How would BB history be different if Mike had received proper cowriting credits?

[SMiLE Brian]

Mind sharing a link to that sheet music? Any chance you know of any sheet music for SMiLE online as well?

(I know asking for audio downloads is frowned upon but this is ok, right?)

Just Google "Wouldn't It Be Nice: sheet music" under "images"

Didn't expect it to be that simple. Now I just feel silly.

We're Beach Boys fans! We should fully embrace "silly" 

Can OSD be the master of  ceremonies of our silly BBs convention.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Like somebody said, if it's published and you wrote it, you probably deserve credit.

50% seems a little steep to me too. Maybe somebody knows for sure but I thought I heard that the jury awarded Mike a split for lyrics based on the number of co-authors. If that's true I wonder if Mike got 33% of lyrics, which seems a little steep to me too, for WIBN and if it came out of Brian's 75%?

The least Brian could do is make sure Tony Asher continues to get his due for Pet Sounds. As far as Joe Casual is concerned, it's the band's magnum opus (those of us who are more knowledgeable may agree or disagree with that sentiment) and Asher's lyrics are a huge part of that. It's not like Brian can't afford it, and it's bad enough for Tony that Mike's name got slapped onto his most successful song. Brian owes Tony that much, in my opinion.

IF it all came out of Brian's then Tony shouldn't care. I believe the jury set the amounts and method etc. so maybe some of Mike's percentage was considered punitive to them. don't know.

As far as I know Mike didn't specify any percentages and apparently he just considered getting low balled on the percentages as a cost of doing business with Brian and Murry.

I'd argue that the fact that he now has to share credit on WIBN (the most successful and iconic track of PS) is grounds to be upset. That's why I'm saying the least Brian could do is pay the royalties to Mike out of his own share regardless of what the court decided. I feel like Tony is the innocent bystander dragged into this mess who ironically suffered the worst for it. If Brian had just rectified this situation in the 60s, 70s or 80s Mike wouldn't have had to go to court and this WIBN controversy never wouldve happened.

[Cam Mott]

Like somebody said, if it's published and you wrote it, you probably deserve credit.

50% seems a little steep to me too. Maybe somebody knows for sure but I thought I heard that the jury awarded Mike a split for lyrics based on the number of co-authors. If that's true I wonder if Mike got 33% of lyrics, which seems a little steep to me too, for WIBN and if it came out of Brian's 75%?

The least Brian could do is make sure Tony Asher continues to get his due for Pet Sounds. As far as Joe Casual is concerned, it's the band's magnum opus (those of us who are more knowledgeable may agree or disagree with that sentiment) and Asher's lyrics are a huge part of that. It's not like Brian can't afford it, and it's bad enough for Tony that Mike's name got slapped onto his most successful song. Brian owes Tony that much, in my opinion.

IF it all came out of Brian's then Tony shouldn't care. I believe the jury set the amounts and method etc. so maybe some of Mike's percentage was considered punitive to them. don't know.

As far as I know Mike didn't specify any percentages and apparently he just considered getting low balled on the percentages as a cost of doing business with Brian and Murry.

I'd argue that the fact that he now has to share credit on WIBN (the most successful and iconic track of PS) is grounds to be upset. That's why I'm saying the least Brian could do is pay the royalties to Mike out of his own share regardless of what the court decided. I feel like Tony is the innocent bystander dragged into this mess who ironically suffered the worst for it. If Brian had just rectified this situation in the 60s, 70s or 80s Mike wouldn't have had to go to court and this WIBN controversy never wouldve happened.

I assume Mike's share did come out of Brian's future share and Tony's and all other innocent parties was left alone. After all Brian was the guilty party.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Like somebody said, if it's published and you wrote it, you probably deserve credit.

50% seems a little steep to me too. Maybe somebody knows for sure but I thought I heard that the jury awarded Mike a split for lyrics based on the number of co-authors. If that's true I wonder if Mike got 33% of lyrics, which seems a little steep to me too, for WIBN and if it came out of Brian's 75%?

The least Brian could do is make sure Tony Asher continues to get his due for Pet Sounds. As far as Joe Casual is concerned, it's the band's magnum opus (those of us who are more knowledgeable may agree or disagree with that sentiment) and Asher's lyrics are a huge part of that. It's not like Brian can't afford it, and it's bad enough for Tony that Mike's name got slapped onto his most successful song. Brian owes Tony that much, in my opinion.

IF it all came out of Brian's then Tony shouldn't care. I believe the jury set the amounts and method etc. so maybe some of Mike's percentage was considered punitive to them. don't know.

As far as I know Mike didn't specify any percentages and apparently he just considered getting low balled on the percentages as a cost of doing business with Brian and Murry.

I'd argue that the fact that he now has to share credit on WIBN (the most successful and iconic track of PS) is grounds to be upset. That's why I'm saying the least Brian could do is pay the royalties to Mike out of his own share regardless of what the court decided. I feel like Tony is the innocent bystander dragged into this mess who ironically suffered the worst for it. If Brian had just rectified this situation in the 60s, 70s or 80s Mike wouldn't have had to go to court and this WIBN controversy never wouldve happened.

I assume Mike's share did come out of Brian's future share and Tony's and all other innocent parties was left alone. After all Brian was the guilty party.

I should hope so. No reason at all for Tony to suffer for their passive aggressive bickering.

[Cam Mott]

Mama Says -- Brian 60%, Mike 40%
lyrics: Brian 20%, Mike 80%

Not to open another can of worms, but now that I think of it, how the hell is Mike credited for "Mama Says"? The lyrics are straight from "Vega-Tables" and therefore should the song credit Brian and Van Dyke Parks? However, I've never noticed Van Dyke or Mike comment on this.

Maybe Brian and Mike wrote the Mama Says part of Vegetables.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Mama Says -- Brian 60%, Mike 40%
lyrics: Brian 20%, Mike 80%

Not to open another can of worms, but now that I think of it, how the hell is Mike credited for "Mama Says"? The lyrics are straight from "Vega-Tables" and therefore should the song credit Brian and Van Dyke Parks? However, I've never noticed Van Dyke or Mike comment on this.

Maybe Brian and Mike wrote the Mama Says part of Vegetables.

Doubtful. Knowing Mike, the issue of being credited for VT would've come up then. Plus why would this part be axed for Smiley's Vegetables? I think Mike's main beef with the SMiLE Era was he felt left out of the creative process. How would this be justified if he was writing lyrics to the second most elaborate SMiLE track and the possible next single? Just doesn't make sense any way you slice it. I think it's more likely that Mike/Brian was credited out of habit, Brian was too apathetic to care, Mike was happy to take another co-author credit and VDP either never noticed, never cared, or both.

[bgas]

Mama Says -- Brian 60%, Mike 40%
lyrics: Brian 20%, Mike 80%

Not to open another can of worms, but now that I think of it, how the hell is Mike credited for "Mama Says"? The lyrics are straight from "Vega-Tables" and therefore should the song credit Brian and Van Dyke Parks? However, I've never noticed Van Dyke or Mike comment on this.

Maybe Brian and Mike wrote the Mama Says part of Vegetables.

Doubtful. Knowing Mike, the issue of being credited for VT would've come up then. Plus why would this part be axed for Smiley's Vegetables? I think Mike's main beef with the SMiLE Era was he felt left out of the creative process. How would this be justified if he was writing lyrics to the second most elaborate SMiLE track and the possible next single? Just doesn't make sense any way you slice it. I think it's more likely that Mike/Brian was credited out of habit, Brian was too apathetic to care, Mike was happy to take another co-author credit and VDP either never noticed, never cared, or both.

Perhaps VDP will sue for proper credit and back accounting for lost $$

[Cam Mott]

I don't know. Couldn't it have been written by Brian and Mike for the April post SMiLE Vegetables. Left off the Smiley Veg. Credited on the Wild Honey Mama Says. Was the April 67 Veg still unreleased at the time of the copyright trial?

[urbanite]

There's probably a statute of limitations that would block VDP from brining an action. 

[Please delete my account]

Maybe Audree should have had the lyrical royalties for that one.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

There's probably a statute of limitations that would block VDP from brining an action. 

Didn't stop Mike with WIBN.

Cam, according to TSS (I just checked) Mama Says began as a part of HV. Very unlikely then that Mike wrote it. Even if it's actually the other way around (H&V cannibalizing yet another SMiLE track) I just don't understand why or how the part Mike wrote could be left out of the reworked song on Smiley. Can't see that going over well with Mike, and knowing him I'm sure he'd have aired his grievances about such a slight by now.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Like somebody said, if it's published and you wrote it, you probably deserve credit.

50% seems a little steep to me too. Maybe somebody knows for sure but I thought I heard that the jury awarded Mike a split for lyrics based on the number of co-authors. If that's true I wonder if Mike got 33% of lyrics, which seems a little steep to me too, for WIBN and if it came out of Brian's 75%?

The least Brian could do is make sure Tony Asher continues to get his due for Pet Sounds. As far as Joe Casual is concerned, it's the band's magnum opus (those of us who are more knowledgeable may agree or disagree with that sentiment) and Asher's lyrics are a huge part of that. It's not like Brian can't afford it, and it's bad enough for Tony that Mike's name got slapped onto his most successful song. Brian owes Tony that much, in my opinion.

What does Brian owe Asher other than the chance to write the lions share of the lyrics for the greatest album ever made? Oops, he already did that!!!

Big deal that Mike's name got "slapped" onto WIBN! It's not like it replaced Asher's name! To Joe Public: Pet Sounds is a Wilson/Asher/Beach Boys project.

You guys can rage all you want but Mike's contribution to WIBN is on the vinyl and on the published sheet music. Therefore, he deserves credit (the percentage is another issue) .... You might think he deserves nothing, for your own personal reasons, but what he did is there and is tangible (Mike even sings his own contribution) and a jury agreed....... Can't we just accept it or should we book a group consultation with Dr. Landy?

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Like somebody said, if it's published and you wrote it, you probably deserve credit.

50% seems a little steep to me too. Maybe somebody knows for sure but I thought I heard that the jury awarded Mike a split for lyrics based on the number of co-authors. If that's true I wonder if Mike got 33% of lyrics, which seems a little steep to me too, for WIBN and if it came out of Brian's 75%?

The least Brian could do is make sure Tony Asher continues to get his due for Pet Sounds. As far as Joe Casual is concerned, it's the band's magnum opus (those of us who are more knowledgeable may agree or disagree with that sentiment) and Asher's lyrics are a huge part of that. It's not like Brian can't afford it, and it's bad enough for Tony that Mike's name got slapped onto his most successful song. Brian owes Tony that much, in my opinion.

What does Brian owe Asher other than the chance to write the lions share of the lyrics for the greatest album ever made? Oops, he already did that!!!

Big deal that Mike's name got "slapped" onto WIBN! It's not like it replaced Asher's name! To Joe Public: Pet Sounds is a Wilson/Asher/Beach Boys project.

You guys can rage all you want but Mike's contribution to WIBN is on the vinyl and on the published sheet music. Therefore, he deserves credit (the percentage is another issue) .... You might think he deserves nothing, for your own personal reasons, but what he did is there and is tangible (Mike even sings his own contribution) and a jury agreed....... Can't we just accept it or should we book a group consultation with Dr. Landy?

Dude, calm down. Seriously, one thing I really hate about posting here is any time I say something that anyone disagrees with, suddenly I'm 'raging' or 'out of line' or some other nonsense. All I'm trying to do is discuss this intelligently.

No ones disputing that Mike's contribution is there on the vinyl. You're missing the point of what I'm saying. I just happen to agree with the sentiment that an improvised couple words shouldn't grant one co-authorship of a song. Obviously the jury disagreed but I'm still free to express my dissenting opinion, am I not? As for what Brian owes Tony...well...how about making sure the man is properly compensated for his work. The more "mature" lyrics he penned are a big part of Pet Sounds' legacy. Tony's contributions would not have been questioned at all had Brian done the proper thing and credited Mike correctly back in the day. He's partially responsible for Tony losing a share of the royalties and prestige that are rightfully his as sole lyricist of WIBN. The decent thing to do, as a millionaire celebrity who allowed Asher to get dragged into court in the first place because of his apathy in dealing with Mike earlier, would be to cover Mike's settlements for WIBN out of his own pocket.

Tony Asher should never have been brought into it. Period.

[Cam Mott]

Right but the melody starting in H&V doesn't disqualify it from being a post VDP/SMiLE collab with Mike. It makes more sense if anything. They sound a lot more like Mike lyrics than VDP lyrics to me. Maybe someone could ask VDP if he remembers writing them. There no  MS on the cornicopia demo as I remember.

As far as left off SS, to me you are overestimating the control and influence Mike had. Since it was left off it was available for Wild Honey where Mike may have helped with the variations.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Like somebody said, if it's published and you wrote it, you probably deserve credit.

50% seems a little steep to me too. Maybe somebody knows for sure but I thought I heard that the jury awarded Mike a split for lyrics based on the number of co-authors. If that's true I wonder if Mike got 33% of lyrics, which seems a little steep to me too, for WIBN and if it came out of Brian's 75%?

The least Brian could do is make sure Tony Asher continues to get his due for Pet Sounds. As far as Joe Casual is concerned, it's the band's magnum opus (those of us who are more knowledgeable may agree or disagree with that sentiment) and Asher's lyrics are a huge part of that. It's not like Brian can't afford it, and it's bad enough for Tony that Mike's name got slapped onto his most successful song. Brian owes Tony that much, in my opinion.

What does Brian owe Asher other than the chance to write the lions share of the lyrics for the greatest album ever made? Oops, he already did that!!!

Big deal that Mike's name got "slapped" onto WIBN! It's not like it replaced Asher's name! To Joe Public: Pet Sounds is a Wilson/Asher/Beach Boys project.

You guys can rage all you want but Mike's contribution to WIBN is on the vinyl and on the published sheet music. Therefore, he deserves credit (the percentage is another issue) .... You might think he deserves nothing, for your own personal reasons, but what he did is there and is tangible (Mike even sings his own contribution) and a jury agreed....... Can't we just accept it or should we book a group consultation with Dr. Landy?

Dude, calm down. Seriously, one thing I really hate about posting here is any time I say something that anyone disagrees with, suddenly I'm 'raging' or 'out of line' or some other nonsense. All I'm trying to do is discuss this intelligently.

No ones disputing that Mike's contribution is there on the vinyl. You're missing the point of what I'm saying. I just happen to agree with the sentiment that an improvised couple words shouldn't grant one co-authorship of a song. Obviously the jury disagreed but I'm still free to express my dissenting opinion, am I not? As for what Brian owes Tony...well...how about making sure the man is properly compensated for his work. The more "mature" lyrics he penned are a big part of Pet Sounds' legacy. Tony's contributions would not have been questioned at all had Brian done the proper thing and credited Mike correctly back in the day. He's partially responsible for Tony losing a share of the royalties and prestige that are rightfully his as sole lyricist of WIBN. The decent thing to do, as a millionaire celebrity who allowed Asher to get dragged into court in the first place because of his apathy in dealing with Mike earlier, would be to cover Mike's settlements for WIBN out of his own pocket.

Tony Asher should never have been brought into it. Period.

Fair enough! I did tell Guitarfool to calm down a while back, so I'll hold off on that 2nd cup of coffee!

I agree regarding the monetary compensation for Tony, but as far as credit is concerned, I hardly think having Mike's name on WIBN somehow tarnishes his legacy.

Also, this idea that Mike's contribution was "tossed off" therefore not worthy of credit, is a bit intellectually dishonest. Tony Asher was not involved with the recording of the song. He turned in his lyrics and then Brian, The Beach Boys, and the wrecking crew had to go and make the record. Much like when a screenwriter turns in his draft which is purchased, re-writes might happen, and things might be improvised on set and the screenwriting credits on the finished film might read like a laundry list.....(example: Robert Towne tried to get Roman Polanski's name on the script for Chinatown due to his large contribution during the shoot, but Roman refused for whatever reason) ...  Simply because Mike's contribution occurred at the recording session and was not written down on paper beforehand does not make it unworthy of credit. It's on the sheet music and it's a part of the song....... Question: how many of you were clamoring for Asher's credit for those words to be revoked as being merely  "tossed off" when we all thought they were his? ........ No one....... Right.

[stack-o-tracks]

Mike never would have gone bald if it weren't for the fact he did not receive his due credit.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Mike never would have gone bald if it weren't for the fact he did not receive his due credit.

People would have a lot more difficult time hating him if he wasn't bald, because then he might actually have been cool!!!!


The guy's in the unfortunate role of paying for the sins of all our favorite rock n rollers who did many a reprehensible thing!

[stack-o-tracks]

There's a chance, too, that he may have never worn the turban in the 70s, and that would have been a shame. A damn shame.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Right but the melody starting in H&V doesn't disqualify it from being a post VDP/SMiLE collab with Mike. It makes more sense if anything. They sound a lot more like Mike lyrics than VDP lyrics to me. Maybe someone could ask VDP if he remembers writing them. There no  MS on the cornicopia demo as I remember.

As far as left off SS, to me you are overestimating the control and influence Mike had. Since it was left off it was available for Wild Honey where Mike may have helped with the variations.

It's not just a simple piano demo or something, it's the whole chant, almost exactly as played in VT but as a section of H&V. It's under the alt title of "Do a Lot." As Heroes was the main song here, and one Brian slaved over obsessively, I doubt he'd be further complicating things needlessly by having Mike write lyrics when there were already plenty from VDP.

With all due respect, I don't care if they "sound like VDP lyrics" to you or not. That's baseless speculation of the highest caliber. Frankly, the lyrics to VT in general sound completely different from anything else from the era already...so who's to say Mama Says couldnt be penned by the same man. And do you really think Brian would have VDP write all of a song except the chorus? I can't see VDP being happy to have his work "enhanced" by Mike Love of all people. Surely this would've been a HUGE bone of contention between the three, and almost certainly would've come up in interviews in the 45 years since.

I'm not saying Mike could overrule Brian yet in the studio. But why, now that VDP was gone, SMiLE was dead, and its various odds and ends being reworked into new songs, would Brian junk Mike's chorus of all things, but keep the rest of the song? If anything, you'd think it'd be the opposite.

Sorry, but without some evidence I cannot believe this "Mike wrote the VT chorus" fantasy. Not for one second. Nothing about it seems plausible, and then, why isn't Mike credited for VT proper as it came out in '11? If he weaseled his way into a WIBN credit, surely doing the same for one of the (more or less) finished SMiLE tracks wouldn't be beneath him?

[Cam Mott]

Right but the melody starting in H&V doesn't disqualify it from being a post VDP/SMiLE collab with Mike. It makes more sense if anything. They sound a lot more like Mike lyrics than VDP lyrics to me. Maybe someone could ask VDP if he remembers writing them. There no  MS on the cornicopia demo as I remember.

As far as left off SS, to me you are overestimating the control and influence Mike had. Since it was left off it was available for Wild Honey where Mike may have helped with the variations.

It's not just a simple piano demo or something, it's the whole chant, almost exactly as played in VT but as a section of H&V. It's under the alt title of "Do a Lot." As Heroes was the main song here, and one Brian slaved over obsessively, I doubt he'd be further complicating things needlessly by having Mike write lyrics when there were already plenty from VDP.

With all due respect, I don't care if they "sound like VDP lyrics" to you or not. That's baseless speculation of the highest caliber. Frankly, the lyrics to VT in general sound completely different from anything else from the era already...so who's to say Mama Says couldnt be penned by the same man. And do you really think Brian would have VDP write all of a song except the chorus? I can't see VDP being happy to have his work "enhanced" by Mike Love of all people. Surely this would've been a HUGE bone of contention between the three, and almost certainly would've come up in interviews in the 45 years since.

I'm not saying Mike could overrule Brian yet in the studio. But why, now that VDP was gone, SMiLE was dead, and its various odds and ends being reworked into new songs, would Brian junk Mike's chorus of all things, but keep the rest of the song? If anything, you'd think it'd be the opposite.

Sorry, but without some evidence I cannot believe this "Mike wrote the VT chorus" fantasy. Not for one second. Nothing about it seems plausible, and then, why isn't Mike credited for VT proper as it came out in '11? If he weaseled his way into a WIBN credit, surely doing the same for one of the (more or less) finished SMiLE tracks wouldn't be beneath him?

It is all speculation by both of us except the copyrighted evidence is the Mama Says is Brian and Mike collab. Ascribing it to a Brian and VDP is the speculation isn't it?

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Mike never would have gone bald if it weren't for the fact he did not receive his due credit.

People would have a lot more difficult time hating him if he wasn't bald, because then he might actually have been cool!!!!


The guy's in the unfortunate role of paying for the sins of all our favorite rock n rollers who did many a reprehensible thing!

No offense, but I doubt having hair would somehow magically make Mike cool

Not saying this justifies the Mike hate...but the guy just comes off as abrasive and clueless a lot of the time. Couple that with his nostalgia-centric view of the BB music, and less than stellar musical contributions (SIP, Looking Back With Love, etc) and he's an easy scapegoat. I used to be one of the blind "Mike is evil!!" fans until recently. Now, I still think he's a bit of a jerk (Hall of Fame acceptance speech, etc, etc) but I also feel bad for him in a way. I think a lot of the hate he gets is uncalled for, even though some *is* justified. Brian did him wrong all those years with song credits, I understand why he felt shafted after being the McCartney to Brian's Lennon all those years only to be pushed aside in '66...and, while I think he had a hand in SMiLE's demise, he was hardly the deciding factor. I believe what he wrote for the book in TSS is true and respect him for saying it.

He's not a villain. He's human...and sometimes a jerk.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Right but the melody starting in H&V doesn't disqualify it from being a post VDP/SMiLE collab with Mike. It makes more sense if anything. They sound a lot more like Mike lyrics than VDP lyrics to me. Maybe someone could ask VDP if he remembers writing them. There no  MS on the cornicopia demo as I remember.

As far as left off SS, to me you are overestimating the control and influence Mike had. Since it was left off it was available for Wild Honey where Mike may have helped with the variations.

It's not just a simple piano demo or something, it's the whole chant, almost exactly as played in VT but as a section of H&V. It's under the alt title of "Do a Lot." As Heroes was the main song here, and one Brian slaved over obsessively, I doubt he'd be further complicating things needlessly by having Mike write lyrics when there were already plenty from VDP.

With all due respect, I don't care if they "sound like VDP lyrics" to you or not. That's baseless speculation of the highest caliber. Frankly, the lyrics to VT in general sound completely different from anything else from the era already...so who's to say Mama Says couldnt be penned by the same man. And do you really think Brian would have VDP write all of a song except the chorus? I can't see VDP being happy to have his work "enhanced" by Mike Love of all people. Surely this would've been a HUGE bone of contention between the three, and almost certainly would've come up in interviews in the 45 years since.

I'm not saying Mike could overrule Brian yet in the studio. But why, now that VDP was gone, SMiLE was dead, and its various odds and ends being reworked into new songs, would Brian junk Mike's chorus of all things, but keep the rest of the song? If anything, you'd think it'd be the opposite.

Sorry, but without some evidence I cannot believe this "Mike wrote the VT chorus" fantasy. Not for one second. Nothing about it seems plausible, and then, why isn't Mike credited for VT proper as it came out in '11? If he weaseled his way into a WIBN credit, surely doing the same for one of the (more or less) finished SMiLE tracks wouldn't be beneath him?

It is all speculation by both of us except the copyrighted evidence is the Mama Says is Brian and Mike collab. Ascribing it to a Brian and VDP is the speculation isn't it?

If Mama Says was a standalone track and I was claiming without evidence that it was really a SMiLE fragment penned by VDP, you'd be right. But it WAS a SMiLE fragment, we have proof (the audio recordings and sessionography) it was intended for H&V or VT (both credited to Brian and Van, as I recall) and the fact is many of SMiLE's various odds and ends were recycled on later albums, so this is not without precedent.

As this whole thread proves, the BBs weren't very good at crediting the proper people for their work.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Right but the melody starting in H&V doesn't disqualify it from being a post VDP/SMiLE collab with Mike. It makes more sense if anything. They sound a lot more like Mike lyrics than VDP lyrics to me. Maybe someone could ask VDP if he remembers writing them. There no  MS on the cornicopia demo as I remember.

As far as left off SS, to me you are overestimating the control and influence Mike had. Since it was left off it was available for Wild Honey where Mike may have helped with the variations.

It's not just a simple piano demo or something, it's the whole chant, almost exactly as played in VT but as a section of H&V. It's under the alt title of "Do a Lot." As Heroes was the main song here, and one Brian slaved over obsessively, I doubt he'd be further complicating things needlessly by having Mike write lyrics when there were already plenty from VDP.

With all due respect, I don't care if they "sound like VDP lyrics" to you or not. That's baseless speculation of the highest caliber. Frankly, the lyrics to VT in general sound completely different from anything else from the era already...so who's to say Mama Says couldnt be penned by the same man. And do you really think Brian would have VDP write all of a song except the chorus? I can't see VDP being happy to have his work "enhanced" by Mike Love of all people. Surely this would've been a HUGE bone of contention between the three, and almost certainly would've come up in interviews in the 45 years since.

I'm not saying Mike could overrule Brian yet in the studio. But why, now that VDP was gone, SMiLE was dead, and its various odds and ends being reworked into new songs, would Brian junk Mike's chorus of all things, but keep the rest of the song? If anything, you'd think it'd be the opposite.

Sorry, but without some evidence I cannot believe this "Mike wrote the VT chorus" fantasy. Not for one second. Nothing about it seems plausible, and then, why isn't Mike credited for VT proper as it came out in '11? If he weaseled his way into a WIBN credit, surely doing the same for one of the (more or less) finished SMiLE tracks wouldn't be beneath him?

It is all speculation by both of us except the copyrighted evidence is the Mama Says is Brian and Mike collab. Ascribing it to a Brian and VDP is the speculation isn't it?

If Mama Says was a standalone track and I was claiming without evidence that it was really a SMiLE fragment penned by VDP, you'd be right. But it WAS a SMiLE fragment, we have proof (the audio recordings and sessionography) it was intended for H&V or VT (both credited to Brian and Van, as I recall) and the fact is many of SMiLE's various odds and ends were recycled on later albums, so this is not without precedent.

As this whole thread proves, the BBs weren't very good at crediting the proper people for their work.

I feel like the last sentence in your above post really should settle this thread once and for all.....

[Cam Mott]

Was the mama says section with those lyrics ever ascribed to or recorded together during the VDP/SMILE era? I don't think so. Unless I'm forgetting something. 

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Was the mama says section with those lyrics ever ascribed to or recorded together during the VDP/SMILE era? I don't think so. Unless I'm forgetting something. 

Umm...yes, actually. The aforementioned Do a Lot take for H&V was recorded in January '67. The height of the SMiLE Era, before VDP quit, but after the Cabin Essence incident. What does the CE fight have to do with it? Because it cemented the wedge between them. To someone like VDP, if Brian had had Mike rewrite his lyrics, *especially* after that, it wouldve been a great insult. I think he would've quit even sooner than he did, had this happened.

Give it up. You sound like Mike's lawyer trying to pretend WIBN was written by Mike over the phone in Japan. Utterly ridiculous.