How would BB history be different if Mike had received proper cowriting credits?

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Was the mama says section with those lyrics ever ascribed to or recorded together during the VDP/SMILE era? I don't think so. Unless I'm forgetting something.  

Umm...yes, actually. The aforementioned Do a Lot take for H&V was recorded in January '67. The height of the SMiLE Era, before VDP quit, but after the Cabin Essence incident. What does the CE fight have to do with it? Because it cemented the wedge between them. To someone like VDP, if Brian had had Mike rewrite his lyrics, *especially* after that, it wouldve been a great insult. I think he would've quit even sooner than he did, had this happened.

Give it up. You sound like Mike's lawyer trying to pretend WIBN was written by Mike over the phone in Japan. Utterly ridiculous.

Why all this feeling so sorry for people like VDP and Tony Asher who were given great opportunities by Brian Wilson and have assured themselves great (credit) and legacies because of Brian's kindness, while hating on another guy who was robbed of rightful credit? ......

And before someone says: "isn't Mike the biggest recipient or Brian's kindness"? ...... Keep in mind, like him or not, Mike helped found the band, wrote lyrics, sang amazingly, put in the fifty billion man-hours on stage bringing the music to the people.... You might not like the guy, but I don't think there's a single example of an audience walking out of a concert hall in disgust because they hate Mike.... No, the guy put in the work and Brian is glad.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Was the mama says section with those lyrics ever ascribed to or recorded together during the VDP/SMILE era? I don't think so. Unless I'm forgetting something. 

Umm...yes, actually. The aforementioned Do a Lot take for H&V was recorded in January '67. The height of the SMiLE Era, before VDP quit, but after the Cabin Essence incident. What does the CE fight have to do with it? Because it cemented the wedge between them. To someone like VDP, if Brian had had Mike rewrite his lyrics, *especially* after that, it wouldve been a great insult. I think he would've quit even sooner than he did, had this happened.

Give it up. You sound like Mike's lawyer trying to pretend WIBN was written by Mike over the phone in Japan. Utterly ridiculous.

Why all this feeling so sorry for people like VDP and Tony Asher who were given great opportunities by Brian Wilson and have assured themselves great (credit) and legacies because of Brian's kindness, while hating on another guy who was robbed of rightful credit? ......

With all do respect to you man, lighten up. No one's hating on Mike, I've conceded Brian screwed Mike on the credits. But, so what, you're saying that justifies crediting him for other people's work now? Are you nuts?

I sympathize with Tony because HE wrote WIBN, and to claim Mike did while Brian called him on his way to the bathroom is ludicrous and insulting to Tony. None of these slanderous claims would've resulted had Brian and Mike settled their dispute long ago without dragging the poor guy to court.

I'm not "sympathizing" with VDP, just stating the simple, undeniable fact that he wrote the VT chorus/Do a Lot section of H&V. You are completely wrong to suggest otherwise.

I get that you guys feel Mike doesn't get as much recognition as he deserves, but to try to take other people's work and claim Mike did it regardless of the hard evidence against you isn't doing you or him any favors. Please see reason here.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Was the mama says section with those lyrics ever ascribed to or recorded together during the VDP/SMILE era? I don't think so. Unless I'm forgetting something.  

Umm...yes, actually. The aforementioned Do a Lot take for H&V was recorded in January '67. The height of the SMiLE Era, before VDP quit, but after the Cabin Essence incident. What does the CE fight have to do with it? Because it cemented the wedge between them. To someone like VDP, if Brian had had Mike rewrite his lyrics, *especially* after that, it wouldve been a great insult. I think he would've quit even sooner than he did, had this happened.

Give it up. You sound like Mike's lawyer trying to pretend WIBN was written by Mike over the phone in Japan. Utterly ridiculous.

Why all this feeling so sorry for people like VDP and Tony Asher who were given great opportunities by Brian Wilson and have assured themselves great (credit) and legacies because of Brian's kindness, while hating on another guy who was robbed of rightful credit? ......

And before someone says: "isn't Mike the biggest recipient or Brian's kindness"? ...... Keep in mind, like him or not, Mike helped found the band, wrote lyrics, sang amazingly, put in the fifty billion man-hours on stage bringing the music to the people.... You might not like the guy, but I don't think there's a single example of an audience walking out of a concert hall in disgust because they hate Mike.... No, the guy put in the work and Brian is glad.

Another thing...you act like Brian handed out "legacies" to Asher/VDP out of the kindness of his heart. Are you suggesting neither man earned their praise with *their* hard work and brilliant lyrics? Are you for real?

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Was the mama says section with those lyrics ever ascribed to or recorded together during the VDP/SMILE era? I don't think so. Unless I'm forgetting something.  

Umm...yes, actually. The aforementioned Do a Lot take for H&V was recorded in January '67. The height of the SMiLE Era, before VDP quit, but after the Cabin Essence incident. What does the CE fight have to do with it? Because it cemented the wedge between them. To someone like VDP, if Brian had had Mike rewrite his lyrics, *especially* after that, it wouldve been a great insult. I think he would've quit even sooner than he did, had this happened.

Give it up. You sound like Mike's lawyer trying to pretend WIBN was written by Mike over the phone in Japan. Utterly ridiculous.

Why all this feeling so sorry for people like VDP and Tony Asher who were given great opportunities by Brian Wilson and have assured themselves great (credit) and legacies because of Brian's kindness, while hating on another guy who was robbed of rightful credit? ......

With all do respect to you man, lighten up. No one's hating on Mike, I've conceded Brian screwed Mike on the credits. But, so what, you're saying that justifies crediting him for other people's work now? Are you nuts?

I sympathize with Tony because HE wrote WIBN, and to claim Mike did while Brian called him on his way to the bathroom is ludicrous and insulting to Tony. None of these slanderous claims would've resulted had Brian and Mike settled their dispute long ago without dragging the poor guy to court.

I'm not "sympathizing" with VDP, just stating the simple, undeniable fact that he wrote the VT chorus/Do a Lot section of H&V. You are completely wrong to suggest otherwise.

I get that you guys feel Mike doesn't get as much recognition as he deserves, but to try to take other people's work and claim Mike did it regardless of the hard evidence against you isn't doing you or him any favors. Please see reason here.

I've made no mention of the "maybe Mike helped Brian write WIBN when Brian snuck phone calls to Japan while pretending to go to the bathroom" other than to call it ridiculous. But in the end Mike got credited for what he DID contribute to WIBN. BTW, Tony Asher did not write WIBN: Tony Asher, Brian Wilson, Mike Love wrote WIBN. Mike's contribution being the smallest (by a large margin), but still a valid contribution..... I take issue with folks belittling this contribution while with every other breath stating how much they dislike Mike and then trying to deny that this base dislike has nothing to do with their opinion.... Yes, Tony Asher and VDP did wonderful lyrical work, but they still encountered great fortune by being taken up by Brian based on little evidence of their abilities. It's hardly an insult to make mention of this.....

If I am contracted to do interior design for a family house, and I paint a wall solid blue, get paid and go about my way, and then after I'm gone someone in the family paints a little design in green at the bottom right corner, how would this be a grave insult to my work when I've been paid for my work and roundly praised in the interior design world for my work on the other 99% of the house? ......


As for Asher and Park's hard work! .... Yes, they worked hard and their work (Asher's especially) is sublime, but Mike's worked a lot harder and longer for The Beach Boys...... And to diss Mike while praising Asher for his "mature" lyrics is a bit silly too, unless you're pretending "Beach Boy's Today" and several other previous songs don't exist.

As for Mama Says: we don't know enough to draw any conclusions. You'd have to ask Brian and be mad at Brian.... Maybe he did it as a gift for screwing Mike out of other credits. Or maybe Mike contributed something vocal arrangement-wise that Brian thought warranted a cut. I dunno. It's all pure speculation and it would be silly to be raging at Mike about it anyhow.

I think my position here is one of reason..... Do I think Mike is just a wonderful guy like Brian and the other Beach Boys? I don't know the man, so I really have no opinion either way.... I've been in many a band where far worse has gone down than anything Mike's allegedly done, so I can't get too worked up about him other than his being a part of the awesomeness that is The Beach Boys: cheese and all.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

I've made no mention of the "maybe Mike helped Brian write WIBN when Brian snuck phone calls to Japan while pretending to go to the bathroom" other than to call it ridiculous. But in the end Mike got credited for what he DID contribute to WIBN. BTW, Tony Asher did not write WIBN: Tony Asher, Brian Wilson, Mike Love wrote WIBN.

No. Brian and Tony wrote WIBN. Mike added a line. Brian refused to give Mike credit for a bunch of songs, it went to court, Mike's legal team claimed he was intitled to a credit for that line, and a jury agreed. But Mike wasn't involved in the actual writing process. Whether he deserves that credit or not is debatable, personally I don't think he does.

I take issue with folks belittling this contribution while with every other breath stating how much they dislike Mike and then trying to deny that this base dislike has nothing to do with their opinion....

Are you referring to me? Because if so...what planet are you on? Belittling? I'm calling it what it is. An ad lib. I'm not saying how much I dislike Mike with every breath. I think I've offered a pretty fair view of him in this and other threads. It's *you* who is letting your "base like" of him cloud your opinion. The lengths you'll go to defend him are borderline insane. I'm a big fan of Brian but even I can admit his faults--like screwing Mike out of credits for decades. That's an awful thing to do.

Yes, Tony Asher and VDP did wonderful lyrical work, but they still encountered great fortune by being taken up by Brian based on little evidence of their abilities. It's hardly an insult to make mention of this.....

And everything you just said more than applies to Mike Love as well. But your obsessive apologism on his behalf means you cannot or will not admit that. And I'm sure in your twisted view I'm 'raging' on him for bringing up this fact.

If I am contracted to do interior design for a family house, and I paint a wall solid blue, get paid and go about my way, and then after I'm gone someone in the family paints a little design in green at the bottom right corner, how would this be a grave insult to my work when I've been paid for my work and roundly praised in the interior design world for my work on the other 99% of the house? ......

The insult would be if whoever painted green in the corner claimed equal credit for the entire house.

As for Asher and Park's hard work! .... Yes, they worked hard and their work (Asher's especially) is sublime, but Mike's worked a lot harder and longer for The Beach Boys...... And to diss Mike while praising Asher for his "mature" lyrics is a bit silly too, unless you're pretending "Beach Boy's Today" and several other previous songs don't exist.

Seriously, you need to stop taking every minor criticism of Mike so personally. You need to realize not everyone is a "hater" for not sharing your exact opinions. And you need to realize that just because Mike "worked a lot harder" that doesn't mean I can't praise Asher or VDP, or that I owe Mike a compliment for every time I mention my admiration for SMiLE/Pet Sounds. You're coming off as very immature with this attitude. Mature was for lack of a better term. That's why I put it in quotes. Regardless, PS's lyrics are generally considered "richer/denser/more complex" than the usal BB faire.

As for Mama Says: we don't know enough to draw any conclusions. You'd have to ask Brian and be mad at Brian.... Maybe he did it as a gift for screwing Mike out of other credits. Or maybe Mike contributed something vocal arrangement-wise that Brian thought warranted a cut. I dunno. It's all pure speculation and it would be silly to be raging at Mike about it anyhow.

Jesus Christ, dude...I am not, nor have I ever "raged" at Mike. You need thicker skin, and perhaps a new idol. Mama Says was 100% written by VDP. It has its roots in H&V and VT, which are credited to Brian/Van. It was recorded in the SMiLE Era before Van quit. It is one of dozens of recycled bits from the SMiLE Era. The only thing we don't know is why VDP wasn't credited for it. Now, if either of the unsubstantiated theories you present here are true, then that explains the credit. But its absolutly ludicrous to insinuate Mike wrote the actual chant. You are willfully ignoring FACTS and offering only heresay in response. It's completely false for you to imply that we don't know. The proof is in the SMiLE Sessions themselves, the sessionography and the fact that Mike uncharacteristically did not seek credit for VT proper in 1994 or 2003 or 2011 if he really did pen such an integral part to it.

If we call the hardcore "Brian is perfect!" fans Brianistas then there ought to be a similar term for you and Cam because I've never seen such blind, unwavering devotion to a person in my life. Like whoever you want, I don't care. But when you make up a crazy lie like Mike writing SMiLE material, and refuse to back off in the face of cold hard evidence, that's crossing a line.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Adding a line to a song that is recorded/released with that line (two lines actually) means you co-wrote the song.... Sorry man.

As for my "we don't know enough" regarding Mama Says mean't we don't know enough regarding why Mike got a percentage for the lyrics.

And I need to get thicker skin???

BTW, I only defend Mike's contribution to WIBN because (aside from being, ummm, on the released record and sheet music) the song would have otherwise gone on for 30 seconds after Brian sings "wouldn't it be nice" with no more vocals, and also: Mike's "goodnight baby! Sleep tight baby" aren't just repeats of other parts of the song only with different lyrics, but have a distinct melody and meter all their own. Like Mike or not, this coda is a part of the song! If you don't want someone getting credit for such a contribution because you do not like them as a person, fair enough, but at least admit it.

[CarlTheVoice]

In my opinion, 'Runnersdialzero' had it spot on in their first response. It's quite tiring to hear all this negativity about just one member of the band. There's always two sides to a story. I know some will disagree but Mike is doing a lot to keep the Beach Boys' music alive and bring it to new audiences.

[Iron Horse-Apples]

Whenever there is the slightest hint of Mike criticism, he is there, upholding the flames of truth!

When everyone else has got bored of the same pointless, cyclic argument, he is there, with his voice of reason!

Whenever  contrary opinion rears it's ugly head, he unleashes his army of strawmen and obliterates the haters.

Ladies and gentlemen, I give you......Super Pinder!!

Good-night - Mike hate
Sleep-tight  - Mike hate
No - o - o - more myst-ry
Re-write hist-ry

[Niko]

Like Mike or not, this coda is a part of the song! If you don't want someone getting credit for such a contribution because you do not like them as a person, fair enough, but at least admit it.

My issue with Mike getting a credit on the song is how small his part it is. Fans know that Mike came up with that part, but that was all he added to the song. Give credit where credit is due, but being listed as one of the songs writers for such a minor contribution can be seen as kind of a stretch.

But there really is no middle ground, you're either credited as a writer or you're not so I dunno...I've never really made up my mind on whether or not he deserves the credit for this song or not. Mike did end up with a writers credit in the end though, even if the the 'Brian was on the telephone to me in the bathroom' defense was completely ridiculous.

[SMiLE Brian]

Pinder loves ALL the BBs since he grew up in Hawthorne, CA.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Like Mike or not, this coda is a part of the song! If you don't want someone getting credit for such a contribution because you do not like them as a person, fair enough, but at least admit it.

My issue with Mike getting a credit on the song is how small his part it is. Fans know that Mike came up with that part, but that was all he added to the song. Give credit where credit is due, but being listed as one of the songs writers for such a minor contribution can be seen as kind of a stretch.

But there really is no middle ground, you're either credited as a writer or you're not so I dunno...I've never really made up my mind on whether or not he deserves the credit for this song or not. Mike did end up with a writers credit in the end though, even if the the 'Brian was on the telephone to me in the bathroom' defense was completely ridiculous.

How could someone not be deserving of credit for something we KNOW they contributed? ... It's the last 30 seconds of the song, it is two lines of lyric repeated twice each with a vocal melody unique from the rest of the song! Not worthy of credit???

Like I've asked before: was anyone shredding that part of the song when we all though it was Asher's contribution? .... A resounding "no"

I'd say such logic would better apply to something like Dierdre where all we know is Brian threw in a few words ("my friend Bob, he has a job") that Bruce didn't even use. We really have no idea if anything "Brian" even made the cut, yet he is listed as co-writer and we can somehow all live with it....

[Niko]

Indeed, we do know how much Mike contributed. The main issue, in my mind, is whether or not Mike deserved a writing credit for his contribution. To have a writing credit on WIBN means he co-wrote the song. Does adding 2 lines to the fade out of a song that's entire 'construction', from the melody to the lyrics to the instrumentation, had been done entirely by two other people, count as co-writing it? I'm not saying he doesn't deserve credit, just that it is a dilemma that really boils down to a matter of opinion.

But in the case of Deirdre, we don't know how much Brian contributed. He could have done all of the backing track, or absolutely nothing. Someone should ask Bruce.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Adding a line to a song that is recorded/released with that line (two lines actually) means you co-wrote the song.... Sorry man.

Debatable. Regardless, Mike has his credit so take pride in that. But you have no right to get so defensive when others point out how small his contribution was. Unless you believe every ad lib ever deserves a writing credit, you can't blame us "haters" for being somewhat skeptical whether his authorship credit is truly warranted. Brian and Tony certainly didn't think it was.

As for my "we don't know enough" regarding Mama Says mean't we don't know enough regarding why Mike got a percentage for the lyrics.

Any % Mike got for Mama Says is too much. Those are VDP's lyrics as far as anyone can say. Unless some new hard evidence arises that proves otherwise. You don't get a lyrics credit for saying "We should sing it normal, then slow, then fast!" For you and Cam to go so far as to suggest that Mike actually wrote them is nonsense. It's an insult to Van Dyke, his work, and our intelligence for you to suggest that. This whole thread is about how terrible Brian was at crediting the right people for their stuff. Why is it so hard to accept that Mama Says was a similar mistake? Oh right, because Mike is infallible and almighty in your eyes. I'm sure he wrote all the SMiLE lyrics in secret, right?

And I need to get thicker skin???

Yes. Absolutely you do. Since I started posting in this thread you've accused me of raging, hating and attacking Mike Love for no justified reason. Looking at other threads this seems to be your thing. It's really bizarre and annoying.

BTW, I only defend Mike's contribution to WIBN because (aside from being, ummm, on the released record and sheet music) the song would have otherwise gone on for 30 seconds after Brian sings "wouldn't it be nice" with no more vocals, and also: Mike's "goodnight baby! Sleep tight baby" aren't just repeats of other parts of the song only with different lyrics, but have a distinct melody and meter all their own. Like Mike or not, this coda is a part of the song! If you don't want someone getting credit for such a contribution because you do not like them as a person, fair enough, but at least admit it.

Every improv to every song is on the record. Not every one is deserving of equal credit to the proper authors. I'm not saying this because I hate Mike. I can't stress this enough--I *don't* hate Mike. I don't even know him. I just don't making pathetic excuses for everything he does as you do. And I'm not playing favorites--I call Brian on his bullsh!t too. I've said numerous times here that not giving Mike credit for his songs all these years was a really awful, inexcusable thing to do. Admit what? That I'm not as unhealthily devoted to someone as you? Alright, you got me.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Indeed, we do know how much Mike contributed. The main issue, in my mind, is whether or not Mike deserved a writing credit for his contribution. To have a writing credit on WIBN means he co-wrote the song. Does adding 2 lines to the fade out of a song that's entire 'construction', from the melody to the lyrics to the instrumentation, had been done entirely by two other people, count as co-writing it? I'm not saying he doesn't deserve credit, just that it is a dilemma that really boils down to a matter of opinion.

But in the case of Deirdre, we don't know how much Brian contributed. He could have done all of the backing track, or absolutely nothing. Someone should ask Bruce.

His name on the credits means nothing other than that he contributed to the song's released composition and nothing more. It is not a sentence saying "Mike Love sat down and participated in writing this song with Brian Wilson and Tony Asher. It simply means he contributed. Which we know he did.

As for being "unhealthily devoted" to Mike: for me, this isn't even about Mike but about nitpicking someone's contribution to something to death. As a musician, I've seen how ugly this type of thing can be and I've seen many a person denied proper credit due to such nitpicking ( usually to the good fortune of someone else) ... If I am a Mike fan, it's simply because he ....... is one of THE BEACH BOYS!

[Blue2013]

How would Beach Boys history be different if all of Brian's proper cowriting credits were given to Mike?
Mike Love would be considered the true genius of the band.

If Mike Love was credited properly, while he wouldn't be labeled a genius, he would be held in higher esteem.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Indeed, we do know how much Mike contributed. The main issue, in my mind, is whether or not Mike deserved a writing credit for his contribution. To have a writing credit on WIBN means he co-wrote the song. Does adding 2 lines to the fade out of a song that's entire 'construction', from the melody to the lyrics to the instrumentation, had been done entirely by two other people, count as co-writing it? I'm not saying he doesn't deserve credit, just that it is a dilemma that really boils down to a matter of opinion.

But in the case of Deirdre, we don't know how much Brian contributed. He could have done all of the backing track, or absolutely nothing. Someone should ask Bruce.

His name on the credits means nothing other than that he contributed to the song's released composition and nothing more. It is not a sentence saying "Mike Love sat down and participated in writing this song with Brian Wilson and Tony Asher. It simply means he contributed. Which we know he did.

So lets add every Beach Boy, every Wrecking Crew member and anybody whose feedback Brian sought out to the authorship list for every song they ever did. Hey, they all contributed, right?

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Indeed, we do know how much Mike contributed. The main issue, in my mind, is whether or not Mike deserved a writing credit for his contribution. To have a writing credit on WIBN means he co-wrote the song. Does adding 2 lines to the fade out of a song that's entire 'construction', from the melody to the lyrics to the instrumentation, had been done entirely by two other people, count as co-writing it? I'm not saying he doesn't deserve credit, just that it is a dilemma that really boils down to a matter of opinion.

But in the case of Deirdre, we don't know how much Brian contributed. He could have done all of the backing track, or absolutely nothing. Someone should ask Bruce.

His name on the credits means nothing other than that he contributed to the song's released composition and nothing more. It is not a sentence saying "Mike Love sat down and participated in writing this song with Brian Wilson and Tony Asher. It simply means he contributed. Which we know he did.

So lets add every Beach Boy, every Wrecking Crew member and anybody whose feedback Brian sought out to the authorship list for every song they ever did. Hey, they all contributed, right?

If any of those folks believe they deserve credit, they are free to pursue their case.

Mike's "feedback " is a part of the song's composition and is there in lyrical and melodic form and people have been singing along to the words in question for almost 50 years.... I think we have an overly romantic and sanctified vision of what the songwriting process is.

Have you ever written a song? Either alone or in collaboration?

[Robbie Mac]

Indeed, we do know how much Mike contributed. The main issue, in my mind, is whether or not Mike deserved a writing credit for his contribution. To have a writing credit on WIBN means he co-wrote the song. Does adding 2 lines to the fade out of a song that's entire 'construction', from the melody to the lyrics to the instrumentation, had been done entirely by two other people, count as co-writing it? I'm not saying he doesn't deserve credit, just that it is a dilemma that really boils down to a matter of opinion.

But in the case of Deirdre, we don't know how much Brian contributed. He could have done all of the backing track, or absolutely nothing. Someone should ask Bruce.

His name on the credits means nothing other than that he contributed to the song's released composition and nothing more. It is not a sentence saying "Mike Love sat down and participated in writing this song with Brian Wilson and Tony Asher. It simply means he contributed. Which we know he did.

So lets add every Beach Boy, every Wrecking Crew member and anybody whose feedback Brian sought out to the authorship list for every song they ever did. Hey, they all contributed, right?

That is how songwriting credits are given these days, which is why you will see several people sharing writing credits on current hits.

[Ron]

So then we all agree, that Brian f***ed Mike out of credits for 30 songs, then Mike f***ed Brian out of half a credit on 1 song in retaliation?

I'm coo with that.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

So then we all agree, that Brian f***ed Mike out of credits for 30 songs, then Mike f***ed Brian out of half a credit on 1 song in retaliation?

I'm coo with that.

No: Mike simply got credit for what he contributed.

[bgas]

Indeed, we do know how much Mike contributed. The main issue, in my mind, is whether or not Mike deserved a writing credit for his contribution. To have a writing credit on WIBN means he co-wrote the song. Does adding 2 lines to the fade out of a song that's entire 'construction', from the melody to the lyrics to the instrumentation, had been done entirely by two other people, count as co-writing it? I'm not saying he doesn't deserve credit, just that it is a dilemma that really boils down to a matter of opinion.

But in the case of Deirdre, we don't know how much Brian contributed. He could have done all of the backing track, or absolutely nothing. Someone should ask Bruce.

His name on the credits means nothing other than that he contributed to the song's released composition and nothing more. It is not a sentence saying "Mike Love sat down and participated in writing this song with Brian Wilson and Tony Asher. It simply means he contributed. Which we know he did.

So lets add every Beach Boy, every Wrecking Crew member and anybody whose feedback Brian sought out to the authorship list for every song they ever did. Hey, they all contributed, right?

If any of those folks believe they deserve credit, they are free to pursue their case.

Mike's seeking "feedback " is a part of the song's composition and is there in lyrical and melodic form and people have been singing along to the words in question for almost 50 years.... I think we have an overly romantic and sanctified vision of what the songwriting process is.

Have you ever written a song? Either alone or in collaboration?

 Do we really know Mike ALSO created the melody for his two lines?   It seems much  more likely Brian added the music to go with Mike's lyrics

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Indeed, we do know how much Mike contributed. The main issue, in my mind, is whether or not Mike deserved a writing credit for his contribution. To have a writing credit on WIBN means he co-wrote the song. Does adding 2 lines to the fade out of a song that's entire 'construction', from the melody to the lyrics to the instrumentation, had been done entirely by two other people, count as co-writing it? I'm not saying he doesn't deserve credit, just that it is a dilemma that really boils down to a matter of opinion.

But in the case of Deirdre, we don't know how much Brian contributed. He could have done all of the backing track, or absolutely nothing. Someone should ask Bruce.

His name on the credits means nothing other than that he contributed to the song's released composition and nothing more. It is not a sentence saying "Mike Love sat down and participated in writing this song with Brian Wilson and Tony Asher. It simply means he contributed. Which we know he did.

So lets add every Beach Boy, every Wrecking Crew member and anybody whose feedback Brian sought out to the authorship list for every song they ever did. Hey, they all contributed, right?

If any of those folks believe they deserve credit, they are free to pursue their case.

Mike's seeking "feedback " is a part of the song's composition and is there in lyrical and melodic form and people have been singing along to the words in question for almost 50 years.... I think we have an overly romantic and sanctified vision of what the songwriting process is.

Have you ever written a song? Either alone or in collaboration?

 Do we really know Mike ALSO created the melody for his two lines?   It seems much  more likely Brian added the music to go with Mike's lyrics

If it really was a tossed-off ad-lib by Mike at the vocal session, as it's been repeatedly called here, then Mike most likely is to thank for the melody.

[guitarfool2002]

I said my peace earlier here, probably spent too much time and too many words already in this discussion, but I see this heading somewhere and wanted to offer a "time out" of sorts.

Some of the issues of collaborations and credits and ad-libs are the same ones I took part in earlier, yet they keep coming around to the same points. In that sense, there are some cold, hard facts about the way things work in these cases in the music world versus the business/legal world, and they can exist despite the discrepancies depending on who is involved and especially in some cases the relative success or lack of success of the artists in the various agreements.

It may take more than one post, but here is one cold hard fact about many of these cases:

They are handled, and I'd argue can only be handled, on a case-by-case basis. There is no template in place where the facts and details can be put into a formula and analyzed then determined into a fixed outcome. It needs to be looked at individually, because the creative process itself is unique for each creative interest and very few think or act alike in that process. They may follow patterns, there may be legal and business definitions, but each song is created differently.

So we can't say "this is the way songwriting works" as a definitive statement to award credit if it's being sought in court, therefore each case *must* be looked at individually.

Another perhaps colder, harder fact:

The issue of credit only becomes an issue if one of the parties involved pursues it, and makes it an issue for the legal system rather than keeping it within the band or within that party's "organization".

And that is fact. Consider there could be potentially hundreds of thousands of legal claims made for songs even in the last 20 years based on people pitching in ideas which became elements of the "hit version" of the song which were done *after the fact*, which means after the principal songwriter(s) had the song sketched out.

If a band or artist is hot, and the money and fame are flowing in and things are going well...and if there are other agreements and contracts in place within those organizations...the chances for claims like this being filed are slim-to-none.

Which means, if you look back at a few of these which have been won, how many of them happen when times are good for that band or artist? Do we see the drummer for a successful band filing a claim for something he/she feels they wrote for a song as that band is hot and in demand commercially and artistically?

Or are these cases more often filed years and decades after the fact, and sometimes involving members who were either fired, quit in disgust or over personality clash issues, or involving bands or artists that have broken up?

And note too that in most cases I'm aware of, they're not filing for the satisfaction of getting that credit, they're filing for a work or for a body of work that has made money and for which the potential to claim some of that money is greater. You rarely see a co-writer or musician filing a claim for artistic reasons, where they'd spend a large sum of money to reclaim their rightful place in history as a creative contributor to a specific song. They simply don't spend potentially hundreds of thousands to hire a legal team to win what amounts to bragging rights, or to ensure a legacy.

They file for *money*, plain and simple. And the songs usually brought into court are successful high-earning songs with future earning potential. You don't see these cases being filed unless a song or artist has made money, and then it's off to the races.

I can list cases I know personally, from people I know personally, as happened in the recent years from people who produced and worked with an artist who would soon become a popular "hit" artist, and felt that they got left out of the financial windfall that followed. No specifics, just take my word for it...these cases are very common in modern times, moreso than the songwriting cases. A guy running a studio takes on a new artist, works up some tracks, contributes a shitload of music and songwriting ideas to a project...the project takes off, a "big label" gets involved, a "record deal" is signed, and that producer gets left in the dust with a hard drive full of tracks.

Again, it still happens...but back to songwriting...

How many claims of credit are filed on songs before they're proven to be moneymakers, or before they have actually made money?

Again, they're not claiming these things for history or legacy or even issues of "fairness" necessarily, they're claiming them for money, and that's how the legal teams work. They may suggest the case is about "righting a wrong" to bring in the emotional aspect in front of a judge or jury, which is what lawyers do in all cases, but they're in it to get paid their share of the outcome just the same.

That was longer than I had hoped...but consider claims are not filed when a band is "hot" or when all members are actively performing or getting along, claims are not filed for the reason of getting credit for credit's sake or for historical purposes, and claims are not filed for songs that have not or are not generating considerable profits.

More to come on specifically the 1989 Brian case against Irving and the subsequent Mike case in 1992.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

I said my peace earlier here, probably spent too much time and too many words already in this discussion, but I see this heading somewhere and wanted to offer a "time out" of sorts.

Some of the issues of collaborations and credits and ad-libs are the same ones I took part in earlier, yet they keep coming around to the same points. In that sense, there are some cold, hard facts about the way things work in these cases in the music world versus the business/legal world, and they can exist despite the discrepancies depending on who is involved and especially in some cases the relative success or lack of success of the artists in the various agreements.

It may take more than one post, but here is one cold hard fact about many of these cases:

They are handled, and I'd argue can only be handled, on a case-by-case basis. There is no template in place where the facts and details can be put into a formula and analyzed then determined into a fixed outcome. It needs to be looked at individually, because the creative process itself is unique for each creative interest and very few think or act alike in that process. They may follow patterns, there may be legal and business definitions, but each song is created differently.

So we can't say "this is the way songwriting works" as a definitive statement to award credit if it's being sought in court, therefore each case *must* be looked at individually.

Another perhaps colder, harder fact:

The issue of credit only becomes an issue if one of the parties involved pursues it, and makes it an issue for the legal system rather than keeping it within the band or within that party's "organization".

And that is fact. Consider there could be potentially hundreds of thousands of legal claims made for songs even in the last 20 years based on people pitching in ideas which became elements of the "hit version" of the song which were done *after the fact*, which means after the principal songwriter(s) had the song sketched out.

If a band or artist is hot, and the money and fame are flowing in and things are going well...and if there are other agreements and contracts in place within those organizations...the chances for claims like this being filed are slim-to-none.

Which means, if you look back at a few of these which have been won, how many of them happen when times are good for that band or artist? Do we see the drummer for a successful band filing a claim for something he/she feels they wrote for a song as that band is hot and in demand commercially and artistically?

Or are these cases more often filed years and decades after the fact, and sometimes involving members who were either fired, quit in disgust or over personality clash issues, or involving bands or artists that have broken up?

And note too that in most cases I'm aware of, they're not filing for the satisfaction of getting that credit, they're filing for a work or for a body of work that has made money and for which the potential to claim some of that money is greater. You rarely see a co-writer or musician filing a claim for artistic reasons, where they'd spend a large sum of money to reclaim their rightful place in history as a creative contributor to a specific song. They simply don't spend potentially hundreds of thousands to hire a legal team to win what amounts to bragging rights, or to ensure a legacy.

They file for *money*, plain and simple. And the songs usually brought into court are successful high-earning songs with future earning potential. You don't see these cases being filed unless a song or artist has made money, and then it's off to the races.

I can list cases I know personally, from people I know personally, as happened in the recent years from people who produced and worked with an artist who would soon become a popular "hit" artist, and felt that they got left out of the financial windfall that followed. No specifics, just take my word for it...these cases are very common in modern times, moreso than the songwriting cases. A guy running a studio takes on a new artist, works up some tracks, contributes a shitload of music and songwriting ideas to a project...the project takes off, a "big label" gets involved, a "record deal" is signed, and that producer gets left in the dust with a hard drive full of tracks.

Again, it still happens...but back to songwriting...

How many claims of credit are filed on songs before they're proven to be moneymakers, or before they have actually made money?

Again, they're not claiming these things for history or legacy or even issues of "fairness" necessarily, they're claiming them for money, and that's how the legal teams work. They may suggest the case is about "righting a wrong" to bring in the emotional aspect in front of a judge or jury, which is what lawyers do in all cases, but they're in it to get paid their share of the outcome just the same.

That was longer than I had hoped...but consider claims are not filed when a band is "hot" or when all members are actively performing or getting along, claims are not filed for the reason of getting credit for credit's sake or for historical purposes, and claims are not filed for songs that have not or are not generating considerable profits.

More to come on specifically the 1989 Brian case against Irving and the subsequent Mike case in 1992.

Pride and the pursuit of $$$ go happily hand in hand. Quite arrogant to state that people only seek credit for monetary reasons.... I know many people who have sought such for both reasons. In fact, I've sought such credit myself knowing full well I'd likely not see a single dollar.

[guitarfool2002]

The fact, however it might disagree with opinions or however arrogant it might be perceived, is that cases which go into the legal system up to a judge or jury are not being funded on the basis of pride or righting a wrong, they're filed for money and potential to make more money. Interpersonal squabbles and debates within bands or among artists over such credits happen every minute of every day, but the costs involved with filing a legal case are so great that much of that remains interpersonal, and very rarely if ever are these cases filed over songs that have not or will not generate enough income to cover the costs.

Have there been some music-related legal claims that have gone to the courts based solely on righting a wrong without financial interest? Perhaps. But consider how many of these cases which have been heard by and decided in a court of law have come from a band or group that is actively working together or actively enjoying success, or how many are filed when that artist is actively signed into any kind of a contractual agreement that is paying off due to the commercial success or popularity of that venture. Most of the notable cases involving band members or partners come after that partnership has been dissolved, after a member or members have quit or been forced out, or after the songs or works in question have already made money for that partnership or organization.