Al joining Mike and Bruce for Jones Beach show

[HeyJude]

Just a quick anecdote from a major band outside the Beach Boys' fan realm. This came from an engineer who had mixed a certain concert from that band which was going to be released. Somehow there was a leak of the mix, and also another different mix of the show that had come out in another format...or something.

So on that band's fan forum(s), there were fans who heard the different mixes and were saying how much better they liked Engineer #1's mix, and how they wished that mix would have been used.

Long story short, some kind of DVD or video release eventually came out using Engineer #1's mix of the concert that fans who heard it preferred to whatever else had been released officially.

Engineer #1 also read the message boards. And as he told it, there was a fan who took to the boards criticizing the mix because it wasn't the best one from Engineer #1...he could tell, he could hear it, it wasn't as good, all the usual stuff.

And even when Engineer #1 posted under a screen name that it was definitely the mix everyone was begging for, there were fans who insisted it was not, and they knew what they were hearing, and therefore could criticize it because it wasn't the right mix.

And if I remember Engineer #1 chalked it up to the ways internet communities can work at their most ridiculous. He did the mix, he knew it was his mix on the newly released concert, but he would have had to argue that point with fans who insisted it wasn't his mix.

Now that is funny, isn't it? And it goes beyond the Beach Boys discussions we have here.  

But mix differences (and mastering, etc.) get super duper subjective, and audiophile communities for some weird reason object to invoking even the suggestion of double-blind testing. Just go over to the Steve Hoffman Forums (which have a lot of great posters and great information I should also say) where some swear that the exact same mix AND mastering of something will sound different if pressed at two different factories. In my opinion, double blind testing would disprove some of those notions, but it won't happen.

I've seen cases where two different engineers/insiders disagree on which tape was used for what for the same project. That happened with one of the mixes on the DCC Gold CD version of "Endless Summer." It was discussed here. It got into comparing track running times, who touched what tape in what vault, and so on.    In that case, it can turn into a pissing match. The one guy did handle the tape and did master it, but some other guy has handled more tapes and done more work on BB material. Then what?

In any event, audio debates are different than "I personally saw X happen" and someone else disagreeing. Even in the case of that mix being used described above, the engineer was there and presumably not only mixed it, but saw it off to mastering, etc., whereas the fans are just using their ears.

[HeyJude]

@JohnMill

Yes, this is a discussion board, but that discussion can be about the facts and not just opinions and conjecture, especially on this subject. And while opinions can be fun and interesting, this subject begs for facts. So, having Ray here really helps set the record straight. Just wish we had someone who knew more about why Al bailed on the Jones Beach gig.

I know people like to often point out that it "all comes out" eventually, but the haze behind many BB-related incidents suggests that we do get some information at some points, but often not the full story.

It's apparently a fluke that we know as much as we do about the Jones Beach situation. Unless Al or Mike give an interview, or those awful facebook comments continue back and forth (I should say what I saw of the posts from Jardine's offspring were pretty straightforward and not inflammatory in any way; whether they should have engaged at all is another issue of course), I'm not sure we'll know what the business/financial/logistical things were that soured the show deal.

[HeyJude]

I wouldn't mind Stamos so much if he wasn't such a hamburger on stage. I guess he plays it to the hilt for the women that scream for him. I think more guys than girls are annoyed....

Precisely, and I don't believe to my recollection that Stamos addressed this particular point in that interview discussed previously. If he just joined on stage and just played or sang backing vocals, it would be much less of an issue for a lot of fans. The incident with his appearance during "C50" kind of highlighted that.

[HeyJude]

These parties debate the given issue at hand giving the benefit of the doubt to whomever party they happen to be aligned with.  Then about ten-twelve pages into the discussion, another party joins the forum who actually has access to either Camp Wilson or Camp Love and gives us their take on what is going on in said Camp.  Then a bunch of other posters begin to "kiss rings" and marginalize the opinions of anyone else who does not have direct access to either camp.  Browse the forum's archives if you don't believe me.  

This is a very good point, and one of the main reasons why I don't like to just blindly defer to anyone who is an apparent (or even truly is) an "insider."

I'm not saying we should be rude to "insiders" (or anyone else of course), and some extra tact and maybe even pulling back from extreme or boisterously expressed opinions might be advisable, especially if the insider has a lot of important things to say but seems extra sensitive.

But if a thread is going along and you talk about going to a "Beach Boys" show and describe how it was kind of a "meh" experience, and then a musician in the band posts something, you don't need to then make ten posts about how awesome the show was and how everything was amazing.

As AGD often astutely points out, there are no doubt plenty of "insiders" reading this board all the time. If you said so-and-so sucked or this or that song blew hard, then some of your heroes or people who know your heroes probably read that.

Howie Edelson interviews the guys in the band and writes articles about it all the time, and he's also not afraid to call them on it when they blow it (e.g. the reunion), and not afraid to say things like yes, on occasion, Brian's shows had ventured into "Weekend at Bernie's" territory.

[guitarfool2002]

I think the engineer's point was that he knew exactly 100% what he did and what was on the release, and he was seeing a situation in this band's fan community where he'd be defending what was unquestionably "the truth" against fans whose opinions were suggesting otherwise. Whether it's audio mixing, or any other topic, if someone was there and saw it with their own eyes and/or directly participated in what was being argued, their word should weigh more heavily if not ultimately over what a fan who wasn't there might think is the truth. Yet, that sometimes is not what happens.

And it would not be an issue if those fans were criticizing the actual product (in that case the mix of the concert) at hand, as fans have every right to offer their views on what they like or don't like. But when someone starts the whole debate and offers opinions based on a lack of knowledge of the facts, yet still argues with someone who can say exactly what those facts are, it gets ridiculous. Most people like that engineer would probably back out of the whole thing at that point, short of making that fan who seemingly knows more than him look even more foolish. Most folks I don't think want to take it that far in any of these cases.

[Dancing Bear]

I don't think Ray has any desire to be an oracle that comes and ceases any debate about Brian.

Sure, if any wacko starts posting here that he's heard that Brian is depressed and will kill himself any time now, Ray is welcome to bring some sanity and assure that he talked on the phone to Brian this week and he was very interested in who would win the World Series.

On the other hand, if we were in 2003, do you think he'd tell us that Brian didn't give a crap about the new CD, phoned in his vocals and the whole project is a mess and an embarassment to his career? Hell no! At least I'd never do it with a friend of mine.

So let's not get carried away so much about Ray and 'the truth'. There's still plenty of space for speculations and uneducated guesses.

[guitarfool2002]

If you said so-and-so sucked or this or that song blew hard, then some of your heroes or people who know your heroes probably read that.

And most of those people chalk it up to the nature of being an artist where there is and never was no guarantee that people will like everything you offer them. That's the life of an artist, and a thick skin is a requirement.

But if someone says "that performance blew hard because they were playing to a backing track instead of going live, and the guitarist's vocal mic was turned off" and none of that actually happened, it starts crossing the line. Which is the problem I think some folks here may have with various critiques and criticisms, if and when that kind of thing happens.

And how about if someone posts how so-and-so sucks before they've actually heard it?  

[guitarfool2002]

There's still plenty of space for speculations and uneducated guesses.

As long as you agree with them? 

[drbeachboy]

I don't think Ray has any desire to be an oracle that comes and ceases any debate about Brian.

Sure, if any wacko starts posting here that he's heard that Brian is depressed and will kill himself any time now, Ray is welcome to bring some sanity and assure that he talked on the phone to Brian this week and he was very interested in who would win the World Series.

On the other hand, if we were in 2003, do you think he'd tell us that Brian didn't give a crap about the new CD, phoned in his vocals and the whole project is a mess and an embarassment to his career? Hell no! At least I'd never do it with a friend of mine.

So let's not get carried away so much about Ray and 'the truth'. There's still plenty of space for speculations and uneducated guesses.

Come on, that is 99.9% of what we do here; speculate & uneducated guessing. Truth & fact are a very welcome side show once in a while, in my opinion.

[KittyKat]

I don't think Ray has any desire to be an oracle that comes and ceases any debate about Brian.

Sure, if any wacko starts posting here that he's heard that Brian is depressed and will kill himself any time now, Ray is welcome to bring some sanity and assure that he talked on the phone to Brian this week and he was very interested in who would win the World Series.

On the other hand, if we were in 2003, do you think he'd tell us that Brian didn't give a crap about the new CD, phoned in his vocals and the whole project is a mess and an embarassment to his career? Hell no! At least I'd never do it with a friend of mine.

So let's not get carried away so much about Ray and 'the truth'. There's still plenty of space for speculations and uneducated guesses.

Yep. We also never know how many so-called insiders are urged by the artists or their management to quell negative talk on fan message boards (not just this one, I'm speaking in general of any fan board). They don't want the most reliable fan base, the people who they can depend on to buy new releases, to feel discouraged from buying the new release by people speculating it might be bad, based on media reports of how the project is going.

[SMiLE Brian]

Ray is 100 percent legit, enough said!

[guitarfool2002]

Just wondering where was all of this openness and tolerance for guesses and speculations and opinions when topics like, oh, the lyric credits for "Wouldn't It Be Nice" were being discussed?

I'm also waiting to see all of this welcoming spirit for random speculations and guesses when the next person posts any topic on this board with the words "Smile" and "Mike" in the subject line.

 

Oh, wait...those involve settled "facts" that can't be discussed or speculated on. What was I thinking? 

[Dancing Bear]

There's still plenty of space for speculations and uneducated guesses.

As long as you agree with them? 

We're all human and love to hear words that corroborate our opinion.

I'm human. I presume you're too. 

[Dancing Bear]

Just wondering where was all of this openness and tolerance for guesses and speculations and opinions when topics like, oh, the lyric credits for "Wouldn't It Be Nice" were being discussed?

I'm also waiting to see all of this welcoming spirit for random speculations and guesses when the next person posts any topic on this board with the words "Smile" and "Mike" in the subject line.

 

Oh, wait...those involve settled "facts" that can't be discussed or speculated on. What was I thinking? 

Well, you're free to express your opinion that Mike deserved the credits for WIBN and that Brian singlehandedly killed Smile. I guess that's going to stir up some heated discussion, but that's what we do here. 

[Mikie]

Just wondering where was all of this openness and tolerance for guesses and speculations and opinions when topics like, oh, the lyric credits for "Wouldn't It Be Nice" were being discussed?

Yeah, like..........did Mike Love really contribute lyrics to the song? Tony Asher said he did not - that Mike would have had to have "phoned in" the last words "good night, oh baby, sleep tight, oh baby" to Brian the last few minutes before the recording session without his knowledge.

Nuthin' like openness and tolerance for guesses.......and we can guess and tolerate 'till the cows come home and we'll probably never really know for sure.

[KittyKat]

Funny how no insiders have information about why Al backed out of Jones Beach,which was the topic of this thread. It indicates to me that Al has no insiders. At least none that are willing to come on this board and say his side.

[c-man]

Just wondering where was all of this openness and tolerance for guesses and speculations and opinions when topics like, oh, the lyric credits for "Wouldn't It Be Nice" were being discussed?

Yeah, like..........did Mike Love really contribute lyrics to the song? Tony Asher said he did not - that Mike would have had to have "phoned in" the last words "good night, oh baby, sleep tight, oh baby" to Brian the last few minutes before the recording session without his knowledge.

Nuthin' like openness and tolerance for guesses.......and we can guess and tolerate 'till the cows come home and we'll probably never really know for sure.

I believe those "Good night, sleep tight" lines were ad libbed by Mike at the vocal session; they are not present on the Brian-only vocal demo for the song.

[Wirestone]

Just wondering where was all of this openness and tolerance for guesses and speculations and opinions when topics like, oh, the lyric credits for "Wouldn't It Be Nice" were being discussed?

I'm also waiting to see all of this welcoming spirit for random speculations and guesses when the next person posts any topic on this board with the words "Smile" and "Mike" in the subject line.

 

Oh, wait...those involve settled "facts" that can't be discussed or speculated on. What was I thinking? 

Have you read the board in the last half-decade or so? I would say that the vast majority of posters here are decidedly pro-Mike, and a sizable chunk of them are actively anti-Brian. The few out-and-out Brianistas have generally been shouted off this forum or insulted so grievously they choose not to post.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Just wondering where was all of this openness and tolerance for guesses and speculations and opinions when topics like, oh, the lyric credits for "Wouldn't It Be Nice" were being discussed?

Yeah, like..........did Mike Love really contribute lyrics to the song? Tony Asher said he did not - that Mike would have had to have "phoned in" the last words "good night, oh baby, sleep tight, oh baby" to Brian the last few minutes before the recording session without his knowledge.

Nuthin' like openness and tolerance for guesses.......and we can guess and tolerate 'till the cows come home and we'll probably never really know for sure.

I believe those "Good night, sleep tight" lines were ad libbed by Mike at the vocal session; they are not present on the Brian-only vocal demo for the song.

Ad libbed or not, he deserves credit! Especially since he brought the issue up. It's easy to blow something like that off as ad libbed, but when someone actually raises the issue: in such cases I'd say it's best to just give then the credit. I mean it seems a bit silly to want to deny someone credit for something they DID do.

This is an issue which can never be settled (beyond in a court of law) so, we need to be able to disagree and still get along.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Just wondering where was all of this openness and tolerance for guesses and speculations and opinions when topics like, oh, the lyric credits for "Wouldn't It Be Nice" were being discussed?

I'm also waiting to see all of this welcoming spirit for random speculations and guesses when the next person posts any topic on this board with the words "Smile" and "Mike" in the subject line.

 

Oh, wait...those involve settled "facts" that can't be discussed or speculated on. What was I thinking? 

Have you read the board in the last half-decade or so? I would say that the vast majority of posters here are decidedly pro-Mike, and a sizable chunk of them are actively anti-Brian. The few out-and-out Brianistas have generally been shouted off this forum or insulted so grievously they choose not to post.

Being anti-Brian seems to be an excessively easy thing to "be" on this board. All it seems to take is to be pro Mike even in the slightest. In fact the two terms seem to mean one and the same thing around here.

[KittyKat]

Just wondering where was all of this openness and tolerance for guesses and speculations and opinions when topics like, oh, the lyric credits for "Wouldn't It Be Nice" were being discussed?

I'm also waiting to see all of this welcoming spirit for random speculations and guesses when the next person posts any topic on this board with the words "Smile" and "Mike" in the subject line.

 

Oh, wait...those involve settled "facts" that can't be discussed or speculated on. What was I thinking? 

Have you read the board in the last half-decade or so? I would say that the vast majority of posters here are decidedly pro-Mike, and a sizable chunk of them are actively anti-Brian. The few out-and-out Brianistas have generally been shouted off this forum or insulted so grievously they choose not to post.

Oh, please. Many of the posters here are Brianistas. A handful of Mike extremists. Lots of people in the middle, like me. I used to be  a sort-of Brianista, but the attitude of some of his fans is a turn-off.  There's also the matter that the Beach Boys were a band, and all the members put in sweat equity, whether they had as much talent or not. In fact, they put in more sweat equity in terms of being on the road, which I think many Brian fans underestimate in terms of keeping Brian's music out there to the public, even if it has included car songs and even cheerleaders on stage at times.

Has anyone here ever read Peter Bagge's defense of Mike Love? Peter is the guy who did the YouTube cartoons about Murry Wilson. He clearly is a big fan of Brian Wilson. He also once drew Mike Love wearing devil horns. Yet he wrote an entire essay defending Mike, and I think the only reason he wrote it was to be a contrarian and out of fatigue with all the Mike hate around the internet. I can see why he'd feel that way.

[drbeachboy]

All I know is that Brian isn't God and Mike isn't Satan. They are just talented guys who happen to put their pants on one leg at a time, just like the rest of us. I love and get frustrated with the both of them.

[Nicko1234]

Have you read the board in the last half-decade or so? I would say that the vast majority of posters here are decidedly pro-Mike, and a sizable chunk of them are actively anti-Brian. The few out-and-out Brianistas have generally been shouted off this forum or insulted so grievously they choose not to post.

Sorry but that is way off. How many Beach Boys fans are genuinely anti-Brian? Very, very few I would say and rightly so. The occasional negative comment about Melinda`s supposed role or Brian recording the occasional bad song (eg. Bill and Sue) does not make anybody anti-Brian at all.

There have been dozens of negative threads about Mike over the same period.

[c-man]

All I know is that Brian isn't God and Mike isn't Satan. They are just talented guys who happen to put their pants on one leg at a time, just like the rest of us. I love and get frustrated with the both of them.

As a side note, I often deliberately put my pants on BOTH legs at once...

[drbeachboy]

All I know is that Brian isn't God and Mike isn't Satan. They are just talented guys who happen to put their pants on one leg at a time, just like the rest of us. I love and get frustrated with the both of them.

As a side note, I often deliberately put my pants on BOTH legs at once...

If doing so in a standing position, that's a neat trick.