C50 tour and in their own way left the door open to the possibility of working together again which again brings us to the obstacles in the way most of which are of their own device.

[guitarfool2002]

Ha! Love to talk to Al. Good old Ohio country boy Al.

But seriously, I think I know how all this will play out. You will ask the 'tough' questions, Mike will spin like he's always spun, and you will report it all as FACT. The rest of us doubters will be marginalized as Brianistas, fan boys, or pick your pejorative.

For all the piling on c/o RStone, I'd love to hear a he said/she said autopsy on this crazy band - whether by Stone, or say a British publication. I'm afraid I'd only accept your opinions Andrew as being representative of the status quo, not the greater whole. Another voice would be needed to give a fair voice to Al and Brian.

Sure. The state of things in BB fanworld is really unfortunate at the moment. The main problem is that the pro-Brian and pro-Al voices seem afraid to speak up. Where are you, guys? I started here as a would-be troll, and am trying to become "legit" just to speak against the loud... I don't know if minority or majority, who would have us believe the unbelievable.

Maybe you missed all the bandwidth I wasted posting in this thread over the past few weeks, along with the thread about the new Brian movie and the new Brian album. I did so because it felt to me like a lot of pure nonsense and illogical assumptions (like the analogy of 1+1 adding up to 27 or whatever the case) were being posted and repeated as something that they are not, which is the fact of the matter.

It is unfortunate that even to suggest something which is a solid fact is just that gets that person or persons labeled pro or anti anyone. Yeah, there are agendas at play, some of them more professional than just fans chewing the fat, but again I'll repeat something I always say: If you look for it you'll find it, and in this case the tone and playing with words and phrases through various posts and "assumptions" about these band members can reveal what's going on under the surface of posting opinions.

Just my 2 cents. And the issue regarding the Facebook replies of Mike's daughter might reveal there is more of a split going on in private between these relatives than many of the fans here would like to admit. But that's the danger of making private family "dirty laundry" public, isn't it?  

[Andrew G. Doe]

All will emerge one day, sooner or later. It always has thus far.

[The Shift]

I think we need to write off The Beach Boys as we want to see them and move on. Anything that happens over and above the status quo will then be a pleasant surprise. All this speculation about whether Mike can be killed with silver bullets, whether Al has a reflection or whether Brian stalks graveyards after midnight is retraction from topics that suddenly seem more entertaining, like Surfer's Beach Boys 2015 album thread, the poll on Beach Boys' favourite toothpaste, and the quest to identify AGD's milliner.

[Nicko1234]

I hope Al and Mike do not comment about the July 4th show.  The matter is basically over, there is no need to create any additional controversy about it.

Well even the concert itself is not over yet so I don`t know about that. 

I would say though that it is pretty unusual for any artist to cancel an appearance at a show and give no explanation for it.

[guitarfool2002]

I think we need to write off The Beach Boys as we want to see them and move on. Anything that happens over and above the status quo will then be a pleasant surprise. All this speculation about whether Mike can be killed with silver bullets, whether Al has a reflection or whether Brian stalks graveyards after midnight is retraction from topics that suddenly seem more entertaining, like Surfer's Beach Boys 2015 album thread, the poll on Beach Boys' favourite toothpaste, and the quest to identify AGD's milliner.

Have there been any recent updates to the "What Was Dennis' Favorite Color?" discussion?  

[Mendota Heights]

Have there been any recent updates to the "What Was Dennis' Favorite Color?" discussion?  

When I was blue one day I red that entire thread.

[guitarfool2002]

Have there been any recent updates to the "What Was Dennis' Favorite Color?" discussion?  

When I was blue one day I red that entire thread.

Orange you glad you did? I'm green with envy I haven't kept up with it.

[guitarfool2002]

I'd love for all to come out in due time, but I can't say the track record of the past few years has been a positive sign that it will.

Regarding some of what has been posted in this thread, it suggests the events of the dust-ups around Mike's press release just prior to the Grammy Museum event in 2012 are still unknown or have been forgotten by some here who tend to follow these things as fans pretty close. It was published and actually the chain of events as reported going back to the "Nutty Jerry's" booking issues around which specific band they had booked and were promoting for an October show still exist as online archives. And that was as of now almost exactly 2 years ago, June 2012, when the initial confusion started being reported in the local press around Texas where Nutty Jerry's at the time claimed they were told they'd be getting the 50th tour lineup when they booked and started selling tickets for the show, then within a week or however long it was the plans as Nutty Jerry's claims they thought were in place seemingly changed. A case of he said/she said? Bad business practices? Not reading the fine print on an agreement? Whatever happened, it was a matter of direct concern for the people involved in the 50th tour which was still in full swing as all this came down.

And the events which led to a press release from Mike's personal PR firm went beyond a few individuals and a few specific emails according to at least the reports in the LA Times when all of this news started to break, or one email that made the internet buzz just recently. So there is more of a story there, which again judging by some of the posts on this board some people either forget, never knew in the first place, or for whatever other reasons exist.

If some of that background stuff and a bigger "paper trail" via email communications comes out in due time, and as it may still be touching on various legal issues or agreements (or even privacy concerns) it might never see the light of day at all (ever), then it might help settle the confusion or at least give an explanation that after two years it seems is still unclear for many fans following the story on places like this and Facebook. It's up to the individuals and their interests what they want revealed versus what they'd like to see forgotten in favor of what's happening in the future, I'd guess.

[tpesky]

I have avoided dipping into this fray, because there are no winners. But one point did occur to me: there is  a lot of sentiment that Al abandoned Mike and Bruce here, BUT who said that Mike wanted Al in the beginning to even be there? Based on what we know ( I realize we may not know everything) Live Nation invited Al. It doesn't seem like they got Mike's permission to do that.  So Mike could easily have had to pretend he wanted Al there all along, when he may not have AT ALL! If he had said he didn't want him, it would have would blown up at that point on him.  So the whole thing was essentially a mine field from the moment Live Nation included Al ( and Dave to a lesser extent) .

As for Al inviting himself with Brian, who knows maybe he did, maybe he didn't. Perhaps the reason Al wasn't included originally is because the Live Nation thing was available. Once that ended, maybe Brian ( or his people)  called Al and invited him. Could have been that innocent. It seems Al will have a presence on the new album based on multiple sources so it's not like they weren't talking.

Perhaps Al decided it's easier to deal with Brian's people at this point than Mike, so he bailed?

[Pretty Funky]

I wonder if Mike will get asked about Al prior to the gig by local media or if they will even notice?

Hey I'm sure Brian can pull off a good couple of shows with Al next week but I said after seeing him live during the C50 I thought his true solo days were over. Even during the Smile tour in 04 (?) he was getting ragged towards the end at the gig I caught him. The years since he has passed more leads on to Jeff and co.

My point about whether Al had some kind verbal agreement with Brian months back was the fact he could 'probably' do it. The Mike/ Live Nation one-off thing must have come from left field and been totally unexpected surely.

[Jim V.]

Perhaps Al decided it's easier to deal with Brian's people at this point than Mike, so he bailed?

See though, even as a big fan of Al, the facts are he did say that he was going to be playing Jones Beach. So yeah, maybe he is on better terms with Brian's people. But he did say he would be there at Jones Beach and now he isn't. I love Al, but he simply shouldn't have said he was gonna do it if he didn't plan on fulfilling his part of the deal.

[Nicko1234]

I have avoided dipping into this fray, because there are no winners. But one point did occur to me: there is  a lot of sentiment that Al abandoned Mike and Bruce here, BUT who said that Mike wanted Al in the beginning to even be there? Based on what we know ( I realize we may not know everything) Live Nation invited Al. It doesn't seem like they got Mike's permission to do that.  So Mike could easily have had to pretend he wanted Al there all along, when he may not have AT ALL! If he had said he didn't want him, it would have would blown up at that point on him.  So the whole thing was essentially a mine field from the moment Live Nation included Al ( and Dave to a lesser extent) .

As for Al inviting himself with Brian, who knows maybe he did, maybe he didn't. Perhaps the reason Al wasn't included originally is because the Live Nation thing was available. Once that ended, maybe Brian ( or his people)  called Al and invited him. Could have been that innocent. It seems Al will have a presence on the new album based on multiple sources so it's not like they weren't talking.

Perhaps Al decided it's easier to deal with Brian's people at this point than Mike, so he bailed?

I haven`t seen any evidence at all that Live Nation didn`t get Mike`s permission. I think it`s doubtful that they even could do that but, even if they had then I`m not sure why Mike and Bruce would now be irked that Al is not appearing.

[Pretty Funky]

I have avoided dipping into this fray, because there are no winners. But one point did occur to me: there is  a lot of sentiment that Al abandoned Mike and Bruce here, BUT who said that Mike wanted Al in the beginning to even be there? Based on what we know ( I realize we may not know everything) Live Nation invited Al. It doesn't seem like they got Mike's permission to do that.  So Mike could easily have had to pretend he wanted Al there all along, when he may not have AT ALL! If he had said he didn't want him, it would have would blown up at that point on him.  So the whole thing was essentially a mine field from the moment Live Nation included Al ( and Dave to a lesser extent) .

As for Al inviting himself with Brian, who knows maybe he did, maybe he didn't. Perhaps the reason Al wasn't included originally is because the Live Nation thing was available. Once that ended, maybe Brian ( or his people)  called Al and invited him. Could have been that innocent. It seems Al will have a presence on the new album based on multiple sources so it's not like they weren't talking.

Perhaps Al decided it's easier to deal with Brian's people at this point than Mike, so he bailed?

That has been touched on but, even though I've been negative towards Live Nation in previous posts, I would be gob smacked if they thought they could have any say in a bands line up.

[guitarfool2002]

In general, there could easily be a set of conditions written into an agreement to book and promote a show based on who will be onstage, down to details if necessary spelling out that someone appearing on the bill has to do more than come out on stage, take a bow, play one song, and leave. The thing is, short of getting a copy of any contracts that were signed or agreed to through LiveNation or any of the parties involved, we just don't know what those details may have been.

I specifically remember since July 4th is coming up there was a July 4th annual free concert being promoted in Philly in the 90's where rapper LL Cool J was listed on the bill. I assumed as I think most people did that LL would be performing like the other musical acts on the bill, and by the reception he got the crowd was full of his fans as he took the stage. But instead he walks on stage, basically does nothing musical (he may have given a few minute talk about baseball because i think the MLB All-Star game was in Philly that year and he was somehow involved), and then he was gone. It was odd, sort of cheap too, but maybe whoever booked the show had that in his agreement to appear...they could bill him and he'd appear but he wasn't obligated to perform. Whoever booked him could *also* have had his attorneys and managers sign an agreement that he'd be appearing on stage with guest musician "Artist X", and performing a set of 30 minutes worth of songs together. They can ask that easily in any contract proposal, it doesn't mean the artist has to agree to their terms.

For all we know, the details of a guest appearance involving Al Jardine may have meant something different to LiveNation than it did to Al than it did to Mike. One party might think Al would be there for the entire length of the performance, while another might think Al would sit in on a few songs or even do one guest vocal shot on Help Me Rhonda or something and be gone. That's one of the devils in the details that haven't come out.

[guitarfool2002]

That has been touched on but, even though I've been negative towards Live Nation in previous posts, I would be gob smacked if they thought they could have any say in a bands line up.

With this specific point, again follow the internet trail of the Nutty Jerry's gig, set for October 2012 but canceled in June 2012.

If you believe the people who handled concert bookings at that venue, they were offered a booking for the Beach Boys - who had just played a show in a nearby Texas venue - and if you choose to believe their version of events, that would be the 50th Anniversary band with Brian, Al, and David who had just performed in the area. Then when the behind the scenes mechanisms started to turn, Nutty Jerry's got word that it would not be the band with Wilson-Marks-Jardine, but rather the Love-Johnston touring show.

And at that point Nutty Jerry's cancelled the booking that same week, citing the specific reason that they booked the show based on the Beach Boys 50th tour lineup they say they were originally offered.

In that case, this venue had the ultimate say in a band's lineup by cancelling the show entirely when the band members they agreed to book in June 2012 were not the band members they'd be seeing on their stage come October 2012. And unless I'm missing a part of it, their ability to do so based on the membership of the band was never challenged legally or financially by "The Beach Boys"...right?

[Pretty Funky]

Agreed, but isn't that a bit different than say Live Nation saying to Mike hypothetically "Hey. We know Al and David aren't in the group now but we need to shift some tickets. We want them in for a day."

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

If LiveNation had decided all on their own that they wanted Al to play the show and Mike didn't agree/want that, the whole thing likely would have been cleared up long before Al could have put in on his page, and we'd have no clue such a snafu ever happened.

[KittyKat]

One problem with trying to spin it in Al's favor: Al put the date up on AlJardine.com. I just can't get why people think that was perfectly cool or that Al must have had some kind of escape clause. If he had an escape clause, why put up the date on AlJardine.com? You know, where Al Jardine fans to to know they can buy tickets on a certain date and Al Jardine will be there? He could have at least put a "subject to final approval," but he did not. I know this, because I actually saw it on the page myself. I check out what Al's doing. I even put a couple of items on this board so Al's fans would know where to find him, for Aquapalooza and Atlantic City.

[urbanite]

I don't get the obsession with this, one concert, not a whole tour.  Why does almost everyone care that much?

[guitarfool2002]

Agreed, but isn't that a bit different than say Live Nation saying to Mike hypothetically "Hey. We know Al and David aren't in the group now but we need to shift some tickets. We want them in for a day."

Honestly, if presented like that and not getting into specific (and legal) terminology as you'd see on a contract to perform, I'd say no, it's a variation of the same thing.

It's all part of the negotiations, I'd say. Live Nation works with artists *and* venues, along with even organizers of package tours and shows like the Oldies Cruise or Malt Shop memories and whatever else is out there.

Let's say a major venue is offered the Beach Boys for a big weekend show. Live Nation and the networks that set up shows and tours contact that venue, and that venue comes back with a request similar to this: "We'll pay X-amount if you get Al Jardine on stage with them, X-amount if you get Al and Brian Wilson on stage..." and so on. They can ask anything, no matter how improbable, and it gets negotiated out immediately if it's too wild of an idea.

They're thinking purely in terms of ticket sales and the ability to charge more if three Beach Boys are on stage versus two, or whatever the ratio. Especially in terms of 2014.

Factor in also the contracts these venues have with food, drink, and concessions/souvenir vendors. If they get a full "Beach Boys" show, they may raise the price of a beer or bottled water 25 to 40 percent based on the demand and the assumption a larger audience will come to the show than would a solo Al Jardine concert, or whatever. And then those vendor interests have an interest in who will actually be performing - their income is now also tied to the ticket sales and demand.

And if the band management and lawyers can come back and say "we can get Al Jardine for that date, book the show", the offer for the band to perform would increase in terms of a guaranteed payment to appear with Jardine, or whoever else was specified.

So there is a direct relationship between who could and would appear on stage for a concert and how much the band or artist appearing would be guaranteed for that show, banking on the notion that if they could guarantee Brian Wilson and Mike Love would do a show on New Years Eve, the ticket sales would be considerably higher (as would demand) than if only one or the other did the same show.

In that kind of way, I think both venues, promoters, and the umbrella organization like Live Nation could at least base their offers and contract details on the membership of a band, and remember they can ask for anything but that doesn't mean the artist has to accept...which also means they may get offered half of the original figure if they don't accept.

I mentioned it several times, I know, but just consider the above details and think how many different interests lost money in the Nutty Jerry's situation because of which band members would or would not be on stage.

That almost confirms how vital the band membership can be in booking shows, because the entire budget and fee schedules in the whole concert and venue pipeline change based on adding or subtracting a single member in cases like the Beach Boys.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

I can see LiveNation perhaps maneuvering to try and get Brian in there for a date, but Al? Would they even know who he is? (not joking) ... If LiveNation did call Al all on their own, it was probably due to Mike or someone closely involved in the current Beach Boys initiating the process with Mike's blessing.

Pure speculation, of course.

[Pretty Funky]

I can see LiveNation perhaps maneuvering to try and get Brian in there for a date, but Al? Would they even know who he is? (not joking) ... If LiveNation did call Al all on their own, it was probably due to Mike or someone closely involved in the current Beach Boys initiating the process with Mike's blessing.

Pure speculation, of course.

They may have tried for the C50 line-up for all we know but Brian was already booked for Europe.

For Urbanite. Yes it was just the one show but it is interesting reading just what does go on behind the scenes in the industry in general. Thanks for your knowledge gf2002.