How would BB history be different if Mike had received proper cowriting credits?

[Cam Mott]

Was the mama says section with those lyrics ever ascribed to or recorded together during the VDP/SMILE era? I don't think so. Unless I'm forgetting something. 

Umm...yes, actually. The aforementioned Do a Lot take for H&V was recorded in January '67. The height of the SMiLE Era, before VDP quit, but after the Cabin Essence incident. What does the CE fight have to do with it? Because it cemented the wedge between them. To someone like VDP, if Brian had had Mike rewrite his lyrics, *especially* after that, it wouldve been a great insult. I think he would've quit even sooner than he did, had this happened.

Give it up. You sound like Mike's lawyer trying to pretend WIBN was written by Mike over the phone in Japan. Utterly ridiculous.

Well I don't share your certainty that VDP wrote those lyrics and that Mike can't be the author. Someone should ask Parks, his email address used to be on his website.

In H&V this was January '67 right? Parks says he was out after Fire in November and then I don't believe there is any evidence of him again until the lastest of February. H&V was going through overhaul through December and January and on through February. Mike is established as a guy who can write a lyric in the hallway of the studio. The April Veg is in April after Parks has left all together. It's not farfetched at all. So far there is no evidence that Parks wrote those lyrics but there is the evidence that Mike actually has the credit. Unless there is something I am over looking, which is likely, why are we twisting ourselves in knots when the publishing tells the story? After all the history is Mike didn't get unduly credited, he got unjustly uncredited.

But we've spent 15 pages worth of posts discussing how inaccurate the publishing is. History is Brian going the path of least resistance regarding this stuff. It was easier to keep Mike off the early hits rather than rock the boat. And it was easier to just throw Mike's name on Mama Says than involve Van Dyke in it over a one minute chant tagged onto WH.

I really doubt Mike would just let it be if VT as we now know it used his lyrics for the chorus and he was yet again uncredited for it. In all the interviews about SMiLE and his dislike for the lyrics, why has he never brought up the fact that he wrote this piece? He likes to brag about his accomplishments. Being able to say "I hated the lyrics. I wrote some for VT that I think better suited that song, and had Brian allowed me to, I could've written some great stuff for the other tracks too." It's just not in Mike's character to keep quiet about something like this.

And just because it was recorded in Jan 67 doesn't mean it was written then. It was probably written earlier. To claim now that it was actually penned by Mike in the hallway that day is unlikely. Like, WIBN over the phone from Japan level unlikely.

That's my case for why I think it very likely could have been written by Mike just as the publishing says and the only thing close to evidence so far is the publishing in favor of Mike. E-mail VDP, maybe he remembers writing it.

We ARE talking about how the publishing can be wrong but, as I pointed out, so far it does not go in Mike's favor and this does which that history makes it stronger as evidence for Mike as the author.

Ythe only evidence for your case is the publishing, which we all agree is faulty. Everything else, the audio recordings, session listings, circumstancial evidence (Mike not claiming co-authorship of VT or mentioning this contribution to SMiLE to defend against accusations that he killed it--"I didn't hate SMiLE, I even wrote some lyrics for it!") points to this being just another mistake in the publishing. Occam's Razor. Whether you personally believe your argument or not is irrelevant to me, but you're making a pretty huge claim here and you had better be able to back it up. So far, you have not.

I'm not gonna waste VDP's time asking him to defend his lyrics against such a baseless accusation. I think to even mention this theory to him would be an insult. Plus, I don't have his email. Do it yourself, if you're so inclined.

OK, we will continue to disagree.

[Sheriff John Stone]

One has to wonder, if the crediting lawsuit would have happened at another point in the lifespan of the band - say, 2004 just after BWPS came out - would Mike have gone after Brian more viciously legally-speaking?

It's interesting that the Mojo article posted a few pages back where Mike is going easy on Brian came out in 2004, around the time of the BWPS hype. It appeared to me that Mike was still in the "kiss the ass of Brian Wilson because he is still the key" mode, which also entails being sympathetic to Brian's problems. I think Mike still wanted to work with Brian on any level at that time, and was cutting him some slack. Obviously that changed.

A quick opinion on the WIBN credit, and I'm not making it to excuse Mike Love....I think (speculate?) that when Mike and his lawyers met to develop a strategy for the songwriting credit case, Mike was probably instructed by his attorneys to include any and every song that he (Mike) contributed to, no matter how small the contribution. Then they could throw them all against a wall and see which ones stick - with the judge. It's also a way of being honest because Mike did contribute SOMETHING, but leaving it to a neutral party to determine if credit is due.

[Sam_BFC]

Roger Christian, Tony Asher, Van Dyke Parks, and Jack Reiley are lucky men. Apparently Brian's "shakiness", mental illness, and auditory illusions that kept him from correcting songwriting credits were only present when it applied to Mike Love.

My apologies if this has been mentioned and I missed it:
Wasn't VDP omitted from some credits he was due on Smiley Smile?  It was brought up with Brian and Melinda during the BWPS era I believe.

[CenturyDeprived]

One has to wonder, if the crediting lawsuit would have happened at another point in the lifespan of the band - say, 2004 just after BWPS came out - would Mike have gone after Brian more viciously legally-speaking?

It's interesting that the Mojo article posted a few pages back where Mike is going easy on Brian came out in 2004, around the time of the BWPS hype. It appeared to me that Mike was still in the "kiss the ass of Brian Wilson because he is still the key" mode, which also entails being sympathetic to Brian's problems. I think Mike still wanted to work with Brian on any level at that time, and was cutting him some slack. Obviously that changed.

A quick opinion on the WIBN credit, and I'm not making it to excuse Mike Love....I think (speculate?) that when Mike and his lawyers met to develop a strategy for the songwriting credit case, Mike was probably instructed by his attorneys to include any and every song that he (Mike) contributed to, no matter how small the contribution. Then they could throw them all against a wall and see which ones stick - with the judge. It's also a way of being honest because Mike did contribute SOMETHING, but leaving it to a neutral party to determine if credit is due.

I think this all seems quite likely.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Roger Christian, Tony Asher, Van Dyke Parks, and Jack Reiley are lucky men. Apparently Brian's "shakiness", mental illness, and auditory illusions that kept him from correcting songwriting credits were only present when it applied to Mike Love.

My apologies if this has been mentioned and I missed it:
Wasn't VDP omitted from some credits he was due on Smiley Smile?  It was brought up with Brian and Melinda during the BWPS era I believe.

I'd argue this was the case with Mama Says on Wild Honey.


And Cam, this is YOUR wild, baseless theory. It's up to you to prove it. You email VDP. I will not do your grunt work for you, and with your history I bet even if VDP confirmed what everyone but you already knows, you'd still deny it.

[Sheriff John Stone]

Roger Christian, Tony Asher, Van Dyke Parks, and Jack Reiley are lucky men. Apparently Brian's "shakiness", mental illness, and auditory illusions that kept him from correcting songwriting credits were only present when it applied to Mike Love.

My apologies if this has been mentioned and I missed it:
Wasn't VDP omitted from some credits he was due on Smiley Smile?  It was brought up with Brian and Melinda during the BWPS era I believe.

I'm not familiar with the interview you alluded to, but the songs on Smiley Smile that Van Dyke Parks is NOT credited on are:

- "Good Vibrations"
- "With Me Tonight"
- "Whistle In"
- "Wind Chimes"
- "Fall Breaks And Back To Winter"
- "Little Pad"
- "Gettin' Hungry"

I don't know, did VDP write any of the lyrics on those songs?

[CenturyDeprived]

Roger Christian, Tony Asher, Van Dyke Parks, and Jack Reiley are lucky men. Apparently Brian's "shakiness", mental illness, and auditory illusions that kept him from correcting songwriting credits were only present when it applied to Mike Love.

My apologies if this has been mentioned and I missed it:
Wasn't VDP omitted from some credits he was due on Smiley Smile?  It was brought up with Brian and Melinda during the BWPS era I believe.

I'm not familiar with the interview you alluded to, but the songs on Smiley Smile that Van Dyke Parks is NOT credited on are:

- "Good Vibrations"
- "With Me Tonight"
- "Whistle In"
- "Wind Chimes"
- "Fall Breaks And Back To Winter"
- "Little Pad"
- "Gettin' Hungry"

I don't know, did VDP write any of the lyrics on those songs?

In the event that VDP co-wrote lyrics for "Gettin' Hungry", I'd love to see the awkward 7-inch cover art for the single, which would have probably pasted his face in there, along with the incorrect pic of Carl...

And would the single have been credited as "Brian and Mike and Van Dyke"? 

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

New topic should be "Should VDP be awarded songwriting credit, percentage for Kokomo"?

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

New topic should be "Should VDP be awarded songwriting credit, percentage for Kokomo"?

So it's ok for Mike to get equal credit for a one line improv but VDP shouldnt get any for the SMiLE fragments he and Brian collaborated on? Why not just drop all pretense of objectivity and admit you're his unofficial cheerleader already? Seriously, the stuff you and Cam are saying in this and other threads is so biased it's laughable. 

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

New topic should be "Should VDP be awarded songwriting credit, percentage for Kokomo"?

So it's ok for Mike to get equal credit for a one line improv but VDP shouldnt get any for the SMiLE fragments he and Brian collaborated on? Why not just drop all pretense of objectivity and admit you're his unofficial cheerleader already? Seriously, the stuff you and Cam are saying in this and other threads is so biased it's laughable.  

Did I say anything to that effect? No I have not!

If VDP wrote the words to Mama Says or whatever else, and Mike wrote no lyrics, then hell-no: Mike doesn't deserve credit! But we don't exactly know the why's or how's yet.

The Kokomo thing is a joke regarding the fact that VDP plays accordion on the track.

Once again: Mike's WIBN contribution being  "insignificant" because it was a "one line improv" (two lines actually) is merely your opinion (and an opinion a jury disagreed with). His words and vocal regarding this contribution made the final cut and is forever on the amazing track. THAT is fact, not opinion. Credit is not unjust. Get over it.

I hardly think my opinion or Cam's have much to do with Mike.... YOUR opinions seem to have everything to do with him though ...... Be it Mike or anyone else: when someone tries to deride their contributions to something, and this derision rings false, I'll stand up for whoever it is.

[Cam Mott]

Roger Christian, Tony Asher, Van Dyke Parks, and Jack Reiley are lucky men. Apparently Brian's "shakiness", mental illness, and auditory illusions that kept him from correcting songwriting credits were only present when it applied to Mike Love.

My apologies if this has been mentioned and I missed it:
Wasn't VDP omitted from some credits he was due on Smiley Smile?  It was brought up with Brian and Melinda during the BWPS era I believe.

I'd argue this was the case with Mama Says on Wild Honey.


And Cam, this is YOUR wild, baseless theory. It's up to you to prove it. You email VDP. I will not do your grunt work for you, and with your history I bet even if VDP confirmed what everyone but you already knows, you'd still deny it.

As opposed to your baseless theory. You're the one who thinks he has to be the author, I'm not gonna do your grunt work. I ready to continue to disagree, if somebody comes up with something more definitive than the publishing (and your baseless theories) we can have another go at it.

[smilethebeachboysloveyou]

Roger Christian, Tony Asher, Van Dyke Parks, and Jack Reiley are lucky men. Apparently Brian's "shakiness", mental illness, and auditory illusions that kept him from correcting songwriting credits were only present when it applied to Mike Love.

My apologies if this has been mentioned and I missed it:
Wasn't VDP omitted from some credits he was due on Smiley Smile?  It was brought up with Brian and Melinda during the BWPS era I believe.

I'm not familiar with the interview you alluded to, but the songs on Smiley Smile that Van Dyke Parks is NOT credited on are:

- "Good Vibrations"
- "With Me Tonight"
- "Whistle In"
- "Wind Chimes"
- "Fall Breaks And Back To Winter"
- "Little Pad"
- "Gettin' Hungry"

I don't know, did VDP write any of the lyrics on those songs?

VDP isn't credited on Smiley Smile for "Wind Chimes," but he is on both Brian Wilson Presents Smile and The Smile Sessions.  Since the lyrics are identical on all three versions, he was either omitted from the credits on Smiley or incorrectly given credit on BWPS and TSS.

[Cam Mott]

Roger Christian, Tony Asher, Van Dyke Parks, and Jack Reiley are lucky men. Apparently Brian's "shakiness", mental illness, and auditory illusions that kept him from correcting songwriting credits were only present when it applied to Mike Love.

My apologies if this has been mentioned and I missed it:
Wasn't VDP omitted from some credits he was due on Smiley Smile?  It was brought up with Brian and Melinda during the BWPS era I believe.

Wasn't it off of Wonderful.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Roger Christian, Tony Asher, Van Dyke Parks, and Jack Reiley are lucky men. Apparently Brian's "shakiness", mental illness, and auditory illusions that kept him from correcting songwriting credits were only present when it applied to Mike Love.

My apologies if this has been mentioned and I missed it:
Wasn't VDP omitted from some credits he was due on Smiley Smile?  It was brought up with Brian and Melinda during the BWPS era I believe.

I'm not familiar with the interview you alluded to, but the songs on Smiley Smile that Van Dyke Parks is NOT credited on are:

- "Good Vibrations"
- "With Me Tonight"
- "Whistle In"
- "Wind Chimes"
- "Fall Breaks And Back To Winter"
- "Little Pad"
- "Gettin' Hungry"

I don't know, did VDP write any of the lyrics on those songs?

VDP isn't credited on Smiley Smile for "Wind Chimes," but he is on both Brian Wilson Presents Smile and The Smile Sessions.  Since the lyrics are identical on all three versions, he was either omitted from the credits on Smiley or incorrectly given credit on BWPS and TSS.

and he was omitted from Mama Says on Wild Honey yet credited for it on SMILE.....

Wild Honey also says "STEREO" on the back cover, so who the F knows?

[Cam Mott]

Roger Christian, Tony Asher, Van Dyke Parks, and Jack Reiley are lucky men. Apparently Brian's "shakiness", mental illness, and auditory illusions that kept him from correcting songwriting credits were only present when it applied to Mike Love.

My apologies if this has been mentioned and I missed it:
Wasn't VDP omitted from some credits he was due on Smiley Smile?  It was brought up with Brian and Melinda during the BWPS era I believe.

I'm not familiar with the interview you alluded to, but the songs on Smiley Smile that Van Dyke Parks is NOT credited on are:

- "Good Vibrations"
- "With Me Tonight"
- "Whistle In"
- "Wind Chimes"
- "Fall Breaks And Back To Winter"
- "Little Pad"
- "Gettin' Hungry"

I don't know, did VDP write any of the lyrics on those songs?

VDP isn't credited on Smiley Smile for "Wind Chimes," but he is on both Brian Wilson Presents Smile and The Smile Sessions.  Since the lyrics are identical on all three versions, he was either omitted from the credits on Smiley or incorrectly given credit on BWPS and TSS.

Oh yeah, Windchimes. The other W song.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Roger Christian, Tony Asher, Van Dyke Parks, and Jack Reiley are lucky men. Apparently Brian's "shakiness", mental illness, and auditory illusions that kept him from correcting songwriting credits were only present when it applied to Mike Love.

My apologies if this has been mentioned and I missed it:
Wasn't VDP omitted from some credits he was due on Smiley Smile?  It was brought up with Brian and Melinda during the BWPS era I believe.

I'd argue this was the case with Mama Says on Wild Honey.


And Cam, this is YOUR wild, baseless theory. It's up to you to prove it. You email VDP. I will not do your grunt work for you, and with your history I bet even if VDP confirmed what everyone but you already knows, you'd still deny it.

As opposed to your baseless theory. You're the one who thinks he has to be the author, I'm not gonna do your grunt work. I ready to continue to disagree, if somebody comes up with something more definitive than the publishing (and your baseless theories) we can have another go at it.

I'm not the one who brought up the idea of contacting him--you are. My theories are not baseless, your all-encompassing Mike Love Appologism has made you delusional. You are the one challenging the DOCUMENTED FACTS. Period. End of conversation (unless you *prove* me wrong. with actual facts.)

This isn't a debate for us to "have a go at." This is you blatantly making stories up and using them to justify a slanderous lie. I will not entertain your ramblings on the matter any further.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Roger Christian, Tony Asher, Van Dyke Parks, and Jack Reiley are lucky men. Apparently Brian's "shakiness", mental illness, and auditory illusions that kept him from correcting songwriting credits were only present when it applied to Mike Love.

My apologies if this has been mentioned and I missed it:
Wasn't VDP omitted from some credits he was due on Smiley Smile?  It was brought up with Brian and Melinda during the BWPS era I believe.

I'd argue this was the case with Mama Says on Wild Honey.


And Cam, this is YOUR wild, baseless theory. It's up to you to prove it. You email VDP. I will not do your grunt work for you, and with your history I bet even if VDP confirmed what everyone but you already knows, you'd still deny it.

As opposed to your baseless theory. You're the one who thinks he has to be the author, I'm not gonna do your grunt work. I ready to continue to disagree, if somebody comes up with something more definitive than the publishing (and your baseless theories) we can have another go at it.

I'm not the one who brought up the idea of contacting him--you are. My theories are not baseless, your all-encompassing Mike Love Appologism has made you delusional. You are the one challenging the DOCUMENTED FACTS. Period. End of conversation (unless you *prove* me wrong. with actual facts.)

This isn't a debate for us to "have a go at." This is you blatantly making stories up and using them to justify a slanderous lie. I will not entertain your ramblings on the matter any further.

Is anyone calling you a Tony Asher cheerleader or apologist? or a VDP cheerleader or apologist? Or even a Brianista? ... No, they are not!

The fact that you stoop to such attempts at insulting us that way just shows your belief that disliking Mike and all the delusions that seem to go along with such a mindset are to be taken for granted as some unassailable position rather than typical human pettiness.... No one is asking you to like Mike, but when you push around opinions as scientific proof of something: it should be questioned..... And if you can't handle such questions without resorting to insults, maybe you should consider your motivations for demanding that Mike's credit for WIBN is undeserved etc etc etc.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

New topic should be "Should VDP be awarded songwriting credit, percentage for Kokomo"?

So it's ok for Mike to get equal credit for a one line improv but VDP shouldnt get any for the SMiLE fragments he and Brian collaborated on? Why not just drop all pretense of objectivity and admit you're his unofficial cheerleader already? Seriously, the stuff you and Cam are saying in this and other threads is so biased it's laughable.  

Did I say anything to that effect? No I have not!

If VDP wrote the words to Mama Says or whatever else, and Mike wrote no lyrics, then hell-no: Mike doesn't deserve credit! But we don't exactly know the why's or how's yet.

The Kokomo thing is a joke regarding the fact that VDP plays accordion on the track.

Once again: Mike's WIBN contribution being  "insignificant" because it was a "one line improv" (two lines actually) is merely your opinion (and an opinion a jury disagreed with). His words and vocal regarding this contribution made the final cut and is forever on the amazing track. THAT is fact, not opinion. Credit is not unjust. Get over it.

I hardly think my opinion or Cam's have much to do with Mike.... YOUR opinions seem to have everything to do with him though ...... Be it Mike or anyone else: when someone tries to deride their contributions to something, and this derision rings false, I'll stand up for whoever it is.

You're implying that there is growing interest or discussion of VDP suing Brian. Not so. But if VDP ever challenges that author credit, I think Mike should be appologetic to him and immediately relinquish his erroneously credited authorship. Having dealt the such an issue all his life, I'd expect Mr. Love to be empathetic, wouldnt you agree?

Since this Mama Says non-issue is being discussed, how was I supposed to immediately assume you meant Kokomo? But if VDP added a one line riff that's "on the record" I hope you would support his claim for an authorship there as well.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

New topic should be "Should VDP be awarded songwriting credit, percentage for Kokomo"?

So it's ok for Mike to get equal credit for a one line improv but VDP shouldnt get any for the SMiLE fragments he and Brian collaborated on? Why not just drop all pretense of objectivity and admit you're his unofficial cheerleader already? Seriously, the stuff you and Cam are saying in this and other threads is so biased it's laughable.  

Did I say anything to that effect? No I have not!

If VDP wrote the words to Mama Says or whatever else, and Mike wrote no lyrics, then hell-no: Mike doesn't deserve credit! But we don't exactly know the why's or how's yet.

The Kokomo thing is a joke regarding the fact that VDP plays accordion on the track.

Once again: Mike's WIBN contribution being  "insignificant" because it was a "one line improv" (two lines actually) is merely your opinion (and an opinion a jury disagreed with). His words and vocal regarding this contribution made the final cut and is forever on the amazing track. THAT is fact, not opinion. Credit is not unjust. Get over it.

I hardly think my opinion or Cam's have much to do with Mike.... YOUR opinions seem to have everything to do with him though ...... Be it Mike or anyone else: when someone tries to deride their contributions to something, and this derision rings false, I'll stand up for whoever it is.

You're implying that there is growing interest or discussion of VDP suing Brian. Not so. But if VDP ever challenges that author credit, I think Mike should be appologetic to him and immediately relinquish his erroneously credited authorship. Having dealt the such an issue all his life, I'd expect Mr. Love to be empathetic, wouldnt you agree?

Since this Mama Says non-issue is being discussed, how was I supposed to immediately assume you meant Kokomo? But if VDP added a one line riff that's "on the record" I hope you would support his claim for an authorship there as well.

 ..... You would discern that I was talking about Kokomo because I said ...... KOKOMO! Jeez!

And what erroneously crafted credit? How do we even know Mike had a damn thing to do with it? And until someone asks either Brian, VDP, or Mike, we really don't know jack s*hit!

And if it turns out VDP wrote two lines for Kokomo and wants credit, I'd say: YES give it to him!

You keep wanting to force this into an example of Mike-Loving in order to confirm your opinion as fact. Cheap tactic.

Speaking of credit: who's pissed Manson didn't get credit for Never Learn Not To Love??

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Roger Christian, Tony Asher, Van Dyke Parks, and Jack Reiley are lucky men. Apparently Brian's "shakiness", mental illness, and auditory illusions that kept him from correcting songwriting credits were only present when it applied to Mike Love.

My apologies if this has been mentioned and I missed it:
Wasn't VDP omitted from some credits he was due on Smiley Smile?  It was brought up with Brian and Melinda during the BWPS era I believe.

I'd argue this was the case with Mama Says on Wild Honey.


And Cam, this is YOUR wild, baseless theory. It's up to you to prove it. You email VDP. I will not do your grunt work for you, and with your history I bet even if VDP confirmed what everyone but you already knows, you'd still deny it.

As opposed to your baseless theory. You're the one who thinks he has to be the author, I'm not gonna do your grunt work. I ready to continue to disagree, if somebody comes up with something more definitive than the publishing (and your baseless theories) we can have another go at it.

I'm not the one who brought up the idea of contacting him--you are. My theories are not baseless, your all-encompassing Mike Love Appologism has made you delusional. You are the one challenging the DOCUMENTED FACTS. Period. End of conversation (unless you *prove* me wrong. with actual facts.)

This isn't a debate for us to "have a go at." This is you blatantly making stories up and using them to justify a slanderous lie. I will not entertain your ramblings on the matter any further.

Is anyone calling you a Tony Asher cheerleader or apologist? or a VDP cheerleader or apologist? Or even a Brianista? ... No, they are not!

The fact that you stoop to such attempts at insulting us that way just shows your belief that disliking Mike and all the delusions that seem to go along with such a mindset are to be taken for granted as some unassailable position rather than typical human pettiness.... No one is asking you to like Mike, but when you push around opinions as scientific proof of something: it should be questioned..... And if you can't handle such questions without resorting to insults, maybe you should consider your motivations for demanding that Mike's credit for WIBN is undeserved etc etc etc.

The day I unjustly make up a lie to build up Tony or VDP at Mike's expense (Like Tony being the true author of Good Vibrations or VDP the collaborator for Gettin Hungry) is the day I'm an appologist for them. The day I accuse posters that fairly criticize TA/VDP of being haters is the day I stoop to your level. The day I play the guilt card (Boo Hoo, TA/VDP work so hard! say nice things about them too!) whenever someone has the 'audacity' to compliment someone else's work instead, that's the day I give you all permission to dismiss me as I have done to yours and Cam's nonsense. Do you have any self awareness at all?

[Cam Mott]

Roger Christian, Tony Asher, Van Dyke Parks, and Jack Reiley are lucky men. Apparently Brian's "shakiness", mental illness, and auditory illusions that kept him from correcting songwriting credits were only present when it applied to Mike Love.

My apologies if this has been mentioned and I missed it:
Wasn't VDP omitted from some credits he was due on Smiley Smile?  It was brought up with Brian and Melinda during the BWPS era I believe.

I'd argue this was the case with Mama Says on Wild Honey.


And Cam, this is YOUR wild, baseless theory. It's up to you to prove it. You email VDP. I will not do your grunt work for you, and with your history I bet even if VDP confirmed what everyone but you already knows, you'd still deny it.

As opposed to your baseless theory. You're the one who thinks he has to be the author, I'm not gonna do your grunt work. I ready to continue to disagree, if somebody comes up with something more definitive than the publishing (and your baseless theories) we can have another go at it.

I'm not the one who brought up the idea of contacting him--you are. My theories are not baseless, your all-encompassing Mike Love Appologism has made you delusional. You are the one challenging the DOCUMENTED FACTS. Period. End of conversation (unless you *prove* me wrong. with actual facts.)

This isn't a debate for us to "have a go at." This is you blatantly making stories up and using them to justify a slanderous lie. I will not entertain your ramblings on the matter any further.

We will continue to disagree then until you get more credible evidence than the publishing.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

New topic should be "Should VDP be awarded songwriting credit, percentage for Kokomo"?

So it's ok for Mike to get equal credit for a one line improv but VDP shouldnt get any for the SMiLE fragments he and Brian collaborated on? Why not just drop all pretense of objectivity and admit you're his unofficial cheerleader already? Seriously, the stuff you and Cam are saying in this and other threads is so biased it's laughable.  

Did I say anything to that effect? No I have not!

If VDP wrote the words to Mama Says or whatever else, and Mike wrote no lyrics, then hell-no: Mike doesn't deserve credit! But we don't exactly know the why's or how's yet.

The Kokomo thing is a joke regarding the fact that VDP plays accordion on the track.

Once again: Mike's WIBN contribution being  "insignificant" because it was a "one line improv" (two lines actually) is merely your opinion (and an opinion a jury disagreed with). His words and vocal regarding this contribution made the final cut and is forever on the amazing track. THAT is fact, not opinion. Credit is not unjust. Get over it.

I hardly think my opinion or Cam's have much to do with Mike.... YOUR opinions seem to have everything to do with him though ...... Be it Mike or anyone else: when someone tries to deride their contributions to something, and this derision rings false, I'll stand up for whoever it is.

You're implying that there is growing interest or discussion of VDP suing Brian. Not so. But if VDP ever challenges that author credit, I think Mike should be appologetic to him and immediately relinquish his erroneously credited authorship. Having dealt the such an issue all his life, I'd expect Mr. Love to be empathetic, wouldnt you agree?

Since this Mama Says non-issue is being discussed, how was I supposed to immediately assume you meant Kokomo? But if VDP added a one line riff that's "on the record" I hope you would support his claim for an authorship there as well.

 ..... You would discern that I was talking about Kokomo because I said ...... KOKOMO! Jeez!

And what erroneously crafted credit? How do we even know Mike had a damn thing to do with it? And until someone asks either Brian, VDP, or Mike, we really don't know jack s*hit!

And if it turns out VDP wrote two lines for Kokomo and wants credit, I'd say: YES give it to him!

You keep wanting to force this into an example of Mike-Loving in order to confirm your opinion as fact. Cheap tactic.

Speaking of credit: who's pissed Manson didn't get credit for Never Learn Not To Love??

I meant I thought you were implying that the claims for MS were so unjust that giving him credit for Kokomo is where we'd go next. You're the one constantly giving Mike unjust credit for WIBN and now the VT fade irregardless of the facts. Any time I've criticized Mike even slightly you take it personally, you whine for me to sing his praises...what cheap tactic--I'm just calling it as I see it.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Roger Christian, Tony Asher, Van Dyke Parks, and Jack Reiley are lucky men. Apparently Brian's "shakiness", mental illness, and auditory illusions that kept him from correcting songwriting credits were only present when it applied to Mike Love.

My apologies if this has been mentioned and I missed it:
Wasn't VDP omitted from some credits he was due on Smiley Smile?  It was brought up with Brian and Melinda during the BWPS era I believe.

I'd argue this was the case with Mama Says on Wild Honey.


And Cam, this is YOUR wild, baseless theory. It's up to you to prove it. You email VDP. I will not do your grunt work for you, and with your history I bet even if VDP confirmed what everyone but you already knows, you'd still deny it.

As opposed to your baseless theory. You're the one who thinks he has to be the author, I'm not gonna do your grunt work. I ready to continue to disagree, if somebody comes up with something more definitive than the publishing (and your baseless theories) we can have another go at it.

I'm not the one who brought up the idea of contacting him--you are. My theories are not baseless, your all-encompassing Mike Love Appologism has made you delusional. You are the one challenging the DOCUMENTED FACTS. Period. End of conversation (unless you *prove* me wrong. with actual facts.)

This isn't a debate for us to "have a go at." This is you blatantly making stories up and using them to justify a slanderous lie. I will not entertain your ramblings on the matter any further.

Is anyone calling you a Tony Asher cheerleader or apologist? or a VDP cheerleader or apologist? Or even a Brianista? ... No, they are not!

The fact that you stoop to such attempts at insulting us that way just shows your belief that disliking Mike and all the delusions that seem to go along with such a mindset are to be taken for granted as some unassailable position rather than typical human pettiness.... No one is asking you to like Mike, but when you push around opinions as scientific proof of something: it should be questioned..... And if you can't handle such questions without resorting to insults, maybe you should consider your motivations for demanding that Mike's credit for WIBN is undeserved etc etc etc.

The day I unjustly make up a lie to build up Tony or VDP at Mike's expense (Like Tony being the true author of Good Vibrations or VDP the collaborator for Gettin Hungry) is the day I'm an appologist for them. The day I accuse posters that fairly criticize TA/VDP of being haters is the day I stoop to your level. The day I play the guilt card (Boo Hoo, TA/VDP work so hard! say nice things about them too!) whenever someone has the 'audacity' to compliment someone else's work instead, that's the day I give you all permission to dismiss me as I have done to yours and Cam's nonsense. Do you have any self awareness at all?

WHO is tying to build up Mike at Tony or VDP's expense? And what have those guys had to suffer because of any of this???

You like them, you dislike Mike: OK, we get that part, but it still doesn't answer the question.

No matter how you like it or do not like it: Mike contributed to WIBN! This shouldn't even be an issue. It is neither and insult to Tony Asher or anyone else that the public (the small segment who could actually give a damn) now knows that Mike wrote the coda.... You got to consider also, the fact that Tony Asher knew this all along yet still took credit for those words.... But, hey, he's a helpless victim here, so we'll let it slide...

As for Mama Says, we don't know enough.... Maybe, just maybe Brian told Mike "Yeah, yeah! You'll do all the lyrics for this next album" ..... So, they go write a bunch of songs and then Brian slaps Mama Says on there at the end on a last minute whim..... Now he's scared and doesn't know what to do credit/wise, so he just lets it go and some penny pusher does the rest...... Pure baseless speculation, I admit..... Any other  ideas?

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Roger Christian, Tony Asher, Van Dyke Parks, and Jack Reiley are lucky men. Apparently Brian's "shakiness", mental illness, and auditory illusions that kept him from correcting songwriting credits were only present when it applied to Mike Love.

My apologies if this has been mentioned and I missed it:
Wasn't VDP omitted from some credits he was due on Smiley Smile?  It was brought up with Brian and Melinda during the BWPS era I believe.

I'd argue this was the case with Mama Says on Wild Honey.


And Cam, this is YOUR wild, baseless theory. It's up to you to prove it. You email VDP. I will not do your grunt work for you, and with your history I bet even if VDP confirmed what everyone but you already knows, you'd still deny it.

As opposed to your baseless theory. You're the one who thinks he has to be the author, I'm not gonna do your grunt work. I ready to continue to disagree, if somebody comes up with something more definitive than the publishing (and your baseless theories) we can have another go at it.

I'm not the one who brought up the idea of contacting him--you are. My theories are not baseless, your all-encompassing Mike Love Appologism has made you delusional. You are the one challenging the DOCUMENTED FACTS. Period. End of conversation (unless you *prove* me wrong. with actual facts.)

This isn't a debate for us to "have a go at." This is you blatantly making stories up and using them to justify a slanderous lie. I will not entertain your ramblings on the matter any further.

We will continue to disagree then until you get more credible evidence than the publishing.

^Thanks for ignoring half of my argument and thus proving my point. You are not worth the time it takes to reply to you. That's not a personal attack. That's my reaction to someone who cannot discuss something intelligently, form thoughtful counter-arguments and resorts to ignoring logical rebuttals to his fantastic lies.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

New topic should be "Should VDP be awarded songwriting credit, percentage for Kokomo"?

So it's ok for Mike to get equal credit for a one line improv but VDP shouldnt get any for the SMiLE fragments he and Brian collaborated on? Why not just drop all pretense of objectivity and admit you're his unofficial cheerleader already? Seriously, the stuff you and Cam are saying in this and other threads is so biased it's laughable.  

Did I say anything to that effect? No I have not!

If VDP wrote the words to Mama Says or whatever else, and Mike wrote no lyrics, then hell-no: Mike doesn't deserve credit! But we don't exactly know the why's or how's yet.

The Kokomo thing is a joke regarding the fact that VDP plays accordion on the track.

Once again: Mike's WIBN contribution being  "insignificant" because it was a "one line improv" (two lines actually) is merely your opinion (and an opinion a jury disagreed with). His words and vocal regarding this contribution made the final cut and is forever on the amazing track. THAT is fact, not opinion. Credit is not unjust. Get over it.

I hardly think my opinion or Cam's have much to do with Mike.... YOUR opinions seem to have everything to do with him though ...... Be it Mike or anyone else: when someone tries to deride their contributions to something, and this derision rings false, I'll stand up for whoever it is.

You're implying that there is growing interest or discussion of VDP suing Brian. Not so. But if VDP ever challenges that author credit, I think Mike should be appologetic to him and immediately relinquish his erroneously credited authorship. Having dealt the such an issue all his life, I'd expect Mr. Love to be empathetic, wouldnt you agree?

Since this Mama Says non-issue is being discussed, how was I supposed to immediately assume you meant Kokomo? But if VDP added a one line riff that's "on the record" I hope you would support his claim for an authorship there as well.

 ..... You would discern that I was talking about Kokomo because I said ...... KOKOMO! Jeez!

And what erroneously crafted credit? How do we even know Mike had a damn thing to do with it? And until someone asks either Brian, VDP, or Mike, we really don't know jack s*hit!

And if it turns out VDP wrote two lines for Kokomo and wants credit, I'd say: YES give it to him!

You keep wanting to force this into an example of Mike-Loving in order to confirm your opinion as fact. Cheap tactic.

Speaking of credit: who's pissed Manson didn't get credit for Never Learn Not To Love??

I meant I thought you were implying that the claims for MS were so unjust that giving him credit for Kokomo is where we'd go next. You're the one constantly giving Mike unjust credit for WIBN and now the VT fade irregardless of the facts. Any time I've criticized Mike even slightly you take it personally, you whine for me to sing his praises...what cheap tactic--I'm just calling it as I see it.

Unjust credit for WIBN?

I didn't give Mike this credit, mind you. A jury did!

I've explained how it's a just credit. Please explain how it is unjust.